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OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ginganinja, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. Tomahawk

    is a Tutoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010
    Aggron @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Head Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Aqua Tail
    - Superpower

    This thing can be really destructive with the right support. However, it really needs that support. I'm gonna start by saying that its Speed and common weaknesses suck. Several common Pokemon can revenge kill it, such as Politoed or Terrakion. However, if you can get this thing in and a turn to Head Smash, something is gonna die. I think the power is best shown by calcs:

    Head Smash vs 220 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 90% - 106%. Guaranteed KO after Stealth Rock.
    Head Smash vs 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 100% - 117%. Guaranteed KO.
    Head Smash vs 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 96% - 113%. 79% chance to KO.
    Head Smash vs 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 107% - 126%. Guaranteed KO.
    Head Smash vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Sableye: 101% - 120%. Guaranteed KO.
    Head Smash vs 252 HP / 240 Def Bold Tentacruel: 93% - 110%. Guaranteed KO after Stealth Rock, 61% chance to KO without it.
    Head Smash vs 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 102% - 120%. Guaranteed KO.

    Those are all Pokemon that are either bulky or resist Head Smash, and are all OHKOed. Basically, unless your opponent has one of Hitmontop, Hippowdon, Swampert, or Bronzong something's gonna take a load of damage, as those are the only four Pokemon that aren't 2HKOed by Aggron.

    Head Smash vs 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 57% - 67%. Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Head Smash vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Slowbro: 61% - 72%. Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Head Smash vs 236 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 67% - 79%. Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Head Smash vs 252 HP / 44 Def Impish Gliscor: 73% - 86%. Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Head Smash vs 248 HP / 216 Def Bold Jellicent: 82% - 97%. Guaranteed 2HKO, 68% chance to KO after Stealth Rock.

    However, thanks to its base 180 Defense, which is godly, it can come in on several physical attackers without Close Combat and Earthquake. That Steel-typing is great with it, as +1 Outrage from offensive Adamant Dragonite does 32% - 38%, meaning you can tank it easily and KO it with Head Smash. Several other Head Smash opportunities are Skarmory, Scizor locked in anything but Superpower, Ferrothorn, Terrakion locked in Stone Edge, just to name a few. With sandstorm support, this thing also gets respectable special bulk, and can come in several special attackers when combined with its typing, such as Latias, Celebi, bulky Volcarona, or Latios locked in Draco Meteor.

    Earthquake provides coverage for this set, hitting Pokemon such as Toxicroak and Nidoqueen. Aqua Tail and Superpower are in the last two slots, hitting bulky Ground-types and Ferrothorn respectively, but mostly you'll be using Head Smash anyways. if you want, you can replace either one with Ice Punch or Toxic. 164 Speed EVs let Aggron outspeed Skarmory and Head Smash it, which can even KO after Stealth Rock if Skarmory is specially defensive! A few more Speed EVs can be invested for Skarmory with Speed invested and such.
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 27, 2009
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 22, 2004
    ^ shed the chains of the past - anything (viable and underrated) is fair game (except for Nidoking) xP
  4. NoJohns


    Sep 11, 2010


    Espyjump's new groove:

    Espeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (-Atk, +Spe)
    - Calm Mind
    - Baton Pass
    - Substitute / Morning Sun (If Sun)
    - Psychic / Stored Power

    No idea why people stopped using espy. He does really well in this meta thanks to the resurgence of Deo-D and spike-stacking teams. Baton Pass is a strong get out of jail free card if you can use it right, resembling 4th generation Specs Jolteon's use of Baton Pass. Really good if you pair it up with Dugtrio to get that easy bait and switch on Tyranitar, which can set up Sun/Rain/Hail.

    Jynx would be cool too, even though its already been proven that she can be viable in this meta.
  5. bubbly


    Dec 4, 2009
    Hey Pocket when are you planning to end this stage?
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 22, 2004
    Depends on the activity level. The latest this nomination phase will stay up is April 9th, but if it seems like there is nothing left to be nominated, the voting can start as soon as this weekend. That's what ginganinja and I agreed upon. Until then, feel free to discuss and support your noms... and make sure to submit your noms soon if you haven't!
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja How do I live? How do I breathe?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 13, 2009
    O.k gunna discuss some noms. Not that this is just the opinion of ginganinja the random user rather than ginganinja the cohost of this thread, so if I like/dislike a nom im not issuing a QC stamp of approval or disapproval or something.

    Noms that I really really like

    Abomasnow: haha im biased here but I do think that the community creating a team with one of the most "forgotten" weathers around is pretty cool. Abomasnow doesn't do too badly against Rain Teams, which are spiking in usage, and its a good check to Rotom W and Landorus, both of which are common on Volt Turn Teams, and both of qhich are fairly popuar. The minor downside is that I feel the community would have to structure an excellent Hail Team, and thee are so many good hail teams around that I would prefer to build a Hail team that is'nt too similar to teams like Delkos Christmas etc etc

    Mew (Nasty Plot): Haha I love Nasty Plot Mew and I think its still underrated in this Metagame. Personally, I run Baton Pass so I can be pretty versitile and cos I OHKO Scizor (iirc) at +4 with Aura Sphere anyway so meh. Its a great set, and it can be very difficult to beat, especially when you really don't know what its last move it. I really like this choice.

