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OU Playstyles - Week #01 [Hyper Offense]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by LilOuOn, Feb 8, 2013.

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  1. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Approved by Haunter, Birkal and Huntofthelion​

    OU Playstyles

    By LilOu. With collaboration of Stoned RG. Special thanks to Shurtugal.

    Welcome to the OU discussion of the different playstyles! The main purpose of this thread is to choose a playstyle every week (I'll choose it) and you, (yes, you), are going to be able to comment, give your opinion and suggest pokemons that should be considered when making a team around the style [posting teams is also allowed, just keep in mind that this is not the RMT forums, so if you want to post a team try to make it short and use sprites of pokes, explain how does the team work and post replays if possible]. Obviously, your comments must have connection with the chosen style, as well as solid arguments of why your comment(s) are valid. With this, newer players can decide what playstyle they like most and, of course, more experienced players can also expand their knowledge. Remember to be friendly with other people; if you disagree with someone's opinion don't slam with an aggressive response, just let everyone know what you think in a kind way. The links to discussions of each playstyle will be posted in the OP so everyone can read it at anytime!

    Don't be afraid of posting! If you have a great offense, stall, etc team, just think about what to say and go for it! Don't forget that participating in this kind of threads gives you opportunity to earn that awesome Community Contributor badge! Be careful of what do you post! Quality posts will be rewarded, but mediocre comments will be infracted. Do your best and I hope that you like to contribute this thread!


    Summary of the rules (Must read):
    • Make quality posts. No one-lined posts.
    • Your comments must be about the weekly playstyle chosen.
    • No gimmicks. If you decided to post a team (or pokemon) don't suggest using pursuit Tauros to trap Celebi or Latios while there is an overall better option named Tyranitar.
    • Comment how the chosen style affects the current metagame and how it fairs in it.
    • Support your team's posts with replays if possible. Explanation of them are a must.
    • Having a wide point of view is needed. Don't post that stall sucks because you always lose to it.
    • Your new ideas must have strong arguments of why them should be considered.
    • This one is important: We don't want this to become a debate of: "this metagame is stale and has no diversity due to weather". This thread is here to make a discussion about the different playstyles, not to discharge all your hate against weather. Please, incoherent posts will be deleted and possibly penalized, so think about what are you going to write.




    Week #01: Hyper Offense


    [​IMG]

    Hyper Offense. A playstyle full of real threats that have only one purpose - attack like hell. This boys have no mercy and will do anything to destroy the opponent's team. But, putting a lot of threats together is a nice idea? Do they need support? What about offensive synergy? And defensive? Do I need entry hazards? What can I do against Magic Bounce? Which pokemon should I use?

    Guys, this is your opportunity to show all what you know about this. I know, I know, the fifth question is kinda dumb, but there are players that don't know what's the meaning of HO, so try to do your best and good luck!


    Archive:

    Pokemons you must consider when teambuilding (open)
    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-Defense @ Rocky Helmet / Mental Herb / Red Card
    Trait: Pressure
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Magic Coat / Night Shade


    I have nothing to explain here really. He has the speed to set up rocks really fast and has enough bulk to take 2 hits and set rocks and 1 layer of spikes easily. He also has access to taunt so he can prevent set-up sweepers to, well...set up. Powerful threats such as SD Loom or SD Lucario really appreciate the help of Deo-D because the hazards he sets can turn 2HKOs into OHKOs, as well as breaking Sturdys, Sashs and Multiscales. Definitely, you must consider Deo-D when making a HO team.

    Author: LilOu


    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake/ Fire Punch


    Dragonite's bulk is really good and he has an awesome 134 base attack. With this and Multiscale, he can easily set up a Dragon Dance to elevate his attack stat to 604. He works really great as late game sweeper or at leaving holes through the opponent's team at early game. Just be careful about hazards on your side of the field and opposite skarmory.

    Author: LilOu


    [​IMG]
    Gengar @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Satk / 4 Sdef / 252 Spd
    Timid nature
    - Substitute
    - Disable / Pain split
    - Shadow ball
    - Focus blast


    The premier spinblocker for hyper offensive teams to utilize. makes a great pair with taunt or magic coat deo-d variants, set up hazards and then prevent them from being spun away is always a solid strategy. gengar obvious has trouble handling starmie, though, so you might want to consider also running some sort of pursuit trapper.

    Author: Lavos Spawn


    [​IMG]
    Tyranitar @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand stream
    EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spd
    Adamant nature
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Stone edge
    - Superpower


    Another near-essential on deo-d hyper offense teams. makes a great partner for the hazard setter by removing starmie with ease, and serves as an excellent utility weather check as well, especially for pursuit trapping ninetales and cb crunching politoed. also handles the lati twins, which generally give ho some issues. all in all, a good choice for any team.

    Author: Lavos Spawn


    [​IMG]
    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified/Inner Focus
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Close Combat
    - Crunch/Bullet Punch/Ice Punch


    One of the best abusers of priority, this pokemon is a must tryout for Hyper offense. After a SD, the attack is raised to an amazing 700 and very few pokemon can laugh of a +2 close combat. Bullet punches get rid of Terrakions, Ice Punch for Gliscors and Landorus-T, and crunch for those bulky psychics. Use the move slot depending on your teams weakness. Extremespeed provides a +2 Priority, that allows you to OHKO most the meta after stealth rock, not to mention the pokemon that are attracted to Deo-D will usually get hurt by Lucario.

