1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ginganinja, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. Pikapwnd

    Pikapwnd

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Messages:
    383
    Just notifying I'm slightly chaning my vote. as after testing tailwind suicune, and tailwind in general is sadly. Underwhelming.
  2. The QWAZ

    The QWAZ

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    527
    When will this stage end?
  3. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,780
    This has been relatively inactive for quite a while, and the vote is not at the moment especially close (or at least I don't think it is), so I'd say moving on to the next stage would be appropriate.
  4. Jinzha

    Jinzha

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    49
    Staraptor (Choice Scarf)
    Heracross (Bulk Up)
    Raikou (Special Weather Attacker)
    Omastar (Shell Smash)
    Nidoqueen (Toxic Spikes, 2)


    My vote, from 1 to 5 ofcourse. The first 2 because they're beasts and I want to use them. The other three just because I want to use them, I don't know how strong they are.
  5. Soulous

    Soulous

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2010
    Messages:
    48
    1. Jirachi (Choice Specs & Doom Desire)
    2.
    Zoroark (Illusion)
    3.
    Metagross (Gravity)
    4. Medicham (Substitute)
    5.
    Salamence (Wish)
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    OK, guys, the results are IN:

    The Final Result

    3. Staraptor (Sub Roost) - 8 votes
    2. Kingdra - 9 votes
    1. Zoroark - 19 votes

    20 votes did not make it to the final count, since their choices were all eliminated in previous rounds of counting. Thanks for the submissions, guys - we had 56 votes, which was enough to make the call. Sorry, Jinzha and Soulous, but your votes were not included in the poll count :(

    Congratulations to Katakiri and his Zoroark for being selected for OU CCAT!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Zoroark @ Life Orb
    Trait: Illusion
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Flamethrower
    - Protect

    Stage 2 - Finalizing Team Checklist

    Before we dive into creating our teams. I want to bring our attention to the Team Checklist. We will use this checklist to help address the offensive and defensive threats of the current metagame, and we will rely on this tool to get through the entire teambuilding stage. Although I believe that the team checklist looks good in its current state, I would like you all to review the checklist and finalize it for us.

    Here are a few things to remember

    1. The team selected for this checklist must give us the greatest understanding of that particular team archetype. Just by looking at that team, a person can understand the major characteristics of said playstyle. Bottom line: don't simply pick teams that are good / popular. Bog standard teams are probably best suited for this.

    2. The teams are to be taken loosely. Don't mind the specific details of the team. Some team may have Deoxys-S or Thundurus, yet they are selected because they display the defining characteristics of the team playstyle. Treat these teams as a general template for that particular team archetype and don't take them literally. During our teambuilding phase, one can easily replace Deoxys-S for Deoxys-D, a Roserade in a Sun team for Chlorophyll Venusaur, etc to make their discussions.

    The Plan
    • In the next 2-3 days, nominate any RMT threads that you believe are better exemplar of a particular playstyle than what ginganinja and I have selected already.
    • Provide an explanation of what makes your submission better than the team pre-selected
    • The following 2-3 days would then be used to vote and finalize the team checklist from the nominated teams!

    This will be a short stage, so let's get started!

    Click Here: Team Checklist

    *******
    [​IMG]
  7. Smith

    Smith is a 90's bitch
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,341
    I take it by the silence that we think the team checklist is fine XD
  8. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    Messages:
    651
    This may just be me and my preference for this style, but a few more examples of Balanced or Bulky-Offence teams might be good. I'll browse the RMT section for some to post.
  9. SlimMan

    SlimMan

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,474
    Hi Pocket. I told you I'm always here!

    I'm a little disappointed in the choice of CCAT mon (sorry Katakiri!), but my preferences are irrelevant - we're still gonna make the best Zoroark-based team ever!

    To be honest, I think this stage is a little redundant, Pocket. You yourself said that the specifics of the teams on our threatlist is not important, that it's the style the team embodies we ought to be watching out for. Well, then we shouldn't spend our time trying to find the best example of a team archetype possible. All we need out of our threatlist is to show us the basics of the archetype, and so that we can check off our ability to deal with that type as we build the team. So while it's definitely important to have good example of each style, we don't need the perfect exemplar, just one good enough for our purposes. You and ginga have already done that, no doubt.
    In short, I'm questioning why we're spending time looking for the "perfect examples" for our threatlist, when we just need it for reference to make sure our team can handle the metagame. It seems unnecessary.

