OU Suspect Testing Round 1 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

[StarGengar]

Confirming im StarGengar (though i didnt make the cut lol)

Ok, when i red that those who wont vote can still make nominations, i was ready to flame inconsistent, darkie, etc. but now that i see all those posts, I think is better to skip anything redudant

So, i nominate Inconsistent, Darkrai, Skymin, Deoxys (all) and Latios under the same reasons everybody has nominated them.

Now with what i want to point:

Drizzle/Doryuuzu: "Wait, what? Those are two totally different things!"
In my opinion, they are actually really close to each other. To explain me further, lets recall the Platinum/HG/SS metagame:

(Btw, if you dont like massive recalls you can skip the next 7 pharagraphs)

First, I will start from the point of view that this meta was, even since before latias got banned, a pretty balanced meta (yeah I know what dragons were in gen 4, but lets face it, they werent as half as broken as a lot of things this gen). Offense, stall, HO, weather, wathever you wanted to use was viable just because none of these strategies was overpowered enough to relegate the other to novelties. Yes every one had its stars (Luke, Infernape, Mence among others in offense, the standart Hippo/Skarmbliss/Gyara/Rotom/filler for stall, etc.), but there was always enough space in the meta for your own gimmicks, your own playstyles.

Leaving that clear, ill go with the strategy that matters for my post: Weather.

In gen 4, the most exploited weather was, by far, sandstorm. Why? The one true reason was the permanent inducers: Tyranitar and Hippowdon were, by themselves, two great pokes, as Tar was a great set up sweeper/Choice bander/mixed sweeper, etc., and Hippo has always been a great wall/tank with great phazing and offensive capabilities, and with 2 totally different inducers, sandstorm was easy to fit on your team (because indeed, you didnt need to fit your team to sandstorm very much).

Still, the effects of sandstorm were not gamebreaking in a bit: 6% of pasive damage and 50% more Spdef on rock types are not what i would call dangerous, hovewer the damage is a nice bonus to offensive teams and the SpDef boost wasnt very exploitable (unless you wanted to make half of your team weak to scizors BP, bad idea). The only way a poke could beneffit directilly from sand (unless it was a rock type) was by sand veil, a handy but shaky ability only used by Gliscor and Garchomp.

And as there was sandstorm, ther was rain: With no permanent rain inducer, teams needed to rely in Rain Dance and a Damp Rock to make it last 8 turns. Teams had to always keep at leat one (of the most of time 3 or 4) rain dancers safe if they expected to win, and still had to sucessfully summon the rain is a sandstorm plagued meta. But when a player passed trought that, the results were memorable: with the boost to water attacks, all the swift swin sweepers, rain dish stallers, a 100% accurated thunder and, in some sort, the negation of SS, even good players should face 8 turns of complete chaos when facing rain. The balance was in the fact that rain only could last 8 turns before another hard set up, so rain players had to play their best to make those turns woth it.

Hail was an option as it haves the passive damage of SS and a 100% acc. Blizzard (like thunder in rain), hovewer, the only "benefit" lied on the ice pokes, with overall either poor typing, stats and/or options. Snow cloak and ice body were (and still are) the only abilities that exploit hail, and even those have poor distribution (only walrein usen ice body, and SC was, well, unreliable). That made it open to variety, but neither was hail better than other weather in anything.

And finnaly, Sun had in one way or another the pros and flaws of all other weather combined: it had the bennefits rain had, but also the 8 turns limit, the bad typing problem of hail and the lack of good exploiters of sandstorm: the boost in attacks was for fire types and the abilities were for the grass types, and this split in usefullness really hindered sun in general.

But even with all this, the metagame wasnt centralized by any of these, as all had a marked flaw: hail and sandstorm had the inducers, but werent game breaking, while rain and sun were the opposite, having good pokes with abilities that put the weather to use, but had to be set first.


Now with the actual matter, the nominations:

I nominate Drizzle just because it lifts the only hinder of rain teams, as they already posses everything else needed to rule the metagame. With permanent rain, manaphy, ludicolo, kingdra and crew dont need to sacrifice a move (and item) or risk a turn switching in to start their limited fest, but thats really the way it should be, as rain can, in the hands of a good player, end the match before anymore than 1 or 2 set ups.

I personnaly think this will bring back rain to a good (and fun) strategy rather than a nigthmare to face.

Hovewer, if drizzle is banned, the obvious result will be a meta where SS is the most dominant weather, with rain, hail and (thanks to drougth) sun being also viable strategies... or thats what i would like.

Sandstorm best toy, Doryuuzu, its the very definition of weather sweeper: massive attack with good typing and a blistering speed thanks to its ability, he has noting to fear from a lot of pokes in wich he can get a sword dance, and after that, is pretty much game. Kingdra at least really dont have the best set up moves (come on, with swift swim, sword dance>dragon dance all the way), neither the monstrous stats (if you havent noticed, 95 all aboard but speed is good, but it could be better) of Dory, she only beats him in typing (yes water/dragon rocks).

With the rise in SS there will be in the upcoming meta (i have red the posts and drizzle is going uber), Doryuuzu will become again the centralizing monster it was at the begining of the B/W meta. If he isnt banned rigth now, he will in round 2, so why to postpone it?

Once he is gone, SS will still have more options that in last gen (there will still be Randorosu, and if you havent noticed, Sandslash get Sand throw too lol)

I post them together because, in my opinion, one leads to the other.

Well, i think im done, ill edit if i remember something else. Sorry if i got too crazy with bolding or if i end being redudant, but i had to take it out from my chest.

 

[Vexatious]

Alright, while I did not have time to reach the required ranking I do have some cents to throw into this pot of nominations.

First and foremost, I want to say I feel this is one of the most balanced meta-games we have had. I'm sure people will attack me for this one, but stick with me. I'm going to cover the most consistent suspect nominations that have appeared here and give my final opinion of whether or not it should be banned.

Inconsistent: The name says it all. This move, as we know, increases sharply a random stat and lowers, by one stage, a second. While this seems fair as you have no control over the boosts, it is that same lack of control which makes it inconsistent. Using protect, you are given a 1/7 chance to hit the stat you want to increase. With the use of substitute, it's possible to further block attempts at breaking the inconsistent chain boost. Given speed and evasion as the building blocks for this chain, 2/7 of the stat boosts are positive. On the first turn, you have a 28.5% chance to hit either of those boosts. That's almost a 1/3 chance that you're going to be successful in your chain.

What's more is that a single inconsistent pokemon has the ability to sweep entire teams by itself. With multiple users of the move, one can easily fill an entire team of the users. With 6 inconsistent users, each having a 28.5% chance to sweep based on unblock-able luck of the draw, it's largely within the favor of a single pokemon getting the appropriate boost.

The prospect of trial and error being used in pokemon competitively goes against what most players play the game for. There is no prediction required, no team building required, no strategy required--merely luck. Given six chances to take a 1/3 success rate, it's almost a given that at least one, if not two, will get either evasion or speed and continue the chain until all stats are at a +6. Even if it is stoppable, it is a strategy that requires no strategy. A win win situation for the opponent using it with no risk for high reward.

Final Opinion: Ban

Drizzle/Drought: Permanent weather finally makes its way into standard play. Well, except for Sandstorm and Hail. What sets these two apart from the original weather of standard, is the pokemon that accompany them. Each raises water and fire attack, respectively, by 50% as well as supporting individual pokemon's abilities; abilities including doubling ones speed, increasing ones recovery rate, and restoring ones status's. The issue that is presented is not one ability, but multiple abilities that become threatening under the weather.

