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OU CCAT- 3rd Edition VOTING DISCUSSION SEE #157

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Electrolyte, Oct 1, 2012.

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  1. Bl1tzkri3g

    Bl1tzkri3g

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    1. Bubbly's Quick Stall
    2. Lavos Sun Stall
    3. ThisMysteriousGuy's Gravity
  2. ace combat

    ace combat

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    1. Lavos Spawn's sun stall
  3. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    Gonna do me some voting now.

    1. Thismysteriousguy's offensive gravity
    2. Katakiri's Rain Dance Offense
    3. Tempv1's phazing
  4. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    1. Jimbon Hail Offense
    2. Lavos Sun Stall
  5. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
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    (trimmed and made nicer by ginganinja)

    Electrolyte has permitted me to post this, so please don't follow my example unless he explicitly states that you can do so. Thanks.

    I'm having a hard time grasping why exactly the community wants to run sun stall. Let me dig out the justification for why exactly this has even been proposed:

    I have absolutely no problems with Lavos Spawn, and I like to think that we're friends. However, this nomination was made without any testing, though I guess part of the premise of this nomination was that sun stall is an underused strategy (and I emphasize underused because I believe that this term should only apply when something deserves more usage; sun stall by no means deserves any). Prince Brian pointed out the biggest dilemma with sun stall: there is basically a group of 15 viable Pokemon (and I use the term "viable" loosely) that you can even use on sun stall. On top of this, there are several roles that are required on the team. A spinner is necessary, and only Tentacruel and Forretress work well on stall (don't even consider Donphan, it just makes the team weaker to Water moves without bringing much to the equation other than Ice Shard). You're limited to using Heatran to absorb Fire-type moves, as otherwise, you're just going to be wrecked by teams with opposing offensive Heatran, and it's just worse if they pack Spikes support. Jumpluff is pretty bad in itself, and Cresselia, while it is actually quite decent in this metagame, is terrible against rain. Guess who the number one Pokemon was. Politoed.

    Ninetales is arguably the worst Pokemon of the bunch. What the hell is Ninetales doing to the opposing team other than maybe using Toxic or Will-O-Wisp? Absolutely nothing (a lot of teams carry Heatran or something that can set up on Ninetales anyways).

    There is almost no way sun stall will match up well against most of the metagame, especially with Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus-I, and all the other threats that the new metagame brought that sun stall has no business attempting to deal with. Dugtrio + Genesect teams remove Heatran and basically ruin the team, and there are many other matchups that can be exploited. Please reconsider.
  6. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    While I too consider good sir Harsha my friend, I must disagree with him on all the bs he just posted above me.

    Sun stall is an extremely diverse playstyle that is only limited by misguided players' perceptions of the style itself. Harsha, you're not correct in saying that Sun stall requires a spinner, because I have made perfectly good Sun stall teams with Xatu before, and Espeon could probably work as well. Besides, all stall teams need some form of removing hazards, so this isn't a very unique disadvantage.

    Heatran is also unnecessary, all the Sun stall teams I've ever made don't have Heatran on them and they function just fine without him. Nobody uses Jumpluff. Cresselia isn't necessary either, though most of my Sun stall teams have it because it's so damn bulky.

    Ninetales sucks as a weather starter, yes, but it performs a valuable role for Sun stall in being able to both spread status AND phaze, something that Skarmory nor Chansey/Blissey can do.

    All the "threats" you list to Sun stall, any decent Sun stall team can easily deal with. Tornadus-T? Chansey (yes it walls it) and Cress take care of it. Keldeo? Meet Psyshock Cresselia and/or phazing Dragonite. Terrakion? LolCresselia (or Skarm or Quagsire or Sableye). Landorus-I? Special variants lose to Chansey, physical variants lose to Cress/Skarm/Quag/Sab. Sun stall kicks this metagame's ass, quite frankly. I tested a team of mine on Showdown (can't reveal due to upcoming BW2 tour), but it hasn't lost yet and I'm 41 games deep.

    Please reconsider again, because Harsha is sort of misguided in posting such a harsh criticism of Sun stall.
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I'll be your light, your match, your burning sun
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    Ok, it is obvious that Bubbly's Quick Stall and Lavos Spawn's Sun Stall are our two front runners. Congratulations to both of you!

    Because of this controversy, I've resolved to do something a little different. Instead of holding just one community vote, I'm going to add one more. This topic is too important, and I would like to have some discussion take place instead of like the last vote. After a bit more discussion, I'll hold the final voting.

    RULES FOR DISCUSSION:
    1. Please please please support your case with facts. We're not here to listen to you say that you like Sun Stall but don't know why. The point of this discussion is for experienced users to bring up what they know so that those who don't really know how these two strategies work have a clearer idea.
    2. Do not think that you can not change your stance. If you are on the verge, and swayed by someone's post, you are more than welcome to change your vote. However, do not vote yet. After this final discussion ends, (I'll give it 2-3 days) I'll host the final cote, where people can re-vote.
    3. Only discuss Sun Stall and Quick Stall. Sorry to everyone else, but right now we aim to zone in on which one the community thinks is worth looking into more. There will be future opportunities to participate, so don't worry!