    Cloyster: I have had a bit of a soft spot for Cloyster and when BW gave it Shell Smash, basically one of the best boosting moves in the game, it got a much needed boost. If it gets that Shell Smash boost off, next to nothing can stand up to it, the tricky part is, of course, getting that boost. That said, I feel that as a community we could make a very good Cloyster Team, which can be very threatening to a large number of teams.

    Heracross: HERABOSS. Haha I am actually surprised Heracross does'nt get too much usage, it has an excellent typing, fairly good bulk, and it does pretty well in a game full of Psychics designed to check the influx of Fighting Types in the Metagame. Heracross scares off a common Fighting check in Reuniclus with a STAB Megahorn, and by running a bulk up set you do limit the effectivness of Psyshock trying to kill you (I expect it does a lot tho unfortunately :( ). I actually really like Heracross for a CCAT since it can be very, very threatening, and could perhaps function similarly to Bulk Up Breloom, in terms of a check to Volt Turn (and lord knows we need more Volt Turn checks). Weaknesses to Gliscor and Skarmory are the obvious problems however I really would love to see a Heracross CCAT.

    Expert Belt Jirachi: Jirahci often runs a massive amount of sets, Specially Defensive, Wish CM, Sub CM, Scarf, however, Expert Belt has just been plain forgotten. Expert Belt Jirachi can be very effective at stealing a few surprise KOs, and (from experience) you never know exactly what attacks its running (is it running HP Grass for Rotom W / Gastrodon / Quagsire or is it running Thunderbolt for Gyarados etc etc). Expert Belt Jirachi is a very effective pokemon in the Metagame and really should be considered.

    Staraptor: Hehe I have CB Staraptor a test drive the other day and man did it nuke. It was like it had a stack of C4 attached to it. Just point the thing at a pokemon and run like hell the other way. Granted, the set posted was not CB, but Recklass Brave Bird just flat out murders so much of the game. We all know how effective Tornados can be with Hurricane, Staraptor can be just as deadly

    Zoroark: Yea, as a CCAT I feel that this would be an excellent choice. I don't particularly like Protect on it, since I feel that wit Illusion you can usually predict there move anyway (for example Scizor would almost always U-Turn a Celebi rather than Bullet Punching it) but I do feel that Protect would have excellent utality if we paired it with MYSTIC Gengar or something. I would much rather run Substitute (gives similar scouting value plus lots of pokemon commonly run Substitute allowing Zoroark to pull off illusion a little better), or something like Sucker Punch / Nasty Plot for fairly obvious reasons. I think that as a community it would be very fun selecting teammates for Zoroark, especially when you factor in Zoroark doing a fairly awesome job at luring in counters for pokemon X allowing it to sweep. For example (something random, Zoroark disguising itself as Terrakion to nail Skarmory or Gliscor etc etc)

    Kingdra: Rain Dance Kingdra looks AWESOME. You totally fuck shit up if your opponent is using Rain, and late game, you can just chuck up a Rain Dance and sweep, working in a similar fashion to Trick Room Reuniclus, turning the game on its head in an instant. In addition, Kingdra has prety nice bulk, wonderful STABs, and if we eliminate Ferrothorn (and perhapes Jellicent and stuff) it would utterly destroy teams. One of my top pics.

    Noms I don't like as much

    Sub Hydreigon: While I love the set as a whole, I don't really consider it a "forgotten wonder" when basically every Hydreigon I see is sub. Its seen a fair bit of popularity recently and I would kinda prefer to try a lesser used Hydreigon set, or perhapes a pokemon that gets less usage.

    CM Jirachi sets: Basically anything with CM Jirachi I don't really like since they are EVERYWHERE on rain teams. Again, similar boat as Hydreigon, they are great sets but I don't feel as if they show off the "forgotten wonder" focus of the CCAT as well as they should.

    Few other noms that im going to suggest which look cool and are forgotten.

    Mienshao (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance
    - Baton Pass

    I know that Mienshao was suggested earlier but I feel that this set is different enough to warrant a mention. Mienshao gets bugger all usage, and with Swords Dance it packs massive power. For example, you OHKO Skarmory after Stealth Rock, which is usually a problem for many physical sweepers. Baton Pass is really useful if, for example, you are burned, or facing something slow that beats you (Jellicent, Mew, Reuniclus) and you can safely Baton Pass those boosts away, setting up another sweeper like DD Mence, which can then bulldoze through the rest of the opponents team.

