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OU Playstyles - Week #08 [Weatherless Offense] - The Last: Pokemons allowed

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by LilOuOn, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

    Joined:
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    Approved by Haunter, Birkal and Huntofthelion​

    OU Playstyles

    By LilOu. With some collaboration of Stoned RG. Special thanks to Shurtugal.

    Welcome to the OU discussion of the different playstyles! The main purpose of this thread is to choose a playstyle every week (I'll choose it) and you, (yes, you), are going to be able to comment, give your opinion and suggest Pokemons that should be considered when making a team around the style [posting teams is also allowed, just keep in mind that this is not the RMT forums, so if you want to post a team try to make it short and use sprites of pokes, explain how does the team work and post replays if possible. Obviously, your comments must have connection with the chosen style, as well as solid arguments of why your comment(s) are valid. With this, newer players can decide what playstyle they like most and, of course, more experienced players can also expand their knowledge. Remember to be friendly with other people; if you disagree with someone's opinion don't slam with an aggressive response, just let everyone know what you think in a kind way. The links to discussions of each playstyle will be posted in the OP so everyone can read it at anytime!

    Don't be afraid of posting! If you have a great offense, stall, etc team, just think about what to say and go for it! Don't forget that participating in this kind of threads gives you opportunity to earn that awesome Community Contributor([​IMG]) badge! Be careful of what you do post! Quality posts will be rewarded, but mediocre comments will be infracted. Do your best and I hope that you like to contribute this thread!


    Summary of the rules (Must read):
    • Make quality posts. No one-lined posts.
    • Your comments must be about the weekly playstyle chosen.
    • No gimmicks. If you decided to post a team (or pokemon) don't suggest using pursuit Tauros to trap Celebi or Latios while there is an overall better option named Tyranitar.
    • Comment how the chosen style affects the current metagame and how it fares in it.
    • Support your team's posts with replays if possible. Explanation of them are a must.
    • Having a wide point of view is needed. Don't post that stall sucks because you always lose to it.
    • Your new ideas must have strong arguments of why them should be considered.
    • This one is important: We don't want this to become a debate of: "this metagame is stale and has no diversity due to weather". This thread is here to make a discussion about the different playstyles, not to discharge all your hate against weather. Please, incoherent posts will be deleted and possibly penalized, so think about what are you going to write.


    Past Discussions:

    • Week #01 (February 8, 2013 - February 15, 2013): Hyper Offense
    • Week #02 (February 15, 2013 - February 22, 2013): Sand Offense
    • Week #03 (February 22, 2013 - March 1, 2013): Rain Offense
    • Week #04 (March 1, 2013 - March 8, 2013): Sand Stall
    • Week #05 (March 8, 2013 - March 16, 2013): Sun Offense
    • Week #06 (March 16, 2013 - March 23, 2013): Hail Stall
    • Week #07 (March 23, 2013 - March 30, 2013): Trick Room


    Week #08: Weatherless Offense

    [​IMG]

    So...this is the final week. We've had 7 weeks talking about playstyles, and now we are going to start the one that has more diversity, Weatherless Offense.

    Now, we are going to make this week the best of all. Yeah, you are going to give your thoughts about this and why should Weatherless be used instead of rain, sand, sun, etc. But, don't limit to this, there are a lot of things that can be said about the playstyle, so, like I said before, be open-minded. Here is a great example of what I'm seeking for. We started really good with the Week #1, I want to finish the same.

    I don't want to keep saying stuff, so here is when I stop talking and you begin to write. Last week, let's go!



    by LilOu
  2. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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  3. nyttyn

    nyttyn No regrets
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Hands down the most important aspect of weatherless offense teams, and by extension weatherless in general, is that they are not locked into groups of pokemon like weather is. You don't have to worry about using politoed, or Hail residual wearing down your mons, or your water types being useless in your sun - weatherless teams can just roll with any mons.

    Of course, that isn't to say you can just slap six pokemon on and call it a day. In fact, Synergy is extremely important to weatherless, as its main strengths come from the fact that it A. does not need to carry a crappy pokemon to induce weather, and B. has access to a larger pool of pokemon then any weather team. If your team isn't abusing those facts, then you're likely better off running weather instead.

    It's important to note though that Weatherless offense is an extremely open category - I would go so far as to say it isn't a play style in and of itself. DragMag, Hyper Offence, Stall, these are all playstyles that can carry the weatherless flag, but are not particularly defined by their weatherless-ness - they are moreso defined by the archtype they subscribe to. To repeat, Weatherless is simply defined as lacking the archtype of a weather inducer - I find it extremely difficult to discuss something that is defined by lacking a single element of play. Hyper Offence is defined by all-out balls to the wall zerking, Rain Offense is defined by a set of pokemon who seek to abuse drizzle - the definition of "lacks a weather inducer" for Weatherless Offense is far too vague, especially considering that there are at least so many kinds of Weatherless Offense (Hyper, DragMag, Offensive Baton Pass, Balanced) playstyles.

