OU RMT [WiFi]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Norid, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. Norid

    Norid

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    Forward

    Hi there. This is my first RMT, so bear with me. There are a few things to keep in mind here. This is a team meant for wifi battling, so as far as I'm concerned I am disallowed from using rotom-a forms. Most of my wifi friends/acquaintances specifically forbid it from being used, so please do not suggest using one of its forms. Secondly, I am having a bit of trouble deciding on the moveset for my last pokemon, so I apologize in advance if the analysis there seems vague or non-existent. Lastly, I can't rng legendaries well, so I would rather stay away from as many legendaries on my team as possible (I'm already pushing it with two). Without further do, let me present the team building process.

    Team Building Process

    First of all, I wanted to try out a unique lead, one that isn't seen very often. Crobat doesn't bring much. However, what it can do, it does really well.
    [​IMG]
    Unfortunately, Crobat doesn't contribute much to the team aside from stopping other leads from setting up. This requires the use of a second lead. Lead Heatran is chosen because...well...it's Heatran. Do I really need to explain that?
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    So now I have a fast taunter and a lead to set up stealth rock. Now I need a sweeper. 3 options came to mind: Infernape, Lucario, Tyranitar. I was already iffy about having perma sand storm, and the fact that the acid rain glitch exists means it's going to be between either infernape or lucario. Between the two, I chose lucario because of its access to extremespeed.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Using lucario brings up some concerns. Gliscor is an extremely good check to lucario, so I need something to deal with it. A water type would be able to deal with gliscor, as well as add some bulk to my team. Of the many available, I chose Vaporeon, because of its ability to switch into any water type move, as well as pass wishes off to the rest of my team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Salamence isn't a threat anymore, but Dragonite can still be a problem. Lucario and Infernape are also constant concerns. With this in mind, I opted to put a ghost type and another steel type to take care the aforementioned problems. Scizor is the natural choice, with its deadly bullet punch to bring to the mix. So long as it isn't switched into a fire type move, it should be fine. As for the ghost type, I opted for Dusknoir. It would be a great spin blocker, and Will-O-Wisp would be a great way to deal with physical sweepers.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    That should be it, right? Wrong. As it turns out, this team has a massive flaw. Any Zapdos would leave a charred crater where my team used to be. Furthermore, Scizor really only adds a liability at this point; it doesn't contribute much to the team while its weaknesses limit when and against whom I can switch. I decided to switch out Scizor for a grass type, and after some consideration, I decided upon Shaymin.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now we're good, right? Nope, not quite. Blissey still quite easily walls me in. Now, there are both pro's and con's to using Dusknoir, but going up against a stall team with Blissey is definitely not a 'pro.' An option, then, would be to use a SubSplit Gengar. Gengar doesn't have to permanently replace Dusknoir, but I should use it if I know my opponent's team relies heavily on Blissey.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Finally, we're done...except not quite. A few friends/acquaintances of mine like to play with an Event Clause on. While I realize this deviates from OU Standard tiering, I certainly wouldn't mind altering my team to appease my friends and having enjoyable matches with them. In place of Shaymin, I can instead use a SubPunch Breloom or a bulky Spikes Roserade.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]|[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    The Team
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]|[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. Norid