    Author: Takion


    [​IMG]
    Kingdra (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse


    With that speed and Modest, you hit 269 Speed, which under rain gives you 538. The benchmark you want to hit is really enough to outspeed Scarf Latios which hits 525, but really 7 extra HP evs aren't going to do anything for you so you might as well run max in case you approach another Kingdra. Hydro Pump is a nuke and does something ridiculous like 40% to spD Rotom and Draco is your nuke, even though must of the time you're going to be pressing Hydro Pump. Kingdra is underrated all in all and people should use it more.

    Author: ThunderBlunder


    [​IMG]
    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid/Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rock Polish


    I didnt see this one posted yet. Landorus-I is a huge threat and works great for Hyper Offense. After Special Wall like the pink blob and you shouldn't have too much issue as long as Focus Blast will hit. You basically come to force a switch and set a Rock Polish and proceed to sweep.

    Author: BlackRussian


    [​IMG]
    Scizor @ Life Orb/Lum Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower


    Standard offensive SD scizor, a note on this set: this shouldnt EVER be your main physical sweeper, its way too slow to straight up sweep an offensive team, hell even balanced, but it will shit on stall hard. I consider this more of a ''support'' poke in HO, since +2 LO superpower does 70%< to standard skarm, this turns dnite suddenly into a mayor win condition, i would reccomend using it alongside DD dragonite, or sub salac terrakion in case theres no chance for an SD. Lum is slashed there since it lets scizor bypass 1 scald burn and lets it set up on sp def Rotom W (often meaning game to a sand team in the latter).

    Author: Stone RG


    [​IMG]
    Salamence @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SpA
    Naive Nature
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast


    Funny i was talking about dnite 2 seconds ago, now this should only be used as a late game sweeper, or a really desperate revenge killer, thats just my thoughts. Outrage works usually for the sheer power it comes with, and if youre feeling lucky, or those kills are life or death situations, this is the move to stick to, however, if youre like me and wanna avoid hax as much as possible, dragon claw is probably a better choice, and the move most of the time is being used in this set. Fire blast and eq serve only as coverage moves. Note: mence is also helped by offensive sd scizor, since it lets it get pass its most common counter: Skarmory, after rocks.

    Author: Stone RG


    [​IMG]
    Breloom (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Spore
    - Bullet Seed
    - Mach Punch
    - Swords Dance / Low Sweep


    Sash Breloom is pretty standard, but it gets the job done. A sleeping Pokemon is essentially a Pokemon that is killed in the game, since the high pressure of HO will not give the other team a chance for it to wake up. Like Gengar who spinblocks, Breloom brings an additional utility to the table with powerful priority in the form of Technician Mach Punch. SD vs Low Sweep is up to you, but it is important to note Swords Dance does not make you a sitting duck if you retain your Focus Sash.

    Author: ThePillsburyDoughBoy


    [​IMG]
    Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Destiny Bond
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Substitute


    Gengar with Destiny Bond is a cool option to level the playing field after you have blocked your hazards with Gengar. His high-speed and frail defenses means most of the time you will be successful. It is a great way to get around Pursuit trapping Tyranitar, who will be adamant to pursuit trap your ass in order to further lower the score.

    Author: ThePillsburyDoughBoy


    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Endeavor
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash / Stealth Rock / Hail


    Endeavor Mamoswine can be used as a lead with SR, but it is equally viable as a standalone Pokemon. Terrible defensive Ice-typing+Immunity to Sandstorm+Hail makes it a great Eneavor user. Like Breloom, Mamoswine bring powerful priority to the table with Ice Shard. Now you may be asking yourself why I put Hail in the last slot. Well Hail allows Mamoswine for Endeavor just to be a straight KO move if it gets Hail with its Sash up (other than Kube and opposing Mamoswine of course). In other words, you don't have to waste a turn Ice Sharding, which is an opportunity for the opponent to switch out. More importantly, Hail is there to fuck with all the weather teams running around in OU. Since HO teams are usually weatherless, a Pokemon that can change mess with weather conditions where it is an inherit part of its strategy is greatly appreciated.

    Author: ThePillsburyDoughBoy
  2. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I feel as if offensive synergy is the most improtant factor in hyper offense. Although many people dismiss ho as "LOL JUST SLAP ON 5 SWEEPERS!!!" in actuality, to be successful against a good player/team, you must have incredible synergy. The general idea of the playstyle is to overwhelm the opponent with offensive pressure, and that won't happen when your strategy is keep using outrage on skarmory until it breaks (hint: It won't break).

    When a pokemon goes down, the team simply must have a pokemon that can set up in the face of whatever countered the previous threat, something that, in many cases, requires careful consideration.

    The biggest detriment to hyper offense, in my opinion, is the importance of obtaining the first turn setup and momentum. If deoxys/whatever gets taunted or magic bounced or something, then the momentum and chain of attempted sweeps is shut down and the ho user is put at an immediate huge disadvantage. Thus, in order to prepare for ho, sometimes a simple fast taunter can be sufficient.

