-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
naw naw man. you guys got the wrong poke and the wrong movesets. offensive rapid spinner is what we really need. starmie has horrible synergy with the pokes on the team. what we need is moar donphan.
Donphan @ leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Nature: Adamant
EV: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Earthquake
-Head Smash
-Ice shard / Stealth Rock
-Rapid spin
this pokemon is a beast.
earthquake is very strong, almost as strong as jolly excadrills and naive landorus's. head smash is a STAB stone edge, and it allows donphan to OHKO threats like gengar which would stand in the way of hazards being spun. ice shard is the ever valuable priority, allowing him to hit stuff like dragonite and landorus, and rapid spin for spinning hazards. it has the amazing synergy with gyarados and haxorus (kinda) unlike starmie, and can spin unlike mamoswine. it can also check volcarona (to a certain extent) and can check dragonite as well.
also. did i mention that jellicent is 2hkoed? yea.
Donphan @ leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Nature: Adamant
EV: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Earthquake
-Head Smash
-Ice shard / Stealth Rock
-Rapid spin
this pokemon is a beast.
earthquake is very strong, almost as strong as jolly excadrills and naive landorus's. head smash is a STAB stone edge, and it allows donphan to OHKO threats like gengar which would stand in the way of hazards being spun. ice shard is the ever valuable priority, allowing him to hit stuff like dragonite and landorus, and rapid spin for spinning hazards. it has the amazing synergy with gyarados and haxorus (kinda) unlike starmie, and can spin unlike mamoswine. it can also check volcarona (to a certain extent) and can check dragonite as well.
also. did i mention that jellicent is 2hkoed? yea.
Yeah I kinda like Donphan for the stability it brings the team. I would prolly like to see SR and Rapid Spin on whatever Donphan we use (assuming it wins the nomination) since it saves us needing to run a second pokemon to set up Stealth Rock but, lets see
For revenging I really like ScarfRachi someone said it earlier. Its different from all those countless Scarf Terrakion and Landorus that are running around, that's all I have to say. For spinner either Offensive Donphan but I'm not crazy about Head Smash, maybe replace that with SE. Or something I'll call Utility Spinner Starmie:
Starmie @ Leftovers
Natural Cure
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- TBolt/Surf
Basically this starmie's job is to spin and check threats with Ice Beam (super good coverage) or the forth slot. TBolt is there for BoltBeam but I threw Surf in there because imo Surf hits way more things and is STAB. Recover is for longevity so it can keep on spinning. Starmie actually can live for a very long time and can eat Bullet Punches all day.
Starmie @ Leftovers
Natural Cure
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- TBolt/Surf
Basically this starmie's job is to spin and check threats with Ice Beam (super good coverage) or the forth slot. TBolt is there for BoltBeam but I threw Surf in there because imo Surf hits way more things and is STAB. Recover is for longevity so it can keep on spinning. Starmie actually can live for a very long time and can eat Bullet Punches all day.
I made it to over 1400 points on the ladder with Terrakion on-board. I like it for the most part, but it has some big flaws.
Here's a fun match I had today against another Heavy Offense team:
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-ShizuoHeiwajima-vs-Katakiri--2012-05-02-private1841329329
Terrakion doesn't do much at all in this match but what he does do is save the entire match.
Zoroark is mostly foddered out this match as I didn't have anything else I'd want to risk against FS Endeavor Mamoswine (I knew his set as soon as I saw his team).
Turn 3 DMeteor miss was unfortunate, but I could have used that -2 Latios to have Gyarados set up to out-pace and OHKO all but his Scarf Salamence. His most likely switch-in to Gyarados would have been Haxorus just because Gyarados don't normally carry moves stronger than EQ except Bounce, which his Mag could intercept. Then again the same is true about Gyarados vs Latios so maybe he would have stayed in.
Eh. Over-thinking. Either way that would have been a Pokemon down to replace Celebi.
What I found about Terrakion while testing him is that, while he does what we need him to do in checking Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona, and Gyarados, he needs support to do so. That's the biggest thing turning me off from Terrakion because I need to use an entire team slot for a Pivot to get Terrakion in on a resisted attack. While that Pivot does have SR, which this team desperately needs, making the best out of an unnecessary Pokemon, I still don't find that it's worth it in the long run.
