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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Electrolyte, Oct 8, 2012.
Bubbly's Choice Band Tyranitar
Thanks for the threatlist Harsha and PenguinX i guess, also Electrolyte cute as fuck bunny to! Man we got some good leaders for this CCAT ;) Oh and i picked three but i wanted to make it clear that i like CB Tyranitar the most. It synergises excellent with Gliscor it eliminates the need for us to take extreme defensive measures to make sure we can handle sun and rain while it is also probally the best offensive partner to Keldeo available think this team My Little Pwny
bubbly's CB Tyranitar
Lavos Spawn's SubHeal Breloom
Dragonuser's CM Jirachi
P.S. Pg 15 is team raters only thus far ;)
ganj4lF's LO Mamoswine
bubbly's CB Tyranitar
Dragonuser's CM Jirachi
Suspense remains absolute !
bubbly's cb tyranitar
Bubbly's CB Tar
Since it's inevitable:
I wish Tyranitar and Keldeo didn't go so well together. I love Keldeo. Not too fond of Tyranitar unless I make myself...
Alright, bubbly's Choice Band Tyranitar snagged a majority of the votes, so it's our next Pokemon on the team. At the moment, our team is:
[box]Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 Spe
- Baton Pass
- Taunt / Toxic
Keldeo @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power Electric
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 SpD
- Stone Edge
With that in mind, we are now opening nominations for Pokemon #4. Something to make note of is that our team has trouble with rain teams, especially Thundurus-T. While we don't want to be reacting to them by any means (posting counters and such), we should focus on making sure that the next few Pokemon carry hazards and pack good synergy as well. Good Baton Pass recipients are welcome as well! There are a lot of ways we can go here, and I don't think Tyranitar is very limiting, if at all. We should definitely take into account what most offensive teams need, however. Namely, I would say we need a way to revenge kill and some entry hazards (though Stealth Rock is the only real necessity). Let's get nominating!
I suggest Specially Defensive Rotom-W!
EVs: 248 HP / 32 SpA / 228 SpD
Quite honestly, Rotom-W fits many roles that this team needs. First of all, it is able to put a stop to a lot of Rain's most proeminent threats, including Tornadus-T (whose mixed LO variant is able to completely annihilate this team), and most Water type attack spammers like Politoed thanks to its great set of resistances. This will remove a lot of pressure on Keldeo which is currently the team's only Water resist, and since we want to use it as a sweeper we'd rather keep it for late game. This isn't the only things Rotom-W accomplish though. It is also an extremely good lure to both Latias and Latios who are obstacles to Keldeo's sweep. Once you switch in Rotom-W, the opponent might have to switch their Lati twin in to stop Rotom-W, giving us the perfect opportunity to Volt Switch out of them on the switch and then go to Tyranitar and Pursuit them for the OHKO. While Rotom-W doesn't have the best synergy with Gliscor, as it doesn't use its Substitutes very well, I feel like it adds a lot to the team's defensive synergy and helps Keldeo's sweep which is worth a slot.
Whimsicott @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Leech Seed
- Stun Spore
Yea, it's the (almost) most annoying thing in Pokemon ever. Stops setup sweepers cold with Encore (including mentioned Thundurus-T), makes almost perfect use of Substitute itself and most importantly, it helps crippling the opponent's team enormously. Keeping in mind that Tyranitar isn't exactly fast but straight out powerful, spreading paralysis as main status seems very appealing for the team. Leech Seed again, lets its teammates recover an extra bit of HP.
Typing-wise, mono Grass lures in more Ice- and Fire-type users, giving Tyranitar and Keldo some options to switch in without the need of Substitute, which would help especially in early game, while being able to take most Ground-, Electic-, and Grass-type moves aimed at Tyranitar and Keldeo. Taunt is very dangerous for Whimsicott though, letting it usually just Leech Seed/Stun Spore the active Pokemon before being forced to switch..
Okay, so we have 3 Pokemon slots left and we still need to try and fit in the following:
a Choice Scarfer
preferably 2 Steels
a Sun check
a Rain offense check (this is v important at this stage since we are weak to nearly all the rain sweepers!)
I really want to nom SDef Zapdos because it absolutely dicks on rain, but looking at the list of stuff we still need to check I think we'd be leaving ourselves with far to much to fit in the remaining 2 teamslots. This is especially the case given that we'd need to add a spinner to that list too if we use Zapdos. The same is largely true of Rotom-W in that we'd still need a scarfer, at least 1 steel, a sun check, and stealth rock in the last 2 slots.