    Here are some things to talk about:
    Why do you think (insert preferred style) is better?
    Which one is easier to make?
    Which one brings more unexplored ideas and pokemon to the table?
    Which one has been used before and how?
    What can we learn from each one?


    I'll give this discussion 2-3 days. Please stay on topic and post truthful, smart comments. Get discussing!
  8. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Well I'd just like to say that while sun stall is certainly under utilized quick stall is definitely the more unexplored area. Despite being part of the on site analysis of ubers stall plenty of people in this thread did not know what it even was. For this reason I think it would be very helpful for the community as a whole to make the first step exploring this playstyle together. In addition to this Quick stall has absolutely no prerequisites regarding pokemon, while there may be a small pool of pokemon viable for quick stall none of them are mandatory. Also because this playstyle has not been seen/mentioned outside Ubers it would help bridge a gap and better understand the differences between the two metagames.

    I had spoke with Lavos about Sun stall and while I do think it is a potent playstyle and I wish to retract my previous statements about it being very template heavy I still think it is somewhat unfit for this project. Based on what we discussed the role of the sun in sun stall has very little impact on your own team and is more about the ability to nerf the powerful rain and sand sweepers such as keldeo and tornadus. For that reason I feel there would less exploration of new ideas and the team would rather end up a standard stall team except with tales added for the sake of countering other weather, not a sun stall team but a stall team which just happens to have sun to make therians cry.
  9. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    Thank you Electrolyte for allowing further discussion, because as of now I think it is very necessary.

    Firstly Harsha I'd like to point out a few things, I know you are a much more experienced player than myself, but I think I have some valid points which you should consider.

    Just for reference, everything Bolded are the main points I will be addressing, as these are the flaws in the argument.

    ***NOTE: There is a seriously large essay below, so read at your own risk. I have broken it into sections, so if you wish to find a specific argument just look for the corresponding title.***

    Ridiculously big essay (open)

    1. There has been no testing done.
    There was actually testing done with Sun Stall, I know for a fact that Lavos reached #1 on the PO ladder not too long before PS! became the primary Simulator, and while that was before the days of BW2 it shows that this team type can be effective. Obviously now with all the new Rain threats on steroids (Keldeo, Genesect & Therians), Sun Stall may seem very unviable in this current metagame, but thats wrong. We all know that Lavos is a good, and established player and team builder, so there may be a lot of people thinking that just because he can do it doesn't mean that the community can, and that perhaps it would be him leading the project, with the majority of the community blindly following. That too is wrong. While I am a relatively unknown player, I have recently made a Sun Stall team, and had great success with it, against almost every style of team in the current metagame, that includes all those Rain Offense teams. As I have played the team across numerous alts, I do not have a top 10 ladder ranking to back this up currently, but I promise you I am not speaking with nothing to back me up. If I can build an effective Sun Stall team, I think that the community will be able to quite easily. To extrapolate on that; I am a much more offensively minded player, and I feel a lot more comfortable with teamstyles such as HO, I really don't like slow matches with weaker offensive Pokes, however when I saw the discussion in this thread I wanted to see if I could come up with an effective Sun Stall, and I did.

    2. Sun Stall is not worthy of usage.
    You say that you believe underused should only apply to strategies that deserve more usage, and that Sun Stall does not deserve more usage. How exactly does that work? It is a viable strategy just like any other, granted their may be a stigma about it that only very high level players can use it well, but I'm no high level player, and I have both made, and used one well. I think that it is sort of unfair for any one group to be able to determine exactly what types of teams 'deserve' more usage, I think people should be allowed to use whatever they want without having to justify it to the world. Unless of course they wish to get into discussion as to why the team is actually good, then they would obviously be required to give further details and information. I believe that over the past few pages of this thread Lavos, and others, have done quite a good job of that.

    3. There are only 15 viable Pokemon.
    The next point I will address is what was said in regards to there being "only 15 viable Pokemon for this team type". That is quite far from the truth. I will admit that at first that is exactly what I believed, although when building and testing my Sun Stall team, I found there was a plethora of options, and not just mediocre ones, good options. You have obviously got to have Ninetales, as that is the whole premise of the team, an then because its a Stall team you obviously need your dedicated walls, Hazards and Spin Blocker. However thats where the musts stop. Yes the vast majority of successful Stall teams also have Spinners, Clerks and Phazers, but those aren't mandatory for success. Personally I am using a Clerk alongside a Spinner and a few Phazers, as I feel that it gives me the optimum chances for success, but I was limited to my own company when making my team, so I believe that as a community we could easily find ways around the aforementioned 'roles' if we so chose. Include to that, the fact that at the designated potions there are a variety of Pokes that can fill it well. Obviously there are those that will be considered superior for certain positions, but my involvement in recent community projects such as the Dark Horse Project, and Counter This Pokemon project, have taught me to never underestimate the creative potential of a collective such as the Smogon community, and by saying that you are limited to any number of Pokes, is doing just that.