    On the topic of momentum, the ho user can't afford to lose it, period. Switching, generally, ruins momentum, thus it is helpful, in my opinion, to have setup moves on 4 or 5 of the pokemon so as to be able to come in on something unthreatening, setting up, and taking out more things.
  3. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I actually think that you shouldn't be using setup moves on all of Pokémon. Actually, I've been using an hyper-offensive team where only 2 of the Pokémon actually have setup moves. How then I manage to suceed? Well, I usually use Pokémon with incredible coverage and/or are very powerful by themselves, to the point that they don't need to setup to be threathening. Example: Hydreigon. It is slow but is uncounterable, as long as you manage to bring it safely, your opponent will have to predict well or lose a Pokémon.

    The problem of hyper-offensive is that it is neither a playstyle that relies on switching, nor a playstyle that relies on defensive synergy. Thus, you don't need to worry if you have X resistances to Water on a metagame where rain-boosted Hydro Pumps are so threathening. However, to someone that is not accustomed to use Hyper Offensive, this can be a problem.

    Also, overwhelming your opponent is not to use Outrage on Skarmory until it breaks. I will take an example. Lucario setups and there comes Hippowdon. Hippowdon sponges the first Close Combat and OHKO Lucario with Earthquake. However, it will be weakened enough so that it cannot wall any other physical sweeper that you plan to use. That's what I think that is "overwhelming your opponent". Of course, you will not sacrifice all your Pokémon because you will lose. What I am trying to say is: save a sweeper for the end, use the rest to weaken your opponent's Pokémon.

    Oh, as a note: Despite all this; DO NEVER FORGET OF PACKING A SCARF USER ON YOUR TEAM! Despite all the hyper offensive nature of... Hyper Offensive, this sort of team is like any non-Stall team; if you don't pack something that can revenge kill that threathening sweeper like Volcarona or Terrakion, expect to lose badly.
  4. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
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    I strongly disagree with this statement, as well as the one about defensive synergy. I find the scarves, even moreso than specs and bands, absolutely destroy momentum. With the exception of moxie pokes, scarf users are just asking o be set up on and to lose momentum, two things ho can't handle. If you don't have any choice items, the opponent won't be ABLE to set up in the first place.

    On defensive synergy, i find that the biggest threat to ho is fast scarvers like keldeo due to general frailty. Thus, we need to have something that can tank these attacks and can set up (a lati on keldeo, a scizor for dragons, etc). Not only that, but defensive synergy further assists in having something to easily setup on another poke's counter.

    In terms of having setup moves, I moreso meant not to use choice items. Setting up is just a further deterrent to switching and even more pressure for those free turns. Something like lo hydreigon is sufficient at that role :)
  5. BlackLight

    BlackLight

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    685
    Regarding this, I agree and disagree. Of course if you can't do enough damage to Skarmory, it won't break. Its very important to have Pokemon that can hit hard from both sides of the spectrum, and can hit certain Pokemon hard enough to punch holes in them, which open up holes in the opponent's defences.
    However, its also important to have a couple Pokemon that might have similar counters. One can go down to its counter, and if said counter was ingured during the battle, the second Pokemon can come in and finish it off, and suddenly that the opposing team doesn't counter it anymore.
    Imo, the best HO teams are the ones that have the perfect balance between offensive synergy and brute force.
    Also, regarding set up moves,I don't think they're necessary on all Pokes, but every member of the team should be able to sweep if needed. Stuff like Alakazam can sweep a weakened team without boosts, and these work great on HO.
  6. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
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    Repeat this when your opponent has something like Volcarona or Dragonite and they setup to +1, and you wish you had Scarf Terrakion to revenge kill that thing.

    Scarfs does not necessarily kill the momentum, they are still very necessarily so that such thing does not happen
  7. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    651
    I agree with this. A scarf poke is a must for me. Once your opponent set-up on something you can't kill you are dead weight and it is just a question of time until you lose.

    Talking about the offensive synergy, imagine this scenario:
    -You (the HO user) sent out your scarfmence to kill something.
    -Your opponent dead fodders something with low hp so your Mence gets trapped in Outrage.
    -Opponent sends in Scarf Keldeo to kill the trapped Salamence with HP ice.
    -Now, here is when you can send your Lucario and use the scarf Keldeo as set-up fodder because of the HP ice.

    You must consider all the possibilities and take advantage of the pokemons your opponent have. This is where I agree with Vemane.

  8. Vemane

    Vemane

    Joined:
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    But when do they intend to set up (especially when sr is generally assumed woth ho)? On my terrakion? Maybe my +2 scizor? With a proper amount of pressure, the opponent will not be attempting to set up, they will be attempting to kill your pokemon, or be swept. They should have virtually no room for error, and a free turn froma. Scarf grants just that.

    Generally, scarves and ho do not mix for once simple reason:
    +1 salamence is rampaging through your team! Good thing scarf rakion can ko with stone edge! And then the opponent sends out scizor/luke/ etc, gets to +2, and sweeps your frail offensive team with the free turn.

    Wouldn't it be better to just slap on a scizor? Or if a volc is shredding your team, a keldeo? Etc.

    These threats can come in after a kill and take care of the opponent without having to switch.