There's also the issue of Typing and a lot of it ties in with it's inability to switch-in. Will Gyarados, our only Fighting-resist being weak to Rock, we are really Terrakion weak should a CB Terrakion or SubSD get in on anything but our Terrakion, or worse if it comes in with our Terrakion locked into Stone Edge. And, aside from Rock, it doesn't noticeably add to our team's spread of resistances and I feel like we could get more out of this team slot than that.
Terrakion does what we need it to do, but it's just not optimal.
I was considering nominating Swampert, Scarf Latios (Although I know Scarf Latios suffers from the same inability to switch-in as Terrakion,) or a few others, but I'll do some more testing with those and hopefully have a nomination of my own by tomorrow.
Although, I have to admit that Tomahawk's Scarf Jirachi looks good but it has no way of dealing with Volcarona. Unless I come up with something that can deal with Volca as well as the Dragons, Jirachi will probably get my vote.
Here's a fun match I had today against another Heavy Offense team:
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-ShizuoHeiwajima-vs-Katakiri--2012-05-02-private1841329329
Terrakion doesn't do much at all in this match but what he does do is save the entire match.
Zoroark is mostly foddered out this match as I didn't have anything else I'd want to risk against FS Endeavor Mamoswine (I knew his set as soon as I saw his team).
Turn 3 DMeteor miss was unfortunate, but I could have used that -2 Latios to have Gyarados set up to out-pace and OHKO all but his Scarf Salamence. His most likely switch-in to Gyarados would have been Haxorus just because Gyarados don't normally carry moves stronger than EQ except Bounce, which his Mag could intercept. Then again the same is true about Gyarados vs Latios so maybe he would have stayed in.
Eh. Over-thinking. Either way that would have been a Pokemon down to replace Celebi.
What I found about Terrakion while testing him is that, while he does what we need him to do in checking Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona, and Gyarados, he needs support to do so. That's the biggest thing turning me off from Terrakion because I need to use an entire team slot for a Pivot to get Terrakion in on a resisted attack. While that Pivot does have SR, which this team desperately needs, making the best out of an unnecessary Pokemon, I still don't find that it's worth it in the long run.
There's also the issue of Typing and a lot of it ties in with it's inability to switch-in. Will Gyarados, our only Fighting-resist being weak to Rock, we are really Terrakion weak should a CB Terrakion or SubSD get in on anything but our Terrakion, or worse if it comes in with our Terrakion locked into Stone Edge. And, aside from Rock, it doesn't noticeably add to our team's spread of resistances and I feel like we could get more out of this team slot than that.
Terrakion does what we need it to do, but it's just not optimal.
I was considering nominating Swampert, Scarf Latios (Although I know Scarf Latios suffers from the same inability to switch-in as Terrakion,) or a few others, but I'll do some more testing with those and hopefully have a nomination of my own by tomorrow.
Although, I have to admit that Tomahawk's Scarf Jirachi looks good but it has no way of dealing with Volcarona. Unless I come up with something that can deal with Volca as well as the Dragons, Jirachi will probably get my vote.
Scizor (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit
Gyarados (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
Haxorus (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
Zoroark (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide
Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Leaf Storm
- Earth Power
- U-turn
Celebi is a Pivot to lure in attacks that Terrakion & Gyarados resist to get them in safely as it U-Turns out.
Scizor is Scizor.
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit
Gyarados (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
Haxorus (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
Zoroark (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide
Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Leaf Storm
- Earth Power
- U-turn
Celebi is a Pivot to lure in attacks that Terrakion & Gyarados resist to get them in safely as it U-Turns out.
Scizor is Scizor.
Thought I'd try out Katakari's team for a bit, and had an absolutely awful time. I must've crashed down from about 1400 to about 1250 on the ladder, winning only one game on the way. I must compliment Katakiri on his battling though, if not his teambuilding.
I was rather unfortunate in that I ran into mostly baton pass teams (both full BP and smash pass). Katakiri's team has nothing against baton pass as far as I can tell. I would like to make sure that the baton pass issue is dealt with, because I can't stand the auto-loss.