    It's also important to note that the choice of Weather vs Non Weather will depend on personal preference - while weather teams have the benefit of massive, passive boots, weatherless teams will have the important edge of diversity.

    Also why no sets. It's a bit hard to talk about playstyles without sets, especially give how vague this weeks playstyle is. At the very least, are we allowed to mention specific pokemon? In addition if you insist on no sets, could you cut out the "New Sets" advice? Especially since this is the final week
  4. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    The week I liked the most was the #1. People started posting their thoughts and suggestions of what to do and what not to do. They started to refute each others arguments and the discussion was interesting. But the thing changed when Week #2 went up. It began to be full of Pokemon suggestions, (I have to say that I have nothing against posting sets), however, the thread was almost the same as the OU Teambuilding thread. That's why, considering this is the final week, I want you to write what do you think about the style, not to post sets and then leave.

    As for naming pokes, sure you can do it. Just, as I said before, don't post a set and leave.

    I'll continue answering your other questions and issues later, I have to do my homework.
  5. kakuna

    kakuna

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
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    It's too bad to see this go.

    In terms of weatherless offense hazards are essential. With the banning of deoxys-defense custap berry skarmory has taken the role for many players/ Its access to a fast taunt and both offensive hazards (spikes and stealth rock) make him an ideal choice. Custap berry crustle is another pokemon that plays out similarly. Crustle's main advantage is attack power and the ability to dispatch of starmie, who spins on skarmory for days. Crustle's good power and coverage sometimes allow it to kill something before it goes down which is a huge help. Azelf is a stealth rock setter that does not get enough love, he has access to taunt, screens, fire blast, psychic, thunder(bolt), and explosion. Tailoring a set to fit your team perfectly is not difficult with his wide movepool. For example if you hate hippowdon because he walls your Subsalackion you can just run grass knot. Aerodactyl has a niche because he is so fast, outspeeding scarf politoed. Unfortunately low accuracy stone edge and weak fire blast or earthquake are not very strong, but they can get the job done. Very fast taunt is also very useful. What is really great though is custap berry forretress. This set sees ubers usage, but practically none in OU. While forretress does not get taunt it has rapid spin and strong STAb gyro ball so deter hazard setters. It beats skarmory, crustle, aerodactyl, and it beat deoxys-d. An interesting one from UU is froslass- while froslass doesn't get stealth rock it has a few key traits that make it great. Froslass is a ghost type so it can't be spun against. Froslass gets taunt and more importantly cursed body, so it has a very good chance of getting up two layers of hazards versus scarftoed, factoring in hydro pump misses and cursed body luck.

    Hyper offense teams can be separated into two distinct categories- dual screens and pure offense. Deoxys was one of few who could bluff one or the other- now the only real choice for that is azelf. Dual screens is only really well done by a few- espeon, xatu, azelf, and uxie. (Uxie sort of works). These teams set up screens and then try to overwhelm the opponent with set up sweepers and maybe a choice scarfer. Pure offense teams only care about the score and will try to get KOs as fast as possible, leading with an offensive lead. These team tend to feature more choice users and maybe only one set up sweeper. To demonstrate this a dragon dance dragonite will fit better on a team with a dual screens espeon lead, but a choice band dragonite (or choice scarf salamence (or both)) will fit better with a more offensive lead like sash landorus. (stealth rock/imprison OR explosion/earthquake/hidden power ice @ focus sash). This isn’t set in stone but it is generally works better this way from my experience and personal use.
  6. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    Weatherless Offense has just one the last two BW Tours. Shakeitup also used it in the quarters/semi's. Masterclass says he used it other then the semis.