    You cannot obtain offensive pressure (sufficiently) when you are required to switch out and give the opponent wiggle room (a whole turn's worth!)
    JustAMan likes this.
  9. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    the face of hyper offense right now is definitely deoxys-d. the thing is a monster, it can reliably get two or three layers of hazards and neutralize some big threats with thunder wave to let the following pokemon set up on the face of the opponent and maybe break off a big sweep. other hazard layers, one of which is required in every good hyper offense team imo, include sash terrakion, sash garchomp, sash mamoswine, sash aerodactyl, azelf, mew, crustle, you name it. most hyper offensive teams these days tend to be either weatherless or sand teams, seeing as rain and sun are kind of hard to spam offense with because you're hindered by politoed and ninetales's limited offensive prowess. choice band tyranitar is by far the most common partner to deoxys-d outside of gengar, another easy choice to put alongside the mighty hazard setter of bw2. once this basic outline is established, sweepers are added, the most generic combination of this gen being terrakion, keldeo, and latios, which together form an offensive core that not many things can well efficiently. other extremely popular setup 'mons include sd lucario, sd technician breloom, sheer force rp landorus, sd scizor, rain dance kingdra, and many others besides. the trapper hyper offense team isn't seen nearly as much anymore, but on a physically based ho team, magnezone is not too rare of a sight, and gothitelle also makes an occasional appearance to put pressure on stall teams to make the right switches.

    i'm going to outline a little hyper offense team archetype for you all, feel free to ignore this if you're already well versed in the ways of said playstyle or maybe give me a little feedback as well:

    1) hazard setter: deoxys-d, terrakion, mamoswine, etc.
    2) spinblocker: almost always gengar, or
    ----> 2) trapper: magnezone, gothitelle
    3) weather setter or neutralizer: tyranitar, kingdra, weavile, etc.
    4) sweeper a, generally swords dancer or nasty plotter: breloom, terrakion, lucario, mew, etc.
    5) sweeper b, generally rock polisher or dragon dancer: terrakion, landorus, salamence, dragonite, etc.
    6) choice scarfed revenge killer: latios, terrakion, keldeo, salamence, etc.

    that seems to be about the category that most hyper offense teams end up falling under, correct me or suggest additions to any of the six slots if you feel that it's necessary.

    i'm sure that i'll have more to say on this topic, but for now i'll let the discussion grow a bit before stepping back in.
  10. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    As you said, Deo-d is something that every HO team has, but I have seen some Sand HO teams with Sash T-tar as lead. They set rocks and then attack until death. With this you have one more slot on your team to abuse the sandstorm. I have tried this once and it worked pretty cool on PO, however, i think that Deo-D does the work a lot better.

    If Deoxys-D gets banned we are going to start considering more options like Custap Forretress. You can get easily two layers of hazards.
  11. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    i used a team with that tyranitar set in week 4 of spl and it won partially because of the sash being a surprise to my opponent (rest of the team had sash loom, sash terrak, sash sciz, and rp lando plus a reflect type starmie to practically ensure spinning). i forget the evs but i know i had max attack and some spatk investment as well, enough to easily 2hko ferrothorn with flamethrower. i was running stealth rock, pursuit, and superpower in addition to the aforementioned attack as well. it was really just meant to set up rocks and be a utility 'mon, it was good at bluffing a choice set with superpower and then catching things off guard with flamethrower, such as forretress trying to switch in and get cute with hazards etc. this team was focused entirely around the benefits of sand, which is why i used ttar over deo-d as my hazard setter, and it worked for the specific team, but i wouldn't recommend the set to anyone unless your team really needs sand plus rocks plus utility offense presence. thanks for bringing that up lilouon, i forgot about it until just now.
  12. Gairyuki789

    Gairyuki789

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    I really wish I could use Hydreigon like I used too but I can't anymore, cause he's not fast enough, even with a scarf for some of the more used OU threats.
  13. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    hyper offense sucks as a whole and plays a big reason in why i dislike deoxys-d, it singlehandily makes the playstyle viable to sweep you because of 1 random threat you couldnt cover. that isn't skill, it's just blind luck on whether you sweep a certain team or not (and honestly you can use it on ladder to success because the teams you dont sweep cuz of hazards + mon, the players are just retarded enough to let their x counter die anyway)

    my main issue with it is it doesnt really care about covering threats or invoking interaction between players. i had to use limitless's heavy offense team for secret santa (azelf + 4 set up sweepers + scarfmence) and honestly while i used it probably the best it could be used, i felt 0 interaction with my opponent. i basically just set up and laid a hit on something, if they were dumb enough to keep their checks to other threats in.

    and outside of lavos making a dumb play that worked in his favor (yea im salty) i actually woulda won >_>. but i think it just drives home what im saying: in that tournament, teams were usually not prepared for that 1 random threat and it just created an environment of 0 interaction between opponents.

    so yeah ill always despise these teams because they dont do anything except roll the dice and hope to push through. their lack of defense and lack of synergy (outside of barely qualifying as synergy shit like "double dragon", "hazards + ghost", etc) just kills them overall.
  14. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    One thing about HO teams is that almost all of them run Deo-D. I have a DragMag team on PS! that actually worked quite well, but I think it is lacking something.
  15. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Here is what i think about Heavy offense. It has already been said, that maintaining momentum is the most important thing to win. The first thing to do is using a good lead as a stealth rock user, lavos mentioned some, but i would say that only sash terrakion, azelf and Deo-d are worth a slot. Sure aerodactyl is cool but i dont get why you should use it over terrakion, which is more threatening in general. Sash garchomp its cool but it lacks of taunt, so its not even that hard to setup stealth rock against it, and hyper offensive teams often doesnt like entry hazard.