    Norid

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    The Team Breakdown


    [​IMG]
    Type:
    Poison/Flying
    Nature:
    Jolly (+Spe,-SpA)
    EV's: 104 HP / 152 ATK / 252 SPE (
    104 HP / 136 DEF / 16 SPD / 252 SPE)
    Ability: Inner Focus
    Held Item: Leftovers/([​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Roost
    -- U turn
    -- Brave Bird (Super Fang)
    -- Taunt
    Summary:
    The "unique lead." Am I shooting myself in the foot by using Crobat as opposed to another lead? Perhaps. Do I care? Not really. Despite what people may say, using Crobat doesn't necessarily mean I'm handicapping myself. Crobat doesn't do much, but what it can do, it does very well. I just have to play to its strengths while mitigating its weaknesses.
    Why I Chose Crobat Over Gliscor:
    This has been asked a lot, but I don't blame anyone. In terms of type and overall bulkiness, Gliscor has Crobat beat (overall usefulness is arguable). However, the main reason why I keep Crobat over Gliscor is that it outruns the extremely popular Azelf lead. Considering how I don't have any spinners, I simply cannot afford to have rocks set up so early in the game. Later on, I feel that rocks become less of a detriment, but in the early stages of the match it's absolutely crucial that I prevent my opponent from getting rocks up. This, above all else, is why I choose to keep Crobat over Gliscor.
    Versus Other Leads:
    [​IMG]: Taunt followed up by a U turn. Even if Azelf switches out first turn, it still accomplishes my goal of preventing it from setting up rocks for now.
    [​IMG]: The biggest threat to my bat. Speed tie means that 50% of the time, Aerodactyl is going to do whatever it wants, be it set up rocks or just OHKO me with Rock Slide. Even if I happen to be on the winning side of the speed tie, it's only a 50% chance at that to prevent aerodactyl from setting up rocks, the other 50% chance being it OHKO'ing me. In short, I only have a 25% chance of stopping Aerodactyl while keeping Crobat alive. My only solution is a hard (manual) switch into Vaporeon.
    [​IMG]: Similar to other leads. Ice beam will hurt, but it won't OHKO.
    [​IMG]: U turn out. While OHKO'ing with Brave Bird is possible, it's rare, and I'm not going to take the risk of getting OHKO'd myself.
    [​IMG]: Meteor Mash will hurt, and a Meteor Mash followed by a Bullet Punch will probably kill crobat before it gets a chance to u turn out. However, knowing that it can survive at least one of its moves should it decide to attack me instead of set up rocks gives me the confidence to taunt it first turn, and hard switch out if it becomes necessary.
    [​IMG]: Flinch immunity allows me to get a taunt off and then U turn. Variants that carry Ice punch will hurt, but it won't be enough to OHKO.
    [​IMG]: Fake out won't flinch crobat. Taunt and U turn. In the event that it decides to encore instead of fake out/set up rocks, hard switching will be necessary.
    [​IMG]: Even though Ninjask will go first, taunt will stop it from baton passing off whatever move it used during its first turn.
    [​IMG]: Taunt stops the sleep powder or spikes. HP Ice will hurt, but it won't be enough to OHKO.
    [​IMG]: Stone edge would be the more painful of the two attack moves hippowdon can throw at crobat, but neither stone edge nor ice fang will be enough to OHKO it. Taunt and u turn away.


    [​IMG]
    Type: Fire/Steel
    Nature: Naive (+Spe,-SpD)
    EV's: 252 SPA / 4 SPD / 252 SPE
    Ability: Flash Fire
    Held Item: Shuca Berry ([​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Stealth Rock
    -- Fire Blast
    -- Earth Power
    -- Explosion (HP Ice)
    Summary:

    The "utility lead." Having two pokemon both using lead roles seems weird, but it actually works out fairly well. Crobat and heatran both contribute what neither one could accomplish on its own.


    [​IMG]
    Type: Fighting/Steel
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk,-SpA)
    EV's: 252 ATK / 4 SPD / 252 SPE
    Ability: Inner Focus
    Held Item: Life Orb ([​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Swords Dance
    -- Close Combat
    -- ExtremeSpeed
    -- Crunch (Bullet Punch)
    Summary:

    Life Orb, Swords Dance Lucario. Playing well, and a little bit of prediction, will allow me to switch in Lucario to set up swords dance and (hopefully) start sweeping. I opted for Lucario over other sweepers because of its ability to use extremespeed, which can be used in tight spots, or to guarantee a revenge kill if required. Lastly, I opt for crunch to deal with ghost types (hacked rotom forms, dusknoir and gengar). Leaving out ice punch means I won't be able to hit dragonite or gliscor as hard as I would want to, which means the remainder of my team is going to have to remedy that.


    [​IMG]
    Type: Water
    Nature: Bold (+Def,-Atk)
    EV's: 188 HP / 252 DEF / 68 SPE (
    252HP / 244 DEF / 12 SPE)
    Ability: Water Absorb
    Held Item: Leftovers (
    [​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Wish
    -- Protect (Roar)
    -- Surf
    -- HP Electric
    Summary:

    The bulky water type. Its ability to switch in on any water type move (like those aimed at Heatran) is a welcome addition to the team. Wish would also be a welcome addition to my team, healing a lot of my team members who cannot heal themselves. Surf takes care of Gliscor, who is a very prominent Lucario check. Lastly, I opt for HP Electric to deal with things like Gyarados.


