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OU Team Building

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Nova, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    What to use

    [​IMG]

    Celebi @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Giga Drain
    - Psychic / Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Hidden Power [Fire] / Earth Power

    Role: Special Sweeper

    What It Does: Now that Tornadus-T got banned, this set is even better than before. Now that Tornadus-T is banned, and not all Rain teams are going to use Tornadus, this set is a terror to rain teams, although it can also be good against other types of teams, such as Sun (when the sun is not shining, of course). This set takes advantage of the fact that the most common set to Celebi is Specially Defensive. Thus, many times, it can force Sheer Force (pun not inteded) Landorus, and Keldeo, out, and take advantage of this to setup a NP boost. Although Celebi is not that speedy, it has many advantages over other sweepers like RP Landorus. The first is that it has many good resistances to Fighting, Water, Ground, and Electric. The second is that Celebi is not weak to Stealth Rock. Also, should Celebi be statused, it can simply switch out to cure itself. Also, Celebi is weak to Ice Shard, although Mamoswine can never OHKO Celebi at full health, and will be OHKOed by Giga Drain in return. Celebi can also take Bullet Punch incredibly well, and resist Mach Punch and Aqua Jet althogether.

    Nasty Plot boosts Celebi's Special Attack to incredible levels. The main sweeping move is Giga Drain. Although Grass isn't the best STAB to use offensively, as it is resisted by many types, it also hits Water- and Ground-types super-effectively. Plus, Giga Drain can heal Celebi, mitigating the Life Orb recoil.

    The third slot goes to a move that Celebi will use against Dragon-types. Psychic is the recommended one, as it also receives STAB, and will have good neutral coverage against things that resist Giga Drain. Also, Psychic hits Fighting- and Poison-types super-effectively, and this is very important against teams that need a powerful weapon against Fighting-types. After a boost, Psychic is also able to OHKO most Dragon-types. Hidden Power Ice can be used instead. This is because Psychic needs a boost to be able to OHKO Dragon-types reliably, and Hidden Power Ice can do this without a boost. Also, Hidden Power Ice hits three Dragon-types that resist Psychic: Lati@s and Hydreigon. It also hits Landorus without having to resort to Psychic, as Sheer Force Landorus cannot OHKO this Celebi, but has a chance to 2HKO with Hidden Power Ice, but Celebi can't OHKO in return without Hidden Power Ice. Finally, Hidden Power Ice has a high chance, when boosted, to OHKO 4 / 0 Dragonite through Multiscale! However, Celebi will have problems against Fighting-types, as it can't damage them quickly enough to defeat them, and many of them can OHKO in return.

    The fourth slot is dedicated to a move to use against Steel-types. Hidden Power Fire is the best one, as the only Steel-type that don't fear Fire attacks is Heatran. Hidden Power Fire can quickly defeat Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, all which are problematic if Celebi do not carry that move. However, Earth Power can be used instead. It has three advantages over Hidden Power Fire. The first is that it actually defeats Heatran. The second is that it is very useful against specially defensive Jirachi on rain, as it can take a boosted Hidden Power Fire if it's raining, paralyze Celebi, and take it out with repeated Iron Heads. The third is that it still can OHKO Scizor, but only after a Nasty Plot boost. However, Earth Power leaves Celebi helpless against any other Steel-type not weak to Ground, such as Skarmory, Bronzong, and Ferrothorn.

    If you are using Psychic, is recommended that you use Hidden Power Fire, while if you run Earth Power, is recommended that you run Hidden Power Ice.

    The EV spread maximizes Speed and Special Attack, letting Celebi tie with unboosted Volcarona, max speed Ninetales, and outspeed anything below it. If you are using Leftovers and the combination of Earth Power and Hidden Power Ice, another EV spread that can be used is 180 SpA / 84 SpD / 244 Spe. With that spread, Celebi can outspeed Modest Hydreigon, and OHKO it with a boosted Hidden Power Ice after Stealth Rock damage. With the Special Defense EVs, Celebi avoids the 2HKO from Hidden Power Ice from Sheer Force Landorus, and OHKO back with Hidden Power Ice, and this alone is reason to consider using this EV spread. Celebi can also avoid the 2HKO from non-Rain-boosted Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump or the Scarf rain-boosted Hydro Pump, setup a Nasty Plot, and then OHKO back with Giga Drain, restoring all health lost on the process.

    Generally, the recommended item is Life Orb. Leftovers can be used for a lot of reasons; it boosts Celebi's survivability a lot, especially on sandstorm teams, and guarantee that Sheer Force Landorus will have a hard time trying to 2HKO Celebi with Hidden Power Ice. However, Celebi loses out a lot of power. For example, even after a boost, Celebi can only OHKO 4/0 Dragonite after Stealth Rock damage. Also, Celebi misses out the OHKO on Hydreigon with +2 Hidden Power Ice, if Stealth Rock is not present on the field, and can never OHKO Scizor with +2 Earth Power after Stealth Rock damage. It also is not guaranteed to 2HKO physically defensive Skarmory with +2 Hidden Power Ice. For this reason, entry hazard support is more important than ever if you decide to use Leftovers.