    Then, i saw some discussion about choice users. Unless you have a strong reason to use something choiced, it just wont work. There are exceptions though. I've had some success with scarf gengar, but for the only purpose of outspeed starmie and kill it. Other than that i use it when i have to sac something or to get a surprise kill with destiny bond. Moxie users, like scarf salamence can be used with success, because it doesnt really matter if you lock yourself into a dragon move, but you obviously have to do it once there are no more steel alive. The other exception im thinking about are volturn teams. Back in the genesect days for example, i used a volturn team with scarf gengar/genesect/rotom-w/dd mence with the deo-d support. It didnt really matter if they were choiced pokemon or not, because unless you voltswitch to a ground type you will always maintain momentum.
    I know some people that had success with cbterrakion or other choiced users, but in my mind i see sd terrakion being more usefull anyway.

    Now you may ask, hey neliel, how do you revenge kill things then? I just dont. Basically i always make sure that my team have a good defensive sinergy so that it can handle everything anyway. Also, it should be impossible to setup for an another team against an heavy offense, because if they lose a turn to sword dance or whatever else, they are probably dead. An example of great defensive sinergy, can be terrakion/dnite/scizor/latios/lucario/kindgra. You see, it doesnt have any evident weaknesses in term of typing, and almost nothing can sweep with a turn of setup.

    Now there is something else to speak about, which is priority move. I dont know if its me but i found Ddnite/sdCario/sdScizor on the best offensive core ever. Not only they setup and destroy everything but also revenge kills at the same time. Priority moves in teams like these are so usefull that even mamoswine can be considered, or even weavile, which i see more often. Any other priority user like Breloom or aqua jet users are usable as well. I found priority so important that i even did an offensive team with abomasnow. With lucario/dnite/scizor/aboma you only need some way to prevent sr and you are done. Aboma may seems like a bad choice, but it function well as an antiweather poke, as well as providing that usefull priority and a quite good movepool. In fact, its not even that easy to switch in on abomasnow if you think about, ice/grass/fire/ground hit pretty much everything. This was also to say that weather with heavy offense teams can work. Cbtar has already been mentioned, now aboma, then i had success even with ninetales. Sure ninetales is the worst, but its the pokemon that can give you the most support. It makes venusaur a very threatening poke, it makes steel less problematic and it nerfs rain as well. If you are interested, you can see my last rtm, it was a sun heavy offense. It wasnt that bad.

    Lastly, i think that a pokemon that should be used more is dragon dance latios. Its attacks is bad i know, but the fact that it outspeed every scarfer users its very usefull, obviously it lacks of the power to break walls so it should be used in very late game to clean. Its also its only way to be used successfully in heavy offense teams, because special sets are fucked by jirachi, scizor and tyranitar and specs sucks anyway, since the drop of draco meteor will make you lose momentum.
  16. Nova

    Nova Palisades
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    Here are some of my thoughts on Hyper Offense teams. I'm not a big fan of them but I think they are very effective in this metagame due to a combination of being straightforward to play as you don't need to make much predictions or risk double switches, the lack of Rapid Spinners that can clear entry hazards, and the power creep this generation that has made offense a lot more powerful and defensive teams harder to play. In the current metagame, it's pretty much mandatory to have an entry hazard setter on an HO team due to the prominence of things that are weak to Stealth Rock such as Dragonite, Salamence, Kyurem-B, Volcarona, etc. and also Focus Sash users that could screw over a possible sweep. It used to be that Dual Screens were pretty common on HO teams but this trend has seemed to fall off, with everyone just using a Deoxys-D lead to get up Stealth Rock and as many layers of Spikes at the beginning of the match as possible. When playing with these teams, I never switch until I absolutely have to. It's usually better just to sac something and then bring something in that can set up on your opponent than to switch around.

    When playing with an HO team, I like to use sweepers with good offensive synergy that are checked by the same thing and can eventually break through. For example, I'll use Swords Dance Lucario, Dragon Dance Dragonite, and Scarf Salamence all of which can be checked by Skarmory but eventually they will put enough offensive pressure to break through and sweep the opponent. Another thing I like to do on HO teams is to use some surprise movesets. For example, I'll use Hidden Power Ground on Volcarona to surprise Heatran, one of its primary checks. Once Heatran is out of the way, the opponent usually won't have another Volcarona check so Volcarona can now easily sweep. Another cool lure that I really enjoy using is Fire Blast on Swords Dance Garchomp to surprise the likes of Ferrothorn and Skarmory.

    Another cool set I used to use on quite a few of my HO teams but one that I haven't used much or seen recently is Dual Screen Memento Latios. Latios is fast and so can get up quick screens and then sacrifice himself using Memento which drops the opponent's attacking stats and allows for a free switch in and usually a free turn of set up for the Pokemon coming in afterwards. The surprise factor of this team is really cool as Latios is usually choiced and can force some switches. Another cool set I like on HO teams is Focus Sash Dugtrio with Stealth Rock and Memento. Dugtrio is very fast so he can set up rocks, get hit down to his sash, and then use Memento to allow for a set up sweeper to set up.