    4. You must use certain Pokemon.
    I would strongly recommend that a Spinner be used, but it isn't mandatory as you said earlier, and while Tentacruel and Forretress are possibly the best suited Spinners for a Sun Stall, there are others to be considered. You have said that using Donphan will compound a weakness to Water, which when facing Rain teams could be a serious problem, but I have to disagree on that. I am not being Naïve in believing that just because Sun halves the power of Water moves, that it eliminates the weakness, I am stating that it isn't necessarily enough of a deterant to not want to use Donphan at all. I'll address the weakness to water separately now. Looking at my Sun Stall team, I have one member weak to Water. Want to take a guess what that is? Granted this is only one example of a Sun Stall team, however it showcases that not all Sun Stall teams will have a predisposition to be at a disadvantage against Rain Teams. Because this is a community project, we will definitely be hearing all sorts of unique ideas and thoughts on things such as the roles that will need to be filled, the Pokemon to fill those roles, and then the movesets those Pokemon will have. This means that we will potentially see some very unconventional sets, that are incredibly effective. Participating in the Dark Horse Project taught me that quite well.

    5. You are forced to use Heatran.
    Now as far as being forced to use Heatran, that is also really in the opposite direction of correct. Heatran is an incredibly useful asset to a Sun Stall as it can Phaze, it can Status and it can set up Rocks. However it too is not mandatory, I know that it isn't on my team, and I am never left wanting for it. For having a weakness to Fire, I only have one Fire weakness on my team, and that is on the mandatory Steel type that no Stall team should be without. But as I mentioned earlier, just because something should be, does not mean it has to be, and in a community project such as this, I think that must be kept in mind at all times. It is true that if Sun Stall comes up against an offensive Heatran, or any Heatran for that matter, it can have serious problems. The first time I came up against a Heatran I was completely at a loss for ideas, and thought it would just tear apart my team. Then I decided to look at what resources I had available to me. As a note, the most powerful offensive move on my team is Ninetales' Flamthrower coming off 0 Satk EVs, so it's not like I'll be punching holes in anything any time soon. Through intelligent play, and full utilization of the assets the team had, I aptly dealt with Heatran, and the remainder of the team. Since then, I have known how to deal with Heatrans and have done so ever since. I think that speaks wonders for how versatile a Sun Stall team can be, and that there are always hidden gems in the rough, one just needs to understand which tools o use and how to use them to attain said gems.

    6. Jumpluff is useless.
    I agree with you Harsha in that Jumpluff is pretty useless. When creating my team I spent a grand total of two minutes deciding that it wasn't going to work. As we all know a Stall team requires each of the members to pull its own weight, and outside being an annoying little dandelion, Jumpluff doesn't really do much. As such, it really isn't the best fit for a Sun Stall team, however I am sure that if the community wanted to use one we could find a way to do so effectively. That leads me into my next rebut; Ninetales being useless.

    7. Ninetales is horrible, and Cresselia fails against Rain teams.
    I can in no way fight that Ninetales is almost dead weight on a Sun Stall team, however it isn't entirely useless. It is beaten 1 on 1 by the other weather inducers, and it lacks any truly decent stats, however it can still be used well. For it to be successful on a Sun Stall it is generally best to run a Specially Defensive set, as that can utilize what defenses Ninetales does have, along with its sightly above average support movepool. It was already mentioned that Ninetales can both induce status' and Phaze, which is quite a useful paring on a Pokemon for any type of Stall team, so while not amazing at it, Ninetales can help the team with more than just never-ending sun.
    Whilst on the issue of Pokemon not pulling their weight, I'd like to address Cresselia. Cresselia is the definition of bulky with its 120/120/130 defenses, and it plays the role of a wall incredibly well. While it may have troubles dealing with Rain teams, outside of Rain it is incredibly effective. That said it doesn't become useless as soon as its in Rain, it comes down to what set its running and how well one plays it. In a worse case scenario Cresselia will be able to status, or at least hinder in some way the more threatening members of a Rain team. I will provide a few examples to support this; Example A. A physically defensive Cresselia, so no specially defensive investment, versus the standard 252 Satk LO Tornadus-T. Hurricane deals 40.76 - 48.19%, so provided Cresselia comes in with at least 60% health it can then proceed to potentially status, which can include Thunder Wave crippling Tornadus significantly by taking away its best asset, or hit it with an attack such as Ice Beam to deal a decent amount of damage; 0 Satk Cresselia Ice Beam v 0/0 Naive Tornadus-T: 44.14 - 52.17%, which is a guaranteed 2HKO after Rocks, which will be up on a Stall team. Now if it was a Specially Defensive Cresselia it would be taking those Hurricanes a lot better, although Tornadus would obviously U-Turn out. Genesect can hurt Cresselia with its U-Turns which could be an issue, although Cresselia can happily switch out into whatever the player feels gives them the most options as Genesect will then be able to go into the appropriate counter for the Cresselia switch. So really, Cresselia isn't looking too bad against Rain Teams, both a Specially and Physically Defensive set can cope well enough.