    Good Teammates:

    Heatran resists all of Celebi's weakness and vice-versa. It can also deal better with Dragon-types and Steel-types than Celebi, thus, facilitating Celebi's work. Heatran can also deal with sun teams, which are problematic for Celebi. Celebi can then deal with the Fighting-types and sun teams that give problems to Heatran. These are reasons to why Heatran is generally the best partner to Celebi. Keldeo does a similar job to Heatran, although it doesn't have the same defensive synergy with Celebi, that Heatran has. Still, (especially on rain teams) Keldeo is an effective partner for Celebi, to facilitate its sweep. Tyranitar is another good partner, as it can take out Latios, Latias, and opposing Celebi, all of which give problems to Celebi. The latter also protects Tyranitar from rain teams. Specially Defensive Jirachi is another good partner, as it can spread paralysis to help Celebi's sweep, and can counter/check threats like Lati@s. Terrakion is another good partner. It takes the Fire-type attacks that give problems to Celebi, can wallbreak to facilitate Celebi's swep, can take out the pink blobs, and can revenge kill many things that give problems to Celebi, such as Tornadus.

    What counters it:

    Chansey and Blissey are the only foolproof counters to NP Celebi, as no matter which move Celebi runs, the pink blobs can easily sponge those moves, even when they are boosted. They are only 2HKOed by a +6 Giga Drain. Other counters to Celebi depend from which move it runs.

    Heatran laughs at every other move that Celebi can use, but Earth Power will instantly murder him. However, Heatran can avoid Earth Power with an Air Balloon; take care of this fact. Specially Defensive Jirachi does a similar job if it is raining, as it avoids a 2HKO from a +2 Hidden Power Fire, and can paralyze Celebi, and take it out with repeated Iron Heads. However, like Heatran, it must avoid Earth Power, though Earth Power will only 2HKO specially defensive Jirachi, even at +2, so with a little of luck, it can still come out on the top. If Celebi lacks Hidden Power Fire, Skarmory, Bronzong, and Ferrothorn can counter Celebi very well. Note that physically defensive variants of Skarmory will be 2HKOed by a boosted Hidden Power Ice. Scizor will also pose problems if Celebi lacks Hidden Power Fire, or if it's raining, as Celebi will need a boost to, on the former situation, OHKO Scizor with Earth Power after Stealth Rock damage, and on the latter situation, simply OHKO Scizor (without Stealth Rock).

    If Celebi lacks Hidden Power Ice, Lati@s and Hydreigon will pose problems, although even if Celebi has Hidden Power Ice, only Hydreigon can be reliably taken out, as both Lati@s can outspeed, and either avoid an OHKO, or outspeed and defeat Celebi with the apropriate move. Specially defensive versions of Dragonite are an annoyance to Celebi that lack Hidden Power Ice, as they avoid an OHKO from a boosted Psychic, and can either take Celebi down with Hurricane, or setup and OHKO with Outrage.

    Although Celebi is hard to counter, there are some checks to it. Anything that can outspeed and hit with a Bug-type move or a super-effective STAB move will easily dispose of Celebi. These include Scarf Tyranitar, Terrakion (with X-Scissor), Scarf Scizor, physical variants of Landorus, Landorus-T, Scarf Heatran, and sun/chlorophyll sweepers in general. It should be noted that all of those threats cannot switch in, as they are in risk of being OHKOed by the appropriate move. It is always wise to scout Celebi's moves before attempting to revenge kill or knowing what you can use to wall him.
  2. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,152
    Just want to double check the Gothitelle support set. There are references with a Choice Scarf claiming it outspeeds Tornadus-T. Gothitelle only outspeeds Tornadus.
  3. Kiyo

    Kiyo

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    499
    It actually outspeeds by one point 376>375
  4. mcdanger

    mcdanger

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    66
    I`m suprised no one has done tyrannitar yet

    What to use

    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Pursuit
    - Crunch
    - Stone Edge
    - Superpower/Earthquake

    Role: Support/Revenge killer

    What it does: With Tornadus therian used so much, Tyrannitar`s scarfed set was overlooked in favor of his banned set as the scarfed set lost its major selling point of being able to outspeed the OU tier and hit things with tyrannitar`s powerful crunch or stone edge. Now without tornadus, scarfed tyrannitar can be used more efficiently. Currently most pokemon that tyrannitar is used to check like, celebi and latios, have ways to handle him, celebi uses baton pass to get around pursuit, while latios`s Lo set can 2hko tyrannitar with surf and rocks. The edge scarfed tyrannitar has over its banded set is its speed, and atm the predictability of tyrannitar, making most things stay in, or like celebi baton pass. Because of this, scarfed tar does an arguably better job at removing threats as he isnt outspeed like banded tar and he can hit them with a powerful crunch. This is very useful as crunch from standard scarfed tar does around 75% to celebi, putting it in the KO range for common tyrannitar partners like keldeo and landorus i, while KOing non-bulky lati@s, 2hko with bulk. While it losses the sheer power of its banded set, scarfed tyrannitar provides better team support because it out speed and KO needed threats while banded tar needed to KO on the switch in.

    Pursuit is tyrannitar`s selling point outside of sand stream. This lets him be a reliable check to scarfed latios as well as hurt pokemon that he forces out, or that u turn/volt switch out. Pursuit is good as it allow you to hit some extra damage, or those last few hp on a pokemon.