    [​IMG]
    Type: Ghost/Poison
    Nature: Timid (+Spe,-Atk)
    EV's: 4 DEF / 252 SPA / 252 SPE
    Ability: Levitate
    Held Item: Life Orb (
    [​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Substitute
    -- Pain Split
    -- Shadow Ball
    -- Focus Blast
    Summary:

    SubSplit Gengar. One of the few things Blissey cannot wall in, and requires very little setup (just a bit of prediction so it isn't sent in on a Thunderwave). Shadow Ball and Focus Blast together are completely unresisted. The constant health being lost from Sub and life orb only help Gengar with the use of Pain Split. The immunity to ground type moves doesn't hurt, either.


    [​IMG]
    Type: Grass
    Nature: Timid (+Spe,-Atk)
    EV's: 252 SPA / 32 HP / 224 SPE
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Held Item: Life Orb (
    [​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Seed Flare
    -- HP Fire
    -- Leech Seed
    -- Rest
    Summary:
    I switched out Specs Shaymin for a Life Orb variant. Specs Shaymin is a wrecking ball, but I would benefit much more from the adaptability of a Life Orb Shaymin instead. Having Shaymin on my team allows me to check bulky water types. Leech Seed can keep my team in relatively good health, and Rest allows Shaymin to recover all of the Life Orb recoil. I opt for HP fire to deal with steel types (notably Forretress) who attempt to set up on Shaymin.


    The Switch-Ins


    [​IMG]
    Type: Ghost
    Nature: Impish (+Def,-SpA)
    EV's: 252 HP / 28 ATK / 228 DEF
    Ability: Pressure
    Held Item: Leftovers (
    [​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Will o Wisp
    -- Pain Split
    -- Shadow Sneak
    -- Earthquake
    Summary:

    The first of the "optionals" on my team, and the second Ghost type overall. Dusknoir would replace Gengar, and behave as a more defensively oriented spin blocker with the ability to pass around burns. Shadow sneak is chosen over any of the punches because of its priority and because 'Noir gets a STAB bonus from it. To round it off, Earthquake provides a decent damaging move, although 'Noir's first priority is to block spins, take hits, and burn potential sweepers.


    [​IMG]
    Type: Grass/Fighting
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk,-SpA)
    EV's: 12 HP / 252 ATK / 244 SPE
    Ability: Poison Heal
    Held Item: Toxic Orb (
    [​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Spore
    -- Substitute
    -- Focus Punch
    -- Seed Bomb
    Summary:

    The second "optional." Breloom would replace Shaymin in the event that one of my friends/acquaintances enforces an Event Clause (no Event Pokemon). Breloom has both the best passive recovery move in the game, as well as the best Sleep-inducing move. Being basically immune to status effects is amazing, as it would make other status-inducing moves fail. With good planning, substitute and/or spore ensures that Breloom gets at lest one focus punch off, and seed bomb would provide a STAB alternative in case the focus punch is resisted.


    [​IMG]
    Type: Grass/Poison
    Nature: Calm (+SpD,-Atk)
    EV's: 252 HP / 120 DEF / 136 SPD
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Held Item:
    Leftovers ([​IMG])
    Moveset:
    -- Spikes
    -- Grass Knot
    -- Rest
    -- HP Fire
    Summary:

    The final "optional." Roserade is the bulkier alternative to both Shaymin and Breloom. The EV's allow for it to survive a Bullet Punch from Scizor. Grass Knot is taken as Roserade's STAB move, since many of the bulky water types are also very heavy. HP Fire will deal with any steel types who want to switch in on Roserade to set up. Rest is chosen over the other options for its ability to completely heal Roserade, then be switched out and allow Natural Cure to remove the sleep status.
  3. Norid

    Norid

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    Threat List

    [​IMG]

    Offensive and Defensive Threats:

    I've tested my team a bit, but I would like to play a few more games before I can definitively write down a list of pokemon who threaten my team either offensively or defensively. Alternatively, if any raters notice glaring flaws on my team, please be sure to let me know in the comments and I'll add them here.
  4. Norid

    Norid

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    Ending:

    To summarize, creating this RMT was a neat experience...although I wish someone had warned me about how long it was going to take, and im not even technically done yet! Whether or not I'm "crippling" myself by using Crobat as my lead is anyone's call, but it's been working out really well so far in the few games I've been able to play. I know my team isn't perfect yet, as shown by my inability to decide on which Shaymin build to use, so I hope you, the rater, can provide some insight for me.