    8. Sun Stall cannot match up with the rest of the metagame.
    The next point I'll address is what you've said about Sun Stall not matching up well against the majority of the metagame. Once again, thats slightly less than true. I have played the metagame, and in the majority of cases I have won with my Sun Stall. Certain teams will obviously require much more thought, and when I get matched against an opponent with superior skill to mine I will not always win, but when I do lose it is not because my team let me down, more that I was just outplayed which I will happily take. You've mentioned the main threats that BW2 brought, and then proceeded to say that Sun Stall has no business attempting to deal with them. Well if you're running Sun Stall and you are faced with those threats, its not like you can say 'well the team isn't designed for them so I won't deal with them', and have them just go away, you will have to do something about it. So far thats what I have been able to do with my Sun Stall, with certain threats there, Landorus-I in particular, I know I lost the first time I played one of those because I didn't know how to deal with it. However after that loss I figured out what needed to be done, and since then I have not lost to one. You can't ever build a team that doesn't have any business against certain threats, because inevitably you will be faced with them eventually.

    9. Genesect & Dugrtio run rampant on Sun Stall.
    The last point I will address in your argument is what you've said about Genesect+Dugtrio ruining Sun Stall once Heatran is gone. Well if you're not running Heatran, what then, you get destroyed outright? Well no that isn't really the case. Lavos' Sun team is becoming less and less common, yet I have faced a few of them recently using my Sun Stall, and a few variations on them, and I don't get outright beaten. Dugtrio doesn't do anything to 4/6 of the members of my team, and if I know that my opponent has a weather other than Sun I won't be bringing Ninetales in until I know its safe from Dugtrio, which basically leaves one member of my team vulnerable to Dugtrio. Genesect can also be dealt with through proper utilization of assets. Bottom line of this point; there is always a way to deal with whatever threats arise provided you have built a strong enough team, and with the community working on it I strongly believe this is possible.

    Summary.
    In summary; I believe that Sun Stall really should not be discounted because it is 'hard' to use or create. I have been able to do so, and there are so many more talented Team Builders and Battlers out there than myself, which means that there is serious potential for this in the community eye. I do not mean to say that you make no valid points Harsha, because you do, although you do make a lot of points which I strongly disagree with, and those are what I have addressed.


    I apologize for the rather large wall of text, however because this stage is obviously the most crucial for this project I feel it is necessary that everyone voting gets to see what the possibilities are, and see all the potentially different angles.

    If anyone has any questions regarding what I've said, or my team, please feel free to PM me and I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.
  10. yee

    yee
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    Sun stall is not a new thing, it's an established playstyle generally known for almost a year, Stunt's laddering with it generally spread the word and even before then it was used. It's very very effective. However you will get destroyed by other sun teams rather consistently, if you're going to act like threats such as Scarf Darmanitan won't take out most of your team on it's own once Tran is gone or that it needs a post much longer than this you aren't helping anyone reach a greater understanding of it. It'll do just fine against other teams barring Sun offense, and that's how its always been.

    Edit- I thought I may as well throw in since I haven't seen it anywhere that Sableye is your 2nd required member if you want to have strong matchups vs other teams- nothing spins on Sableye in sun and it isn't as bothered by Scald. Not using Sableye on Sun stall would be like not using Torn-T on rain.
  11. undisputed

    undisputed
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    Temp V1, you can't expect anyone to read that.

    While I think Quickstall sounds like an interesting idea, I don't think it would be any good.

    I don't think any reasonable player can come into a match with "Offensive Stall Pokemon" and expect to win. BW2 is so highly offensive and fast paced already that I don't think a defensive play style can afford to sacrifice sheer walling power. Honestly, there are so many powerful, fast pokemon out there that you're going to die before you can "quick stall" someone.

    I've seen a lot of concerning mentions of Wobbuffet too. Just to be clear, Wobbufett is really bad. It maybe gets one KO at maximum if you're lucky. The only team that can really utilize Wobbuffett is a Sun Offense team.

    Although Sun Stall is a bit one dimensional, I still have to advocate it. QuickStall sounds tough to build, hard to play, and like a recipe to lose. If nothing else, the ladder is not conducive to QuickStall, in my informed opinion.
  12. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    You were right, upon reflection is was really quite unlikely that many people would take the time to read it all, so I've refined it a bit to make finding certain bits of information easier. That way people can take away from it what they specifically want to know, without worrying about spending all day reading.

    I would also certainly agree with what you said in regards to QuickStall, the current meta is not friendly towards it in any way.
  13. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Im actually interesting belief that a sun stall team must run Sableye. To be honest I am skeptical about this claim. It honestly would appear to me that sun stall, after having ninetails swallowed up for a team slot, might be hard pressed to use a spin blocker rather than dealing with other threats. Honestly I am 90% sure that if sun stall is chossen the team might look look like Ninetails / Chansey / Cresselia / Spinner add sableye on that and your left with pretty much only one pokemon to fill in any gaps in synergy. Idk, this is mainly for the later stages of team building, but I am surprised you brought up spin blocking so soon.
  14. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    Well alright then :d

    Aero I see where you are coming from, and it would appear you do have the experience behind what your saying so I can't exactly refute that, however there are some things I would like to know a little more about.

