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OU niche discussion

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Nozzle, Oct 19, 2012.

  1. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    (Sorry if my english is not perfect. Its not my first language. And im only 14 so who could blame me?)

    Okay. Before i start this i know smogon tiering is usage based but some things have niches in OU that can't be exploited in UU or lower so it would actually be worse in UU then in OU. I will give a few examples. First off:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Gastrodon. This guy was nu last generation and because storm drain got buffed. People found out that this guy is pretty good in countering water type attacks in OU which are extremely common due to rain being very very common. Even in rain itself its pretty useful. I completely agree with this. But at the start of this generation this guy was NU because his ability cant be exploited that well in the lower tiers. He seriously is worse in UU and in RU then in OU. In NU he does just as well but thats because hes just a good poke in NU. The sets this guy usually runs are:

    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature +SpD -Spe/Calm Nature +SpD -Atk
    -Earthquake/Earth power
    -Ice beam/Scald
    -Toxic
    -Recover

    Gastrodon @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 160 HP/36 Def/252 SpA/60 SpD
    Modest Nature +Spa -Atk
    -Surf
    -Ice Beam
    -Earth power
    -Hidden power grass

    Now onto the next poke.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Toxicroak. This pokemon heavily relies on weather due to his dry skin ability which heals 12,5% of his HP every turn in rain. In sun however it loses 12,5% every turn. When a dry skin poke is hit by a water attack it heals 25% of its health. When hit by a fire attack he would take 1,25 times more damage then he normally would. In OU this guy is a good sub user but it is however frail. Healing 18,5% (dry skin and black sludge) each turn helps alot but its still easily OHKO'ED. This guy absolutely HAS to be used in rain or hes not even worth using in OU. In UU where no poke has access to drizzle he has to rely on rain dance which is very easy to pull off. So he is worse in OU then in UU. The sets this guy usually runs are:

    Toxicroak @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 244 HP 252 Atk 12 Def
    Adamant nature +Atk -SpA
    -Bulk up
    -Substitute
    -Drain punch
    -Sucker punch

    Toxicroak @ Life orb/Black sludge
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EV's 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spe
    Adamant nature +Atk -Spa
    -Swords Dance
    -Sucker Punch
    -Cross Chop
    -Ice punch

    Next up:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Another guy that was nu at the start of this generation. Dugtrio. His sash reversal set did pretty well in nu. His ability arena trap is pretty good too. His speed is amazing. His attack is... meh. And he is very very VERY frail. His only niche in OU is to trap weather inducers and kill them allowing you to win the weather war. Yup thats pretty much it. -.- He's not even very good at this. He is only OU cuz he hits the usage mark. Sometimes i find it ridiculous that this thing is even OU. The sets that this... thing uses are:

    Dugtrio @ Focus sash/Fighting Gem/Expert Belt
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature +Spe -SpA
    -Stealth Rock
    -Reversal
    -Earthquake
    -Substitute/Stone edge/Sucker punch

    Dugtrio @ Choice Band/Life Orb
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Atk 32 Def 224 Spe
    Jolly Nature +Spe -Spa
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge
    -Shadow Claw
    -Sucker Punch

    Now something else:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Amoonguss. This guy seriously checks so many things in OU but in UU however its not so great. In RU it's a decent poke but the sap sippers running around doesnt help. In NU its a very good pokemon hitting very high on the usage stats because the most threatening pokemon in NU are physical and Amoonguss is fortunately a wall that can either go physical or specially defensive. It got Regenerator in the process of BW2 which helped it even more. It got a few good moves that it can take very good profit from. These include Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Spore, Stun Spore, Synthesis, Clear Smog, Hidden Power and more. In OU it can cripple and check many pokemon but it nearly doesnt hit the usage mark of rising to OU. Im completely fine with this because it is a solid pokemon in NU as it is. And it has use in OU too. But we dont want this thing raising all the way up to OU just like Dugtrio and Gastrodon did. Here is the set that Amoonguss utilizes very well in OU:


    Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP 28 SpA 228
    Calm Nature +SpD -Atk
    -Spore
    -Giga Drain
    -Stun Spore/Clear Smog
    -Sludge Bomb/Hidden power Ice

    Next up:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Chlorophyll and Sand Rush users. These guys are absolutely threatening in their respective weather. These guys are strong and have below average speed. But that gets really high due to their abilities. In lower tiers than OU permanent weather doesnt excist so they cant shine there like they do in OU. Stoutland is a very good Choice Band user due to his high speed in sand. Sandslash can Swords Dance and has access to EdgeQuake and even spin hazards away. Victreebell and Lilligant can both use Growth and even Quiver Dance in Lilligants case to sky rocket their special attack and attack. They both become a monstrous powerhouse that fire off really high powered Solarbeams and Hidden power fire's or Weather Balls. Victreebell even has the stats to go mixed. The sets that these guys use in their respective weather in OU are:

    I made this set myself but seriously guys go use this Lilligant:

    Lilligant @ Wise Glasses
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 HP 252 SAtk 4 Spe
    Modest Nature +SpA -Atk
    - SolarBeam/Giga Drain
    - Growth/Quiver Dance
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Sleep Powder

    And heres the smogon set:

    Lilligant (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 60 Def / 252 SAtk / 196 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power Fire / Ice / Rock

    Stoutland @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk 252 Spe 4 SpD
    Adamant Nature +Atk -SpA
    -Return
    -Wild Charge
    -Crunch/Pursuit
    -Superpower

    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 136 SAtk / 252 Spd / 120 Atk
    Naive Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Leaf Blade
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Growth
    - Weather Ball

    Sandslash @ Life Orb/Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Jolly Nature +Spe -SpA/Adamant Nature +Atk -SpA
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin/X-Scissor
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance

    I think this sums everything up. Im sure there are more kinds of pokes like this. But im sure you will find out by yourself. :) Ill add more pokemon when you suggest one i like to add.
  2. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego xXFaze GatoXx
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    This actually looks pretty interesting, although you may want to expand the description of each pokemon to include popular sets. Otherwise, this probably doesn't have the requirements for a thread.
  3. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    That actually sounds like a very good idea. I'll edit it immediatly. But eh.. Do you mean the sets how they would function in the lower tiers or how they function in ou? Or maybe even both?
  4. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego xXFaze GatoXx
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    I'd just use the most popular smogon sets. They're the most known and would be the easiest to understand. Also, OU should be capitalized, and it's probably not a good idea to use informal language like "cuz" or "meh" in an article-type thread
  5. bubbly

    bubbly

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    Any discussion of niche pokemon needs Zapdos. It's obviously not going to be hugely popular until Lightning Rod is released, but it completely walls the Politoed / Genesect / Dugtrio / Tornadus teams even while still handling SF Landorus and Breloom and the likes.
  6. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    I might not excactly have used the right title but i dont know rlly what to call it :S.
  7. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I would include Amoongus in this discussion as well. He has been seeing a lot of use in OU recently, but just not enough to make it into the tier. Therefore, he has been stuck in NU. He counters/checks a reasonable amount of threats in OU and has access to Clear Smog and Spore. I would say he is the 5th gen version of Gastrodon to-be based on the tier rise (possibly).
  8. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    I agree with this. Im adding this.
  9. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    You might as well call this topic (OU only in OU) lol. Anyway, threads needs more Unaware Quagsire. This mon at one point threatened to kill of all physical set up users, and the only chance you could kill with these mons was by critics and sometimes not even that.

    Also Ditto's new ability is awesome, trouble is it can only work when the mon infront of you/copying is also awesome, so that's why he can only revenge kill well in OU where he can copy many borderline, boosted pokemon and make the opponent regret he ever set up.
  10. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    Thats a good title you just suggested actually. But if i only knew how to change the title .__.