    Crunch is the main stab here. With a choice scarf, tyrannitar reaches 367 speed, letting it out pace pokemon with a base speed up to 115. This makes him an ideal check to fast psychic pokemon like latios and starmie, as the ladder wont switch a majority of the time. With baton pass celebi on the rise, crunch lets you hit it hard and cripple its ability to wall sweepers like landorus i and keldeo. Crunch also provides a solid attack with 100 accuracy unlike stone edge.

    Stone edge is here for a heavy hitter move. Stone edge allows tyrannitar to hit threats like dragonite for super effective damage, and hit threats like landorus i and skarmory harder then crunch.

    The final move is superpower, rounding of the set for solid coverage. Superpower lets you hit heatran with an air ballon and terrakion hard on switch ins. Earthquake is another option as it lets tyrannitar him tentacruel hard, but lets the set vulnerable to air ballon heatran. Over all superpower hits mamoswine harder, as well as a more reliable answer to abomasnow, kyurem, and ferrothorn, while earthquake lets you KO tentacruel and doesnt have the stat drop that superpower brings.

    Good Teammates: Keldeo and landorus i are two of the best teammates for tyrannitar as he checks their main counters so they can sweep easily. Stoutland and sandslash both benefit from his sand stream, giving them the speed boost from sand rush. Defensively jellicent share strong syenergy with tyrannitar, walling his two main checks, keldeo and terrakion as well as criipple scizor, while tyrannitar traps celebi and can KO rival tyrannitars that try to KO jellicent. Gengar falls in the same area as jellicent, stopping fightings while tyrannitar checks scarfed latios and sp defensive heatran that wall him.

    Ways to counter it: The best way to counter tyrannitar is to use a fighting type. Keldeo is the best as it can come in on any move and take minimal damage besides superpower, which doesnt do a crippling amount. Keldeo forces him out with secret sword and surf, of course secret sword does more, but surf still hits him hard, for around 45%.

    Scizor is another answer as it can come in and threaten it with bullet punch. The banded set also threatens it with superpower and u turn, while the swords dance set threatens it with bug bite and brick break if its not running roost. Scizor has to be wary of stone edge tho. Breloom is in the same boat, but can come in on more moves, but has less defense, and threatens it with mach punch or spore.

    Skarmory and forrtress can come in and tank all his moves and threaten it with whirlwind and gyro ball respectfully.

    Like any weather inducer, tyrannitar doesnt like hazards or status conditions, especially burns as they cripple him. Defensive politoed can toxic him and stall it out, or burn it with scald. Tyrannitar has to be wary with switching into ninetales because of will o wisp, tho tales cant stay in. Hippowdon walls all his moves with his physical bulk and threatens it with earthquake.
  5. Milos

    Milos

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    438
    What to use:

    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge/ Leftovers
    Ability: Rain Dish
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP/ 236 Def/ 20 Spe

    -Scald
    -Rapid Spin
    -Toxic/Toxic Spikes
    -Protect

    Role: Rapid Spinner, Hazard User, Support

    What It Does: Tentacruel is one of the premier bulky Water-types found in OU. With above average Speed and a handful of resistances which include Fighting, Steel, Bug and immunity to Poison, it's no wonder why Tentacruel is a 'mon worth using. Tentacruel is effective in clearing the field of hazards for the rest of your team, fearing nothing from common spikers such as Forretress and Ferrothorn except for the rare Earthquake on the former and Bulldoze on the latter. With Scald, Tentacruel is often able to not only weaken physical attackers, but burn them as well. The choice between Toxic and Toxic Spikes is mostly dependent on your team; Toxic allows Tentacruel to poison switch-ins who are not affected by Toxic Spikes, notably Thunderus-Therian and Lati@s. On the other hand, Toxic Spikes can be used to wear down the opponent gradually, but is a less seen strategy with the prevalence of opposing Poison-types that will absorb the hazards upon switching in. When used in conjunction with rain support, Protect gives Tentacruel a free turn to scout and gain an additional 12.5% of its HP from Rain Dish, as well as a free turn of Leftovers recovery. It also eases prediction when facing choiced enemies. Speaking of Leftovers, the choice between that and Black Sludge is completely preferential. They both recover the same amount of HP per turn, but it should be noted that if Tentacruel is Tricked an item in exchange for Black Sludge then your opponent now possesses the ability to Trick Black Sludge onto another of your Pokemon (who will lose HP every turn if it is not a Poison-type).

    Good Teammates: Politoed is one of the best partners for Tentacruel out there. Thanks to its ability, Rain Dish, Tentacruel gains an extra 12.5% HP every turn, making Tentacruel a nightmare for your opponent to take out. Ferrothorn is also a very good partner for Tentacruel, as together, they resist nearly every attacking type. Ferrothorn resists Electric and Psychic, two of the common type of attacks directed towards Tentacruel, while in return Tentacruel can take on the Fighting attacks that are problematic for Ferrothorn. Also, Ferrothorn is able to lay both Stealth Rock and Spikes, as well as annoy opponents with Leech Seed, meaning that together they can outlast the opponent through residual damage and thus form a solid core.

    What Counters It: The Lati twins, apart from being immune to Toxic Spikes, take very little damage from Tentacruel's STAB attacks and immediately threaten back with STAB Psychic/Psyshock. Gliscor, although it must be wary of switching into Scald, is immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes, and can easily KO Tentacruel with Earthquake. Landorus-Therian is a similar case, although it must watch out for Toxic as well as Scald. Generally, Pokemon who do not fear Tentacruel's STAB attacks and are immune to entry hazards can use Tentacruel as set-up bait.