I'll nominate something in a bit, I'm just trying to plan this out in advance so we aren't leaving ourselves with too much to beat later. Honestly the best option seems to be adding SDef Rotom-W now and then adding some kind of Heatran next round, leaving us with a free slot for a scarfer to patch-up the weaknesses to physical dragons etc. CBTar / SubPass Glisc / CM Keldeo / SDef Rotom-W / Shed Shell SR Heatran / Scarf Jirachi looks okay in my head bar the nasty Garchomp weakness, but I'll think it over for a bit. Another route we could go down is Bronzong / Skarm in slot 4 (preferably with SDef spreads so they can take on Torn-T decently) and then having Latias as our back-up water resist and Sun check, then round the team off with a scarfer like Genesect, Terrakion, Jirachi etc.
Sorry just gonna plan this through some more
Latias and Heatran are arguably the best additions to help deal with this. We do have Tyranitar who can checkmate a weakened Ninetales with Pursuit and I see a lot of Ninetales running Toxic > Will-O there too so Tyranitar is decent vs those variants. Obviously still need to be careful about Dugtrio with Tyranitar. If we go with Rotom-W here then some kind of Shed Shell Heatran w/ Stealth Rock is likely our best option for the next slot. If we go with some specially defensive steel like Bronzong / Skarmory (or Jirachi I guess but then we still lose to Torn-T + Duggy and Chomp is a bigger issue) then something like Calm Mind or LO Latias fits in nicely to handle Venusaur.
SDef Rotom-W obviously checks this pretty nicely. Its an excellent Torn-T check, burns Ferrothorn and just annoys everything else with STAB Volt Switch. The other option would be to use SDef Skarmory / Bronzong as our Torn-T check, and then having Latias who patches up our weakness to opposing Keldeo and checks Thundurus-T. This pathway is a bit more messy than the Rotom-W one since if Torn-t U-Turns out of our steel as we switch in then they have a bunch of options to go to that Skarmory can't really do anything to. However as long as we get Stealth Rock down relatively early and make the most of the few chances we have to get sand up, rain offense is still handleable if we go with SDef Steel + Latias.
Sand Offense 1:
We already match-up pretty well against this. Keldeo runs through it if we can trap Latias and Gliscor gets lots of opportunities to SubPass against their Hippowdon or choice-locked Magnezone. Rotom-W is still nice here since its an excellent Mamoswine check and also annoys the team a lot if we trap and KO Latias. The SDef Steel + Latias route is still nice, as Bronzong is still a hard Mamoswine counter even with a more specially defensive EV spread although Skarmory struggles a bit more.
Sand Offense 2:
Trap Latios and go to town with Keldeo? We are CB and Rock Gem Terrakion weak no matter what we add at this point, I think we are better off just making sure we at least have something to switch-in on a Stone Edge (i.e. Bronzong) and we have Gliscor to take Close Combats, so we can at least play around it with prediction which is the best you can really do anyway lol. RP Landorus is annoying but again, Bronzong is an excellent counter. Rotom-W isn't as good in this match-up as Bronzong would be, but its still not a bad match-up by any means if we do choose the washing machine.
Nghhh I really want Hidden Power [Ice] Keldeo so that it can actually do something in this match-up! Rotom-W is okay here since it can check Mamoswine and Starmie but ultimately it loses to all the dragons. Earthquake Bronzong can come close to an OHKO on Magnezone whilst its only getting 2HKOd by Specs in return, but still isn't that good an answer to haxorus because of Mold Breaker Earthquake. Shed Shell Skarmory would be cool but without Leftovers or physical defensive investment it ultimately can't ward off all these massive physical threats.
These teams vary far too much to even comment on our match-up against them atm. Ultimately these games will be won and lost depending on how the team is played and what scarfer we choose imo.
CBTar is decent here. Taunt Gliscor is also pretty rare so can mess them up and get off free SubPasses. We basically just have to take advantage with Taunt Gliscor early and don't let go of the momentum we gain from that.
edit: Yeah, okay I'm nominating Bronzong.
Bronzong @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SDef
IVs: 2 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball / Toxic
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Toxic
- Earthquake / Toxic
EV spread is pretty open at the moment, I'll do some calcs and talk to some people to see if they have anything better than this. Pretty much everything you need to know about why Bronzong is decent for this team is above. Its a SDef Jirachi that doesn't get donked by Dugtrio but loses out on Wish. Note that I'm pretty much nominating this on the assumption that if we choose it we'll almost have to choose some kind of Latias / Latios in the next round to patch-up the sun weakness whilst still being decent vs offensive rain.
edit 500: also can we actually have a vote on some of the specific movesets for the Pokemon we've already chosen? I'm talking specifically about changing Keldeo's Hidden Power because [Electric] doesn't really help with anything notable whereas [Ice] is pretty much necessary to stand any chance vs the omnipresent dragons. Other choices that it would be nice to solidify before we go further are if we want Taunt / Toxic on Gliscor (assuming Taunt), Jolly on Gliscor to outspeed Deo-D, and a faster Ttar so we can actually beat Jellicent.