    When I use Hyper Offense teams, I always use Lead Deoxys-D on them. Some sweepers I commonly use on these teams include Swords Dance Lucario, Swords Dance Scizor, Sub Swords Dance Terrakion, Swords Dance Breloom, Dragon Dance Dragonite, Focus Sash Alakazam, Sub Dragon Dance Gyradaos, Double Dance Thundurus-T, Scarf Salamence
  17. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Thanks everyone for the useful tips you are posting here!

    Now, I wanted to post some sets of pokemons that must be considered when making a HO team:

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-Defense @ Rocky Helmet / Mental Herb / Red Card
    Trait: Pressure
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Magic Coat / Night Shade


    I have nothing to explain here really. He has the speed to set up rocks really fast and has enough bulk to take 2 hits and set rocks and 1 layer of spikes easily. He also has access to taunt so he can prevent set-up sweepers to, well...set up. Powerful threats such as SD Loom or SD Lucario really appreciate the help of Deo-D because the hazards he sets can turn 2HKOs into OHKOs, as well as breaking Sturdys, Sashs and Multiscales. Definitely, you must consider Deo-D when making a HO team. Click on Deo-D's sprite for more information.


    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake/ Fire Punch


    Dragonite's bulk is really good and he has an awesome 134 base attack. With this and Multiscale, he can easily set up a Dragon Dance to elevate his attack stat to 604. He works really great as late game sweeper or at leaving holes through the opponent's team at early game. Just be careful about hazards on your side of the field and opposite skarmory.

    I know there are a lot of things more that can be used in HO, so if you have an idea, feel free to post it here. If you have a team and a good replay that shows how does the playstyle works, go on.
  18. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Fastest man alive
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    Hyper Offense is a very powerful strategy to play with, and if executed correctly can bring greater rewards than balanced / stall type teams. Hyper Offense's success is dependent on how much offensive pressure one can put forth on their opponent. Hyper Offense puts its success in an overwhelming strategy that is supposed to prevent the opponent from getting anything done with repeated heavy attacks.

    However, one thing many people overlook is that despite the reliance on offense HO teams must also maintain adequate defensive / typing synergy. It is extremely unlikely that HO teams will be able to maintain the amount of offense needed to subdue the opponent for the whole entire match, because switching between pokemon is an important task, so being able to maintain momentum between these periods of heavy artillery is another aspect of the team almost as important as the offense itself. For this reason, pokemon that can exhibit considerable amount of power yet still also tank a hit or two are common on Hyper Offensive teams- and a good example of this is Dragonite, whose Multiscale, typing, and access to Dragon Dance make it a great candidate for many HO teams- as its Stealth Rock weakness is also somewhat mitigated by the fact that defensive teams won't be able to set up hazards with the amount of pressure Dragonite's partners put forth.

    Pokemon that also have good typing with important resistances / immunities are also commonly found on HO teams, even if they lack any true bulk. Immunities and resistances let you switch in pokemon with relatively little drawbacks. You maintain your offense, while still keeping the damage of your opponent's attacks at a relative minimum. A good example of a pokemon like this is Gengar. Its Ghost typing and ability give it a lot of opportunities to come in on powerhouses like RP Sheer Force Landorus or SD TechniLoom. It's also a great team player since it can spinblock and keep your hazards on your opponent's side of the field. Despite it having thin defenses, its typing and offensive power / coverage make it a frequent pokemon seen on HO teams.

    Another way to keep up momentum is the less seen strategy of VoltTurn. This, in conjunction with hazards, can also wear your opponent down, forcing them to switch constantly instead of being able to stay in and actually use their pokemon. These scouting methods can also be used to put yourself in an optimal position to set up and sweep. In general, VoltTurn does not function by itself to put forth enough pressure, so it must be used in conjunction with hazards and fast, powerful attackers with good mixed coverage in order to break down walls.

    Speaking of mixed coverage, that's another thing many HO teams need. Defensive cores such as SkarmBliss or TentaCent are still very effective and solid in today's metagame, and require pokemon that can hit from both sides of the spectrum powerfully or with powerful coverage moves. This has been made a lot easier this Gen, especially with the inclusion of more mixed sweepers and Psyshock and Secret Sword, which Latios and Keldeo commonly wield. These pokemon can bypass the fact that most defensive pokemon are centralized towards one stat- so hitting them from their weaker side with powerful attacks can often break them down.
  19. blunder

    blunder

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    I personally love using Stealth Rock Focus sash Terrakion as a lead for Hyper Offense teams and used one extensively back when Tornadus-T was OU and the teams were always cookie cutter Politoed/Scarf Keldeo/ Specs Tornadus. Most of the hard hitters in rain don't need spikes so I just relied on Stealth Rock and then started hitting pokes with powerful Close Combats. After Deoxys-D gets banned (My prediction, not here to start shit), I believe that we will see a spike in Sash Lead Terrak usage as it really is just fantastic in doing what it needs to do. Get up rocks and then at least take out 1 or 2 Pokemon giving advantage to your team is well as softening up checks. An example of the basic offensive rain teams that don't need Deo-D is probably one of my favorite teams: SpecsToed / Specs Bird / Scarf Keldeo / Rock Polish Genesect / Swords Dance Toxicroak / Focus Sash Terrakion.