    Doom Desire Jirachi

    Jirachi @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 208 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Doom Desire
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Trick

    Specs Jirachi is'nt even listed in the Black White analysis, despite it being listed in the DPP one. It was one of the last sets added to the anaysis before Black/White came along and occupied all of our time, and it never really got the love it deserved. Specs Doom Desire pretty much OHKOs almost everything that doesn't resist it (bar the special walls like Blissey) and can 2KO shit like Ninetales and Politoed with Stealth Rock. Doom Desire has been buffed to 140 BP this generation, and no longer has an 85% (iirc) hit rate. The idea is to use Doom Desire as they bring in a counter to Jirachi, (say Heatran), then you bring in a pokemon that counters Heatran (like say, Terrakion) and now your opponent has to switch into something that beat beat a Terrakion that could attack, set up a Sub, set up a Swords Dance, or set up a Rock Polish, AND tank a Specs Doom Desire which is hitting pretty damn hard. (Hint, Scizor, Skarmory and Gliscor are all 2KOed by Specs Doom Desire so they cannot really switch in :) ). In a similar example Hurricane Volcarona has next to no counters if Doom Desire is in the air as Terrakion and Landorus all get smashed by Doom Desire, while Dragonite gets its MultiScale broken (and if Stealth Rock is up then its utterly wrecked), the damage enough for Hurricane to KO.

    That said, the set is controversial, and requires a fairly amount of high level thinking, as well as being fairly complicated to use so it might not be a good choice in practise.

    Salamence (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    Oh man Salamence where did you go. Apologies if everyone else seems him a lot but I fail to see him being used much at all, and Moxie has been released. Mix Mence is incredibly hard to switch into, pick wrong and you give Salamence a +1 attack boost, letting it fuck you up even harder. Hardly seen but still massively strong, Salamence should never, ever be ignored.

    Lol and come im bored heres some stuff I would like to build teams around with the communities help but its unlikely to happen, Still, it would be very cool if it did!!!!

    Tailwind Team


    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 60 HP / 252 SAtk / 196 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Calm Mind
    - Tailwind

    Random set I pulled out of the Creative Movesets thread back when Excadrill was OU but it worked pretty damn well. Suicune is bulky as fuck and can easily pull off a tailwind to set up a sweeper or something. I actually think a Tailwind Team would be fairly cool as a lot of the Metagame relies on revenging things (usually with Scarf Landorus) seeing as there are so many dangerous threats that can boost there speed. Tailwind would allow us to run powerful hitters (like Salamence) with no fear of being revenged outside of Priority (which sucks). It might be overly simplistic tho (set up tailwind, sent in sweeper 1, 2 kill kill kill, refresh tailwind repeat) or hard to build but it still sounds fun!!!

    Gravity Team

    Metagross @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Gravity
    - Meteor Mash
    - Agility

    HEHEHE I love Gravity so WHOOO

    I highly doubt its going to receive support since its gimmicky, hard to use etc etc but fuck I would PAY to see a CCAT Gravity team :)


    Guys please post talking about whats been nommed, what you like, what you don't like. Most use have a fair amount of maturity so there should be no flaming but getting a decent amount of discussion around some sets that have been nomed not only indirectly brainstorms some ideas we might have if team building that particular set, it also helps Pocket and myself, if (and only if) we end up having to cull noms to get a decent poll for you all. So come on guys, tell us what noms you like, ideas you might have, and again, keep those noms coming, this period will not last for very long so if you want to nom something, get in quick!
  8. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 27, 2009
    Great post ginganinja.

    The three main Pokemon I'd like to support are Abomasnow, Medicham, and Zoroark (I won't comment on my own submission).

    Abomasnow is a Pokemon I really liked back in gen 4. To start with I used it alongside Walrein as some sort of hail supporter, and initially considered it to be a bit of a liability, but late on it really began to show its usefulness, making it onto my teams on its own merit. The key here was the ability to wall Grass, Water, and Electric-types, and with rotom-w everywhere, this seems to be useful again. Leech Seed + Protect is just fantastic against the likes of Scizor; an apparently safe switch into an Abomasnow can leave it at 50% HP while Aboma just sits at 100%. And in this gen, we have a far greater number of options as far as hail goes, Kyurem allowing us to go on the offensive rather than attempting simply to stall.

    Life Orb Medicham is pretty much my favourite set out there at the moment. Pocket really didn't give a good enough idea of just how powerful this thing is. Yes, it 2HKOes walls, but more importantly Hi Jump Kick just OHKOes a bunch of Pokemon you would normally consider reasonably bulky. Yesterday, it cleanly OHKOed a Metagross, for instance, and it OHKOes Scizor and Rotom-W all the time. Seriously, just look up the set on Honko's offensive coverage calculator, and you'll get an idea of just how destructive it is. Also, you'll find out that you can kill weavile 7 times over. Take that, +4 def Weavile behind screens!

    Also, Pocket didn't mention a nature. I'd move for Jolly, though you do miss out on a chance to OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale and a chance t OHKO SpD Jirachi. We'll see about that one.