Right now the biggest problems seem to be Tornadus-T, physical Dragons, offensive rain threats, and offensive sun threats. Offensive Breloom seems quite problematic too, as he can defeat all of our pokes 1 on 1, and we can't even pas a Sub with the threat of Bullet Seed. We also really need SR. As no poke can do all these i am going to nominate one that can do 3 of them, as well as checking Breloom, and many Rain and Sun threats:
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 Atk
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Stealth Rock
Mamoswine obviously helps us with our physical Dragons, Breloom, Torn-T and Thund-T problem. Ice Shard OHKOes any genie after SR, as well as doing 83% min to Breloom, meaning that after SR and 1 LO round it will be die to Ice Shard. It also checks pretty damn good Venusaur, a huge sun threat, dealing 72% damage min! All in all, i think that Mamo is a fine choice right now, because it helps with many problems, as well as provide SR. It might not work as well with Gliscor, but it helps the team in a whole, and let's not forget that Gliscor won't always be passing Subs, so Mamo helps us out in tight situations with its awesome priority!
Penguin-X's team plan also seems very solid! I was also thinking of SpD Bronz + Latias to cover most problems, but in the end i preffered Mamo, which offers so many things for the team.
I nominate SpDef Jirachi!
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Body Slam
- Iron Head
One of the, if not the, best counters to the omnipresent Tornadus-T. Jirachi has no problems switching into its powerful moves. The only thing it fears is Tornadus-T U-Turning into a Dugtrio, which Rotom-W does not. But, the main pro in picking Jirachi over Rotom-W is that Jirachi also carries Stealth Rock which are team will need. Having Jirachi be both our SR setter and Tornadus-T check gives us more flexibility down the line. Jirachi also makes a pretty handy BP recipient, as it resists the Ice-type attacks commonly thrown at Gliscor. Paralysis support is also amazing in our current metagame where everything is offensive and relies on top speeds.
Not a supporter of Whimsicott since its the biggest Ferrothorn bait ever, which is going to spike on our ass and destroy our team. It also doesn't really patch up any weaknesses we might have.
Regardless, if we wanted a Steel Type + SR, Ferrothorn looks like our best bet, (for rain) or Heatran (for Sun). Mamo is nice I guess, but doesn't really help us with boosted water attacks, (and still loses to Jolly Loom) and its unreliable at setting up SR anyway. Not nominating anything, but yea, just my 2 cents.
I'm nominating Latias.
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Draco Meteor
Latias is an excellent check in to Thundurus-T being able to outspeed/live hp [ice] and ohko with Draco Meteor. It's also a good switch in to water attacks or volt switchers like Thundurus-t and Rotom-w. The evs are nothing special, just max sp atk and speed to speed tie with other Lati@s. Hidden power ground so it can hit Jirachi for ~40% and 2hkoing bulky Heatran while Ohkoing offensive Heatran. Draco Meteor for a strong stab being able to 2hko most of the unresisted metagame (apart from chansey and blissey ofc). Psyshock to ohko Keldeo, Tentacruel, Terrakion etc. Latias is also able to live a specs hurricane from Tornadus-t after rocks and Ohkoing with Draco Meteor. I therefore think Latias would fit really well on this team as a rain check. Latias also does a lot of work vs Sun teams, being able to ohko most things with Draco apart from Heatran which gets 1/2hko'd by Hp ground since Hp ice cant ohko no matter the set.
I agree about Ferro, as he is a very nice option for a steel type. My only problem is that it cant handle Torn-T.
While Mamo doesn't help against Water attacks, it checks many rain threats, such as the genies and Latios, so it helps quite a lot. We can put Latias/Rotom-W in the next slot and be pretty safe abour water attacks anyway. And i find that while Mamo is not the best SR setter, it can still pretty easily set up SR when coming to revenge kill threats such as the therians and any dragon.
I'm nominating Latias as well, especially since it works wonders with CB Tar. It's a great partner for Keldeo / Gliscor too
Heatran nomination : REMOVED, thus FREE
I STRONGLY suggest a pokemon almost dedicated to deal with Breloom, I feel like it's the number one issue from the games I played (I'm testing a Keldeo/Gliscor/Ttar/Mamoswine/Salamence/Heatran team it works great and the Mamoswine that both Gandalf and Alexwolf suggested works REALLY WELL, but Superpower is really useful !).
I'm not 100% sure what Hidden Power [Ground] is really needed for here. I understand that it hits Heatran but we already have Tyranitar and Keldeo as excellent switch-ins for it. Gliscor also beats it 1v1. I think Hidden Power [Fire] is almost a necessity if we run Latias on this team since we already have a big problem with Ferrothorn in particular, plus we don't actually have a reliable way of brining down Skarmory after we've Taunted it.