    When you mention it has no control over the weather how exactly does that work? Do you mean that because it doesn't have a trapper that it will always lose the weather war? Or is it because Ninetales is so frail that it will always have to take the passive route and be scared to switch in?

    I think the main appeal of Sun Stall for this project at the moment is that it is something a lot of people have not tried, and as such it could be a great learning experience. Cresselia is nice and all, but you'd be pretty silly to vote for a teamtype just because you like one Pokemon that could potentially get used. This CCAT is also different in that regard, as we are picking the teamstyle first and then moving onto the Pokemon latter. You said that Cresselia is Tyranitar bait, yes Cresselia doesn't exactly like to deal with Tyranitars, so predict the switch and GTFO. On a Stall team, there is no such thing as a free switch in if its being played right, because switching in means you take damage from either Rocks, or Spikes, or if you're unlucky a combination of both. Little hypothetical scenario here; lets say theres 3 layers of Spikes and Rocks up, Tyranitar can have all the free switches in the world onto Cresselia, or any other member of the team which are apparently all 'weak' to Tyranitar, oh wait it dies after 3.

    To your next point that picking 5 mons then Ninetales makes you weak to Tyranitar, if that happens you're doing it wrong, that really shouldn't happen. In a community project like this, that won't happen. Tyranitar has been around long enough that everyone knows how to beat all of its common sets, and god forbid you come across one that wasn't factored it, you should still have the adequate assets to deal with it.

    If you read what I wrote earlier you'll see that Heatran may be an immediate threat, but it is dealt with through intelligent play, and any Stall team can beat it, simply because it doesn't have access to healing outside Rest and Wish support. Yeah it could be a problem if you weren't prepared for it, but I see this project going on for a few weeks and I kinda doubt that threat wouldn't be addressed. It is quite likely that Blissey will be suggested if Sun Stall is elected, and lets look at a few calcs regarding that shall we?
    Lets say Heatran is a Modest Specs set, in the sun Fire Blast deals 52.24 - 61.48% to 252 HP / 4 Sdef Bold Blissey, that means that Blissey can come in to sponge a hit, and to ensure Heatran locks itself into Fire Blast, and then switch into something else to PP stall out the Heatran or just hard counter it, say something with SubProtect. Although lets be realistic here, how often does one see a Specs Heatran? Less than 3% of the time, according to last months statistics, so I'd say we'd be relatively safe. Oh, and against the majority of Heatran that aren't running Modest Specs Fire Blast, I think Blissey or even Chansey for that matter would do just fine. There are however other special walls that could do a similar thing, so the team isn't restricted into having to chose either of those two. So realistically, Heatran's Fire Blast isn't really going to shatter the team.

    I'm sure a lot of Sun Stall has already been thought of, used and retired. However judging from the responses of people thus far in the thread it would appear that the large majority of people do not know exactly all the angles, and looking at the current landscape of PS it would appear the majority there don't know either. That means that Sun Stall is viable for what this project wishes to achieve. Also, I don't really see how Garchomp and Thundurus being banded made dealing with Sun Stall easier, but hey thats getting off topic.

    I would also like you to elaborate a little more on why exactly one cannot build Sun Stall in the same manner you would Weatherless, Sand, Hail or Rain. The same underlying elements can be there if you so wish, and the same elements can not be if that is what you desire.
    Also this line here makes me a little confused; "That's not too say a variation wouldn't work nowadays." Is that referring to Abomasnow or Sun Stall? If its referring to Abomasnow its quite irrelevant as we are only discussing Sun Stall and QuickStall currently, and he is unlikely to feature in either, and if its referring to Sun Stall, then what does this mean? "Sun Stall won't work." So either you've just brought up something quite irrelevant, or you've contradicted yourself, I'd just like a little clarity, call me slow if you want.

    I'm not trying to say that Sun Stall is the newest teamtype that is going to take the metagame by storm because it is so much better than any other type of Stall, because that is by no means true, on either count. I just believe that it has a certain level of anonymity that makes it a really interesting prospect for this project.

    Really all I got out of your post is that you don't like Sun Stall anymore, and that you like to make noise, so can you just clarify a few of those points for me?

    Cheers
  15. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    you can't build sun stall like you would any other style because it sucks

    edit: for the sake of not being infracted, right now the sun model structure provided consists of ninetailes sableye cress and blissey. Add a spiker such as skarmory in there to provide spikes. Then you need a spinner for the 6th. Of course you could use forretress in the 5th spot but forry really struggles in this meta. If you do run forry then you are wrecked by either a) subterra if you have hp ice or b) gliscor if you have gyro ball. Sun stall is just so ba it's unbelievable.