    Any Additional Info: Tentacruel is one of the few spinners in OU capable of defeating Jellicent, not fearing any of its moves as well as being able to hit it with Toxic and eventually stall it out. The 20 Speed EVs are necessary in order to outspeed Adamant Breloom and Timid Magnezone.
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Curious about a few things:

    I remember when first playing this game, I just picked the Pokemon with the highest base speed / attack / satk / sdef / def for my team [Ninjask / Hydregion / Haxorus / Blissey / Mantine / Cofagrigous].

    Yeah, that team sucks lol. So I originally wanted to nom Cofag. as a Pokemon not to use, but technically its not too bad on TR (and you'll find that your "not use phy sweeper Aggron" is also good in TR).

    My question is that these Pokemon are obviously not newer friendly, and I would also recommend not playing around TR if your a new player.

    So I guess my real Q is this: If a Pokemon has niche (like Cofag. in TR), does this mean that we cannot legitimately say that a newer player should not use it? Also, could we maybe emphasize that gimmicks (like Gatr, which you guys actually recommended; or gimmick strategies like TR) be avoided if you are teambuilding and you've only been in the metagame for a year or less.

    I really like this thread! (I plan on linking it when I post my guide to building teams). GL with it!
  7. isr

    isr

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    What to use:

    [​IMG]
    Lilligant @Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spe
    Modest Nature (+ SAtk / - Atk)
    - Healing Wish
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Fire

    Role: Support

    What It Does:

    With Politoed, Tyranitar, and even Hippowdown being commonly found on OU battles, Ninetales has a hard day to keep its precious sun safe, especially because of a Stealth Rock weakness limiting its entries on the battlefield. Lilligant provides an incredible support to sun teams, not only helping Ninetales in beating opposing Weather Inducers, but also providing help to the entire team. With Sleep Powder, Lilligant can incapacitate an enemy Pokémon that can be very problematic to the Sweepers, while Healing Wish provides a last resort by fully healing a teammate in exchange for Lilligant's health. It's always good to quote that Healing Wish actives before the entry-hazard's damage, so if your opponent's Politoed fainted while your Ninetales has 1% health with Stealth Rock on field, Lilligant can provide the weather war's win. Leaf Storm has an incredible base power, and with the max power of Lilligant, it OHKOes any defensive Politoed, Hippowdon, and 2HKOes Specially Defensive Tyranitar. Lilligant also can acts as a Revenge Killer, thanks to Chlorophyll. Hidden Power Rock provides an excellent coverage, allowing Lilligant to hit things like Volcarona, Dragonite, Salamence, and Tornadus. Hidden Power Fire can be used for Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor, as well for dealing more damage for Abomasnow, while receiving the power boost from sun, but the Rock-type coverage is generally better. The EV Spread maximizes the Special Attack and allows Lilligant to outspeed anything up to 110 base Speed (+1) under sunlight.

    Good Teammates:

    This set is made for sun-based teams, so Ninetales is necessary. Lilligant helps Ninetales for beating opposing Weather Inducers while the fox provides the sun. Teammates that appreciate Lilligant's help are welcome. Victini, Darmanitan, and even Arcanine suffer from Flare Blitz's recoil and Stealth Rock damage, so they will love a Healing Wish for deal more damage to the opponent's team. Sweepers such as Quiver Dance Volcarona, Dragon Dance Salamence and Growth + Chlorophyll Sweepers will love to see a Counter sleeping, as well receiving Healing Wish. Overall, anything that likes guaranteed sun will like Lilligant as a teammate.

    What Counters It:

    Lilligant major issue is the coverage. Without Hidden Power Fire, Steel-types can come in easily and beat Lilligant. Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Forretress can lay entry-hazards to damage Lilligant's teammates, while Scizor can Pursuit if she tries to run away, has priority STAB in Bullet Punch to do heavy damage or simple U-turn to OHKO the flower. Jirachi can quickly paralyze Lilligant with Body Slam or Thunder Wave while the Calm Mind variants can easily set up and proceed to KO. If Lilligant lacks Hidden Power Rock, however, Volcarona, Dragonite, Salamence, and some others Flying- or Fire-types can use the flower as set up bait. After Sleep Clause being activated, Lilligant will have trouble to stop bulky things. Blissey and Chansey can come any time to absorb Leaf Storms or Sleep Powders for help their friends, while healing any damage with Softboiled or ignoring sleep with Natural Cure. They can even use Aromatherapy or Heal Bell to help sleeping teammates. Deoxys-D can lay entry-hazards and paralyze Lilligant if it carry Thunder Wave, turning she into dead weight until faints by Healing Wish. It can also use Magic Coat to reflect a possible Sleep Powder, preventing she from healing a teammate. If sunlight is not up, Lilligant is easily revenge killed; faster things such as Latios, Latias, Terrakion, Keldeo, Salamence, and much more can easily KO Lilligant. Priority users, such as Breloom and Mamoswine, can do heavy damage to Lilligant or knock out the flower before she faints by Healing Wish, but they need to be very careful if try to switch-in.