However, teams are built to be accompanied by the weather. The problem people have, is they attempt to counter pokemon in their beneficial weather environments rather than countering the weather itself. I would like to offer an example.

If say Pokemon X can easily punch holes into your teams structure, it is considered weak to Pokemon X. The team is then rebuilt, restructured, and retooled to include a check to this Pokemon. If, however the team is not re-evaluated, and if you are aware that the danger is present in your match, it is still possible to work around Pokemon X and even take down Pokemon X if you plan accordingly. Many teams focus on countering as many Pokemon as possible, and when presented with a new problem, they use creative solutions to fend it off. The game then becomes centered around this object. I feel we should treat weather in the same regard.

A weather team is fragile and unorganized with glaring weaknesses and little resistances with the loss of it's support. Just like a team that carries a specific counter to your own, without that one piece the whole team tends to fall apart. There are pokemon that can check entire mono teams, such as Vaporeon and Heatran respectively absorbing most STABs and auxiliary moves thrown at them. If your team is weak to a certain weather, you add a response to it like you would any other pokemon. If your team is weak, but you cannot afford a check, you can still work your way around the problem with prediction and clever use of your pokemon. If you can do neither, it is not the abilities fault but your fault as a trainer for not being able to win.

While I hate fighting weather teams and acknowledge they are difficult to take down and over-centralizing the meta-game as of this post, it is not something that goes against any rule that we have in place for banning nor is it unbeatable by any means in any situation.

Final Opinion: Leave Be

Manaphy/Doryuuzu: While on the topic of weather, there are two users that stand out amongst the rest of the abusers. Manaphy and Doryuuzu are possibly the largest threats of their respective environments and have caused nothing but a headache to the rest of the meta-game. With Manaphy's tail glow and hydration, and Doryuuzu's sword dance and sand throw, each pokemon is able to set-up easily, quickly, and sweep efficiently.

Once more, however, as with weather there are ways around these issues. Each pokemon has a severely limited movepool that hinders its ability to sweep. As I previously mentioned, if a team is weak to Pokemon X it should either rearrange itself to fix its problem or find its own way around the issue. Both Manaphy and Doryuuzu have counters and checks that need to be removed from the field before they can sweep. The problem is not that a player cannot stop these pokemon, it's that they could not stop the opponent from utilizing these pokemon.

Once more, as much as I hate weather and the aforementioned Pokemon, neither is directly breaking any rules that we have set forth for banning nor are they threats that cannot be dealt with in one way or another.

Final Opinion: Leave Be

Shaymin-S/Darkrai: To save space, I will cover both of the previous Ubers of Gen4 together. Shaymin-S, from now on out known as skymin, and Darkrai have reared their heads in Gen5 to wreck havoc on the meta-game; at least that what was expected.

Skymin's ability, serene grace, allows his Air Slash to flinch 60% of the time and Seed Flare sharply lower special defense 80% of the time. These numbers are ridiculous. Yet, we are presented with a similar pokemon, Jirachi. Jirachi retains the same percentage for flinch with his Iron Head. Though flinch can be crippling, it is still only a 60% chance, a percent shared with the likes of hypnosis. Hypnosis can shut down a pokemon, practically indefinitely, but comes with the shaky tag of 60%. However, when one is suddenly under the barrage of multiple at once, that shaky 60% for some reason becomes a reliable 60%. 60% is always 60% regardless of how we look at it. It is 10% over the half mark but still 40% off of the perfect mark. It is not game breaking nor is it unstoppable. With plenty of new rock, steel, and defensive pokemon Air Slash became much harder to use effectively and safely. Alongside stealth rock, Skymin does not have the ability to come in as much as it would like making it much easier to work around and attend to.

Darkrai is mostly challenged for his ability to use the unique Dark Void. The second highest successful sleep move in the game, Dark Void is still overshadowed by Spore. While a fast sleeper, Darkrai's strength relies on his sleep. In gen4, Darkrai's base-135 special attack was unheard of, yet here in gen5 there are monsters with higher bases around every corner and more diverse movepools to utilize them. At the same time, Spore is just as prevalent and deadly accurate. Neither of his qualities is an extreme that is unmatched or unbeaten by another pokemon, leaving him a healthy balance between the two. A fast sleeper with decent attack and horrible move-pool.

Neither pokemon break the rules we have set nor force excess luck into the game.

Final Opinion: Leave Be

Deoxys-A/N: Deoxys is a powerhouse of a pokemon. With over the top speed, attack, special attack, and an immense move-pool he can easily cripple an entire team. As a lead, his strengths are unmatched. Between Psychic and Fighting, he has vast coverage. Being able to throw out either Psycho Shock or Superpower at a whim, he is able to smash any switch in for heavy damage. If one is resisted or immune, the other is able to cover the first move and still out speed the opponent making it useless whichever pokemon was switched in.

While most pokemon have counters or checks, there are no consistent pokemon to handle Deoxys. He can easily pound away any move off of his amazing stats and punish his checks heavily. Most checks can only take a single hit before being taken out. This limits the ability to stop Deoxys and throws a large favor into the opponents hand when using him against the player and removes most of the prediction on the deoxys user's side.

For the same reason Rayquaza is still in Ubers, Deoxys provides to diverse a movepool, coupled with too good a speed and strength stat spread to be effectively stopped without sacrificing part of your team.

Final Opinion: Ban

Wobbufet: The original shadow tag user and still a nuisance, Wobbufet continues to be a great counter to many pokemon. In the same vein as Shandera, he can trap your pokemon and eliminate them quickly and efficiently. However, with prediction and a careful selection of moves, it can become workable around to fight. Each shadow tag user is merely a threat that needs to be addressed properly. I feel that it causes you to become more careful with your move choice especially if you are already aware that that pokemon exists to stop you.

Final Opinion: Leave Be

Alright I definitely rambled a bit there, but those are my opinions on the current suspects that are seeing nominations for banning. You are free to discount my opinion, obviously, as this is merely excess information to help guide votes to their decisions.

 

[sxof]

Apparently no one has nominated him yet, but i consider this Pokemon needs to be banned for a healthier metagame.

Blaziken was introduced in Gen 3 with a nearly unresisted STAB combo, which hit both Skarmory and Blissey, that era's premier walls, supereffectively. His low speed stat held him back from being a top-tier sweeper, however his wallbreaking capabilities were unquestionable. In Gen 4, Infernape showed the ferocity of a Fire/Fighting type with only a slightly higher speed stat, never dropping below the top 10 most used pokemon. Now, Blaziken has the potential to outrun the entire metagame in a few turns, while retaining the movepool to strike all defensively-oriented pokes supereffectively.

Blaziken @ Expert Belt
ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 40 atk / 252 satk / 216 spd
Rash Nature
- High jump kick
- Fire Blast
- Solarbeam
- HP Electric / Earthquake / Substitute / Baton Pass

^ In permanent sunlight, Blaziken breaks OU the same way Doryuzu in sand and Manaphy in rain do. This chick can and will sweep through any team without a weather setter. To realize what the monstrosity named Blaziken can achieve, let's take a look at some calcs of him versus the most hardcore OU walls (except from Hippowdon and Politoad).