    Credits:

    This is long overdue. Firstly, I would like to thank everyone in #ratemyteam for putting up with my incessant pleas for help. In particular, I would like to thank:

    MetaNite: You have been an amazing amount of help. You got the framework for my team put together, and were willing to work with my multiple restrictions and limitations. I applaud you for being so helpful and considerate, especially when I began questioning you about the tiniest of details. Hopefully I'll be able to return the favor someday.

    Gec: I would also like to thank you for helping me with the team building process. You alerted me to the fact that I could be easily walled in by Blissey, and suggested the very potent SubSplit Gengar as a counter to it.

    Jumpman16: Amazing, right? An admin took time off to help me out with my teambuilding. Although I was pranked into asking Jumpman for help, he rose to the occasion by listing out many potential concerns, and how I should deal with them. He alerted me to the fact that Scizor probably wasn't pulling its own weight, and also showed me how Zapdos left a big hole where most of my team used to be--playing against a couple of friends who used Zapdos confirmed this. He was the one who suggested Shaymin.
  5. Norid

    Norid

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    I'm not technically "done," because my threat list isn't completed yet, but I would appreciate it if anyone willing to rate could look this over and offer insight/constructive criticism. It would certainly make working on this gargantuan threat list a lot easier.
  6. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
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    Hey Norid I got your VM. :)

    Anyway this looks like an excellent wifi Team and I will do my best to make it better. However, I don't actually play Wi-fi so some of my suggestions my not be as vialbe/ needed on Wi-fi.

    First off you are slightly vulnerable to Infernape or a sweeper setting up on Shaymin like Dragonite or something. Still that weakness is quite small and should be able to managed realy well provided Vaporeon is healthy. I don't believe that the Spe EVs are needed so much. 12 Spe EVs is fine to outrun Scizor and the rest can go into HP or SpA.

    I do hav a few suggestions for you however. While Specs Shaymin is a huge wrecking ball I feel that you can realy benefit from the Flexability of a LO. If you decide to run LO shaymin then run Resst over Air Slash to recover off damage. Thanks to Natural Cure you can switch out after you have used Rest and be fully awake when you switch back in.

    I also think that Super Fang can work over Brave Bird if you wish. While it seems cruel to forgo STAB on Crobat, against many leads you state that it is not used that much (even vs Machamp whcih is when BB is really usefull). Super Fang takes off half the pokemons health which means that Lucario can use Extreme Speed with even greater ability.

    Lastly since Gengar outspeeds Lucario and Rotom is not often used (I presume this since its baned on wifi) Bullet Punch is an option on Lucario if Tyranitar (particually Scarf Tar) or Gengar are preventing Lucario from sweeping. Its an optional thing that you could sub in if Gengar was bcomming popular or something.

    Thats it really. Jumpman16 and Co did a pretty good job helping you with this team. GL for the Future!
  7. Shizzle

    Shizzle

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    I would change Brave Bird to Super Fang, I mean Brave Bird doesn't hit anything hard bar Azelf or Machamp, things like Swampert, Metagross and Heatran will happily stay in. Also I see a HUGE problem, its fairly simple too. So, you U-Turn against Machamp, to what? Vaporeon doesn't like taking on a Machamp, as Dynamic Punch will nearly ensure that Vaporeon will be on low HP even if it does manage to take out Machamp. So that could be a problem. So if you do decide to change Brave Bird to Super Fang, you can then change the EV spread to 104 HP / 136 Def / 16 SpD / 252 Spe. So this allows you to effectively use Super Fang, then U-Turn out to Vaporeon and finish Machamp off with 2 Surfs.