    ----

    I've rewrite the Ditto's analysis. I will re-post here:

    Show Hide
    What to use:
    [​IMG]
    Ditto @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Imposter
    IVs: 2 Spe
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Transform

    Role: Revenge Killer

    What It Does:
    After being a gimmickly novelty during four generations, Ditto returns in BW2 Metagame with its new Ability — Imposter finally get released. This ability allows Ditto to automatically transform in its opponent when entering in the battlefield, stealing everything from it bar item and HP stat. When equipped with a Choice Scarf, Ditto will nearly always guaranteed to move first if the opponent is not with one too. As the majority threats of the OverUsed metagame carry a "auto-super effective" move, such as Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion, it will easily perform its role. This means that it finally is viable, finding his niche as one of the best revenge killers of the game. Ditto can also act as a "spy". If you want to discover the moveset of a Pokémon that can have several options, like Heatran or Landorus, you can use Ditto to it. Hidden Power Ice-typed is the most recommended, allowing Ditto to revenge kill Landorus. The EV spread gives Ditto a best bulk against a possible failed switch on a Zoroark, but it will not survive a Focus Blast with Life Orb or Choice Specs.

    Despite many advantages, Imposter also has its drawbacks. Ditto cannot copy its opponent HP, meaning that it will stay with its awful 48 base HP. This prevents him from Revenge Kill some bulky Pokémon, such as Conkeldurr, while shortening him life span. Being vulnerable to entry-hazards and with that base HP, Ditto will have troubles to do its function consistently. Also, the pressure when Imposter get released while the failure on usage stats, staying on the depths of NU, gives Ditto a bad reputation. However, a Pokémon like this should not be underestimated and is very fun to play with.

    Good Teammates:

    Ditto is a very easy Pokémon to be acceptable in nearly any team. As it will attack as the opponent, it has not so much teammates required for itself. However, the Transform Pokémon cannot copy its opponent HP, so its awful base HP stat is its major drawback. Even while Ditto can copy an Pokémon with a reliable recover without very trouble, like Skarmory, or recover itself by copying an ability and activating it during a switch, like Volt Absorb Jolteon, Wish support is very appreciated, making Pokémon like Blissey or Jirachi good teammates. Blissey can also act as an cleric, helping Ditto in a disaster if it get burned or paralyzed. Ditto also loves Rapid Spin support, as it will need to enter and leave the battlefield many times. This makes a Rapid Spinner, such as Starmie or Forretress, a important teammate for Ditto, even more if it does not has a Wish support from another one, or it will fall quickly.

    What Counters It:
    As Ditto will transform in its opponent, it does not has a literal counter. Illusion and Substitute are the only real thing that can stop Imposter, but be sure to put it on battlefield before Ditto enters. The best way to deal with Ditto is to do not set up while he is alive, as it will steal and defeat your entire team if you cannot handle your +6/+6 Dragonite. Paralyze and Burn are also great ways to stop it, but a Ditto probably will only switch-in if it has certain that can handle the move, mainly if it know that the oponent can paralyze or burn it. Ditto also cannot beat opponent with great bulk, as it has a awful base HP and will not copy from the opponent. That means that it will not defeat the opponent in a OHKO and will be OHKO'd back. If Ditto try to Revenge Kill a Choice Scarf user, it will have 50% fail chance of get defeated in a speed tie. If you are desperate, you can use a signature item-dependent Pokémon, like Pikachu, as Ditto cannot copy its item and will fail to defeat the much stronger opponent.

    Any Additional Info:
    Ditto can use a Iron Ball if you want to use it in a Trick Room team, allowing it to move after the opponent and, consequently, before it on Trick Room. Another type for Hidden Power is also a good option if you want to hit a specific target, such as a Fire-type to hit Chlorophyll Sweepers harder in sun.


    If anyone has a comment, please go ahead. ^^
  8. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    860

    So I think the idea is that we tell them very specifically HOW to use things, so that they know what is and isn't good on a specific team filling a specific role. As to your point about gimmicks, I feel like you're kinda underselling both of those things. A gimmick is something that works only because no one would expect it and is generally a one time use type of thing, while Trick Room teams, Feraligatr, and some of the other fringe things on the list are perfectly viable strategies if well constructed, I would be fine with maybe categorizing things based on beginner or advance or something in that vein.
  9. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Hmmm... I just don't think that relying on Gimmicks is a good idea if your new. If you don't rely on them to be successful, then its healthy; however, newer players will use Gimmicks since they fully rely on the surprise factor, and that is not a healthy thing for newer players. See here for a user who shares my opinion and explains it better than I can.

    I don't want to undersell gimmicks, but I also don't think they should be too heavily relied on. Also, not many newer players can construct a working TR team, as many will put Pokemon on like Whismicott, thinking TR gets +1, etc., which is my concern.

    Anyway, Trick Room has its niche. Gatr has its niche. Maybe it would be a good idea to categorize them, as you suggested, (or simply add a warning in their description; like in Gatr's you could say how it should be avoided if one doesn't have enough experience in the teambuilding field or something to that extent).