I'll have a look at my logs and try to find out what was wrong once I've recovered from the shock of losing so much.
edit: ok I've moved up a bit again now, but also discovered a massive sun weaknesses, as is common for weatherless teams.
edit2: Dropped down all the way to 1200. I've done better than this with all sorts of total crap. I'd say from my testing that such an offensive gyarados makes a poor partner for our two pokemon. It kills itself so quickly that it's not dealing with threats such as Scizor properly. Also, it seems to lure in and stuff with which the team has no real problem. The Haxorus / Zoroark combo has served me well though. Those are the only two Pokemon that have convinced me.
edit3: Katakiri's updated team looks a lot more promising.
I was rather unfortunate in that I ran into mostly baton pass teams (both full BP and smash pass). Katakiri's team has nothing against baton pass as far as I can tell. I would like to make sure that the baton pass issue is dealt with, because I can't stand the auto-loss.
I'll have a look at my logs and try to find out what was wrong once I've recovered from the shock of losing so much.
edit: ok I've moved up a bit again now, but also discovered a massive sun weaknesses, as is common for weatherless teams.
edit2: Dropped down all the way to 1200. I've done better than this with all sorts of total crap. I'd say from my testing that such an offensive gyarados makes a poor partner for our two pokemon. It kills itself so quickly that it's not dealing with threats such as Scizor properly. Also, it seems to lure in and stuff with which the team has no real problem. The Haxorus / Zoroark combo has served me well though. Those are the only two Pokemon that have convinced me.
edit3: Katakiri's updated team looks a lot more promising.
Sorry to hear that, jc.
I usually just send out Haxorus on Baton Pass because of Lum Berry or get a Sub up with Zoroark against Smeargle. Most Baton Pass teams don't have Calm Mind or Amnesia users that particularly enjoy eating a STAB Dark Pulse.
Smash Pass on the other hand is a bit harder than that, but a U-Turn from Scizor then followed up by a Close Combat from Terrakion would take it down since Gorebyss only reaches 446 Speed at +2.
I've been trying out Offensive RS Donphan: http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-TM87-vs-Katakiri--2012-05-03-private663812539
Man, I love Double Edge on Gyarados. Such great neutral coverage and raw power. Only 1/3 of my HP to OHKO something is definitely worth it.
I paired SpDefensive Jirachi and CB Dragonite with this version. Kind of Skarmory-weak but Donphan makes sure it can't do anything if Zoroark doesn't get to it first and weakness it with SE until I can EQ it on the Roost. Hell, Gyarados can get take it down with a lucky Waterfall flinch.
But anyway, I really like Donphan. I tried out Scarf Jirachi and I just felt it was kind of dead weight with having to use ThunderPunch. Fire Punch, Trick, & U-Turn are all far more useful outside of just hitting Gyarados, which most team's don't carry. Gyarados is important to check, but giving up a move-slot on a Pokemon for the sole purpose of beating him isn't optimal.
As I demonstrated in that replay, Donphan does exactly what we need him to; take down Dragons. I haven't had the balls to try Head Smash yet since I don't want Donphan going down if something brings him to Sturdy. If he can get just one more Ice Shard off even at 7% HP, I want to keep him around; just like in that last replay, one last Ice Shard was all I needed to win so it pays off. I've just been using Stone Edge; it gets the job done.
Jirachi nets me a Steel-type, a SR user, and a check for VoltTurn. I was mainly aiming for the anti-VoltTurn aspect, as Gyarados & Donphan aren't fans of Rotom-W, but SR definitely doesn't hurt and frees a slot for:
CB Dragonite. My secondary Volcarona check, VoltTurn check, priority user, sun counter, and a generally hard-hitter. With Donphan; Jirachi; and, to an extent, Gyarados checking Dragons, I saw no problems with adding Dragonite.
But yeah, Donphan's got my support. If you want to test out the Donphan version, it's just the onsite SpDef Jirachi & CB Dragonite sets with SR over Wish.