    I apologize if I seem like I'm criticizing your system Pocket. You've proven that you are a very capable CCAT leader. I don't want to usurp your authority or anything. I simply don't understand this stage though.
  10. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,780
    Yeah I'd have to agree with slimman here. The checklist is perfectly fine, and perhaps not even necessary at all.
  11. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,253
    Posting to say that i agree with the above posters, in that i don't quite get what this stage really accomplishes. The list seems good enough for our purposes. Short of another team style popping up in the next few days (yeah...right...that'll happen...), i think we're good to go. :)
  12. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    958
    Actually, I think U-Turn Offense is very much worth noting. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3456614

    U-turn teams get the jump on opponents by using U-turn or Volt Switch, scoring them momentum, scouting for switch-ins, and checking those switch ins, all in one turn. Playing against and using such teams makes the game much more prediction based than they naturally are as if the opponent predicts a U-turn and stay in on something that has a Super Effective move up it's sleeve, it can drastically change the tide of battle, but so can predicting the U-turn correctly.


    I also think it's worth mentioning, because she has Protect, Zoroark can scout-out those teams and snipe it's members using her Illusion.

    For instance, let's say Zoroark is the lead in this situation, disguised as her teammate Celebi.
    The other player sends out Rotom-W as their lead Pokemon.
    Zoroark uses Protect to scout and sees that Rotom-W is staying in on Celebi and Volt Switching, leading to the fair assumption that it's Choice Scarfed. You can now switch to your Ground-type Pokemon and set up Stealth Rock, or whatever you need to take advantage of the Choice-locked Rotom.

    On the other hand, you can use Illusion to appear to lead with a slow setup Pokemon like Ferrothorn and, depending on how your team looks, you can lure out Scizor as their lead.
    Use Protect to scout against Scizor, just like any normal Ferrothorn would, then if they stay in and U-turn, liquify Scizor with Flamethrower. Just beware of the semi-rare Choice Scarf Scizor.
  13. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,676
    I think the threat list is fine for the most part, but the one thing we REALLY need a full out archetype for is full-on Volt-Turn offense, where 3-5 of the Pokemon on the team use either Volt Switch or U-Turn. These teams are quite common in the current metagame, and we NEED to be able to address them, not just with a Zoroark team but any team in general. There should be a good RMT somewhere of one, seeing as before these teams became seen as the bane of variety in the metagame they were considered an interesting strategy. I'm not sure how likely we are to find a newer RMT of it, seeing as most people aren't exactly proud of using Volt-Turn to ladder these days...

    So yeah, Katakiri has the right idea. The team we already have with just Scizor and Rotom-W isn't enough to fully embody this playstyle. Not sure about the one he posted though, as running a team ENTIRELY of Volt-Turn abusers is rare as hell.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    Thanks for the feedback, guys. Ginganinja was also against going through this extra step, but I find it necessary. Mainly because Team Checklist is going to be a crucial tool for us during the team-building phase, and we will be using it all the time. Since it's such an important part of CCAT, I wanted to make sure you guys look through them and understand the teams, as well as have a chance to voice your opinions on them.

    The Team Checklist is essentially the main thing I am experimenting in this CCAT. If a team can break through the defenses of a stereotypical stall or a balanced team posted on the Team Checklist and check all the offensive threats in offensive / balanced teams listed, then we just created a solid team. Unlike threat list, the team checklist showcases these threats in the context of a team - our team must not only be able to beat individual threats, but must also overcome offensive and defensive cores presented in these teams. I'd like to see the list as a threatlist on steroids.

    I decided to do this, because our previous CCAT team was initially weak to quite a few common threats, which I believe could have been avoided with a concise team checklist such as this.

    I hope you all can better appreciate the importance of the Team Checklist. The discussions around the teammate noms will solely revolve around the Team Checklist, so make sure you understand how the listed teams function and are satisfied with the quality of the checklist. I am happy that most of you are content with the teams provided!