Hi jump kick vs. 252/252+ Porygon2: 56.4% - 67.4%
Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Cresselia: 51.6% - 60.8%
Fire Blast vs. 252/252+ Gliscor: 69.8% - 82.5%
Fire Blast vs. 252/252+ Zapdos: 57.3% - 68%
HP Electric vs. 252/252+ Gyarados: 65.7% - 77.9%
Earthquake vs. 252/252+ Tentacruel: 53.8% - 63.7%
Solarbeam vs. 252/252+ Burungeru: 53.5% - 62.9%
Solarbeam vs. 252/252+ Vaporeon: 49.6% - 58.4%

In short, he 2HKOs the entire meta without any setup, but that's not the issue; the problem is that after he does so, he becomes faster than Jolly Scarfchomp, while no priority move in the game OHKOs him. If that's not broken, then nothing is. At least there are some pokes Doryuzu cannot 2HKO (Gliscor, Bronzong, Virizion, etc), while Manaphy can be revenged relatively easily (by Denchura, Jolteon, Gengar, etc). Blaziken can be neither walled nor outsped.

(side note: I didn't include Deoxys-A's Extremespeed and max hp Latias, since these two have a high chance of being banned)

I have also prepared an SD set which is literally impossible to stop, but i'll wait till i test it a bit more and have some logs to prove its brokenness.

Assessment: Any team without Latias, Deoxys, a weather setter, lots of priority moves or multiple checks to Blaziken will be swept if he manages to hit the opponent's bulky water-type on the switch-in.

 

[Gabe]

I didn't make the rank, but I feel one thing besides what others have listed should be banned.

Sleep-inducing moves:

We can ban Darkrai, but I don't believe Darkrai is really the problem anymore. Once you put a Pokemon to sleep, whether it is through Spore, Hypnosis, Dark Void, Sing, Grasswhistle, or Sleep Powder, you have effectively KOed that Pokemon thanks to the change in sleep mechanics. It is completely useless, and now a dead-weight to your team. Sleep-inducing moves are broken, and better than OHKO moves now. You can ruin any counter your Pokemon supposedly had. This has got to go.

 

[Nastyjungle]

I didn't make the rank, but I feel one thing besides what others have listed should be banned.

Sleep-inducing moves:

We can ban Darkrai, but I don't believe Darkrai is really the problem anymore. Once you put a Pokemon to sleep, whether it is through Spore, Hypnosis, Dark Void, Sing, or Sleep Powder, you have effectively KOed that Pokemon thanks to the change in sleep mechanics. It is completely useless, and now a dead-weight to your team. Sleep-inducing moves are broken, and better than OHKO moves now. You can ruin any counter your Pokemon supposedly had. This has got to go.

Just a quick post to say don't forget Grasswhistle.

 

[D0nut Eater]

For those who are wondering, the only accounts which have yet to be confirmed are:
grimm70
-zero-
spacial drift
zfs1
panamaxis

 

[Chou Toshio]

The sleep discussion is going on in Policy Review as we speak, so please follow it and know something is being done on the subject.

 

[IcyMan28]

I didn't make requirements, but I would like to toss in my two cents.


-Inconsistent: This is simply uncompetetive, and I support its banning for that reason alone. I mean it is statistically proven that for Double Team to be worth it, the opponent has to miss twice. In other words, the better player will generally win. It's those times when the worse player wins on that small chance alone that makes Evasion in general an uncompetetive strategy, and we comfortably ban that. Additionally, all of the users of Inconsistent have alternative abilities, so banning the ability is a simpler course of action.


-Sleep Moves: Let's be real here, Darkrai isn't the issue. What so many people have highlighted is that sleep has become an even better status condition that FRZ thanks to the upgrade it received this generation. Unless you are ResTalk Shuffle Gyara/Milotic, who's strategies rely on sleep, you are essentially crippled for the rest of the match, useful as nothing more than death fodder. Base 135 SpA + boosting move isn't really anything special this gen, especially when your main attacking option is a mere 80 BP. Sleep kept Darkrai out of OU last gen, it nearly saw Venusaur pushed out of UU because of it, and it gave Breloom what was basically its only niche (SubPunch + Spore would have been nothing special without the ability to force a guaranteed sleep). It was good then, and it's even better now, and I'm glad PR is putting it under the magnifying glass.


-Deoxys-A: I'm not going to overhype it like everyone else has. What I am going to say is that despite its issues, it still manages to easily remove 1-2 pokemon from the game on a regular basis. It's offensive stats are really just too extreme for anything other than Jirachi / Meta / Bronzong / Spiritomb / Obscure Pokemon to handle, and the fact that this select group is the only thing standing in its way makes it the perfect lure for them.


-Shaymin-S: I've always been a huge proponent of this pokemon, right from the start. People have always (for whatever reason) dismissed grass as a shitty typing and, offensively speaking, it has been. Traditionally, defense is where it shines. However, Shaymin-S does it just a bit too well because it has access to flying-STAB as a backup, and otherwise has just enough moves to scrape together a Scarf, Specs, LO, or Subseed set - and do it well. The power is what distinguishes it from Jirachi, as the side effects of Jirachi's moves are, while annoying, not directly connected to the power of the attacks themselves. A little burn or flinchhax here and there isn't so bad, because Heatran can still stay in and counter it so long as that one Fire Blast breaks through. If Serene Grace gets the SpD drop on Nattorei (an otherwise perfect counter), Air Slash will finish it off and it is over. The speed is what distinguishes it from Togekiss, and superior typing. Kiss has to waste a slot ThunderWaving if it wants to flinch anything, Skymin does not. It has more resistances to come on with its decent bulk, and is fast enough to where it doesn't worry about a stray Stone Edge or Outrage coming its way - if it does, then you know its a scarf set and can deal accordingly. And with Sceptile and Shaymin-L still being perfectly viable alternatives, as well as the new Nattorei and eventually Perversity Jaroda, we won't be lacking in the grass-type offense department. I hate to see it go, but I won't mind the game it leaves behind.


-Drizzle / Drought / SandStream: Notice how I lumped these three into the same category. Why? Because, as I noted in the above paragraph, they are finally similar enough for me to be able to do so. With all the controversy about Manaphy and Dory and whatnot, these abilities really do seem to stand out as the method behind the madness. "Manaphy's Hydration is just the cherry on the top," and "Dory completely remodels the speed tier structure" are a few sentiments I've seen echoed in the other thread and this one. But really, it isn't Hydration - the rain activating it is what makes it an issue. Same for Dory and its average base 302 speed max. Sand Throw isn't what gets it to 604, its the Sand blowing behind it. To be fair, Rain sweepers do have the ability to simultaneously boost speed and power, but it hasn't been an issue so long as it is contained within eight turns.

Banning these abilities may be the way to go. If Kingdra, Manaphy, Kabutops, and Shell Break Gorebyss are all manageable outside of rain (and they are, in my experience), but they suddenly become demigods in rain...then limit their rain. If Dory and Landlos aren't exceedingly powerful outside of sand, but then become impossible to defeat in Sand (which they aren't), then stop the Sand. All of the weather inducers have alternative abilities through the Dream World, and when those are released, they can be re-allowed into play. I really hate to say it too, as I love the diversity the abilities bring but, until such is true, these abilities may need to be banned for the support they provide to other pokemon.

 

[Shur.tugal]

Just to clarify, how will this actually work? Will each nomination be voted on all at once, or will they each be given a suspect test, like in Gen. 4?

Sorry if this seems like a dumb question. I'm just unsure. Thanks in advance.

 

[Raikaria]

While I didn't make the cut for the nominations [I played on the Pokemon Online server primarily, and didn't go to the Smogon Server because after dealing with Darkai and freinds on PO, I didn't want to deal with them again], I feel I've played enough Gen 5 to put foward some food for thought.