    To respond to the last extent: many strategies are viable (like TR and BP), but I would discourage strategies that require more experience. For example, I actually won a PO tour using a Specs Blissey team. Now, that team is not a serious team and even I consider it ass juice, but I made it work because I knew how to use its surprise factor. Thanks for taking the time to reply :P I hope I'm helping
  10. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    860
    Yeah I don't disagree with your points at all but I'm just having a hard time comparing Feraligatr to specs Blissey lol. Feraligatr isn't a bad pokemon in this metagame and doesn't need to rely on surprise factor to work. But besides from these specific example I agree with what you're saying to a point. However I don't think those teams are *as* hard as that and sometimes it's good for beginners to use things that actually require a little thought as it helps them learn what things do. I'm fine with going back through and adding tags to the sets to indicate experience level suggested if people think that would help.

    Thanks for the feedback, always appreciated!
  11. Nova

    Nova Palisades
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    What To Use

    [​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Swift Swim
    EVs: 40 HP / 240 SpA / 228 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse

    Role: Special Sweeper


    What It Does:
    With the current influx of Rain teams that revolve around Drizzle Politoed, Kingdra is one of the deadliest sweepers in OU now when his Swift Swim ability is activated. In early Black and White, the combination of Drizzle+Swift Swim on the same team was disabled, causing the sea dragon to fall a bit from grace and down to the haven of UU. However, with the arrival of things such as Keldeo and Thundurus-T, more and more teams are using Drizzle teams so Kingdra can take advantage of opposing rain teams. In the rain, his Speed stat is doubled which allows him to outspeed almost everything in the metagame, the given EV spread allows him to outspeed Scarf Latios if it is raining and also threats such as Jolly Breloom and Adamant Dragonite if it is not. His great dual STABs provide awesome coverage with each other, with Ferrothorn being the only Pokemon in OU that resists both of them. Rain boosted Hydro Pumps and STAB Draco Meteors can really put a beating on your opponent. Even if your opponent is not packing a Rain team, Kingdra still serves as a great sweeper as he can set up Rain Dance himself and pull off a late game sweep. Another great perk of Kingdra is his solid 75/95/95 defense which provides him with decent bulk and a great dual typing that leaves him with only 1 weakness and 4x resistances to Water and Fire.

    Good Teammates:
    Entry hazard setters such as Deoxys-D and Forretress are good partners for Kingdra. Both of them can set up Stealth Rock and layers of Spikes that help Kingdra sweep, turning 2HKO's into OHKO's. Forretress can also provide Rapid Spin support which is very useful as Kingdra can be worn down by entry hazard damage and can be stalled out if Poisoned by Toxic Spikes. Magnezone is a solid partner for Kingdra as his Magnet Pull ability allows him to trap and beat Ferrothorn, which is the only OU Pokemon that resists both of Kingdra's STABs. Terrakion is also a great partner because he can easily take out special walls Blissey and Chansey with Close Combat and also handles Ferrothorn. Lastly, Thundurus-T is a decent partner because he can set up on Ferrothorn, resisting Power Whip and Gyro Ball while being immune to Thunder Wave, and beat Ferrothorn as well as bulky Water types.


    What Counters It:
    Ferrothorn is one of the best counters to Kingdra because the metal plant resists both Dragon and Water, can Thunder Wave Kingdra to slow it down, and then wear it down with Power Whip and Leech Seed or set up entry hazards all over it. Blissey and Chansey can also take Kingdra's attacks due to their massive Special Defensive bulk and stall him out with Toxic. Bulky Water and Grass types such as Vaporeon and Celebi can also be hard for Kingdra to break through and both of them can stall Kingdra while having access to instant recovery.
  12. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    [​IMG]

    Salamence (M) @ Lum Berry / Life Orb / Yache Berry
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage / Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast / Hydro Pump

    Roles: Physical Sweeper

    What It Does: Although Salamence faces extreme competition from Dragonite, which has Multiscale and is bulkier, in addition to having Extremespeed, Salamence has a lot of advantages. Salamence is faster, and thus, it is able to outspeed things like non-Scarf Heatran without boosts, Scarf Heatran without any boost, and more rare threats like Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Darmanitan, Jolteon, and Scarf Haxorus (this is all assuming a Dragon Dance boost, of course). These are things that Dragonite can only dream in doing. In addition, Salamence has Moxie, which creates a deadly snowball effect that makes strategies like sacrificing a Pokémon to check Salamence un-viable: for each kill, Salamence gets another boost on its Attack, to the point that it may be impossible to wall after one or two kills, and after two Dragon Dances, the only reliable way to stop this thing is using Mamoswine or Weavile.

    Dragon Dance is the crux of this set. Outrage is the recommended STAB option; it has a lot of power after a Dragon Dance, and can absolutely demolish teams after one or two Moxie boosts. Dragon Claw can be used instead because Outrage will lock Salamence on the same attack; however, Dragon Claw is noticeably weaker. Earthquake is the main coverage option to destroy many Steel-types like Heatran and Jirachi. It is also useful to beat Rock-, Fire-, Electric-, and Poison-type Pokémon without having to resort to Outrage. However, many Steel-types do not mind Earthquake at all; that's why Fire Blast is chosen on the last slot, as every Steel-type that is not weak to Ground, with exception of Ballon Heatran, will be roasted by Fire Blast. Although it doesn't benefit from Moxie boosts, Fire Blast is also useful because it destroys Skarmory, a threat that can comfortably take boosted Outrages. If you are using Salamence on a rain team, Hydro Pump should be used instead. It still hits many Steel-types that do not mind Earthquake hard, especially when boosted by rain. Also, it defeats Ballon Heatran, a Pokémon that can easily defeat variants with Fire Blast by bypassing Earthquake and freezing Salamence with Hidden Power Ice. However, Hydro Pump leaves Salamence walled by Ferrothorn, which is a Pokémon that already has tendency to give headaches to rain teams. Take care of this fact, and choose wisely your attack.