I usually just send out Haxorus on Baton Pass because of Lum Berry or get a Sub up with Zoroark against Smeargle. Most Baton Pass teams don't have Calm Mind or Amnesia users that particularly enjoy eating a STAB Dark Pulse.
Smash Pass on the other hand is a bit harder than that, but a U-Turn from Scizor then followed up by a Close Combat from Terrakion would take it down since Gorebyss only reaches 446 Speed at +2.
I've been trying out Offensive RS Donphan: http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-TM87-vs-Katakiri--2012-05-03-private663812539
Man, I love Double Edge on Gyarados. Such great neutral coverage and raw power. Only 1/3 of my HP to OHKO something is definitely worth it.
I paired SpDefensive Jirachi and CB Dragonite with this version. Kind of Skarmory-weak but Donphan makes sure it can't do anything if Zoroark doesn't get to it first and weakness it with SE until I can EQ it on the Roost. Hell, Gyarados can get take it down with a lucky Waterfall flinch.
But anyway, I really like Donphan. I tried out Scarf Jirachi and I just felt it was kind of dead weight with having to use ThunderPunch. Fire Punch, Trick, & U-Turn are all far more useful outside of just hitting Gyarados, which most team's don't carry. Gyarados is important to check, but giving up a move-slot on a Pokemon for the sole purpose of beating him isn't optimal.
As I demonstrated in that replay, Donphan does exactly what we need him to; take down Dragons. I haven't had the balls to try Head Smash yet since I don't want Donphan going down if something brings him to Sturdy. If he can get just one more Ice Shard off even at 7% HP, I want to keep him around; just like in that last replay, one last Ice Shard was all I needed to win so it pays off. I've just been using Stone Edge; it gets the job done.
Jirachi nets me a Steel-type, a SR user, and a check for VoltTurn. I was mainly aiming for the anti-VoltTurn aspect, as Gyarados & Donphan aren't fans of Rotom-W, but SR definitely doesn't hurt and frees a slot for:
CB Dragonite. My secondary Volcarona check, VoltTurn check, priority user, sun counter, and a generally hard-hitter. With Donphan; Jirachi; and, to an extent, Gyarados checking Dragons, I saw no problems with adding Dragonite.
But yeah, Donphan's got my support. If you want to test out the Donphan version, it's just the onsite SpDef Jirachi & CB Dragonite sets with SR over Wish.
Nom'ing OTR Bronzong
Bronzong @ Life Orb
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
0 Spe IV
Levitate
-Trick Room
-Gyro Ball
-Earthquake
-Explosion
I know I haven't been terribly involved with this CCAT, but from a glance I can see it easily getting mauled by power Choice Scarf users and faster set-up threats. OTR Zong draws in set-up mons, due to his usual presence as a defensive Poke. This lets him start sweepeing the opposing team and tear up fast threats. He also serves as a good revenge killer, and his TR is useful for the ^Donphan set mentioned above (for which I second). And if worst comes to worst, he can just blow up and kill stuff.
Bronzong @ Life Orb
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
0 Spe IV
Levitate
-Trick Room
-Gyro Ball
-Earthquake
-Explosion
I know I haven't been terribly involved with this CCAT, but from a glance I can see it easily getting mauled by power Choice Scarf users and faster set-up threats. OTR Zong draws in set-up mons, due to his usual presence as a defensive Poke. This lets him start sweepeing the opposing team and tear up fast threats. He also serves as a good revenge killer, and his TR is useful for the ^Donphan set mentioned above (for which I second). And if worst comes to worst, he can just blow up and kill stuff.
would reuniclus not be a better otr sweeper?
Righto
Sorry for the wait for this, had a 21st birthday party that went on for a bit longer than 24 hours and I have only just recovered enough to post a thread.
Stage 4 Ballot (Pick One)
Please take a look through the ballot list. If I missed something, let me know asap and ill get it back up there.
Time for us to pick a 4th member, lets get voting!
Sorry for the wait for this, had a 21st birthday party that went on for a bit longer than 24 hours and I have only just recovered enough to post a thread.