    Zoroark requires some very thoughtful teambuilding, and can potentially be very useful. Thinking about the entry hazard damage that every pokemon takes, thinking about pokemon using the same moves as zoroark, thinking about which Pokemon could have their counters removed by Zoroark; the scope for intricate teambuilding is enormous. I agree with ginganinja about protect, too. I'd hope we could find an opportunity to discuss changing that at a fairly early stage.

    Some other stuff:

    • I'd prefer a different Mienshao set to either of those posted. I'd like to see Grass Knot or Substitute rather than the pointless Fake Out, and I don't really want to use the Baton passer. Mienshao is seriously frail.
    • Doom Desire no longer has perfect neutral coverage, so Specs Jirachi is kind of bad now. You'd be better off using a different boosting item, if they work now (they didn't before).
    • Ginganinja is right about Sub Hydreigon. That set is very good and very common; not really what we're looking for.
  9. Nubagator


    Aug 16, 2010
    I really like the Heracross idea. He began to fall from grace in 4th gen, but the shiny new toys, like Excadrill, Volcarona, and Terrakion, combined with the insane popularity of gliscor with excadrill running around sort of pushed Heracross out of any OU usage. His interesting stab options keep things like latias and celebi from switching in to take Close combat, and I think in general he would be a fun overlooked mon to build around.

    Kind of not a fan of using Aboma, since while not popular at all, there have been plenty of great hail teams that have peaked very high if not No.1, such as Stunt's and Delko's respective teams.

    Aside from that Medicham looks really cool, and so does choice specs Jirachi. Fun stuff CCAt, I think I may try to contribute a bit this time around.

    EDIT: forgot specs Jellicent, that would be a ton of fun as well.
  10. bubbly


    Dec 4, 2009
    I'd really prefer to aim to use pokemon which haven't already had strong teams built around them, or which would tend to create teams which are fresh and original. Zoroark, Staraptor and Heracross are all great noms. Staraptor because Flying is just about the best offensive typing in this meta, Heracross because like ginga said a heck of a lot of teams rely on Psychics to beat Fighting types. That said I've never been a fan of Bulk Up Hera, I'd prefer to go Choiced, or maybe just a Substitute + 3 attacks set or something.

    On the other hand Heracross is getting Moxie sometime in the future so it might be better to wait for that because it could make a Heracross team a lot more effective.
  11. King Serperior

    King Serperior

    Sep 15, 2011
    I am seeing absolutly no love for Darmanitan D:

    His power is almost unrivaled in the sun!! Ttar can't switch in easily at all....

    If I had to choose with Darmanitan not being loved, I'll nominate Heracross!!
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja How do I live? How do I breathe?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 13, 2009
    Darmanitan is exceptionally good under sun, and many classic sun teams use him as a powerful revenge killer. I think the biggest problems with Darmanitan, is that Sun teams usually follow a pretty strict style, and Darmanitan often lacks room, as well as Volcarona generally being looked at as a superior choice on a sun team for a Fire sweeper.

    I fully agree with Bubbly in that ideally, what I pick will prolly be fresh and original (even tho this means that Mence prolly won't get my vote) as not only does it make the team more fun, (and seriously, when your having fun with a team you play 100% better with it!!!) but it could also lead to shifting the metagame which can only be a good thing.

    Just a few general questions that I personally am interested in

    #1: I have not actually used Medicham in OU before as I always felt that it was very slow and frail. Could someone tell me how effective it is against more offensive teams, which might be more fast paced than a standard Balance Team which Medicham might to well again?

    on Hail

    #2: Hail was, lets face it, the superior choice in CCAT #1, however people voting for Kyurem instead of Abomasnow (which Kyurem would have been an excellent partner to) resulted in Nidoking winning the majority vote. I have no doubt that Abomasnow will be popular again (heck, at this stage I am seriously considering voting for it) however, as I and a few others have pointed out, Hail Teams such as Delko's Christmas are exceptionally good. Therefore, (and I feel we should iron this issue out before voting) as a community do we feel that, in the possibility that Abomasnow gets picked, we could make a successful Hail Team that is not overly similar to other, successful Hail Teams in the RMT forum? Yes / No / Why etc etc

    Some of you have made some great posts already (not you Pocket you have a high ego already!), and there have been some great noms going around, so well done!
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 22, 2004
    ginganinja with an attitude >:o

    Good input, guys. I am particularly interested in Wobbuffet and Zoroark, since there's yet any well-known teams effectively wielding these mons (unlike Snunch's NP Mew, Stone Cold's Sub Hydreigon, Delko's Sub Kyurem, and LO Sharpedo). The mons I listed in brackets are certainly uncommon in general, but are well-known within our community. One particularly familiar set that I don't mind trying is DD Scrafty, since I have yet to see a well-executed Scrafty team.