    Not really sure about quagsire.
    I might look into ditto later.
  11. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    By critical or by using Grass-type moves, don't forget. Quagsire and Gastrodon, in fact, are the reason why I never forget to use Grass-type moves on my team. They are niche pokémon, but are so boring to defeat without a Grass-type move, especially when the opponent use gimmicks like Stockpile.
  12. Ninelol

    Ninelol

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    Can I recommend specially defensive Rotom-H. It's a solid offensive pokemon in lower tiers but serves a nice defensive niche in OU of walling many top tier threats. I had a lot of success with it when laddering for the Dark Horse event. It's pretty much a Heatran that won't get trapped, still survives a specs Latios Draco meteor and counters almost the same threats. Just needs spin support.
  13. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    2 niche pokemon I have played with in my time. Both of these pokemon require a specific team style to be used, but with the right support can be very effective.

    [​IMG]
    Snorlax @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Return / Body Slam
    - Pursuit
    - Earthquake / Fire Punch
    - Crunch / Fire Punch

    Snorlax is an incredibly good niche pokemon for a sun team, it can counter / check or even trap a majority of sun's threats: Latios, Latias, Volcarona, Heatran, TR-reunicles, Tornadus, ect. Investment in special defense means you can take boosted special hits and hit them back in return. A strong special tank that almost functions like a Tyranitar for sun teams, almost.

    [​IMG]
    Athena (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 224 SDef / 36 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Roar / Hidden Power Ice
    - Thunderbolt
    - Roost
    - Heat Wave

    A good pokemon if you need a counter to Tornadus, Venusaur, and SD-Scizor, if that is the exact whole in your team that you need patched up, this can easily remedy it. It also can make a pretty dam good with into CM-Jirachi (if you use roar), but you are going to need to have spikes support in to order for you to wear it down.

    also Slowbro, but Ill let someone else take that
  14. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I've used that same Snorlax set with some success in OU, and I can attest to its success. It's probably the only viable Snorlax set in OU, but that's partly what makes it a niche 'mon. I actually to use it as a counter to sun teams on my rain team - it's basically the second best counter to sun, after Heatran. It fits better onto a rain team though, and unlike Heatran, it isn't scared shitless of Dugtrio. Thanks to Thick Fat, it can take even boosted Fire attacks in the sun and retaliate hard back.
  15. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    Pokemon like Victreebel and Lilligant deserve a mention as well imo. They are used because of the possibility of Drought, and are much better than they are in lower tiers because of it. This can turn them into exceedingly dangerous sweepers, that can do a lot of damage with blazing speed and Stab/Sun boosted attacks. Additionally, Rotom-H also deserves a mention as it can hard wall Genesect, which very few Pokemon can claim the ability to do.
  16. dice

    dice follow @smogmogu for hot content
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    He looks fucking cool too. >:]

    Golurk
    [​IMG]

    Golurk @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Iron Fist / No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch
    - Fire Punch / DynamicPunch

    There is a little bit of slash-itis here, but the secondary slashes all go together. Anyways, Golurk is just a fucking monster currently. In Hail he is just a beast in general. Is your hail team struggling with Terrakion, Double Priority Lucario, Scizor, Jirachi, and many other Steels and Fighting-type Pokemon in general? Golurk can help you solve your problems! Golurk is one of the best Terrakion counters in the game, and not only that but it is an effective Stealth Rock setter as well due to the way that it can self-spinblock. Starmie and Tentacruel obviously can hit it with their supereffective STAB's, however both fall to either Abomasnow or a STAB EQ. This Golurk is a cool way to pivot versus a lot of Dragons as well. No Dragon is going to be OHKO'ing Golurk, even with a Banded Outrage, meaning if its checked what you have needed it too with it, you can use it to scout Choice Dragons or just kill a Dragon with it. I've killed several Dragonites with Ice Punch since they were at 75% from Stealth Rock. Golurk's Ground-type also keeps Choice'd Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, etc. at bay since they'll be wary of spamming their STAB's with Golurk being alive, giving you momentum at times. The EV's, according to Smogon, allow you to OHKO Terrakion with Earthquake. I don't like Shadow Punch on Golurk because you're only 3HKO'ing Reuniclus with it and Starmie beats you anyways. It's nice to hit Gengar at times, but it's not worth the moveslot. DynamicPunch is an alternative which actually lets you beat Reuniclus with hax, hit Ferrothorn, Bronzong, etc. harder and things like Kyurem on the switch-in. I usually only use it in Rain. In Rain I also prefer Rocky Helmet since you can switch into Dragonite and its Outrage breaks its Multiscale to where Ice Punch KO's, Hail doesn't have this problem because of the passive damage. In Rain I use Golurk as a way to spinblock versus Sand teams with Forretress as a spinner, since those gave me the biggest headache and with Golurk they couldn't spin past me. Plus, Golurk was also my Terrakion check as well, and over utility. The team was a Rain Stall, btw.
    Kyurem loves Golurk since the things that check it (Jirachi, Bronzong, Terrakion after a KO) are beaten by Golurk, and they have overall good synergy with eachother.