    As you can see none of those Pokemon really need Spikes to do their job unless your hell bent on laying up as many hazards as you can so you can muscle past that pokemon's counters, ie: Setting up spikes and SR so that your Tornadus could possible get past that Specially Defensive Jirachi. In this metagame, Offense is probably my favorite all together. Another Pokemon that I think is fantastic on HO is Scarf Salamence. The sheer power of that thing once you weaken a steel is just amazing and cleans up games fantastically. The best partners of course are Magnezone to take out steel types as well as Scarf Gothitelle with a moveset of Psyshock / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ice / Trick.

    Gothitelle can easily take out annoyance to Salamence like Gliscor / Jellicent / Skarmory etc, and serve as a revenge killer in a time of need.

    Now I'll answer the questions

    1) For HO, I like to use One defensive Pivot for my team. Usually I rely on something like specially defensive Celebi which is fantastic this meta. Literally it's used to take hits from Pokemon that usually destroy HO, like RP Landorus and then it's used to U-turn out to get advantage to another hard hitter and threaten a sweep or a loss of a Pokemon.

    2-3) When it comes to HO, I don't really care for synergy. Obviously on a rain team your not going to be making a team like Politoed/Keldeo/Feraligatr/Jellicent/Tentacruel/Tornadus or something of the sort, but in HO, your not supposed to take hits. If anything, you want to have good offensive synergy to break down counters and checks to other Pokemon in the team. An example of this is Thundurus-T and Keldeo, Thundurus-T destroys the bulky water types for Keldeo to sweep and Keldeo can take out bulky ground types like Hippowdon and the likes.

    4) All teams need hazards, but mainly just stealth rock. HO is an exception. MOST of the time you're going to want the full deal and have Stealth rock and spikes, but like I said, some HO teams can operate with just Stealth Rock. Spikes are important though and just fantastic in this meta, so Yes- you do need hazards for success, unless your running something like all choice band Pokemon with attack > Base 120

    5) Magic Bounce is not that common anymore, but nevertheless a small threat. When I use Deoxys-D HO, I usually run the moveset of Stealth Rock / Spikes / Taunt / Skill Swap. Skill Swap is unpredictable and fantastic as it guarantees usually 2 or more layers as teams relying on Xatu or Espeon usually dont pack something extremely powerful like CB Tyranitar to take care of Deoxys-D getting up more than one layer. Another thing you can do is just hit those pokemon with whatever you have really as they aren't especially bulky, mainly in Espeon's case.

    6) To which pokemon you use, look at Lavos's team breakup which is mainly what I do. You want your hazards setter, your Pokemon that makes sure they stay, your set up sweepers, your revenge killer, and your weather check. It's an easy formula that is pretty amazing on its own right

    All in Hyper Offense is fantastic and even when Deoxys-D is no longer with us in OU, I believe it will still be a powerful force

    and oh yeah, people should try max atk max hp Forretress with Spikes, SR, Explosion, Toxic Spikes / Rapid Spin. You can get up at least 2 hazards if you need to or neutralize a threat with Explosion since it's really powerful doing things like ~75% to Max Hp Latias and ~40% to Defensive Landorus-T After Intimidate. Just a cool mon to play around with.
  20. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    Hyper Offense is all about momentum and priority so running an Hyper Offensive team with no Volt Turnes will force you to predict through the whole game and you will sooner or later predict wrong and lose, so when running an HO team always remember momentum, but this doesn't mean like you're going to run 6 turners because that is just overkill, 2 or 3 is the most benefitial to run and running them with setup sweepers that can carry priority also helps you keep momentum and pick off weakened opposing pokemon after residual damage from volt turning and hazard damage.
  21. HackerKing

    HackerKing

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    Now with Hyper Offense, there are two main problems, each has its own host of solutions.

    The first problem is what to do if you face offensive pressure yourself. I run a hyper-offensive team that needs to be able to take hits occasionally, especially early-game if I can't set up immediately. For my defensive pivot you want something that can take hits form both sides, has optimal typing (no common entry hazard weakness), and has a recovery move (I'm looking at you Forretress).

    A couple candidates come to mind. The two pixies, Celebi and Jirachi, both are pretty popular with Celebi's typing being a mixed blessing (stuff like Swampert get walled to Zimbabwe and back while Scizor and Tyranitar wreak it) while Jirachi has fewer optimal resistances but fewer weaknesses. Both can use support options (like Wish or Heal Bell) and learn U-turn to maintain momentum.

    Another solution is to simply hit everything hard and make intelligent sacs. While this hasn't worked for me, it's possible to sac a sweeper to get a revenge killer in safely. While this works, I'd rather keep a pivot instead of a sweeper just in case something gets out of control or you make a stupid mistake.

    The second problem is when you face walls. This is importantto take into account. Nasty Plot Thundurus-T is very powerful, but special walls cockblock it hard. This has a variety of solutions, with different teams employing different ones.