    Not only are they rare sights, Wobbuffet and Zoroark have specialized abilities that will make team-building a very interesting and creative process, as well, which is perfect for a project that calls for many heads to construct a single team.

    ginganinja has brought up a good point that touches my issue - Hail teams are certainly underplayed, but it is not exactly uncharted territory in OU, since handful of successful Hail teams, such as Delko's team, have provided us with great knowledge of the playstyle. If we ever choose to use a Hail team, I prefer we not pair Abomasnow with Kyurem. AfroThunderRule's particular Abomasnow's set is also intriguing, so Hail would still be an interesting concept to work with. It's up to you guys to make this decision, however.

    ginganinja, I have not personally used Medicham, but it has 80 Speed, which is usable. It is mainly a wall-breaker that picks off 1 or 2 pokes to facilitate a sweep from our cleaners. As jc104 has shown in his log, Medicham is capable of sweeping, thanks to Sub allowing it to land a lethal blow on faster Sweepers. Medicham is frail, but that matters little when Medicham is not giving the opponent a chance to land a hit. Pure Power allows it to take out mons before they could make a move, and Medicham forces defensive plays to put up a Substitute for extra cover.

    Thanks for the smooth start, guys! Get your noms in!!!
  14. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex Mew is blue
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 28, 2010
    I really like the idea of zoroark being the focus of the CCAT. It has nearly zero usage in the upper part of the ladder, and I think building a team around illusion would be neat. If a team is built around zoroark in a way that accounts for likely scenarios that will play out starting from the beginning of the match, it could be pretty effective. My only problem with zoroark is that it will require very precise play, or you'll just end up with a wasted team slot, since it can't switch in on anything and you'll always have to wonder whether or not your opponent expects it to be zoroark. The beautiful thing about zoroark, though, is that it can maim whatever switches in on the pokemon being illusioned, potentially preventing your opponent from dealing with something else on your team (IE the opponent switches in celebi on a supposed rotom-w, only to eat a night daze/flamethrower
  15. SlimMan


    Aug 28, 2010
    Time to post my thoughts. I was going to do another nom, but I really want to throw my full weight behind HeraBOSS.

    I absolutely echo ginga and Pocket's concerns about seome of the higher profile sets - such as Sub Hydreigon and NP Mew. While they are definitely not used as much, they are not exactly forgotten wonders (we all know how people flood the ladder with the team whenever a famous battler does an RMT).

    I like the idea of Zoroark, but I urge caution behind it. Zoroark is all about opening up the opponent for another Pokemon. With Illusion, a well-played Zoroark can eliminate a crucial counter, allowing one of your other Pokemon to sweep. But we have to be careful behind this, because it would be very easy to put our focus behind supporting the sweeper, and not playing to Zoroark's strengths. With Zoroark opening the hole for another Pokemon, we must be careful not to make it all about the other one, and leave Zoroark in the dust. I worry that the spotlight may not be all on him if we choose Zoroark.

    I have the same fears about a Hail team that have already been expressed, and I actually carry this fear for just about any weather team we may choose to use. But unless the weather inducer os the 5th or 6th member of the team, I am afraid of our CCAT becoming formulaic, and failing to adequately represent the great creativity in this community. Not all weather teams are the same, to be sure, but if for example we chose a Ninetales as the 2nd mon, there's a concern that there would be nothing then to differentiate our hypothetical Sun team from the dozens of others on the ladder. That's why I tend to stray toward weatherless for the CCAT, or at least until 4/5 members are already chosen.

    I don't think it's necessary for me to talk about every single nomination. But these are my greatest fears regarding our Pokemon selection. I really want us to choose a Pokemon that is not only underrated, but lends itself well to this project. Of course, almost any Pokemon can work as a CCAT Pokemon, but some Pokemon are easier to lose the objective of the CCAT on than others, and I don't want us to fall into the trap. Which is to say, simply be aware of that if we decide to go with such Pokemon.
  16. Ningildo


    May 3, 2011

    Medicham looks really awesome to use, wrecking everything with HJK, but I think some paralysis support would make it even deadlier. Think about it. If your team is paralyzed, your only way to kill something before it kills you is priority. But due Substitute...yeah. It could also fit on a offensive team to wreck stall, since most of those teams are slow.

    I have actually never used Zoroark before, though it seems promising with it's mindgames, possibly even more frustrating then Houndoom with it's Pursuit / Sucker Punch trap. This is requires a massive skill in prediction and a LOT of knowledge of the meta in order to reach its max potential, however, due Zoroark's low defenses. Scouting for movesets, items etc is also required. You don't want to lose to a random Scarf Scizor, do you know?

    Now, what I'm looking forward to is EspyJUMP and HeraBOSS being on a CCAT team (still holding out a shred of hope for my own set, though!). Espeon's BP+CM AKA EspyJump set is rarely ever used. Maybe it's the massive amount of strong Physical priority running rampant. That's the only reason I can think of this set being nowhere, as Espeon's the best Baton Passer in the entire game thanks to an immunity to all sorts of moves that plague the other BPers, such phazing, Taunt, etc. The reason why I think this won't fly, though, is because it might promote building a BP team, which suck.