Sleep Moves: The discussion going on in the PR forum, I wholeheartedly agree with. With the new sleep mechanics, sleep may as well be a OHKO move with far higher accuracy, PP, wider distribution, and gives you at least one free turn on top of it all to set up with something such as Darkari, or Breloom. Something which is sacrificed to sleep is out of the game, unless you get very lucky, or survive enough turns. And in Gen 5, the latter isn't going to happen.

Some people may quote Lum Berries, Sleep Talk, and Insomnia as 'counters' to Sleep. Lum Berry only works once, so you can't switch into a sleep inducer such as Darkai, or even Hypnosis Gengar. Sleep Talk is no longer a TM, and is totally luck based. Finally, the only even half decent user of Insomnia is Honchkrow, who has far better abilities to be using, and can't even outspeed Breloom anyway, let alone Darkrai.

It's like suggesting that everyone should run Sturdy to deal with OHKO moves, and allowing them into the game. Sleep has GOT to go in Gen 5. Either that, or, as Sleep is allowed, we may as well allow OHKO moves back into the Metagame, because they're basically inferior sleeps.

Darkrai: I suggest to abstain until the whole sleep moves discussion is over. Darkai probobly isn't broken without sleep, and, I have found a 100% counter to it as well. [Protect + Status Orb + Guts Roopushin. OHKO's Darkai with Mach Punch. Protects to get the orb active.]

Skymin: The most broken pokemon out there right now, barring Darkai, who may be getting Dark Void banned. What can be said about Skymin that hasn't already? Your best bet to stop it is Nattorei, as he has a x4 Resistance to Seed Flare, meaning even with -2 drops, he'll take the hits. However, Air Slash is neutral, and Gyro Ball still fails to OHKO. Skymin turns everything into a luck game, like Jirachi. However, Skymin is fast and strong enough to be almost unstoppable, unlike Jirachi, who often cannot mucle past those who resist it's STABS.

Deoxys - A: Fast enough to outrun any non-scarfers, and has ExtremeSpeed anyway. Strong enough to 2HKO the whole metagame, and with a wide enough movepool to hit cause the words 'It's Super Effective!' to come up so often Elecivire is envious. It also has just enough bulk to handle a resisted Mach Punch, by far the most common priority out there. Then blows whatever attacked it away. D-A very rarely dosen't get at least one KO in a game, and whenever it comes in, you're going to lose something.

D-N is not listed, because he's currently overshadowed, and I cannot make a reasoned judgement due to this.

Doryuzzu: To be honest, I almost never lose to the mole, unless my foe outplayed me. It has several hard stops, such as Choice Band Azumarill, and Guts Roopushin. But that's what makes Dory broken. You NEED to dedicate a slot to something with a priority move strong enough to take Dory down, otherwise, you WILL be swept, unless you're running a Gliscor. Baloon is what probobly pushes Dory over the line, as it turns a rather large pool of checks, or at least pokemon it cannot switch in on, to a handful.

Drizzle: It was broken in Generation 4 on a Level 1 Kyogre. I know that dosen't hold any water in Gen 5. [Sorry for the pun] However, have any external factors changed to cause this to be otherwise? Sand is more powerful, yes, but all the sand starters are in danger when they switch in on Water-types, particually Hippowdon. On top of this, Rain got more abusers. Swift Swim Tsunbear gives an extra STAB, to deal with the Grass-type Sun Abusers. Hydration Manaphy is insane. Most water types got Boil Over to cripple any physical attackers. Kingdra is as absurd as ever.

Rain has only got stronger in Generation 5, and Drizzle has got to go.

Drought: Remember what I said for Drizzle? Well, take the magnification power up to eleven. Sun got so much better in Gen 5, it's not even that funny. Solar Power Charizard. Cholrophill Venausaur, amoung others. Whereas in the past, about the most threatening thing Sun had was Eggy.

Drought may not be broken, but I feel it warrents a Suspect Test still.

And, finally, one thing no-one seems to have mentioned:

Nattorei: Yes, a Defensive Suspect in Generation 5! What are you on Rai!

Well, stop and think for a moment. Nattorei, firstly, has a superb typing. It only has two weaknesses, and a massive number of resistances/immunities, 11 of them, in fact.

Then, take note of it's fantastic defenses to back those resistances up. 74/131/116. A Nattorei can easily run Max HP, Max Sp.Def, and a Impish Nature, to top 300 in both defesive stats, making it a mixed wall which can rival Lugia [Due to those resistances].

Then, there's it's ability. Taking a large shred of damage every thing you hit Nattorei with a physical move is really going to add up quickly with passive damage, such as Life Orb, Hazards, and Leech Seed.

Nattorei is also no slouch in hitting back. Base 94 attack, while not anything to write home about, is more than enough with the Base 120 Power Whip, and Gyro Balls coming from Base 20 Speed. That attack stat is also only just under the likes of Gliscor.

Then, there's the support. Stealth Rock. Spikes. To top it all off, however, it Leech Seed. Combined with the small amounts of damage Nattorei takes, it can recover a significant amount with Leech Seed and Leftovers. While setting up hazards, and forceing switches. With Leech Seed, Nattorei makes up somewhat for it's lack of recovery, and can outstall most walls, especially Chansey and Blissey. Throw in immunity to Toxic, and you have something a Stall team actually cannot defeat easily at all.

To see the massive effect on the metagame Nattorei has had, just think. How often are you seeing special attackers now randomly carrying HP Fire? Fire Fang Garchomps? All because of Nattorei. Even then, I find Nattorei able to survive the weaker random fire attacks thrown at it [Due to my Sp.Def investment]

So, yes, I'm shocked Nattorei hasn't been mentioned yet. I feel it's a defensive suspect, considering the fact half the things in the metagame are now seeming to randomly run fire type attacks just for Nattorei.

 

[panamaxis]

Hi, panamaxis and spacial drift is me. I'll post nominations later.

 

[Twigvest]

I managed to dabble in quite a few games under a couple of aliases. I feel most things that need to be nominated have already been nominated, but I do wish to propose a simplification to the weather banning problem. It was suggested by IcyMan28 a few posts ago and I wish to elaborate. Anyway here is my one and only nomination:

Weather Induction

Thought process:

• There are now non-Uber inducers of every type of weather.
• With the exception of Hail, all the weather types have the ability to double to speed of certain Pokemon (e.g. Dory, Kingdra, Venesaur, etc.)
• This adds specific focus in battles where two weather teams meet and clash, in that the survival of the inducer becomes critical, and K.O.ing the opposing inducer gives you a huge advantage.
  
  • I have experienced this personally when I took out an opponent's Politoed, set up SS with my TTar and later swept up with Dory.
• If we start banning weather inducing abilities we must be consistent. This is not 4th Gen any more where everyone is accustomed to a meta-game that copes rather well in Sand. We must either allow all weather into the meta-game, allowing it to change as it will; or ban all weather inducing abilities.

Thanks for reading

 

[RWB]

I didn't reach the qualification to vote, as I mostly played on Pokemon Online- the time when I play seems to coincide with the time the Smogon server is rather inactive.

But I have some nominations:


Darkrai- Incredibly powerful, new sleep system, fast, can set up and sweep with ease, espescially with some support- Encore Wobbs stand out.

One case that is not allowed for nomination due to the rules but that I'd say needs to be looked into.