    I don't even know what quickstall is and it sounds better

    Edit2: and I have never heard of stunt's sun stall team so that should give you a pretty good idea of how successful it is
  16. theBEEZ KNEEZ

    theBEEZ KNEEZ

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    I like Quick Stall. Number one, I haven't seen it much in OU, and two, everyone that's faced a Whimsicott or Gilscor knows how annoying this playstyle can be.
  17. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Temp V1, thanks for making a rebuttal in a civil manner. Reading through your post (which does make some good points) made me feel like I didn't elaborate enough in mine as to exactly why the concept is not very good, and I mostly just listed the generalizations. Of course what I say isn't necessarily true for every team, but there is one thing you have to make note of. In BW1, I remember reading a guide to playing stall, and it said you can't cover every Pokemon, but you have to deal with them through proper offensive pressure by aggressively laying hazards and forcing switches. That's basically the premise behind all stall nowadays—you can't cover every single viable threat in this metagame because of its diversity, and I think that everyone should agree here (this isn't to say stall is unviable, I love stall a lot actually).

    Now let's start with Ninetales again. I think I read somewhere in your post that you agree that Ninetales is bad, but that it provides dual status or phazing when necessary. I can't discount that, as it makes the team much, much less weak to Substitute + Calm Mind Latias, as well as threats that try and make a Substitute directly in front of Ninetales. That's definitely helpful. The thing is, you're basically playing with five Pokemon against six if you run into an ever-common Tornadus-T + Dugtrio rain team. Sure, Torandus-T's hits can be sponged by your special wall. Yeah, Dugtrio is not that big of a threat in itself. But Ninetales will not be doing anything noteworthy other than attempting to bait Dugtrio against these archetypes. Ninetales is also setup fodder for many Pokemon, as Lum Berry can ensure that Toxic isn't problematic, while good prediction with Substitute vs Roar will obviously help out if Ninetales attempts to hit a sweeper with status. Yes, that's not an automatic loss, but this is just an illustration. As for my point and MoP's point about Heatran wrecking sun stall, you need to take into account that it won't be spamming Fire moves until it has hazards stacked up. This leads me to your point (and Lavos Spawn's) about blocking hazards.

    Magic Bounce Pokemon all carry a similar trait—they're weak to Tyranitar. Ninetales is also not in for a favorable matchup against Tyranitar, and Cresselia, Chansey, Blissey, or pretty much any Pokemon that's not a physical wall is in for trouble. Of course a stall team will pack a physical wall, but let's look at the options. Gliscor is 2HKOed by Choice Band Tyranitar's Stone Edge provided that there is either a bit of residual damage or Poison Heal is not yet activated. Skarmory faces the same fate with, again, a tiny amount of residual damage. Forretress (who should never be used to wall a threat, you especially need your spinner on a sun stall team) faces this as well. Now you can bring up using Donphan. Donphan as a spinner is something I never really approve of. On sun offense teams (where it is usually found), Donphan compiles a weakness to Choice Specs Politoed and Choice Specs Keldeo, and Venusaur and Dragonite are generally the only Pokemon that resist Water-type attacks; these are shaky counters at best. On sun stall, Donphan does a lot of things that hamper the team. It has no reliable recovery outside of Leftovers and it is not very stable. Wish passing heals it up, okay, but that's not really as reliable as you'd like. However, this isn't really my problem with Donphan, a lot of spinners have the aforementioned problems. My qualm is that it brings a Water-type weakness. Temp V1, while you may only have one Pokemon weak to Water on your sun stall team, how did the rest of your team fare against Choice Specs Politoed? How did it fare against Choice Specs Keldeo? A lot of players find their Chansey and Blissey 2HKOed by Politoed after just a little bit of support, and that's pretty bad news because those are valuable assets.

    Now let's talk about Chansey and Blissey. Both are definitely the epitome of special walling, and you are probably wondering why I said Tornadus-T beats sun stall. Well, on sun stall, our pink friends have to run a moveset of Seismic Toss / Wish / Softboiled / filler. Now keep in mind that Wish + Protect can be used over Softboiled but this method saves up PP. Also, Blissey can run Flamethrower but that's not as consistent as Seismic Toss. The filler is generally Toxic, Stealth Rock, or Heal Bell. If you run Stealth Rock, then that means you should probably be running it on something else instead. Chansey runs Stealth Rock on rain stall because for the most part, you don't want Ferrothorn or Skarmory using it, but I digress. On sun stall, you have Heatran or Landorus-T to do that for you, so let's discount that option. Toxic is definitely great, as it allows you to not be setup fodder. However, I think most people tend to run Heal Bell because it allows them to not have to worry about Cresselia, Ninetales, or whatever Pokemon you are using getting poisoned. Now this means that Tornadus-T can come in, and as MoP said, use Taunt and start firing off powerful attacks. What other Pokemon wants to tank these hits? Rotom-W is a bad choice on sun stall and generally Jirachi is too (though it can work), so Chansey and Blissey are really your only options here. When we take into account that Regenerator heals up Tornadus-T and that Chansey and Blissey can't do much to Tornadus-T in return, this is where an inherent problem lies.