    HeraBOSS on the other hand...well, [insert what others said here], really. It working alongside other Fighting types is, imo, the best way to utilize it, as now pokemon such as Lucario aren't forced to carry Crunch for Reuniclus, Slowbro etc. It can also double as a status absorber to take those Wow's aimed at the other fighters. Night Slash maybe for something like Jellicent too...
    Yep, this guy is definitely gonna contend for the centerpiece of this CCAT.

    Now, I would post a set or two here, but then I would make voting harder then it already is. And I don't want to give competition to myself...:S
  17. The QWAZ

    The QWAZ

    Jan 15, 2012
    no love for victini so far =(
    if i had to say anything other than that i would go with is kingdra, i was just swept by one and it was lethal, it was a bit weak out of rain though.
    still victini is the biggest boss ever, it really is that good
  18. Choice Socks

    Choice Socks

    Jan 15, 2010
    This set makes no sense???

    and seriously no love for reunicus?
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Thank you all guys!
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    I fully agree with Giganinja. Abomasnow should only be chosen if we feel that we, as a community, could build a Hail team different than the already existing successful ones, which considering the restrictive nature of Hail teams, is not so easy. So, imo it would be best not to pick him.

    As said by others NP Mew and Shell Smash Cloyster, in addition to Aboma, may be somewhat rare pokes, but teams that use them them in their biggest potential have already been made. So it would be better not to use them, so that our team will be truly original, showing us the potential of sets never truly explored before.

    I fully support Staraptor, HeraBoss, Zoroark, Wobbuffet and SpecsRachi though.

    Staraptor is a true nuke, and can easily destroy anything not named Jirachi or Skarmory. Or you can kill Skarmory with Final Gambit after SR, opening the road for another sweeper.

    Zoroark and the mind games that he offers sounds really intriguing, and i feel that will show to a lot of players how to use him better, since he is a very underused and underrated poke, since most people are going for the easy tactics and don't have the prediction and the nerve to play the mind games that this poke offers. The Protect set seems the best as of now.

    Giganinja did a good job explaining how SpecsRachi is played and i must admit that in theory he sounds pretty damn good and fun to use, so i would really support using him.

    Btw here is another Staraptor set that hasn't been posted and is quite good:

    [​IMG]@ Choice Scarf

    Nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Ability: Reckless
    -Brave Bird
    -Close Combat
    -Final Gambit

    The main draw of Final Gambit is OHKOing Skarmory after SR, if you are at full health of 'course, opening the way for a whole bunch of physical sweepers such as Landorus and Dragonite. If you manage to keep SR off the field, Final Gambit is a superb nuke, that will ohko almost any mon in offensive teams that isn't a Ghost-type, and is pretty unexpected too. Obviously this Staraptor should be used alongside a Rapid Spin user or a fast Taunter and a SR setter. Forretress, Deoxys-D and Donphan are all excellent choices.
    Staraptor is generally a very good wall breaker capable of ruining both offensive and defensive teams. If we want, we could couple him with Dugtrio or Magnezone, to make the elimination of his few counters a piece of cake.
  20. eriados


    Feb 15, 2011
    I didn't realize Sub Hydreigon has been in an RMT. I think I'll offer another submission then: Specs Yanmega

    Yanmega @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
    Nature: Modest
    - Bug Buzz
    - Air Slash
    - U-Turn
    - HP Ground / Giga Drain / filler

    Yanmega really has not been noteworthy in Gen V. It sees little usage in UU and is banned in RU. What people seem to have forgotten is that the combination of 116 base Special Attack + Choice Specs + Tinted Lens, one of the best abilities a sweeper could wish for, basically blows stuff up. For those who don't know, Tinted Lens doubles the power of resisted attacks, meaning that Yanmega wields unresisted coverage in merely its own STAB attacks. Even incredibly bulky Pokemon such as Heatran face a 2HKO.