Hide

Shadow Tag Shandera- This thing is crazy- the scarfed version can come in on most things and down them with it's massive special attacks, and the only real ways to beat it is to Pursuit(and that's not a real check) it as your opponent switches it out afterwards, or to carry shed shell. The only reason this thing isn't as prevalent as one would've thought is the weather- Doryuuzu hits it for the OHKO and outspeeds it, Venusaur earthquakes it to death in the sun, and Kingdra does the same for Water. And as Drizzle and Drought seem to be going away soon, and Doryuuzu seems to be joining them... This thing will be devastating.
I'm not of the opinion that Shadow Tag itself is broken- Wobbs is not nearly as unmanageable due to the encore nerf, and Shadow Tag Gothiruselle is nowhere near being broken.

Drizzle- Manaphy is the main villain here, but Specs Kingdra or even DD Kingdra are both massively powerful, and Omastar with a single Shell Smash is absurdly powerful... I believe someone calculated it to be able to OHKO basically anything with Hydro Pump- though it is very susceptible to priority.

Drought- Not as obscene as Drizzle, but quite a few mons, espescially Venusaur is incredible with it. Lightningfast Sleep, +2 to both attacking stats in a single turn and the ability to hit hard on both sides to begin with. Absorbing toxic spikes....

Doryuuzu- I can't say Sand is banworthy in itself- even if I personally don't like the sand-domination gen IV had. But Dory's ability to outspeed, setup and destroy- espescially if carrying balloon or chople berry, is staggering.

Skymin- I'm with the people who say it is destructive- with the high flinch chance, playing against a scarfed Skymin is game of pure luck, and Sub Skymin is incredibly powerful with support.

I also agree with the nomination of Nattorei as a defensive suspect.

 

[Hirako Shinji]

I will not nominate Doryuuzu like everyone did. Instead, i will nominate Sand Throw. Mold Breaker Doryuuzu isnt near broken as Sand Throw ones. Without the blistering speed its just easily revenge killed by Fire or Fight moves from pokemons with more then 88 base speed, wich is almost everything. Yeah, it still has a monstruous attack and Swords Dance, but with half the speed it would has its really more managable. It also doesnt learns Rock Polish nor Priority Moves to sweep without the speed. Banning Sand Throw instead of Doryuuzu will also stop Sandslash, who would take Doryuuzu's place right after it gets banned, with almost the same power after Earth Plate to boost Earthquake and Stone Edge replacing Rock Slide.

I will not nominate others things now, but please stop nominating Doryuuzu if you can simply nomitate what make it broken.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Sand throw on Sandslash isn't broken, though- Sandslash is slower and notiveably weaker with far less favorable typing. But I suppose banning sand throw works as well.

But then we open up the can of Chlorophyll and Swift Swim. :P

Sadly, I don't get a vote but if I did...

Ban Sand Throw. If it is broken on Doryuzu, it is just as equally if not more broken on Sandslash who does not die in one hit to most Mach Punches, Aqua Jets, etc. Sandslash also has the same movepool as Doryuzu pretty much except has a much more powerful Stone Edge over Rock Slide. It does not need to run Balloon to avoid Earthquakes, most which won't 1-2 hit ko and Life Orb Sandslash is stronger than Balloon Doryuzu (who is much easier to take hits from than Life Orb Doryuzu although it won't like Earthquakes anymore although those would mainly be from mirror and Ditto). If Latios, Shaymin-S, Darkrai (which they most assuredly are it looks like, although maybe Latios), etc go, in sand the only things outrunning are Choice Scarf Latias (and/or Latios if it squeezes by) and Choice Scarf Genie birds who need to run Grass Knot to beat it (or Bor Tail Wind which also helps against Doryuzu before it comes out but how many run Tornelos?)

And Swift Swim is even more broken just by sheer number of abusers. Either Drizzle or Swift Swim must go since together is ridiculous now because if one Doryuzu was bad, so are 3+ of them who get double stab moves and aren't nearly as weak to priority. The only thing holding Rain back in OU is Nattorei (and other weather changers, but none of them can remotely switch in safely except maybe Abomasnow) and having only one pokemon hold it back causes a lot of pressure since if he goes, it will be really tough to win. Before, you just had to hold out 5-8 turns, which while would be difficult sometimes (although much easier with Mr. Tree now if it was needed to do that), but now it is infinite so unless you carry your own weather changer move (and it's overcentralizing to force Pokes to carry random weather moves that won't usually benefit and still, there is a matter of survivng) and poke, it is gone. However, none of the auto weather changers can usually switch in on another (except Hail again of course on water).

Still Nattorei gets blasted by Life Orb Focus Blast Ludicolo for 2 hit ko as well as Abomasnow. Ludicolo has a 4x resist to water and neutrality to grass/ice, carries Swift Swim and has a boosted up stab Giga Drain now. Nattorei well have trouble with that and without a boost, Power Whip only 2 hit koes while Ludicolo is faster. And even if Nattorei survives (from Focus Blast miss while both Power Whips hit), Nattorei has less than half and Specs Kingdra or Kabutops Dancer can come in and Hydro Pump/Low Kick you into oblivion and then without Nattorei, you're going to be pummeled.

And if Rain goes, Sun will be too powerful since it also has some abusers but it's weather user is bad in comparison to rains. Chlorphyll +2 Venasaur, Solar Flare Charizard, Super Speed Mebjuka, Sun boosted Hidiharuma Flare Blitz etc are no laughing matters either, and might be worse since you don't have a prayer without a fire absorber although Heatran will die to Mebjuka Jump Kick/Nature (or was it secret?) Power. You can't really switch in Tyranitar or Hippowdon on like Venasaur or the deer and things like that.

So it is either ban the weather abilities or the weather abuser abilities (although in the case of sun, you can't really ban Chlorophll and the like, you'll have to ban the auto weather as Sun boosted Flare Blitz and Growth boosts and Solar Power Charizard is still ridiculous).

Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Latios, Deoxys (all), Inconsistent, Drizzle/Swift Swim, Drought, and Sand Throw should all go.

 

[domeface]

I must say, I do not think Drizzle is broken at all, for a number of reasons. Tyranitar and Hippowdon are both excellent pokémon in their own right, much moreso than Politoed. TTar in particular can be found on almost any style of team (bar Rain, Hail and Sun teams for obvious reasons) as his excellent stats and movepool allow him to perform numerous different roles, plus he supplies the support to make Doryuuzu very dangerous (Plus making Garchomp harder to counter and giving decent buffs to various other pokémon). What this means is that TTar is used a lot. And because he's used a lot, when using a Rain team, very often you'll be faced with a TTar to deal with before you can safely Drizzle away. From my personal experience, I'd estimate that I saw TTar or Hippowdon somewhere between 30% and 50% of teams. Also, this effect is increased by the fact that sandstorm has two auto-inducers, meaning dedicated sandstorm teams can run both, making it even harder to get Rain set up. Also, in addition to sandstorm, you've got Hail and especially Sun to worry about, since it weakens all your Water-types' STAB attacks.
Furthermore, most Swift Swim pokémon, while hugely powerful in Rain, are rather mediocre outside of it. Kabutops, Ludicolo, Floatzel (who by the way is actually totally underrated) and Gorebyss, for example, are very mediocre when the rain stops. The only notable exception is Kingdra, as he can make up for the lack of a speed boost by using Dragon Dance.
Also, once Rain is set up, it's not impossible to beat; yes, if you allow a ChestoRest Kingdra to set up to +3 or something, then you're screwed; but really, that would probably happen without Rain anyway, and if you let a Kingdra set up to +3, you're really not a very good player. Kabutops is hard-countered by Nattorei, who he fails to 2HKO with any of his moves at +2, and who OHKOs him in return with Power Whip; Ludicolo, without a decent boosting move outside of Swords Dance which only boosts his mediocre Attack, is also easily countered, even in Rain. Floatzel, while being an excellent revenge killer and good for picking off weakened opponents, just doesn't have the raw power to sweep through teams. The only really dangerous Rain sweepers are Kingdra, who can be dealt with if he's prevented from setting up properly, and Manaphy, who personally I'd say is broken, and if it's Manaphy or Rain that has to be banned, I say Manaphy, for various reasons (status immunity, tail glow, bulk and speed, decent coverage moves, etc).