    Temp V1, can you post your sun team? Or is it a secret? I'm actually curious, as you say you've been able to deal with every threat adequately, yet inherently all stall will fall to some threat, be it Calm Mind Reuniclus, Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi, Substitute + Swords Dance Terrakion, Choice Specs Keldeo, Taunt Tornadus-T, etc. Also, what is the point of using Ninetales? Is there no better Pokemon for that slot? Sorry this was so long, I probably left a few things untouched but I didn't mean to. I'm mostly tired of typing so I might as well let you all see my thoughts for now.
  18. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    Well, I may be missing the point of Sun Stall, but I must ask WHY one would use it instead of another type of stall, such as quickstall, and willingly take on the burden of having Ninetails. While Ninetails at least can run Double Status, you could easily run something else to give your team more flexibility, another wall, etc. Sun Stall may not be a bad playstyle, but why use it over others? Is it more effective, or is it just the challenge of using and Sun and stall that make it rewarding?
  19. StairFall

    StairFall

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    I think it's a little unfair to say quick stall doesn't exist when it's part of the on site analysis for ubers stall. The main problem is just that it's often not referred to as such, I ran a team which would fall under the title quick stall for a lot of B/W1. I simply never knew it was called quick stall. It isn't seen much out of ubers and is often compared to something like semistall instead.

    However I'd wish to speak a little more about sun stall. Simply put how much stalling are we planning to do in the sun? Would it be full stall? Semi Stall? Would it utilize a scarfed revenge killer like the ubers variant groudon teams?
  20. peng

    peng

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    QuickStall only exists in dpp ubers because ubers is the only tier with offensively-oriented Pokemon with ridiculous enough bst to run defensive roles whilst still making the entire team look like offense. iirc half the reason to run quickstall was that it looked like offense at first glance so it'd bait your opp into playing as if they were playing vs offense.

    OU doesn't have Taunt Will-o Mewtwo nor does it have anything thats really comparable in terms of bluffing an offensive set whilst having the ability to stall out entire teams.

    quickstall does not exist in any metagame except dpp ubers
  21. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Except it totally exists in BW ubers. Also when using quick stall the point is you're stalling with offensively oriented pokemon. When I say that I don't mean offensive monsters like salamence that run those completely wasteful defensive sets, I mean pokemon that would often be seen as sweepers/all out attackers/utility counters which retain their power but use their speed to harass the opponent at the same time. Subdisable gengar is a perfect example, despite being powerful and dealing decent blows with it's attacks it can easily harass opponents with it's speedy substitute, especially with t spikes.
  22. tehy

    tehy

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    If we're all asking what quickstall is, i'd like to mention sableye. Taunt will-o sable functions a lot like stalltwo in this metagame. Also;recover and rapid spin make starmie a pretty all right stall pokemon, and... it's QUICK! I suppose it can't bluff an offensive set; but on a stall team bluffs are rarely all that important;generally you need to use a pokemon a lot of times. Once it loses the bluff, it had better be effective anyhow. Having a bluff is better than NOT having one; true, but i don't think it's required.

    But yeah; DPP ubers is the main draw, because of stuff like lugia roosting before you crush its soul with an SE move.

    I'd like to reiterate something important about sun stall, and sun in general:

    Sun, like other weathers but much more so, takes lower-tier pokemon and makes them viable in OU. IF, however, sun is not up, then you have a bunch of lower-tier pokemon against a competent OU team. Think about this for a moment. No other weather is like this. Rain takes a lot of pokemon that are already pretty viable (Ferro, tenta, keldeo, tornadus-t, thundurus-T, rotom-W) and buffs them the hell up. Sand gives some boosts to a couple of competitively viable pokemon (Terrakion, sand force landorus), and also has the sand rushers, the only other exhibit of sun-like weather dependence (Stoutland/sandslash). Hail... usually has a bunch of pokemon using blizzard, maybe a stallrein but usually not. The team can still function without hail, albeit worse. Sun? The kingpin is cresselia(Venusaur for offense), who from my recollection was NU before it was banned, and is RU, (Unless it's been banned from there too). You're using a pokemon that most players would RARELY or even NEVER use if sun isn't up. For the record, venusaur was UU last generation, and discounting sun it gained nothing;while the metagame power creeped hard, so i'm guessing that it's probably an RU pokemon, all things considered.


    So whenever you play a sun team, it has to be beastly enough in some way to make up for it- darminitan/victini breaking through bulky resists, venusaur outspeeding everything and having +2/+2. IS sun stall that beastly? I don't find it so, but as we've already established, i run Spdef hippow, shedshell tran, and even recover/rapid spin starmie. MoP doesn't find it so either. But, maybe we're wrong. Just ask yourself:Is it good enough to make up for sun-loss weakness?
  23. alexwolf

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    About Sun Stall and its potential in the CCAT...