    The most intuitive is to have 1 or 2 wall breakers to break the walls. These wall breakers need to also be able to get out (either through death or Volt-Turn) to preserve momentum. Another common approach is to Spike-Stack (get Spikes up with Stealth Rock). Hazard presence turns a lot of 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into OHKOs. With everyone and their grandmother using Deoxys-D, Hyper Offensive teams can actually maintain their hazard advantage.
  22. Vemane

    Vemane

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    So then what do you do when your opponent sends out scarf keldeo and begins to surf your team to death because you didn't care for investing in defensive synergy because your team "isn't supposed to take hits?"
  23. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    I just want to note that we are discussing Hyper Offense, not Balanced, Bulky Offense nor Standard Offense. The main difference between HO and these other offensive team types (well Balanced goes both ways obviously) is that it has a very puritan approach in its playstyle. Hyper Offense takes the idea of offensive synergy and brute force to the absolute extreme. Because of this, HO almost never dry switches and relies almost entirely on double switches and picking up where a fainted member left off. This means it has almost zero need for a defensive backbone. The only use in resistances for an HO team is being able to ensure a safe setup. Offensive synergy is the most important aspect for HO teams. This playstyle asks for very few utilities, only requiring a Revenge Killer and a Stealth Rock setter as a must have. This makes the team very flexible and very straight forward, which is why it is a favorite amongst newer players. (Mind you, there will still be a difference between a top-tier HO team and the way the experienced player plays it versus the average HO team you will see on the ladder)


    1. Offensive Synergy: Don't count your weaknesses and forget about what you can counter. HO wants to focus on knocking down walls while checking any opposing sweepers. A bad HO team is one that can't force a wall out or fails to threaten to revenge kill an opposing cleaner. When building your core you want to make sure that there are as few defensive threats that can stop it as possible or that the same counters can only counter one at a time. This is why many cores will stack similar sweepers like Double Dragon as the poor defensive synergy is irrelevant compared to the ability of one to break down the walls for the other or sweep where the partner can't.


    2. Utilities: Okay I'm going to deviate a bit to directly address some of the other posts in this thread. Having a dedicated Revenge Killer (usually in the form of a Choice Scarfer) is as important in OU as it is to have a Stealth Rock setter. This has nothing to do with the team type itself, a Choice Scarf mon is a must for any team as this metagame has far too many sweepers for you to not have that safety net. Keep in mind though that a Scarfer is just that, a safety net. It won't give up any momentum as you will almost never use it other than to check a threat that had already stolen it from you. (Which is why Scarfers are such a threat to HO teams themselves) However, for those that do not like Choice Scarf mons there are some viable replacements. Weavile and SashZam can be used as your dedicated revenge killer for certain teams. The key words, though, are "for certain teams" as they both suffer from some crippling flaws that prevent them from being universal. SashZam is a one time revenge kill, if a sweeper sets up again you are going to be in big trouble. Weavile suffers from a SR weakness as well as an inability to check boosters like Gyarados and Volcarona so make sure you have something else to deal with them.


    Back to utilities. Just because an HO team doesn't ask for many doesn't mean it doesn't have many options. There are a wide variety of support options such weather, double hazards, screens, etc. that will help your sweepers be more successful and consistent in doing their job. Weather like Sun and Rain give massive power boosts to certain attacks that turns previous counters into checks/non-issues. Double hazards attempts to do the same thing but by adding up some extra previous damage upon switch in. Screens helps your fragile sweepers get an easy turn of setup, or maybe even a game ending second boost. There are also important roles that provide useful utility for HO teams namely Wall Breakers and Lures. The former uses brute force (or gay Shadow Tag stunts if you are a cheap little transvestite) to weaken or eliminate potential defensive threats so that your sweepers and cleaners have a easier time doing their job. The latter attempts to accomplish the same goal but tries to use mind-games to remove specific annoyances. Lures will usually use a Pokemon that incites the entry of a specific counter and promptly crushes said counter with a surprising set twist. Another noteworthy utility is having a ghost to perform the role of a spin blocker. This is only relevant for teams that opt for multiple hazards, however, it is still only optional as most HO teams will give very few opportunities to spin (at least in this metagame) and feeding these teams a free turn is very dangerous for the spinner as it could mean a game ending boost.



    As far as the metagame is concerned, Hyper Offense is one of the better playstyles to use. OU is like a tier full of Rayquazas, in other words, getting simply SR + Spikes up is enough to make about three of your team members counterless. Weather, namely Sun and Rain, has also had a dramatic effect on the metagame and there will be many a member who will rally for its ban (although the majority thinks they are silly :P) as the 50% boost to Fire and Water attacks, respectively, turns many already dangerous threats, like Keldeo, Gyarados and Dragons, into massive powerhouses while introducing new ones, such as Venusaur, thanks to weather reliant abilities. (Ex: Chlorophyl)
  24. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    There are other defensive needs of a HO team other than setting up on a pokes revenge killers.One thing must be kept in mind when building HO teams is a way of dealing with the likes of chloro sweepers,stoutland,scarf keldeo in rain etc.Since they can outspeed most scarfers which HO teams commonly use for revenge killing and hit very hard,they can easily give HO teams a lot of trouble.Priorities or utility mons sashZam can be used for checking them.

    Another defensive aspect of HO teams is resistances to priority moves.Common HO sweepers are usually frail and rely on speed to sweep.So powerful priority users are major roadblock to them.Using mons that resist their priority moves and can threaten them can used as partners for dealing with priority .Like If your team has Terrakion and Garchomp,you'll really hate Scizor.You can pair them with Gyarados or Keldeo as a solution.
  25. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    You are obviously not going to do this. What I think that it was meant to say about that is that defensive synergy is not as important on HO as on other teams. You are meant to take down threats without a second thougth, and defensive synergy does not help there. However, you can always carry things like Water resists, in case of something like that happens. My HO team has 3 Water resists, but they can't actually take repeated rain-boosted Water blows.
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