    Anyways, yah. I <3 Golurk.
  17. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte On a short LoA
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    I apologize if I have misinterpreted the OP, but here's what I think of this topic.

    As you've probably noticed, a lot of pokemon in your list have their niches strongly tied with weather. The reason why they do so much better in OU than in the lower tiers is because of their reliance on an OU restricted strategy. Where would Gastrodon be id countering Rain wasn't so vital? RU, maybe NU even. Where would Toxicroak be without Politoed's Drizzle? UU, perhaps RU. Where is Lilligant, even though its niche lies high up in OU? RU.

    Similarly, these strategies are only effective because they allow lower tier and higher tier pokemon to shine. Why would anybody bother using Ludicolo if it wasn't one of the most annoying SubSeeders in Rain Dance? Politoed and Ninetales would be cirtually unheard of if not for their abilities and abilty to aid other pokemon to sweep.

    It's an interesting phenomenon to ponder- the fact that these pokemon are really only in OU because they work well in a strategy that was brought to OU because they helped them work better.
  18. Noob Asian

    Noob Asian

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    Also to consider, Cresselia and Electivire, basically in the same boat as Gastrodon, much useful outside weather teams (although Gastrodon can be used in both sandstorm and rain teams). Cresselia is incredibly powerful in a sun team with 66.66...% healing in sun with access to twave, can set up calm mind pretty easily, given his built fairly well (I prefer 252 HP / 240+ Def / 16 SDef).

    With Electivire, his immunity to electricity does cover your weakness to electric types wth your water pokemon quite well, in fact it speeds him right up.

    Now in their respective tiers, they lose the perm weather and has to rely on a mon that has to keep setting up which is unreliable compared to the OU way of setting weather up.
  19. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    Amoonguss is a particularly interesting niche option in my opinion. It might be slow and set-up fodder for a variety of sweepers but it works so nicely with certain pokemon that it really is a force to be considered in OU.

    I suppose the main thing holding it back in OU is that it really does need specific teammates depending on what you will be allowing to set up on you - thanks to its movepool. For example if you run hp ice... suddenly sub/charge magnezone can sit in front of you all day, scizor/Lucario can SD and ferrothorn/forretress can lay hazards, but with hp fire, you have the headache of rain/gliscor/dragonite/salamence and now even garchomp to cope with! Amoonguss' problem will probably always be that culling trade off, you get a 100% sleep and the ability to wall a large variety of threats, including a good portion of rain threats, but then it needs specific partners to cover its weaknesses.

    Lets consider what it walls or is at least capable of resisting/surviving a hit/paralysing/switching out of (going from most OU to least OU):

    Politoed (all)
    Breloom (assuming another sleeping poke)
    Rotom-W (all - hates trick though)
    Terrakion (one of the best preliminary checks, it can survive most Terrakion hits & has regenerator)
    Latios (checks draco meteors very well - hates psychic stab)
    Starmie (hates psyshock)
    Gengar (Gengar eventually loses)
    Alakazam (doesn't check it, but, believe it or not, it survives a LO psychic on the sp. def. set & paralyses one of the fastest pokemon!)
    Tornadus-T (see Alakazam)
    Tentacruel (no-one wins in rain)
    Thundurus-T (nearly all)
    Landorus (special sets are statused(paralysed/sleep) at the very least (before switching))
    Jellicent (often a stalemate)
    Jolteon (all)
    Dugtrio (lol)
    Keldeo (all)
    Gastrodon (all)