    Also I highly recommend you remove Shaymin from this team, it does not defeat Zapdos unless you predict the switch, and honestly his SpA stat is lacking, and leaves for so many things to come in and set up. I think a CS Flygon would work really well here as a revenge killer and scout, and can perform well as a U-Turn duo with Crobat to beat the most common lead, Azelf.

    Other than that its a solid team, good luck!
  8. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
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    You've already heard my thoughts on IRC, but I'll emphasize them here for you.

    Most importantly, I still think Gliscor over Crobat is a pretty important change for your team, giving you a Lucario counter, which is especially important when you aren't using Gengar (although I still maintain that Dusknoir is pretty terrible in OU), as well as a much better general fighting/physical check which works extremely well in combination with Vaporeon. Sure, Crobat's speed might be useful, but I've generally found that it's not that useful later on in the game, while a Earthquake/Toxic/Taunt/Roost Gliscor is incredibly useful, and along with the Gengar you've changed to should help hugely with your stall problem.

    I still don't get why you're using Shaymin as a counter to Zapdos - on the contrary Zapdos is generally seen as one of the best Shaymin counters, especially with Heat Wave. Not only that, but you already have a Heatran which is a much better way of dealing with Zapdos than Shaymin. However, you are quite weak to offensive water pokemon (Zapdos, Suicune), so Shaymin is a decent enough choice. Instead of Choice Specs, I'd use Life Orb, with HP Fire instead of Ice and Rest over Air Slash - non-STAB special flying is a pretty poor attacking type, and doesn't really hit anything that walls you. Alternatively, you could try a bulkier set with Protect/Leech Seed/Seed Flare/HP Fire, which is a great general water check, as well as being very useful for keeping your team healthy.

    If you need to replace Shaymin, there's not really any one pokemon that leaps out as a particularly good choice. I guess you could use a Leech Seed Venusaur to do a similar job as the set I mentioned for Shaymin, or you could try something like a Jolteon to give a different means of covering your problems with offensive waters (and Gengar to an extent).
  9. KidX

    KidX

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    Hello Nordic I got your VM

    Anyways, I would go with switching one of the moves on crobat to super fang preferably u-turn because with super fang and BB along with taunt and roost, crobat makes a great stall breaker, but IMO Tab is right and you should use stall breaker gliscor instead of Crobat.

    A replacement for shaymin could be LO Sceptile which has worked for me in the past.

    Anyways, Good Luck!
  10. Norid

    Norid

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    Sorry guys, I was pretty much out all weekend so I didn't get a chance to reply and edit my RMT appropriately.

    For starters, after looking back at my conversation with Jumpman, he didn't say that shaymin/grass type was for checking zapdos, but to rather round out my team with a fire/water/grass core and an ability to deal with bulky water types. As many here have said, Heatran would be a better Zapdos check.

    @Ginganinja: when you were talking about redistributing the EV's, which pokemon were you talking about? After some thought, Life Orb Shaymin would offer me a lot of flexibility that would otherwise be limited by choice specs. Using rest also takes advantage of Shaymin's ability. I'll definitely try it out when I can. I'll also try the bullet punch option for Lucario. Extremespeed's super priority is amazing, but a STAB bullet punch would certainly help out against pokemon like Gengar and TTar :D Lastly, I had never even considered replacing Brave Bird with Super Fang. I really like this idea. It's true that crobat would lose its pseudo revenge killing ability (especially against weakened machamps, grass types, and breloom/heracross), but super fang would offer so much more to my team. I'll run a superfang variant with a few games and see how that works out.

    @Shizzle: Yea, I'll definitely try out that super fang build instead. Also, that EV spread looks promising. I'll try it out, and if I find anything better I'll let you know. Hm, Choice Scarf Flyon? Its immunities would be a great asset, to be sure. It would certainly benefit my team a lot. Let me try out the LO shaymin ginganinja was talking about, and if I feel that it isn't helping out too much, I'll definitely try out Flygon.

    @tab: While gliscor definitely has bulk and type advantages in its favor, I fear that its lack of speed (especially against really common leads like azelf, and even less common ones like nape, jirachi, and aerodactyl) just acts as a stumbling block in the beginning phase of the match. However, I'd be more than willing to try out gliscor on my team. Just let me test out the various other suggestions listed here first, before I get to that one.