    Lum Berry is the main item to protect Salamence from status and to mitigate the confusion side-effect from Outrage. Thanks to Moxie, Salamence will not miss the extra power from Life Orb most of time. If you are using Dragon Claw, however, Life Orb is the recommended item to buff the power of Dragon Claw, because Salamence will initially mind the lack of power with Lum Berry. Yache Berry is an option to let Salamence survive one Ice Shard from Mamoswine. It has significant surprise factor, as there are teams that rely heavily on Mamoswine to take Salamence out, and once Mamoswine is gone, Salamence can tear apart these teams. However, Salamence will seriously miss either the extra power of Life Orb, or the status protection from Lum Berry.

    Good Teammates: Hazard setters are good partners. Those hazards break enemy Focus Sashs and transform 2HKOs on OHKOs. Deoxys-D, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Forretress are the best Pokémon for this job. The latter can even support Salamence with Rapid Spin, which is very helpful since Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock. Starmie is another solid spinner to pair with Salamence, as it can also defeat many Steel-types and physical walls with its STAB Hydro Pump and its coverage moves. Magnezone is a great partner because it is a more reliable way to take out Steel-types that wall Salamence's Outrage, and can use Volt Switch to give Salamence opportunities to use Dragon Dance.

    What Counters It: To be honest, it is hard to counter Salamence. Skarmory needs to be wary of Fire Blast and rain-boosted Hydro Pump. But you can lure Salamence on using Outrage, which will give Steel-types the perfect opportunity to switch-in and phaze him. The same can be said for physically sturdy non-Steel-type Pokémon like Hippowdon or Slowbro. However, Salamence is very easy to check. Even after +1, many Scarf Pokémon, like Terrakion, Keldeo, Landorus, Thundurus-T, and Lati@os, can outspeed and OHKO Salamence with the appropriate move. Mamoswine and Weavile have Ice Shard, so even if Salamence has six speed boosts, they will bypass this and OHKO Salamence. Scizor resists Outrage and 2HKO with Bullet Punch, but you need to lure Salamence on using Outrage, because it has Fire Blast to instantly roast Scizor. Depending of the last moveslot, Salamence can be countered by either Air Ballon Heatran, or by Ferrothorn. Ballon Heatran counter Salamence with Fire Blast, as it can come in safely on most attacks, comfortably take a +1 Outrage, and OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. Thanks to Air Ballon, Heatran will not mind Earthquake. However, it needs to be wary of switching-in on Dragon Claw, as if it does this, Ballon will pop, enabling Heatran to be outsped and OHKOed by Earthquake. Ferrothorn counters variants with Hydro Pump, as it takes little damage from even Earthquake, can use Leech Seed to annoy Salamence, or it can simply try to take it down with Gyro Ball.
  13. Iridescent.

    Iridescent. formerly Bluwing

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    745
    Use

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Choice Band
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP | 252 Atk | 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor
    - Sacred Sword / Quick Attack

    Role: Wallbreaker / Physical Sweeper

    What It Does: Terrakion is an amazing wallbreaker, there is not a lot off pokemon that can switch reliably in to its dual STAB's, and those who can are often outspeeded by Terrakion's high base 108 speed. Close Combat and Stone Edge has nearly resisted coverage in OU only resisted by Toxicroak! With those amazing STAB moves, it makes Terrakion by far the best Choice Bander in the game, while also resisting rocks, having great speed and solid bulk it has all the factors that can make it an solid wallbreaker.

    The coverage moves that Terrakion has really isn't that needed, but X-Scissor is an nice addition as it hits Lati@s harder, and spots an 100% accuracy which is great. The last moveslot can contain either Sacred Sword or Quick Attack, both are nice options, and it can be discussed what that is the best move to run. Sacred Sword is great if you want have a STAB move that doesn't lower you'r defense stat's which can be great if you really need Terrakion to stay in. Quick Attack is great for revenge killing fast and frail sweepers that has been weared down throughout the game, so you can pick either one.

    The EV spread is max attack and max speed, and it's benefitial for an offensive pokemon like Terrakion so it can hit as hard as possible as fast as possible. The reason for Jolly nature is to speed tie with other Choice Band Terrakion, Virizion and Infernape while also outspeeding max speed base 102's, and down as it can be quit crucial. Other moves like Earthquake and Double Kick can be used over Sacred Sword and Quick Attack., but Earthquake is quite redundant as Close Combat and Stone Edge hits what Earthquake hits anyway. Double Kick can be used to beat Focus Sash Mamoswine and is an nifty option and sounds quite interresting.

    Good Teammates: Tyranitar is an great teammate due to having Sand Stream which are boosting Terrakion's SpD by 1.5x which can be realy helpfull. Tyranitar can also eleminate Ghost and Psychic types which bother Terrakion, and can make sweeping so much easier for Terrakion. Also pokemon like Scizor can be quite useful as it can get Terrakion in safely with an slow U-Turn and eleminate Ghost and Psychic types as well. And then we have Lati@s which be realy hlelpfull beating stuff like Scizor and Breloom which is a sike in Terrakion's side as both ohko's it with their priority moves, and both Lati@s can deal with those annoying, but strong physical attackers.