Stage 4 Ballot (Pick One)
Terrakion (Choice Scarf) - bubbly- Mamoswine (Life Orb) - Tomahawk9
- Starmie (Choice Scarf) - Jimera0
- Starmie (LO Rapid Spin) - Jimera0
- Latios (Specs) - The QWAZ
- Heatran (Physically Defensive) - theBEEZ KNEEZ
- Weavile - Woodchuck
- Jirachi (Choice Scarf) - Tomahawk9
- Donphan (Defensive) - ace combat
- Donphan (Offensive) - bluemon
- Starmie (Defensive Rapid Spin) - skidilidy
- Bronzong (OTR) - JellyOs
Please take a look through the ballot list. If I missed something, let me know asap and ill get it back up there.
Time for us to pick a 4th member, lets get voting!
Donphan (Offensive)
Donphan (Offensive)
Having tested a few of the options, all I've really concluded so far is that Gyarados is seriously out of place. The set was not bad at all, but it just did not gel with the rest of the team in the slightest.
I was quite surprised by how effective Donphan was. I'm not sure if it's a great fit, but Head Smash is really cool. I barely actually used Rapid Spin at all because I couldn't resist killing stuff.
So yeah, I'm going to say Offensive Donphan.
I really think we need to slow down now, test the team out and take a good look at the choices we've made. I think having such an offensive Gyarados is a mistake, for starters. Also, I'm really starting to dislike the team as far as hazards are concerned. Every member appears to be taking different damage (there were few available choices that didn't). I was really hoping that we could have more than one viable illusion partner in the team.
I was quite surprised by how effective Donphan was. I'm not sure if it's a great fit, but Head Smash is really cool. I barely actually used Rapid Spin at all because I couldn't resist killing stuff.
So yeah, I'm going to say Offensive Donphan.
I really think we need to slow down now, test the team out and take a good look at the choices we've made. I think having such an offensive Gyarados is a mistake, for starters. Also, I'm really starting to dislike the team as far as hazards are concerned. Every member appears to be taking different damage (there were few available choices that didn't). I was really hoping that we could have more than one viable illusion partner in the team.
Offensive Donphan
Testimony from people who've used it convinced me, and I don't want to compound our Scizor weakness with Starmie (I know from experience that it is not reliable at all as a Scizor check despite resisting BP) or Mamoswine (as much as I love the wooly Mamoth, it doesn't fit well on our team). Defensive Pokemon are just a straight no with this being High Offense and all, which leaves us with Donphan, seeing as all the offensive options are also Scizor weak.
Damn, Scizor really DOES check a lot of shit.
Testimony from people who've used it convinced me, and I don't want to compound our Scizor weakness with Starmie (I know from experience that it is not reliable at all as a Scizor check despite resisting BP) or Mamoswine (as much as I love the wooly Mamoth, it doesn't fit well on our team). Defensive Pokemon are just a straight no with this being High Offense and all, which leaves us with Donphan, seeing as all the offensive options are also Scizor weak.
Damn, Scizor really DOES check a lot of shit.
Donphan (Offensive)
Also agreeing with jc104 as well. I had reservations with LO DD Gyarados (the Taunt + DD version I feel slightly better towards as at least then you have some survivability) and after testing I just don't like how quickly it dies, especially when I needed to pivot around and use its resists to handle certain threats.
Unfortunately, unless Pocket and I change our minds, we will prolly do things as we did last time, that is, find the final members of the team, and THEN Playtest and THEN suggest changes (I might consider a final, re-evaluation but I think that would be all I would be getting. That said however, we can all bear this infomation in mind when selecting our final members so please do test the team out and find what works best.
Also agreeing with jc104 as well. I had reservations with LO DD Gyarados (the Taunt + DD version I feel slightly better towards as at least then you have some survivability) and after testing I just don't like how quickly it dies, especially when I needed to pivot around and use its resists to handle certain threats.
Unfortunately, unless Pocket and I change our minds, we will prolly do things as we did last time, that is, find the final members of the team, and THEN Playtest and THEN suggest changes (I might consider a final, re-evaluation but I think that would be all I would be getting. That said however, we can all bear this infomation in mind when selecting our final members so please do test the team out and find what works best.
Weavile