90% of half-decent sun teams in BW2 are running Dugtrio, so all Heatran is doing is getting a single kill then getting trapped and killed. Hidden Power [Grass] is also pretty weird since we're already incredibly Dragonite and ScarfMence weak. I think if we are going to use Heatran it pretty much has to be some variant with Shed Shell (bulky or offensive, p much needs rocks though otherwise we're struggling to fit it in) or Choice Scarf, otherwise we just have 2 Sun checks that don't even beat the common sun teams.
I've already kinda touched on the Rotom-W nomination and its very likely to be the one that wins this vote; if that gets chosen then we'll likely end up going down the Rotom-W / SR Heatran / whatever scarf mon route which is definitely solid. EV-wise we only need 28 SAtk to OHKO Gliscor with Hydro Pump and Tornadus-T under Rain, 32 SAtk doesn't accomplish anything more than that afaik.
Also i want to clarify something... Everyone is assuming that a Steel type is a necessity, while it isn't in the reality. The best dragons are: Latios, Latias, Dragonite, and Salamence, and all those are dealt pretty well even without a Steel type. Lati@s get buttfucked by CBTar, and where will Dnite and Mence set-up? Dnite cannot set-up on Gliscor if we go with Taunt, which we should do, cannot set-up on Mamoswine, and many fear to set-up on CM Keldeo, which commonly runs HP Ice. It can only set-up on Ttar, and then get revenge killed by Mamo. Similarly Mence can't set-up on Gliscor, as if it uses DD, we will just Baton Pass to Mamo, if it uses Outrage fine, Gliscor takes it and goes to Mamo for the revenge kill, and finally Fire Blast doesn't even 2HKO Gliscor. And again Mence won't try to set-up on non choiced Keldeo. Only Scarf Mence can grab a kill against Keldeo, and maybe Ttar, but then it immediately dies to Mamo.
tl;dr Gliscor, Ttar and Mamo take care of dragons just fine!
What we surely do need though, is a flying type resist for Torn-T, which murders us currently. Whether this will be Bronzong, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Jirachi or Heatran is up to the community to decide.
The only teams that don't really need a steel-type are Hyper / Heavy offensive ones. Bulky offense / Balance can't afford to sac something every time Dragonite comes in so they can revenge-kill with Mamoswine. ScarfMence is an even bigger issue because it commonly uses Dragon Claw early-game almost purely so it can't just be immediately revenge-killed by something like Mamoswine after a KO.
Every team without a steel-type is weak to various dragons and the fact that we can't even hit them with Gliscor and our current Keldeo set just compounds that issue.
A few things:
Firstly, scarf genesect is looking uncomfortably like our fourth member. i'd prefer to avoid this.
Secondly, can whimsicott please have taunt over stun spore? It's nice to have prankster paralysis, but i prefer stallbreaking.
Thirdly:I'd like to nominate Agilipass Jolteon:
252 SpA/ 252 Spe/4 Hp
-Hidden Power (Ice)
The ideal scenario here is to get an agility, then pass it on an earthquake to gliscor;substitute if you can, then pass a sub and plus two to keldeo, which seems pretty much like GG to me. Meanwhile, jolteon isn't just a baton passer, as it can check tornadus and thundurus-T. If we choose volt switch over thunderbolt, it can do some nice work on rain teams,although i prefer thunderbolt. I'd prefer lefties, but LO works too;and i'd also consider expert belt, which can still get great damage on SE targets without losing too much of its HP, which it needs for the therians. The 4 evs are in HP because it has a much higher SpD then Phys. D, so there's no point in investing there.
Edit:Why the hell is keldeo HP elec anyhow? Really, why not just go for HP ghost, are we really really scared of gyarados? With a sub tenta's still setup bait.
I use Hidden Power [Ground] to hit Jirachi in rain for decent damage on the switch in mainly. But I agree after reading your post Hidden Power [Fire] would fit the team better. It also beats the Scizor Pursuit + Keldeo combo which isn't uncommon. Skarmory and Ferrothorn can be annoying, but can be played around. Ttar can ohko Ferrothorn with Superpower while Keldeo's hydro pump does 80-90% to Skarmory. But I do think you're right that Hidden Power [Fire] would fit the team better so I edited my post.
Well, a Careful nature just weakens Hidden Power [Ice], a Sassy nature prevents that from happening and gives you a stronger Gyro Ball. 2 Speed IVs gives you the strongest Gyro Ball possible when using Hidden Power [Ice]. I did a few calcs and 104 SAtk EVs gets the guarenteed OHKO Salamence after Stealth Rock and Sandstorm damage, it also gets a guarenteed 2HKO on everything 4x weak to Ice in OU, other than Dragonite (who has a good chance of being 2HKOd with Sandstorm damage, but to get the guarenteed 2HKO you need Stealth Rock.) 104 EVs may be a little too much to take out of bulk, but we'll see.
Nature was a stupid mistake on my part, thanks for pointing that out, TGMD.