    Show Hide
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Air Slash vs 4HP/0SpDef Flash Fire Heatran (Neutral): 54% - 64% (178 - 210 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Offensive Heatran)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Air Slash vs 252HP/252SpDef Flash Fire Heatran (+SpDef): 33% - 39% (129 - 153 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. (Specially Defensive Heatran)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Air Slash vs 252HP/252SpDef Sturdy Skarmory (+SpDef): 50% - 59% (169 - 199 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Specially Defensive Skarmory)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Air Slash vs 252HP/0SpDef Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 74% - 88% (250 - 295 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Physically Defensive Skarmory)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/224SpDef Jirachi (+SpDef): 40% - 48% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. (Specially Defensive Jirachi)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Jirachi (Neutral): 55% - 65% (223 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (SubCM Jirachi)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/168SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 48% - 57% (171 - 202 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 22% chance to 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Gliscor (Neutral): 79% - 94% (283 - 334 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Levitate Latias (Neutral): 97% - 115% (356 - 422 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 87% chance to OHKO. (CM Latias)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 248HP/0SpDef Water Absorb Jellicent (Neutral): 53% - 62% (214 - 253 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Tentacruel (Neutral): 52% - 62% (192 - 226 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz in Sandstorm vs 252HP/192SpDef Tyranitar (+SpDef): 56% - 66% (228 - 270 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Specially Defensive TTar)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0SpDef Tyranitar (Neutral): 87% - 103% (300 - 354 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 22% chance to OHKO. (ScarfTar)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 248HP/8SpDef Scizor (Neutral): 77% - 91% (267 - 315 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Choice Band Scizor)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/216SpDef Scizor (Neutral): 61% - 72% (211 - 250 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Bulky Boosting Scizor)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/4SpDef Water Absorb Politoed (Neutral): 58% - 68% (223 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 144HP/0SpDef Ninetales (Neutral): 69% - 81% (223 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Sunny Day Ninetales)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 56% - 67% (223 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Sturdy Forretress (+SpDef): 62% - 73% (220 - 259 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/80SpDef Sturdy Forretress (Neutral): 84% - 99% (300 - 353 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Physically Defensive Forry)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Storm Drain Gastrodon (+SpDef): 42% - 50% (183 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 4HP/0SpDef Multiscale Dragonite (Neutral): 34% - 40% (111 - 132 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. (w/ Multiscale up)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 4HP/0SpDef Dragonite (Neutral): 68% - 81% (223 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (w/o Multiscale)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 112HP/0SpDef Levitate Rotom (Neutral): 78% - 92% (211 - 250 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Bulky Attacker)

    As you can see, Bug Buzz flat out 2HKOs everything that doesn't 4x resist it with Stealth Rock (Blissey and Chansey don't count). Air Slash can cover the rest (Heatran, Lucario, Gengar, Toxicroak, Infernape, Skarmory). U-Turn is a good move to have on a choiced Pokemon. The last slot is really up to your choice, since Yanmega doesn't need anything there at all. There are some obstacles for Yanmega to overcome before it can blow holes in a team: Stealth Rock, and Blissey and Chansey, the bane of all special attackers. Stealth Rock is a simple matter. Team support such as Rapid Spinners, Magic Bounce, Taunt or lots of offensive pressure will not let Stealth Rock hinder Yanmega's switching. Team support can fix up Yanmega's issues and allow in to shine again in the OU metagame.

    Show Hide

    Totally with SlimMan on this one. Though Hail teams do not see much use, it doesn't seem like there is much variance in what they are trying to accomplish. In addition, Abomasnow really would not be the focus of the team, which would shift to sweepers or stallers like Froslass/Mamoswine/Kyurem/Walrein/etc. I also want to remind people that it is particularly difficult to build a team around a supporting Pokemon. That said, I like the idea of Bubbly's Deo-D, Ningildo's Mixed Kingdra, typon77's Sub Roost Staraptor because they all go outside the standard concept of a "sweeper". Katakiri's Swampert interests me.
  21. Nubagator


    Aug 16, 2010
    I'm going to put up something a bit odd:
    Aerodactyl sees just about no usage in OU whatsoever. With the advent of Team Preview his main niche as a suicide stealth rock lead has disappeared, leaving him forgotten and unwanted. The only time you will ever behold this prehistoric wonder in battle, is at the bottom of the ladder against a random noob, who still leads with it (or if you're playing Xtrashine). While most competitive players completely disregard Aero, he can actually take advantage of that, since nobody prepares for him.

    item: life orb Nature: Jolly
    252atk / 252 speed / 4 SPdef
    ~ Stone Edge
    ~ EarthQuake
    ~ Taunt
    ~ Roost

    He out-speeds the entire un-boosted metagame, and with surprisingly good offenses and decent coverage, can rip through all sorts of frail Pokemon. between Stone edge and EQ he OHKOs tons of stuff, and 2HKOs everything in OU aside from: Gliscor, Breloom, Forretress, Skram, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Virizion, Jellicent,Reuniclus, Scrafty, Conkeldurr, Donphan, ferrothorn, Politoed, and Chansey.

    While that may seem like a lot of things that can handle him, Taunt allows him to easily breakdown some of the more common counters such as skarmory, Forretress, Chansey and Toxic/sub/protect/EQ Glis with Roost his longevity is vastly extended, and in the sand his Ho-hum base 75 spDef gets bulked up enough to make him an excellent switch-in to things like heatran. On top of this his massive speed allows him to outpace stuff like Dragonite, and bulky Volcarona even after a DD or QD. All in all I feel Aero has loads of ignored Potential, and should be considered for this project.

    Very good points @below
  22. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 27, 2009
    I must say, I'm really perplexed by the support for that Heracross set. I don't get it. At all. Gave it a quick spin on the ladder, and .... just no. A Bulk Up user with no recovery whatsoever, relying on such a terrible move as Low Kick. People calling it HeraBoss makes me, well, cross.