I may come up with actual nominations later, but for now, I'm of the opinion that if the combination of Manaphy + Drizzle is found to be broken (which I'm fairly sure it will be), Manaphy is the problem, not Drizzle.

EDIT: I would like to clarify that I don't think Sandstorm is broken either; the advantages I mentioned only justify its use, making Rain weaker due to being harder to set up. Since Doryuuzu and Sandslash are the only real abusers, and they work in very similar ways (as opposed to say, Kingdra and Manaphy), Sandstorm can never really be powerful enough to be 'broken', IMO.

 

[Darkon]

I just got 1300 in ranking :/

But i wanna you guys take more attention to Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Lati@s, Deoxys (all), Inconsistent, Wobbuffet, Garchomp, Genosekuto, Drizzle + Swift Swim, Drought, and Sand Throw, all of these can centralize the metagame so easy.

 

[JSND]

Sand Throw
On sandslash Sand throw doesnt scream crazily like what happen in dory from my view. Dory is a lot lot more broken. Sandslash might be bulky and have some move but surf kill him even easier than dory. For starter, Dory reshape the speed tier all by himself, have 135 base attack and his typing make him a good bait which prove crucial in many situation and making him a great revenge killer.

Sandslash is slower, outsped by Deoxys-S cleaner set and scarfed easily on top of having low attack making burungeru able to check it easier. To compare, while slash uses LO intead of balloon, 100 attack is weak, without LO and unboosted even Blissey can wall it. 100 attack is hardly enough to sweep. While hes bulky, without power to break through it doesnt nearly as influental as dory, which exactly mirror flygon garchomp argument(although not AS unbalanced as that).

Homever, if PAIRED with dory ? its a lot different. They both still lose to weezing but Slash is great for giving dory way to sweep, more of an early game sweeper to punch hole for the latter to sweep. Slash no weak to most priority is nice to have but the power loss (outside stone edge) IS noticeable. Other abuser muurando
also isnt broken due to lack of STAB on the most centralizing move in all 5 generation.Yes Sand Throw deserve a checking but...
In conclusion the one broken is

Dory
Many seems to say dory outside sand is useless. Not really. Its because of weather wars. In no weather, Dory downright one on one Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo and come out on top. But this prove hard in meta filled with ever changing weather. Well Rain abuser do have saving grace such as kabutops priority, Kingdra hoomever lose a lot seeing 85 base is manageable. Ludi is quite bulky though. But should be noted that no weather is hard to come by as of now. The main argument of dory is the fact that in sand you only have 2 or maybe 3(with terrakion) really good sweeper that abuses SS making them having lesser variation. This make SS more of an Asset rather than playstyle

Homever its should be noted that EVEN with all this, Sand is still on par with rain due to the strainght ridiculous power of dory. Therefore it deserve to be retest again due to how ridiculous its affecting the meta.
It might be currently the single most influental pokemon in the metagame. Think Deo-A is safe ? not anymore. Mixape is fast and fragile ? he has hundred more speed. 120 Scarf is good revenge killer ? not anymore.

When dory is banned or Sand throw or whatever its is, robushin wil not as popular as it is now seeing now when you dont use rain you MUST pack dory counter, and roob is your best bet at checking and the most useful among all choice. The same happen for others but Dory is the one who goes over the top. Unless your kyogre, never before you want to scarf your own toed. See what happen now and you see how he influence the metagame.

 

[ensoriki]

Did not make the requirement nominating

Swift Swim - For a change of pace from drizzle discussion I feel the alternative should be considered, even if for a moment. Unless you feel rain stall is overpowered as well, then for variety's sake and to simply of considered any alternatives, Swift swim should be nominated. It's quite clear that even if you banned any individual swift swimmer for drizzle abuse, another would take it's place. In that regard banning drizzle is an easy solution. If Swift swim is removed from OU, Rain offense in comparison to what it is now, is essentially destroyed, and without drizzle rain stall is essentially destroyed.
- Is swift swim broken outside of drizzle? Many say no?
- Is rain stall broken with drizzle? Many say no.
So if you ban swift swim, your left mostly with rain stall, if you ban drizzle your left with RD rain offense.
If both options are equally valid it's entirely up to the voters.

Rain may quite well be broken. Nattorei is said to be the main counter, but kabutops and floatzel can ohko him if he attempts to switch in after they're boosted. Nattorei can essentially be powered through until he breaks and after he breaks rain just continues to be a wrecking ball.
If rain is broken, why it's broken should be looked at, drizzle is already a common nomination and simply to consider and check any alternatives, I nominate swift swim.

 

[panamaxis]

Skymin: Outspeeds pretty much the whole metagame, 80% Chance to drop Special Defense 2 stages on a 120 Base Power STAB in conjunction with a 60% chance to flinch with its other STAB makes outspeeding it the only feasible option and with 127 base speed...good luck. A simple set of Substitute, Leech Seed, Air Slash, Seed Flare pretty much destroys the whole metagame bar a select few checks such as Crobat and Scarfed Steel Types

Darkrai: Perfect coverage bar Toxicroak and Heracross couple with insane speed, special attack not to mention access to Nasty Plot and Dark Void (especially with the new sleep mechanics) push Darkrai over the top. With sleep being comparable to a free kill and giving Darkrai the opportunity to set up a substitute or Nasty Plot, Darkrai is pretty much guaranteed to cause significant problems for the other team.

Deoxys-A: Has the ability to outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO pretty much the whole metagame without any form of set up, this is a no brainer really. With access to Extremespeed even priority revenging isn't a sure bet.

 

[JSND]

Sand Throw argument
First off i think it deserve test not just fory but lets see thhis first

Before everybody deceived by Sandslash, it should be noted that Sandslash while not mach punch weak is not alot more bulky than Doryuzuu. This and elemental type and
stats comparison might make sandslash not as broken as dory
Example
Wish passing gen 4 vappy vs Doryuuzu with full ofensive investment
88% - 103.6%
Sandslash
122.3- 145 %
With the same investment in the sand, They have
Dory
369 attack 604 speed
Sandslash
299(388 with LO) attack and 502 speed
and seeing most say adamant are good
328(426 with LO) attack and 458 speed

Seeing this Sanslash is slower and able to be defeated by many scarfer. 100 attack with LO seems promising but with the ease of putting spikes, it become worse in long term.