    @KidX: Hmm, you really think that u turn should be replaced by super fang, especially on a lead bat? I'm not so sure myself. Against set up leads, taunt would obviously be the better choice to any attack move. Against anti/attack leads, super fang, while taking out half its health, would also mean crobat gets KO'd by whatever move said anti lead uses. I think u turn should stay on lead bat, but I'll try it out anyways.
  11. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
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    @ Yeah regarding the EVs I should have bee nmore clear, My faullt :)

    I was talking about Vaporeon since the speed EVs are less usefull now than they were. 12 Speed is enough for Vaporeon to outrun Scizor and the rest can be alocated to something like SpD to tke special attacks slightly better.

    Have a Nice Day!
  12. Norid

    Norid

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    Ohh I see. Well, I'll tinker around with it and see if I can find a suitable EV spread.

    Anyways, I guess this is sort of a bump. Anyone else willing to rate?
  13. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Though you requested a rate, I will largely only be able to echo the posters above me, particularly as, not owning a DS, I know nothing about Wifi. Good team nonetheless.

    I noticed this:
    Bullet Punch goes over crunch, otherwise you can be easily stopped by the likes of Infernape, Starmie, Jolteon and Flygon. Its lower base power and poor base power make Espeed a nesessity. Nonethless it still works well against Gengar, ScarfTar and Aerodactyl, among other selected pokemon.

    Black Sludge should never be used, since if you are tricked, it allows the opponent to cripple another member of your team.

    LO Shaymin is definitely the best option. Very little can take a LO Seed Flare and be guaranteed to survive the following attack, although counters do exist depending almost entirely on the choice of Hidden Power. Fire hits Scizor and Skarmory, most notably, harder, whilst Ice hits Zapdos and Dragonite. If using HP fire you may want to drop the speed to outrun max speed gliscor, though perhaps on Wifi you can outrun other base 100s even with the imperfect IV. Rest should be on the set regardless.

    The spread for Vappy that I would recommend is 252hp 244def 12 spe. This gives a lefties number and good defenses on both sides, whilst outrunning standard Scizor.

    On Crobat, if you won't use BB against Machamp, who are you going to use it against? I would suggest Super Fang instead of Brave Bird, and moving all of your attack EVs to HP to improve your bulk on both sides. Nothing in OU bar a Ghost enjoys Super Fang, particularly in the early game where there is no appropriate low-health pokemon. This should help soften them up for a sweep. The extra bulk is helpful against things like Aerodactyl in the lead position, as well as helping you switch in later in the game.

    The final thing I have to say is that i would not recommend the use of your subs!

    Good luck.
  14. Norid

    Norid

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    Sorry, maybe it's because I'm really tired, but I have no idea what you're saying here. I feel like an idiot for saying this, but can you try to clarify this bit? Are you saying that I need both Bullet Punch and Extremespeed, and get rid of Crunch? Wouldn't that hurt me later on if I have to deal with ghost types?

    As for the rest...

    You're probably right about the Black Sludge. In my mind, I thought that if someone was trying to trick me, I could switch in crobat and have it slightly backfire, but I forgot that the opponent could just switch it back to another pokemon.

    I'll work on which HP I should carry on Shaymin.

    You're another person to recommend a different EV set for Vaporeon, so I'll try it out when I can.

    BB on crobat fulfills the role of a situational revenge killer, since crobat can OHKO heracross while resisting both of its STAB's, and OHKO Breloom. However, Super Fang is more useful to the team overall, and altering the EV spread to take hits from machamp and other anti leads ensures that crobat can get at least one super fang off.

    Lastly, if you don't think any of my subs are good, are there any you can recommend?

    Thanks for the rate!
  15. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I'm saying that if you use Bullet Punch, it is best used over Crunch. It obviously has its downsides. That particular variety of Lucario is best paired with a Pursuit trapper generally; you need to remove ghosts before it comes out. This makes it better suited to a team built solely around Lucario. Since your team isn't really, Bullet Punch would probably not be the best option.