    Masterclass
    Skarmory (cutsap lead)
    Dragonite
    Gengar
    Rotom-W
    Jirachi
    Landorus-T

    Shakeitup:
    Skarm (lead)
    Gengar (Scarf)
    Kyurem-B (Sub/roost)
    Lucario
    Thundy-T (lefties-DD)
    Alazazam
  7. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Ok, it seems that this is not gonna work. My entire fault. From now, you are allowed to suggest pokemons to use.
  8. Dr Ciel

    Dr Ciel

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    Alright, so for me, I believe the 2 most crucial roles in an Offense team, especially a Weatherless Offense team are the Suicide Lead and the Dual Screener. The Suicide Lead provides rocks, and even a couple KO's before getting KO'd itself. On the other hand, the Dual Screener is more of a support role for frail sweepers, such as Lucario, Salamence, and many many others. Now, the prime example of a Dual Screener is the always reliable Espeon. Espeon is an excellent choice to have on offensive teams, with it's excellent Speed, decent bulk, access to arguably the best ability in Magic Bounce, and the obvious Dual Screens make him a prime choice for an offensive team looking for a Dual Screener. Now, on the topic of Suicide Leads, Azelf is the prime candidate here, with it's high Speed stat, access to Stealth Rock, Explosion, and Taunt make it the #1 Pokemon to use in teams that need a lead to start the momentum. Here are the sets for both Espeon and Azelf.

    [​IMG]
    Espeon @ Light Clay
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Psychic / Psyshock
    - Baton Pass / Hidden Power [Fire]

    Here's the most popular Espeon set on most offensive teams, the Dual Screens set. Obviously, the EV set is pretty straightforward, making it bulky as possible, while also taking advantage of it's high speed to set up dual screens effectively and quickly. Now, the first move in the moveset, Reflect, allows him to take some hits from the physical juggernauts in the OU tier, such as Scizor, Dragonite, Salamence and many others. Up next, Light Screen help it take hits from Pokemon that like to hit from the Special side of the spectrum, such as Keldeo, Volcarona, and even Thundurus-T. Up next is a toss up between Psychic and Psyshock. On one hand, Psychic helps Espeon beat Bulk Up Conkeldurr, a pokemon that can trouble a whole team, if you let it get enough Bulk Up boosts. On the other hand, Psyshock allows Espeon to beat Calm Mind Keldeo and Terrakion in sandstorm, as it hits their much weaker Defense stats. The final moveslot is also a toss-up between Baton Pass and Hidden Power Fire. Baton Pass, on one hand helps Espeon escape the clutches of those Pursuit users, most notably Scizor, as Espeon is naturally faster. Hidden Power Fire allows Espeon to beat Scizor outright before it can U-Turn, and with a Reflect up, Bullet Punch won't be doing nearly enough to KO it.

    [​IMG]
    Azelf @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-Turn
    - Explosion
    - Fire Blast

    As one of the forgotten Pokemon from Gen 4, Azelf returns to the gen 5 metagame with a vengance. Here, the goal of this set is to set up Stealth Rock and U-Turn out to the appropriate Pokemon or use Explosion to possibly grab a KO on the Pokemon that is currently on the battlefield. The EV spread is pretty straightforward, with Max Attack, letting it hit as hard as possible, while the Max Speed allows it to outspeed threats such as Gengar, Terrakion, Tornadus, and all Pokemon with a base speed of under 111. Now, on to the moveset. Stealth Rock, obviously is the crucial entry hazard that every team should use, as it cripples several troublesome Pokemon, such as Dragonite, Gyarados, Volcarona, and many other Pokemon. U-Turn is for grabbing momentum in the blink of an eye, turning around the match in a flash. Explosion is an excellent move that blows a huge hole in many Physically Defensive walls, such as Blissey, Politoed, and a few other physically defensive walls in the OU tier. Finally, we have Fire Blast, which always allows Azelf to OHKO Scizor before it can U-Turn out, while also grabbing the OHKO on opposing Ferrothorn, it can also be used to hit Forretress and just about any Steel type in the OU metagame, bar Heatran of course.​
  9. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    In my humble opinion, Weatherless Offense needs 'mons that are bulky enough to take an assault from the other weathers' trademark abusers. Getting a suicide lead and a bunch of sweepers would fall more into Hyper Offense in my view.

    Dragonite, for example, is an amazing 'mon to have on a weatherless team in my opinion. It has fantastic natural bulk which coupled with his useful array of resistances make him a great 'mon when fighting both sun and rain. Even if your opponent has 'mons which Dragonite can't take a hit from, it will still prove useful with its powerful Outrage and Extremespeed.
  10. EspeonX

    EspeonX

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    Alakazam is a good choice for Weatherless Offense. Magic Guard + Focus Sash makes it able to revenge kill most threats like +2 Terrakion/+2 Scizor (with HP Fire) and others. Magic Guard also makes it immune to Sand and Hail damage, which of course keeps the Focus Sash permanently intact. You could run Life Orb though, if you have ways of getting around boosted threats, but Alakazam is a good revenge killer.

    If you run HP Ice over HP Fire, you'll be able to lure out pokemon like Jirachi and Scizor, which makes Magnezone an excellent partner. It also resists Dark, Ghost and Bug in terms of synergy.