    Volt-Turn Offense

    Katakiri, I think Mortagua's team provides a much more contemporary picture of Volt-Turn offense - spikestacking & spinblocker, volt-turn trio (Rotom-W, Scizor, & Infernape), and a sweeper to clean the floor late-game. ToF's team does not even have hazards and solely rely on Volt-Turn offense to chip away at the opponent's team.

    I would give another day so we could start voting.
  15. Thundur

    Thundur

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    435
    Cool! I have never used Zoroark, so this should be a fun team.
  16. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,370
    I personally think that we will need a teammate that has the same move(s) as zoroark. While it may be counter productive in terms of coverage but it will help sell "illusion" more effectively
  17. typon77

    typon77

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,490
    I'm gonna have to disagree with Pillsbury. While that would help with the Illusion aspect, the team needs to be successful, and having two pokemon with the same roles seems rather mehh... Flamethrower and Focus Blast are both common moves, and Protect is useable on other mons as well, so we could work around just having some common moves on pokemon that could possibly have those moves in a set
  18. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,744
    Just mentioning but this is a scenario that I would really like to avoid. For starters, Protect is hardly ever seen on Celebi so it sends up a flare "Hey im running Zoroark". Not only that, you have essentially killed Zoroarks surprise, in exchange for (temporary) killing there momentum with a Ground Type switch in. I suppose you get that free turn but really, I dislike revealing Zoroark so easily.

    The Ferrothorn example is fine (although I still don't think its a good illusion partner due to shared weaknesses, and the fact that Zoroark cannot really switch into anything that attacks Ferrothorn sending up flares that its not actuallly, a Ferothorn) because it actually USES Protect. Ideally, I would rather run Nasty Plot or Swords Dance on Zoroark, getting a surprise kill on a "counter" thereby gaining a sweep. Something like Mew for example, or heck even Lucario seem like decent ideas. I just feel that if we go Protect, one of the only partners for Zoroark is going to be Protect Gengar or something (which actually looks to be a decent partner)
  19. bubbly

    bubbly

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    883
    Yeah I just want to check that we're going to be able to change Zoro's moveset slightly depending on the team members we give him. I haven't been a big fan of Protect on Zoroark, because none of the things which you can effectively copy will commonly use Protect. It doesn't matter if the opponent can potentially rationalise Protect on the thing you're imitating - the whole point is not to have any surprising move choices with will make them stop and think at all. Basically I'm completely agreeing with ginganinja - if we use Gengar, for instance, then I'd prefer to use Substitute etc.
  20. Nubagator

    Nubagator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    168
    I think there's a great deal of merit to protect. With Rocks, spikes, potential sand, and Zoro's own life orb, the jig is going to be up pretty quickly. any opponent paying attention can keep track of health, and should a terrakion that previously had 60% hp, suddenly come in with 80% they are already going to know it's Zoro. This is where I feel protect really shines, it turns it into a sort of slower MYSTICgar, and being able to scout whether Scizor is going for BP or U-turn is huge. That said I don't necesarily feel protect is superior to say NP or Sub, but I feel it's still one of our best options for a 4th move. But yeah based on teammates this could and probably should be changed if another option becomes more appealing.
  21. Choice Socks

    Choice Socks

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    215
    I feel Sub is the way to go over protect.
    There are plenty of pokes that run sub+3 attacks, meaning that it gives us more potential partners to run with him, and help him keep his illusion intact. Protect is a bit of a give away, not many offensive pokemon run it which restricts the potential partners that can be run with him.
  22. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,744
    Hmm, ideally, (assuming that we are running an offensive team) I would prefer Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. A Swords Dance Zoroark, disguised as Haxorus (for example), would murder Skarmory with Flamethrower, and destroy Latios expecting to outspeed with a STAB Sucker Punch. Sure, Scizor is going to switch in and Bullet Punch you but personally, id just include something like Lucario which can take a Bullet Punch, Swords Dance, and then nail Terrakion with Bullet Punch and beat Scizor with Close Combat.

    With Zoroark struggling with Fighting types something like Nasty Plot Mew, would be amazing as it can check Conkeldurr, roast Scizor with flamethrower, and threaten a sweep. In addition, Zoroark can fake a Nasty Plot set easily, or I guess it could just run Sucker Punch as a final attack to KO pokemon that attempt to revenge mew, or try to use their Psychic Typing to wall it out.