    I don't deny that there can be good Sun stall teams, because there are, as yee and others said. And Lavos Spawn, saying that you peaked with a Sun stall team in the ladder doesn't say a lot. The ladder is predictable as fuck, and you can get away with having huge weaknesses to good pokes that are underused in the ladder. An example of this is Scarf Keldeo in rain, which murders so many weatherless HO teams it isn't even funny, but weatherless HO teams can get away with such a weakness because Scarf Keldeo is really underused in the ladder, even though it is a very solid poke.

    But you can't deny that Sun stall is one sided as fuck, even maybe the most one sided playstyle available. No matter what you say if you want to make a good Sun stall team, Ninetales, Sableye, Cresselia and Tentacruel / Forretress are mandatory. Ninetales is obvious and Sableye is one of the main reasons to use Sun stall in the first place, as it can't be beaten by any spinner, which means that your hazards usually are protected, which is a huge plus. Cresselia is also a must. I don't care that you can run a Sun stall team and peak high in the ladder without Cressy, the fact is that without Cresselia you are fucked up by any physical dragon with Fire moves, Hydreigon and other common wallbreakers. Good luck handling Mixmence, mixed Hydreigon, Band Terrakion, SD Garchomp and even classic DD Mence without Cresselia. Hell good luck even beating Mamoswine without it. Yeah Forretress checks it, but it is 3hkoed by EQ, and gets worn down easily, and Skarmory gets 3hkoed by Icicle Crash so again good luck. Oh and Taunt Tornadus-T means huge troubles as well, as it straight up beats Chansey, so you need Cresselia for it too... So in my eyes Cresselia is a must, because you can't name a stall team with such huge weaknesses to the most common way to break stall, wallbreakers, a good stall team.

    Then a spinner is a must, and no Xatu/Espeon are not solutions. How are you going to block Heatran, Terrakion and Landorus-T from laying up SR with those pokes?

    So now you have 2 slots left pretty much. And i would argue that Heatran is a necessity too, otherwise good luck tanking special dragon hits and any kind of Fire attacks. Yeah Chansey can handle special dragons (except from mixed Hydreigon) but it can't handle Heatran in the sun, and any physical attacking fire type.

    So no matter what you do, you will have at best 2 slots to work with, and at worst 1. This if you want to build a good stall team. If you want to build a stall team that can go high in the ladder, build something random that checks the threats that are common high in the ladder, and give the team to a good player and you are set. Does this mean something, other than taking advantage of the situation (the situation is that the ladder is easy as fuck to take advantage of if you know what you are doing) and your skill to achieve something? No.

    Anyway i am done speaking about Sun stall. The point of this project, at least in the last 2 times that i participated, was to explore underused pokes/strategies that have potential while also allowing for flexibility in team building, so that the community has actually some things to discuss about. So what are we going to discuss when picking sun stall? Which should be our last 2 pokes? Yeah how many things we will all learn from this...
  24. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Like I mentioned before the problem with featuring sun stall in the CCAT is the purpose of the sun in the first place. There's not a lot you abuse with the sun. Spinblocking is easier because you nerd the most common spinners and cress gets that 66% moonlight, that's it really. The main point of the sun in sun stall isn't to buff your own team but to nerd others because of how many rain/sand teams are running around. In this respect we wouldn't really be making a sun stall team, we'd be making a standard stall team except perma sun makes keldeo and landorus have a bad day. It's both viable and potentially powerful but it wouldn't help us explore the meta because we wouldn't be capitalizing on the sun, all we'd discover is that rain is super dominant and doesn't like a 50% accurate hurricane/thunder.

    I know quick stall is ill-defined and I know it may be very difficult to construct a team. However it would have the most potential in regards to evaluating the meta. Using a strategy nearly never seen outside ubers would help bridge the gap between the two metas as well as offer more versatility when building a team as a community.
  25. ace combat

    ace combat

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    Although I might be a newer member here, I am probably one of the few that has played both Sun Stall and Quickstall in the BW OU metagame.

    On the topic of Quickstall, it sucks. Even in Ubers where is is much more viable it still sucks. There are two types of Pokemon in Quickstall: Pokemon that have to split there EVs between HP and Speed, and Pokemon that are fast via ability. It really does not help with walling when you split your EVs between HP and Speed because then you really don't have the defenses to wall anything, and the only way that you have any hope of doing it is by spreading quick burns.

    Sun Stall, in my past play tests and experiences is infidently better than Quick Stall. The biggest problem with Sun Stall is as you have all been saying: Ninetail. Yeah Ninetails sucks, it is a terrible Pokemon and would of course never be thought of without Drought. But is one bad Pokemon worth a team of bad Pokemon? The Pokemon that you talk about in Quickstall are all really niche Pokemon, and putting a bunch of niche Pokemon together really will not make an effective team. I also don't understand why you guys are dismissive of Venusaur on Sun Stall. YOU CAN STILL USE HIM AS A REVENGE KILLER! That should be a great attractant to Sun Stall.

    Really in the end it is pick your poison: Ninetails or a team of Niche pokemon.
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