Also consider sandslash is ousped by scarfed base 100, it get worse (adamant. Jolly is outspeed by base 105 upward). What make dory good isnt only late game cleaning. Its his ability to threaten during whole match by revenge killing too which some fear his revenge killing (scarf latios). Also heres some more calculation

Uninvested Relaxed Tangrowth Power Whip vs Doryuzuu
To show how natts power whip does its a bit weaker
53.8% - 63.8 %
Sandslash
81.1% - 96.9% (near guaranteed OHKO with 1 layer spikes + rocks. Guaranteed with LO)

Scizor banded Bullet Punch (OU variants)
Doryuzuu
33.8 % - 39.9 %
Sandslash
50.9% - 60.1% (2HKO justified he isnt OHKO by superpower which does 68% - 80.4%)

And finally the most important calcs
Roobushin mach punch
24.3% - 28.8%
against dory
63.6% - 77.6%
In situational term, dory doesnt hit by entry hazard cept SR (3.25 %) with baloon and dory has better special bulk in about 30 % while having 12 % lower physical bulk. Example against roob, they both lose 1 on 1 due to drain punch. or in sandslash case with 1 layer of spikes and if roob is revenging(which means slash has 90 % HP), they have a tie

Thsi means dory and sandslash has one quality in other. Dory is more specially bulky, whilee slash is physically. They have not much different attacking power when slash have LO(which means good luck if your facing deoxys D knocking LO from sandslash before you attained SD) and dory's destroying speed tier while sandslash is not. Homever if were doing the gen 4 Salamence latias situation argument, its clear that sandslash might make dory more threatening vice versa. it should be noted that dory can avoid toxic which make LO slash suffer many residual damage. But otherwise they have both selling point for their side. (oh dont forget sandslash is also nearly useless outside sand due to his speed.)
This calcs and factor make me think sand throw is broken but dory might be the one's broken. Also note that DW slash isnt released yet.

Shadow Tag
This might be promising on dera but before you scared, shanderaa can be a suicide if you used it wrong while wobb is a free turn machine. Powerful attacker dont make wobb bad seeing he has experienced 150 base stats abuse last gen and still ridiculously good. Also his ability to get rid of politoed and ninetales is something to behold

 

[crobats]

I didn't manage the requirement but i will chip in for some of my own nominations.

Shaymin-S
This pokemon has monster speed and special attack along with nice handy ability and good enough movepool. The fact that it can just air slash through some of it's counters along with stall out with leech seed makes it a tough and hardy opponent. It can often get the Special Defence drop with Seed Flare at the most inopportune times for the opponent really adds on top how hard this pokemon is to deal with. It's bulk while not excellent isn't terrible and it can take a hit unlike deoxys-a. The choice scarf set is amazingly fast and handles many pokemon easily in this metagame. Overall Shaymin-S is fast, powerful and hard to handle and deserves a ban.

Inconsistent
This ability is quite amazing and takes no real skill to use successfully. As long as you can understand the concept of substitute + protect and not play like you're trying to lose you often can get 6-0s even with pokemon such like bidoof. The fact that it gets evasion boosts is what really pushes it over the edge. You are basically forced to be really lucky to hit, or use perish song/haze/clear smog. It is almost entirely luck-based and overall in time the ability gives out more positives boosts. I have been 6-0ed before by this strategy and due to the high luck no skill factor, hard to beat without specific moves it should be banned.

Deoxys-A/N
Both these Deoxys have quite the offensive stats and while Deoxys-a is quite lacking defensively, he is quite a monster with high speed and high stats in both offenses. He has a Great offesive movepool and can do much damage with it. With extreemspeed it can also beat some pokemon trying to use priority to defeat it. If used correctly this can cause great damage to a team and this is why I believe it deserves a ban. Deoxys-n is basically nearly the same as deoxys-a just slightly less powerful with slightly better defenses and should be banned as well.

Darkrai
With the new sleep mechanics that basically put a pokemon out of commission for the rest of the match, it makes darkrai a much dangerous threat. Once it has slept a pokemon, it can often nasty plot to increase it's already great special attack and sweep with almost as good as shaymin-s speeds. Also while weak to mach punch it doesn't have horrendous defensive stats and can take some hits. It has quite good coverage with focus blast and dark pulse hitting almost everything for neutral damage and nasty plot boosting the power of both moves, Darkrai deserves a ban.

 

[BlueEyesWhiteNite]

I didn't make the cut but I thought that I should at least say what I think even though it may not matter...:(

Lugia: I think that Lugia should be moved down from Ubers this Gen, because he could help stall out some and destroy pokes like Skymin, But still be kept in line by T-tar and Darkrai. With such an offensive metagame we need sturdier walls, and even though they may be sturdy they may not last too long. For example a choice specs Timid kingdra in the Rain with hydro pump does 58.4% - 68.8% to a Standard pressure Lugia. So basically Kingdra can 2 Hit KO it and roost's added effect won't even help it making Lugia no match for kingdra. (Most Lugia will probably run pressure instead of multiscale because stealth rocks already cancels it.) Not to mention that Darkrai and t-tar can also both kill it no problem. I also doubt that Lugia could stand up to a Shell break cloyster's Icicle Spear. Also Lugia doesn't appriciate being Badly Poisoned because if it stays out there too long it may die. So yeah Lugia will be very sturdy but Not impossible to take out.

Manaphy: I think that manaphy should be moved back to Ubers because not only can it take hits, but in the rain it can fully heal itself of status and damage and can sweep after just one Tail Glow. It's Almost Impossible to stop.

Kingdra: I say Ban this one only if it makes you feel any better. I really wouldn't care if it was banned or not because I carry ditto on my team who can turn into it, be faster with it's choice scarf, and kill it with it's own Dragon Pulse. But I do have to admit that It is very hard to counter at times.

Weather Inducers: I Say do not ban them, because just like last Gen when Stealth Rock became essential for just about every battle, so will weather this Gen. Now I'm not saying that you have to have a pokemon with a weather inducing ability on every team, but maybe one pokemon with at least a weather move, like maybe something with mischevious heart or I've even heard Ludicolo with hail, or something like that.

Skymin: I think that this should stay in OU if Lugia is brought down because Skymin is easily countered by him. Now I'm not saying that Lugia will be the only counter but he will be one of the more common counters.

Darkrai: I Say keep it in OU if Lugia is brought Down because Darkrai will help keep Lugia in Line along with other counters so he doesn't become a monster like manaphy did. Not that Taking Darkrai out of OU would make Lugia a monster but It would mean one less counter for Lugia.

Inconsistant: Normally I would be against banning an ability but this ability is too random making impossible to counter 99.9% of the time. Plus using Pure Luck to win a battle is not in the spirit pokemon battling at all. So I say Ban this Now.


P.S. If you were wondering why my account is so new, it's because my old one wouldn't work. For some reason it wouldn't Let me Post or anything so I made a new one.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Inconsistent - Inconsistent is a tactic that operates primarily on mindlessness. This tactic is detrimental to two core aspects of Pokemon: risk management and strategic thinking. The premise behind it is simple: use Protect if the opposing Pokemon can outspeed and KO you; use Substitute if it can't. Repeat until enough boosts have been accrued, abusing consecutive Protects' flat 50% success rate (changed from Generation 4) and switching out if absolutely necessary. Reliable counters to this tactic include Perish Song. Unreliable counters include phazing (foiled by Evasion boosts); Haze (ineffective because it still gains boosts after the Haze turn, so unless the Inconsistent user gains useless boosts turn-after-turn, the Hazer will have to repeatedly Haze as it attacks); Toxic Spikes (most Inconsistent users can switch in on common Toxic Spikers, such as Tentacruel); and attempting to KO the Inconsistent user through direct attacks (foiled by Defense/Special Defense/Evasion boosts or Speed + Special Attack/Attack boosts) or indirect attacks (foiled by Speed boosts + Substitute).

That being said, the risk entailed is highly disproportional to the potential reward; thus, because it is so simple to use, and because it has such a huge payoff, it heavily waters down the skill of those with good risk management: anyone with even barely a grasp on the rudiments of risk management can abuse the risk properties of Inconsistent and win matches. And because abusing Inconsistent is based almost solely on risk management, therefore relying less on strategy, its success is also detrimental to strategic thinking. Note that while some level of strategy may be necessary to set up an Inconsistent sweep, the execution, the crux of Inconsistent abuse, is almost purely "luck"-based.