    Personally, I feel that the boosting moves (or Sucker Punch I guess) facilitate a more effective lure (which IMO, is the point of Zoroark) and force your opponent to adopt a playstyle that is better suited to you. For example, would your opponent dare Bullet Punch a +2 Zoroark, when it could actually be a +2 Lucario, would they even go to Scizor in the first place? (Don't nitpick the example please I am not suggesting Lucario is a perfect partner to Zoroark (especially as it resists SR weakening the viability of Illusion).

    Yes, I am not expecting Zoroark to pull off a wonderful sweep, because thats not its job, Zoroark is best used as a lure, partnered with something that teams only have a few counters for, that Zoroark can lure out, KO, and then set its partner up for a sweep. Merely revealing your boosting move introduces an element of doubt into your opponents mind as it forces uncertainty, and perhaps conservative play, which you can then exploit.
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    Time To Vote

    Lots of great discussion, guys. Let's finish this Team Checklist business by starting the voting process. Not many teams were nominated, so there wont be much to vote. The particular playstyle in question here are weatherless offense (pick 3 teams) and sun offense (pick 1 team). Make sure you choose the team or combination of teams that provides the best picture of its playstyle. I will reiterate again - these are meant to be loose templates of their team playstyle, so don't worry if a banned Pokemon or a weird move is included in the team. Pick the team(s) that best characterize its or their team archetype.

    Weatherless Offense (Pick 3)
    Sun Offense (Pick 1)
    The poll will close in 30 hours, so get your votes in, homies.
  24. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,744
    Mortagua
    ginganinja
    YoUserName
    French Orgy with Belzebuth

    (yes im biased but w/e I helped pick the teams and felt that we had everything covered)
  25. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    958
    Going back to what ginganinja said for a minute, I'm all for changing up the set, but Nasty Plo- really ANY setup Zoroark is bad excluding Sub with is fine, but loses the power of Life Orb or cuts it's HP permanently. It's far too frail to even dream of setting up. It's just like Swords Dance Weavile, it can work, but there's better and more reasonable things it could be running. The difference is that Weavile is much, much faster and far bulkier (never thought I'd say that) than Zoroark.

    If CCAT can make it work though, I'd love to try it out.

    But Protect Zoroark isn't about sweeping. It's scouting and choosing your battles. For me, Protect Zoroark doesn't get hit unless I have no other options or it's out-lived it's usefulness. That sounds like a massive exaggeration, but it's an absolute fact. It's just because of the way I play Zoroark. (I think I got nicked by a Celebi HP Fire the other day because I was feeling bally, but yeah.) Rotom Volt Switch is my team's Zoroark's entry into battle, if you see my Rotom Volt Switch and you switch out, it's a very safe bet the Pokemon coming in is Zoroark. That provides many chances for Zoroark to get it. But the big factor is that my Zoroark is surrounded by Bulky Teammates. After she Protects, I analyze the situation, find my options, and react in the safest way possible. I have a Pokemon for damn near anything you can throw at Zoroark. If things look even remotely sketchy, she's out of there. Maybe a few times during the match, will my Zoroark actually attack, but when it does, 9 times out of 10, I'm using her to KO something with that attack. (And 11 times out of 10, Focus Blast will miss) But that KO always matters and is more often than not, the reason I won a match.



    Here's a look into my thought process for using Zoroark.

    Let's say you're playing against me, (Humor me.) so you see this in team preview.:
    [​IMG]Ferrothorn[​IMG]Nidoqueen[​IMG]Zoroark[​IMG]Gyarados[​IMG]Chansey[​IMG]Rotom-W
    This is my actual ladder team, but I'm not gonna list sets since I don't want to derail anything with the specifics of this team.

    Two things should instantly come to mind when you see this: Stall & Zoroark.
    Zoroark of course sticks out like a sore thumb on a team with Nidoqueen, Chansey, and, to a lesser extent, Ferrothorn which otherwise screams stall; and Nidoqueen's presence further hammers in the idea of stall as she's know for Toxic Spikes.