    However, Alakazam's downfall is it's movepool. Whatever it runs, there will always be something that can come in and 2HKO with ease. HP Fire allows Dragons to have a bit of fun with Alakazam, and Dragonite could grab a DD whilst you attack it with Psyshock, or it can just CB Extremespeed and OHKO if you lack the sash, or it can take anything you throw at it and 2HKO with Extremespeed. HP Ice will not OHKO through Multiscale, so Dragonite can make a good check to Alakazam.
    It will also have problems if it runs HP Ice, as Scizor, Jirachi and Metagross can simply 2HKO back. Jirachi and Metagross actually make good checks to Alakazam under Rain.

    With Weatherless Offense, I also think that it usually needs a way to prevent the weather from dominating. Heatran makes a good candidate for checking Sun teams, as do Latios and Latias (the latter can survive Venusaur's +2 Sludge Bomb and OHKO back, with 112 HP investment). Rain is a big problem that most, if not all, teams need a check to. Running things like Keldeo is one way to take Rain teams on. As for Sand, Landorus-I can give it problems by taking out Tyranitar and Heatran, whilst U-Turning out of Celebi which hurts it a fair bit.

    Just my (probably crap) 2 cents.
  11. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Palace Mavenis the Smogon Tour Season 15 Champion

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    As I said it in my thread, Weatherless is probably the funniest playstyle to use and the most versatile one. Weatherless Teams don't really have issues against Sand and Rain but they have some troubles against Sun. Weatherless offense is probably the unique viable playstyle when using a Weatherless Team because it really doesn't care about the opposite weather since it doesn't really let the time to the opponent to use his strategy. DragMag, CustapSkarmory Teams, etc are extremely good in the current metagame and really work well. Having a fast Stealth Rocker is extremely important because you have to keep the momentum during the whole game. SashTerrakion, Azelf, Mew, Jirachi, Garchomp, etc are extremely good at this job and most the of the time they don't only set up Stealth Rock...

    I have been using 2 weatherless teams on PO Ladder and peaked #1 twice with 2 alts even with Tornadus-T and Deoxys-D allowed which shows how good can be a weatherless team. My teams were Breloom / Jirachi / Latias / Terrakion / Landorus-I / Keldeo and Scizor / Latios / Jirachi / Dragonite / Keldeo / Landorus-I. As you can see it these teams are extremely powerful, fast and bulky as well. Having 2 rain resistances is probably the most important thing when building a weatherless because if you don't pack these resistances, you can be easily wrecked by a ScarfKeldeo in Rain for example. While Sand Teams don't have anything boosted but the Special Defense by the Sandstorm, Rains get their water moves boosted which make them extremely hard to handle. Then of course, bringing a Sun counter is just obligated because Volcarona is probably the scariest thing when using a weatherless team. Terrakion, Dragonite, Kyurem-B etc work well for this job.

    Another nice thing with weatherless teams is that you can use something over Politoed, Tyranitar and Ninetales and this is really enjoyable. How much times did you guys get mad because you couldn't use a "better" or a cooler Pokemon over your weather inducer? This spot is extremely important because you can use something to deal with your biggest issues like a Scarfer or a priority moves user (Mamoswine, Dragonite, Scizor, Breloom) or even something to be less weak to rain or sun.

    Weatherless Stalls are in my opinion unviable in the current Metagame because they are just too slow and are always getting pressured which makes these Teams unviable. It's really tough to handle Sun Offense and Rain Offense with a Weatherless Stall and it's even harder to beat rain, sand and sun stalls. So yeah to be honest only weatherless offensive teams are viable in the current Metagame.
  12. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Most weatherless offense teams should be utilizing fast stealth rock leads. Generally, like Ojama said, they are a bit weak to sun teams (although Scizor sits at #1 right now, and Latias nets a lot of usage. Mamoswine can also be used as a sash lead for rocks since it can beat sun as well). I generally prefer Terrakion since its Taunt and SR are really fast (you get to fuck over most sand teams and opposing Skarm Leads lmao).

    Weatherless offense isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Not being dependent on the weather allows you to focus on overall synergy and having a team that is stable on its own, being able to play in or out of weather, is quite useful in my opinion. Losing games because you lost the weather war is quite annoying and can shut down a lot of weather teams.

    Weatherless offense can also run those random weather moves. They do work. They might seem gimmicky, but the shit works on stuff like weatherless TR offense (HP Fire Porygon2 + Sunny Day Cresselia + Destiny Bond / SR / TR / Spore Smeargle)

    Just some random, uncoordinated thoughts on the matter.

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