    What Counters It: There realy isn't anything which can counter Terrakion fully, but the best bet is Landorus-T as it can use it's Intimidate to cut Terrakion's attack by half a point, and then proceed to ohko with Earthquake other than that you really have to sacrifice something, also Forretress can beat Terrakion as it can tank an Close Combat or an Stone Edge to then proceed to ohko with Gyro Ball, but it's an quite shaky counter. And then ohko it with a fast Scarfer or priority users like Breloom, Scizor, Lati@s, Keldeo, Alakazam or Garchomp, Metagross can also revenge kill with Bullet Punch, but Metagross is realy rare and can't realy counter it.
  14. BlackLight

    BlackLight

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    709
    X-Scissor doesn't see much use on Terrakion, and its generally a bad move to be choice locked into. I run Rock Slide over it so that I don't get screwed over as often by misses, but I still have Stone Edge for when I need to hit something really hard. Also, Double Kick is a really underrated option that people doen't use much, I'm glad you listed it. Its pulled through for me several times.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,302
    Double Kick is bad to lock into despite breaking subs. I speak from experience, you'll almost always want X-Scissor or Rock Slide instead
  16. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Palace Mavenis the Smogon Tour Season 15 Champion

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    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Choice Band
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP | 252 Atk | 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Rock Slide
    - Quick Attack

    X-Scissor is kinda useless because Stone Edge has the same power (150). It's only useful against Celebi but no one uses +Def Celebi and the other versions get 2HKO'd by Stone Edge. Quick Attack is a pretty nice priority move on Terrak and since Earthquake is useless, why not running a priority move.
  17. Iridescent.

    Iridescent. formerly Bluwing

    Joined:
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    I listed it because it has 100% accuracy and hits the Lati twins harder than Stone Edge, but I do see the point that X-Scissor is a bad move to lock into as there is a lot of pokemon resisting bug in OU. Therefore I also said that Terrakion really doesn't need anymore coverage, and I should have added Rock Slide as well, so thanks changing that up.
  18. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    X-Scissor 75 x 2 = 150
    Stone Edge = 150

    X-Scissor doesn't hit Lati@s harder.
  19. Iridescent.

    Iridescent. formerly Bluwing

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Yes it does, but it really doesnt matter as both will OHKO after Stealth Rock,
    but I do agree with you that Rock Slide might be the better option over X-Scissor.

  20. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    X-scizzor is 80.
  21. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
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    Earthquake is NOT useless. If Terrakion has moveslots to spare, why the hell wouldn't you want to use a powerful move that crushes the one OU Pokemon that does resist your STAB moves? It's also great for Tentacruel if you don't want to rely on Stone Edge, and hell, even Nidoqueen. Rock Slide and Quick Attack are dumb option >_> Rock Slide will always deal less damage than Stone Edge on average, as 100x0.8= 80, and 75x0.9=67.5. Quick Attack is piss weak, and X-Scissor is a far superior option for hitting Celebi.
  22. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    o sorry, thought it was 75. Lol Rock Slide can flinch and almost never misses. Quick Attack is a great option, what are you talking about.
  23. Iridescent.

    Iridescent. formerly Bluwing

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    Earthqauke is redundant with Close Combat and Stone Edge as both of these STAB move hits the everything else just the same as Earthquake does it self. Also what you're saying about Tentacruel and Nidoqueen switching in on CB Terrakion is not true as Terrakion 2HKO both with its appropriate moves.

  24. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
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    These are the usage of Nidoqueen's OU EVs:

    252/0/0/252/4/0 19.799% | 252/0/252/0/4/0 15.573% | 4/0/0/252/0/252 15.171% | 252/252/0/0/4/0 8.370% | 252/0/224/0/32/0 5.553% | 252/0/252/0/0/4 3.944% | Other 31.590%

    basically, you're almost never going to encounter one with no HP investment BROStime. Close Combat deals 38.8 - 45.83% to 252/0 Nidoqueen and 29.68 - 35.15% to 252/252 Nidoqueen. Rock Slide misses 10% of the time, and has a lower base damage output than Stone Edge. Terrakion is most often spamming Close Combat anyway, which Tentacruel can come in on. Even if it comes in on Rock Slide, it can Protect, pivot into Jirachi or Ferro or something. Or if it gets a low damage roll simply KO Terrakion with Scald. Quick Attack in a non STAB 40 BP move, that is also pure setup fodder. I'd much rather be able to OHKO a Pokemon that isn't rarely seen coming in on Terrakion, as Terrakion, as previously stated, mostly spams Close Combat. Also X-Scissor is a better option than Stone eDge against any bulky Psychic since not only does Stone Edge have lower power against them, it has the tendency to miss, which you don't want against Pokemon that have super-effective STAB against you.
  25. Iridescent.

    Iridescent. formerly Bluwing

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    The thing with X-Scissor is that it should be used if you're team has problems with bulky Psychic types if not a third STAB move is also a great replacement, so I guess X-Scissor and Rock Slide is kinda optional.

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