    My personal opinion is that with the release of contrary Serperior, Amoonguss will initially rise significantly in usage as it is one of the best serperior counters (infact amoonguss can check almost any grass type.. even some Venusaur!). It is immune to leech seed, takes pitiful damage from +2 hp fire w/o a life orb and can reset stats with clear smog.. not to mention paralyse or put Serperior to sleep. Regenerator is also a great ability, it really is a shame it has such a poor movepool.
  20. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    I haven't thought of cress yet. It might be a formidable wall in sun. About vire. We have jolteon to do that job lol.

    That was the idea yes. But it also was the idea to convince the smogon moderators that the usage based tiering is a bit awkward. Especially if its good in that tier but not so good in the one below it. And lilligant is RU and that is where it belongs. Have you seen that guy in action? Its way OP for NU.

    Ditto is a bit of a gimmick and situational. It is just as good in any tier. From NU to ubers he fits anywhere. So if this guy is gonna raise then ill eat my pillow if smogon doesnt see that ditto is good anywhere. He completely wrecks my teams though because i love setting up so much that most of the time half of my team has set up moves.
  21. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Just saying that some of the set that you have posted are wrong (or maybe just inefficent) like Lilligant for example. With that set, you need the sun support to sweep at all: in fact, if u use solarbeam and a weather changer switch into you, you are screwed. Also, growt can be a good option for sure, but since it has Quiver dance, i cant see any reason to not abuse of it. What makes lilligant shine is the fact that you dont necessarily need the sun support to sweep, you can get some sweep even under rain or sand, and if u have sun up, then its even better.
    Here is the set:
    [​IMG]
    Lilligant (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]/ Ice / Rock

    The choice between the hidden power depends on your team.
    Anyway, its a great pokemon for any sun team, the main problem you will have is Toxic spikes, in fact you will probably have no way to absorbing them like u can do with Venusaur.
  22. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    Okay, I know it gets Quiver Dance but it only gets +1 SpA from it and from Growth it gets +2 SpA. From Quiver Dance it also gets a speed boost which is completely not neccesary due to chlorophyll. So i guess if you really want the SpD boost Quiver Dance also delivers then you might go with QD. But otherwise USE GROWTH. And about the Solarbeam part you may be right but you can always use giga drain over that if you dont like the risk of that happening.
  23. peng

    peng

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    Quiver Dance boosts speed allowing Lilligant to still sweep outside of Sun, unlike something like Venusaur. This is a pretty big deal considering how badly standard sun matches up against the common Dugtrio Rain teams and means you're win condition isn't as heavily reliant on keeping Ninetales alive anymore.

    Any Lilligant without Quiver Dance or Healing Wish is largely outclassed by other chlorophyll sweepers too, so definitely keep Quiver Dance or you might as well use Venusaur.
  24. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    Lilligant has higher SpA than any other growth chlorophyll sweeper besides tangrowth who only hits decent speed in sun. So why not abuse that?
  25. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    What can Lilligant KO specifically that the other Chlorophyll abusers can't? If you can provide damage calculations then I may buy your argument, but otherwise I'm sticking the notion that Quiver Dance > Growth.

    Also, keep in mind that Lilligant has a very poor offensive movepool, with literally only Grass attacks and Hidden Power in its repertoire. The other Chlorophyll abusers have other moves to use, e.g. Victreebel gets Weather Ball, Venusaur gets Sludge Bomb/Earthquake, Shiftry gets Nature Power/Sucker Punch, Exeggutor gets Psychic (though no Growth), etc. What it does have, as has been pointed out in this thread already, is the ability to still sweep even when the sun is not shining. This makes it potentially much more difficult to revenge kill, as the other sweepers can be stopped in their tracks by merely changing the weather.

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