So in essence, because Inconsistent is a strategy that does not reward good play from either a strategic or risk management perspective, it should be banned.

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak - These abilities are effectively passive Evasion boosts; hence, as they operate under the same principles as Minimize and Double Team, they should be banned under Evasion Clause.

Deoxys-A/N - Deoxys-A/N is near unwallable thanks to its astounding coverage and power: STAB Psycho Boost + Superpower destroys almost all the tier, and Deoxys has room in its moveset to cover anything it doesn't (Shadow Ball for Psychic-types, Hidden Power Fire for Steel-types neutral to Superpower). Furthermore, its Speed and access to priority Extremespeed make it near impossible to outpace, if getting something in on Deoxys was not enough of a task. These characteristics limit the pool of viable Deoxys switch-ins to bulky Scarfed/priority Pokemon who can come in on a resisted hit; Pokemon that meet this requirement include Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Latias, and Scizor, who still take massive damage from even resisted or neutral hits. The difficulty entailed in safely switching into Deoxys and eliminating it makes it far too powerful for OU.

Drizzle - Drizzle possesses two attributes that make it inherently better than Rain Dance + Damp Rock: its permanence (lasts forever in the absence of any conflicting weather) and method of activation (through a switch instead of use of a move). The reason why Rain Dance is not broken and why Drizzle is can be attributed to these traits. The activation of rain through Rain Dance could be stopped through aggressive play and/or Taunt or other disabling moves; additionally, the fact that it took a turn to set up could be abused through set up (i.e. Substitute). Now, it is impossible to stop the set up of rain except through other weather changers, all of which are poor switch-ins to Politoed and most rain sweepers, and are revealed to the rain user via team preview. The second advantage of Drizzle is permanence, which prevents rain from being outstalled through smart switching, eliminates the need for rain teams to use more than one Pokemon dedicated to the set up of rain, and removes the huge momentum stopper that was the need to reset the rain every time it stopped (the problems of which are noted in the segment about rain activation).

Ignoring the boons it has over Rain Dance, Drizzle is broken because it overpowers several Pokemon, including Manaphy, Ludicolo, Kingdra, and Kabutops. The so-called catch-all to rain, Nattorei, is really only a solid counter to Kingdra and Manaphy, the latter of whom can potentially abuse Hydration + Rest to take advantage of Power Whip's imperfect accuracy and outstall its PP. Kabutops deals heavy damage to Nattorei with a +2 Low Kick, while Ludicolo is immune to Leech Seed, neutral to Power Whip, and can 2HKO Nattorei with Focus Blast. Nattorei's survival is irrelevant when another sweeper can just come in and finish the job. Outside of Nattorei, all four of these Pokemon have astounding coverage which, combined with the speed boost afforded by rain (in Manaphy's case, the status immunity + instant full HP recovery) as well as the pseudo-STAB to Water-type moves, makes them extremely hard to handle.

Darkrai - Darkrai's high Speed and access to Dark Void are near guaranteed to give it a free turn. Its high Special Attack and excellent coverage make it very difficult for status absorbers to switch into it; for instance, Gliscor is OHKOed by Ice Beam and takes heavy damage from Dark Pulse, while Lum Berry Scizor can only safely beat it one on one (i.e. lead match-up or double switch), as Darkrai can just Dark Void again after the berry is consumed. Even after Darkrai puts something to sleep, its pool of counters remains fairly limited. Nasty Plot makes Darkrai extremely difficult to wall, so in most cases, checking it requires the use of a faster Pokemon or priority. Take into account the fact that very few Pokemon are naturally faster than Darkrai, who sports a base Speed of 125, and the fact that the Pokemon must also be able to KO Darkrai before being KOed by (a boosted) Dark Pulse or Focus Blast, and it is apparent that there are very few checks to Darkrai, not even taking into account that some of these checks are not as effective against Substitute variants, which are designed to be able to scout frailer switch-ins and safely hit them with the appropriate coverage move. Overall, these attributes make Darkrai too much to handle in OU.

Shaymin-S - To me, Shaymin-S's most threatening set is its SubSeed set. The combination of its resistances, immunities, and bulk in addition to its ability to force switches through threat of its power and coverage more often than not let it gain a free turn to set up a Substitute. Shaymin-S can then proceed to Leech Seed the switch-in, and its blistering Speed makes it impossible for slower Pokemon (without priority) to force out Shaymin-S without losing a bunch of health to SubSeeding in the process. Air Slash further accentuates Shaymin-S's SubSeeding abilities, preventing most Grass-types, immune to Leech Seed, from switching in; furthermore, its high flinch rate (when combined with Serene Grace) usually lets Shaymin-S regain enough health to sustain its Substitutes should it have seeded a Pokemon with low HP or harmful weather be active. Despite Leech Seed being Shaymin-S's most effective strategy, its ability to run LO, Scarf, and Sub + 3 attack sets also prevent Pokemon such as Nattorei, Scizor, and Scarf Heatran and Jirachi from being foolproof checks, all three taking heavy damage from either Hidden Power Fire or Earth Power.

 

[Delta 2777]

Nominations

Shaymin-S: Shaymin-S has the capability to outspeed over 90% of the Pokemon in the metagame that lack a Choice Scarf of their own to abuse its 120 base SpAtk. This alone doesn't make it broken though, but rather the 60% flinch rate associated with Air Slash in combination with this Shaymin-S's great speed. If this weren't enough, Shaymin also has access to Seed Flare, a 120 BP STAB Grass-type move that sharply lowers the opponent's SpDef 80% of the time. This makes would-be counters, such as Skarmory, Nattorei, and Blissey into shakey checks at best. Even if Shaymin-S weren't "broken" (which I believe it is), it makes the game far too RNG-oriented, which is the same reason we established Evasion and OHKO clause (Shaymin-S is different from Togekiss and Jirachi due to his much higher speed stat).

Darkrai: The second fastest Pokemon with a sleep-inducing move in the game is also the Pokemon with the second-most reliable sleep-inducing move in the game. Access to Dark Void allows Darkrai to use his nearly perfect attacking combination of Focus Blast and [STAB] Dark Pulse very effectively, especially when boosted by Nasty Plot. Consider it a faster, more powerful Gengar with better defenses and access to a reliable sleeping move as well as Nasty Plot (but with Dark-typing and Levitate). Access to a reliable, fast sleep is enough to make Darkrai broken anyway in my eyes, due to sleep's new mechanics this generation.

Deoxys-A & Deoxys-N: Deoxys and Deoxys-A are both simply Alakazam on steroids. LO Psycho Boost OHKOs tons of stuff that is often assumed capable of taking a hit, such as max HP Swampert. Access to piority, as well as the BoltBeam combination and Superpower to hit Blissey and Tyranitar make Deoxys-A and Deoxys-N versatile threats that are going to inflict major damage to your team if you mispredict against them (and its easier to predict with Deoxys than against it, since you're hurting something either way). Deoxys-N may seem inferior to Deoxys-A, but his attacking stats are still superb (the best in Standard, besides Doexys-A's), while posessing the bulk to take weaker priority attacks (Roobushin/Breloom's Mach Punch, Lucario's Extremespeed, etc).

Inconsistent: I'm nominating this simply because it is uncompetative. Inconsistent users can simply stall with the combination of Substitute + Protect until they get the sharp boosts that they need (usually Evasion), and then sweep your team. Sure, this may not work all the time (say 1 every 3 attempts), but even so, 33% of battles being decided by pure luck is way too much for my tastes, even if this is Pokemon.