    You don't need subs. That is what I was saying. I think that your current choices are better. Breloom is the only one you should consider using.
  16. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    Hi, I got your VM, so I'll rate this for you. Just note that my rate will focus around your main team, and not include the "switch-ins" of Dusknoir, Breloom, and Roserade. Something that I notice about your team is that it lacks a really solid answer to Lucario. Yeah, Gengar can supposedly check them, but once Gengar gets Pursuited, then its basically over for your team. An Adamant Swords Dance Lucario will OHKO Gengar will Bullet Punch anyway, so Gengar neednt even get Pursuited in some cases. While Shaymin's bulk and superior Speed often makes it a decent Lucario check, your team somewhat has problems with a well-played stall team from what I can see; Choice Specs Shaymin is practically an invitation for specially defensive Skarmory to come in and set up Spikes, and with three layers of Spikes + Stealth Rock set up, Shaymin will be OHKOed by an Adamant Lucario's +2 ExtremeSpeed. While I do realize that stall is pretty rare on wi-fi (or at least it used to be), stall will cause you problems nonetheless, so its something to look out for. As I briefly mentioned earlier, I dont think that Specs Shaymin is the best fit for your team; loads of Pokemon can come in on a resisted attack and set up, the most worrisome being Spikers like Skarmory and Forretress. The last thing that you want is to give Spikes users free chances to set up, as four Pokemon on your team take damage from Spikes, and before long youll find it hard to switch, even with Vaporeon's Wish-passing abilities.

    Many of my changes are similar to tab's, as his advice was really spot-on in terms of how to improve your team. Firstly, I'm definitely with him on changing Crobat to a Gliscor. What Gliscor does for your team is check Swords Dance Lucario, who, as I outlined earlier, makes for a pretty big threat to your team. Gliscor is also capable of running an extremely effective Stallbreaker set, allowing him to easily shut down stall teams. Use a set of Earthquake | Taunt | Roost | Toxic, an EV spread of 252 HP | 4 Def | 252 Spe, and a Jolly nature with the ability Sand Veil and the item Leftovers. While this set looks pretty similar to the Crobat set youre currently running, Gliscor can utilize the set infinitely better, as he has much higher physical Defense as well as a lack of a Stealth Rock weakness. With Gliscor on your team in place of Crobat, youve significantly reduced your aforementioned Lucario problems. However, there is still the issue of Spikestacking teams and how they will hurt you. I think the main issue is Shaymin, as common Spikes users will have no difficulty coming in on a resisted attack and setting up. While you can just switch in Gliscor to prevent said setup, they will have already laid one layer, and will continue to lay layers as long as you bring Shaymin in. The best and most effecient way to fix this is simply by changing Shaymin's set. I think that a Life Orb Shaymin is the best set for your team, as with it Shaymin is capable of letting Skarmory and Forretress switchin and attempt to setup Spikes, but simply nailing them on the next turn with Hidden Power Fire. Try a set of Seed Flare | Hidden Power Fire | Earth Power | Rest, an EV spread of 32 HP | 252 SpA | 224 Spe, and a Timid nature with the item Life Orb. In addition to preventing Spikers from setting up on you, Life Orb Shaymin has a lot more versitality in general, and can even use Rest + Natural Cure to fully recover its HP; all in all, I think its something that would be worthwhile to test out. As far as more minor changes go, I think that a good idea would be to swap Crunch for Bullet Punch on Lucario. The main reason that I suggest this is for giving Lucario the ability to OHKO Gengar and Choice Scarf Tyranitar who will otherwise revenge-kill him. Crunch only really helps you against Dusknoir and hacked Rotom-A, but Gengar can already dispose of them with his powerful Shadow Ball (though he must be behind a Substitute first). Another change that I think you should try out is using Hidden Power Ice in place of Explosion on Heatran. With Hidden Power Ice no longer on Shaymin, Dragonite will be finding more opportunities to come in and set up on your team, something which bodes ill for you. Hidden Power Ice allows Heatran to prevent Dragonite switchins from setting up, as well as OHKOing Flygon on the switch. Obviously if you made this change, you would want to use a Timid nature as opposed to a Naive one.

    Hope I helped, and good luck with your team; just PM me if you have any questions! :)
  17. GB_Packers_Ftw

    GB_Packers_Ftw LOOKS LIKE FAVRE GOT SHUT DOWN

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    668
    Hey, got your VM. Ill gladly give my 2 cents.