    But, in the midst of these stall Pokemon, I have 3 wild cards: Zoroark, Gyarados, & Rotom-W. Each of these Pokemon can run about 4 different sets efficiently. Rotom could be Scarf, Expert Belt, or even a simple Defensive set. Gyarados would be Dragon Dance or, more likely based on the defensive nature of it's teammates, a Phazer with Dragon Tail or Roar. (It's both, but you wouldn't know that) And Zoroark could be Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Scarf, or Protect on top of the fact you don't know what she could be disguised as.

    I've pretty much set you up to have your mind set on what you think Zoroark will be and what I want you to believe Zoroark will be by having 2 Pokemon that cover all her weaknesses on each side of her, Gyarados & Nidoqueen. What?! Zoroark's NOT going to appear as them?! Por qué? Zoroark gains little to no benefit in disguising itself as one of them; or at least not Gyarados.

    What my Zoroark is disguised as is completely dependent on YOUR team.
    If I see a Rain team, my team will look like this:
    [​IMG]Rotom-W[​IMG]Zoroark[​IMG]Chansey[​IMG]Ferrothorn[​IMG]Gyarados[​IMG]Nidoqueen
    Nidoqueen is the least useful Pokemon on my team against Rain, so as far as I want you to know, Zoroark is Nidoqueen until Zoroark needs to attack to KO something.

    If I see a stall team with a Magnezone or a Rapid Spinner, my team will look like this:
    [​IMG]Rotom-W[​IMG]Zoroark[​IMG]Chansey[​IMG]Nidoqueen[​IMG]Gyarados[​IMG]Ferrothorn
    Ferrothorn can't do much with Mag or a Rapid Spinner around, so as far as I want you to know, that Ferrothorn that keeps switching in and out after Rotom-W Volt Switches, scouting your every move with Protect, is just a Ferrothorn.

    If I see a Volt-Turn core or a Deoxys-D, my team will look like this:
    [​IMG]Zoroark[​IMG]Nidoqueen[​IMG]Rotom-W[​IMG]Chansey[​IMG]Gyarados[​IMG]Ferrothorn
    I want to provoke a U-turn from Scizor, a Volt Switch from Rotom-W, or a Taunt from Deoxys-D so having Zoroark as lead Ferrothorn works perfectly. I get to scout and KO a big threat or Zoroark gets out without a scratch with it's Illusion perfectly intact against Rotom-W.


    Those are the only examples I'll bore you with now, but notice how I rearrange my entire team in team preview and how I have Nidoqueen in the second slot if I'm facing Volt-Turn. There is a method to this madness. I want Zoroark as far away from the last slot as possible. Nidoqueen in the second slot lets me switch to her after scouting a Rotom-W to block Volt Switch. After that, Zoroark is safely back in the 2nd Slot. And before anyone brings it up, I double switch out to Chansey after blocking the Volt Switch with Nidoqueen to scout for Hydro Pump. I'm entirely too bold, but I'm not gullible.

    The reason I switch my team's positions up is simple: I don't want my opponent to have ANY idea where or what Zoroark is until I'm ready to reveal it.

    That, ladies and gentlemen, is just the Zoroark thought process up to Team Preview alone.


    Team Building for Zoroark isn't as simple as 'Pair Zoroark with Gengar because the Synergy Pokedex says so!'. Type synergy has almost nothing to do with what makes "a good illusion partner". In fact, a good illusion partner has surprisingly little to do with building a team around Zoroark. That is where 90% of Zoroark teams fail. Believe me, I should know. I've seen and made (especially made) my fair share of bad Zoroark teams. (-that I'm not proud of) If your first thought when building a team around the Zoroark set of your choice is an "Illusion partner", you have already made a fatal mistake on only step 2.

    I know we're not even getting into to team building or anything yet so I don't want to go into detail with this, but again using my team as an example; my second team member was Intimidate Gyarados. It had absolutely nothing to do with Illusion, but everything to do with covering my frail Zoroark's weaknesses.

    Aaaanyway Voting:

    Mortagua (Spike-Stacking Volt-Turn Heavy Offense)
    YoUserName (Dual Screen Heavy Offense)
    ToF's (100% Volt-Turn Chain)
    French Orgy with Belzebuth by Grimm70

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)