    Heracross as a Pokemon, on the other hand, was not too bad. Bulk Up, and especially Low Kick were just really odd choices in my opinion. I constantly found myself wanting Swords Dance and the power of Close Combat. It's rare that Heracross is actually going to sweep outright, and so it's very much appreciated to be able to dent stuff significantly. Plus, as with my objection to aggron, we already had a Heracross CCAT in gen 4. Of course, there is no rule against it, but I thought part of the point of the CCAT was to give a less appreciated pokemon a chance. Heracross kind of already had his.
  23. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 24, 2010
    I have to say I'm really liking the idea of using Medicham, or even moreso Staraptor. I really don't see why no one uses Staraptor. It's fast, ridiculously powerful and whenever it appears on the other team I cringe, knowing something is probably going to die. Medicham seems much the same, only with less speed and more power. Still, if I were to put my weight behind something it'd be Staraptor, as it's less likely to have the spotlight stolen away from it due to being a slight bit more reliable. It also requires less support, meaning it's more likely to get USED in most matches, as rarely do you get the chance to fully set up things the way you want to in a match.

    Medicham does get props for absolute obscurity though; I know that prior to this thread, that if I saw Medicham on my opponent's team I'd laugh my ass off, right before getting a Pokemon killed. It has that combination of surprise factor and actual ability to DO something with that surprise that really matters. The question is whether or not we can figure out how to keep it alive to smash things or not. Screens anyone?
  24. ginganinja

    ginganinja How do I live? How do I breathe?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 13, 2009
    @ SlimMan

    That is really an interesting point you bring up about Zoroark. Granted, I contend that Zoroark is designed to lure in and destroy counters for its illusion buddy, if it succeeds in doing so then its does its job. I do see your point however, that Zoroark can easily cause the community to lose focus on ZOROARK. If Zoroark gets picked, obviously Pocket and I will endeavour to make sure that we are discussing Zoroark rather than its partner.

    @ Choice Socks

    That Deoxys D set is designed to stall out attacking moves with Pressure, while setting up shit like entry hazards like Spikes, and Toxic Spikes to gradually stall your opponent out. The actual set is'nt a bad one as iv tested it out (I tested a lot of these noms out) but it does require a defensive team I feel to truly pull it off. Kinda something I personally dislike being an offensive sort of player but each to his own I guess.

    @ skidilidy

    That Specs Yanmega looks really cool. If people can make Volcarona work with a x4 Stealth Rock weakness I feel certain that we could make Yanmega work!!!


    Good points regarding Heracross. I tested Bulk Up as well. I couldn't quite use it effectively but judged that more as the fault of the team rather than the fault of Heracross. I do think, however, that past CCATs made in Gen 4 should NOT be taken into account. This is a new generation people, whats viable in another generation may / may not be as viable as it was in the previous generation, heck, something might have gotten an upgrade in B/W that it didn't have before (looking at you Cloyster).

    I'd also like to encourage people to actually test out some of these suggestions. I've tested most of them in my spare time (which I really shouldn't have done since I have assignments due), jc104 has done so and brought forth some valid points, and heck, I bet a few of you have done this as well. Giving some of these pokemon a test run gives us a good handle on what actually WORKS in this metagame. It would be cool to build a team around DerpFish or whatever its called but rather pointless if the pokemon doesn't work. So yea, I do urge you to try out some of the noms you really like, it doesn't have to be anything fancy (although many of these noms work with the Dark Horse Project) but it gives us a really good idea of how the nominated pokemon works in the metagame, how viable it is, and (if said pokemon is selected) it frees up room for suggestions from John Smith like "Yo I tired Heracross a week or so again and i really likes Reuniclus as a partner" which help during the team building stage.


    if you get a moment feel free to test some of these noms so we can get good feedback over how good they are.


    I was hoping that we could avoid something boring and bog standard as Dual Screens + Medicham + 4 other sweepers x_x (I hate screens in a CCAT since it shifts perspective of the team often shifting focus away from Medicham. And if your using screens just for Medicham then I feel its kind of a waste.
  25. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 27, 2009
    I just thought I'd say that I've never felt the need to use Medicham with Screens; it's very useable without. I wrote an OU analysis for it recently and hence have tested it a lot with numerous different sets, and I never really felt the need. Dual Screens are better with setup sweepers in my opinion anyway.

    I'd also have to disagree totally with that point about Zoroark. It could be considered a supporting Pokemon, but the point is that it is unique and underrated, and is the kind of Pokemon you absolutely need to build your team around. Every facet of your team needs to be carefully selected in order to complete the deception. The pokemon does not have to sweep to be the centre of the team.

    Also, I think I may be submitting an alternative Heracross set when I've decided what the best one is. I liked the way it was able to switch into stuff, and its typing is I think rather useful in the current metagame.

    Finally, I would like to know how the voting for the sets is going to work. Ideally, I'd like to see some sort of IRV (alternative vote), preferably quite a detailed one. I've noticed some complaints about vote splitting between Kyurem and Abomasnow, for instance, which would easily be avoided by implementing such a system. I've got lots of time on my hands if you'd need help with adding up the votes for this sort of thing, given that it's quite complicated.

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