    First off, The only thing that crobat ever really does as a lead is keep the rocks off. ITs probably the best pokemon that can just keep rocks off first team next to aerodactyl...which is arguabley the best Suicide lead in the game. Problem is for crobat, that Aerodactyl sets up SR as well and...well im sure you've seen him played a million times.

    Now not to jump on the boat or anything, but im definately goign to recoemnd gliscor over crobat in the first spot. Crobat is just outclassed by gliscor, in almost every major area. It also kind of gives you another switch-in that actualyl won't instantly die. You can read what everyone else has already said, im just saying the ill back tab and snorlaxe.

    I feel like im echoing above but HP ice really should be on Heatran over explosion, and since this is WIFI if you can't get it then go ahead and throw dragon pulse on it. Most dragonites, and especialyl mixnites can't afford to run max speed, and plus heatran has that useful dragonresist to eat Draco Ms. Dragonpulse also has the added bonus of hitting kingdra on the switch, which will be very common bc of its 4X fire resist. Dragonite will do quite a number to this team, if you switch to HP fire on that lifeorb shaymin, which i would recomend (both the set and HP fire), then without dragon pulse you don't have anything to actually hit him with.

    Yeah, and also im not really sure how shaymin can counter zapdos. Its not overly bulky and even just a tbolt will do its number, let alone heatwave OHKO. Heatran is by far the better counter, which is why if it's possible ultimately i recomend HP ice over dragon pulse on Tran

    One things i always look at in teams fairly early is if they have a phazer. It's such an underrated part of Pokemon it stops sweeps, racks up SR damage, can even set you up with free turns or switchins. On almost all vaporeons i recomend Roar > HP electric. However i will agree that your team is gyara weak and with hp electric you are much better off. However, protect, while useful, is probably one of the msot predictable moves right now in the entire game. A good choice would be to run roar over protect. It would help you out alot especially if you run into alot of stat uppers, which i imagine you would on wifi.

    Sorry i wasnt able to shake things up and make some neat changes, but the small ones here, and above will go along way. I had a hard time rating this which is good, and this is a very solid team. thanks and if you need anything just drop in. ttyl
  18. Norid

    Norid

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    Wow, thanks for the rates and replies.

    I haven't been updating my original posts, so that's why a lot of the rates mention similar changes.

    Anyways, I should clarify why I have decided (for now) to use Crobat for Gliscor:

    While it is definitely true that Gliscor has Crobat beat in terms of type and overall bulkiness (usefulness is debatable), I think the largest reason why I still use Crobat is that it is able to outspeed lead Azelf. Azelf is an extremely common lead, and for good reason. Since I don't have a spinner on my team, I can't afford to have my opponent set up rocks early in the game. I feel that later in the game rocks become less of a detriment, but it's the early game phase that's crucial. That's why, above all else, is why I keep Crobat.

    Also, Snorlaxe, your opinion of replacing Crunch for Bullet Punch contradicts with what jc104 said. Although, both of you give solid reasons, so I guess I'll just have to try both out and decide for myself.
  19. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
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    1,775
    Only you really know how effectively you are removing ghosts. How many times you use crunch is a good indicator. I certainly know little about Wifi. The absence of Rotom-A makes it a better environment for Bullet Punch, but I really don't know how common the metagame's other ghosts are.

    If you rarely find yourself rarely using Crunch, use Bullet Punch. It is undeniably very useful, particularly given that you would expect Gengar to be more common on Wifi. Snorlaxe's argument is actually a little flawed; though Gengar can OHKO Ghosts with Shadow ball, very few people will switch their Dusknoir into Gengar knowing they will be KOed. Also, note that Crunch beats Celebi (probably rare on Wifi), Cresselia (probably common on Wifi), and a whole host of other Psychic-types.

    @ Dr Infernape - Ice Punch should never be used on SD Lucario. If you want to hit Gyarados, Zapdos and Dragonite use Stone Edge. Also, Bullet punch is the best move against Gengar - you lose without it. (And You Don't Need To Start Every Word With A Capital Letter!)
  20. Azlanslayer

    Azlanslayer

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
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    I Have Played With Lucario On Wifi Many Times,They Will Switch IN Zapdos Etc,And Gengar Too,Use Ice Punch Or Crunch On Lucario :D

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