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OU Team Rater Competition Finals! [Won by Miridy]
- Thread starter TPP
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heartiest congrats towards Miridy, damn well done Nedor, just some things i need to get off my chest.
oki doki, i'll say about 0.5/4 of my mind atm before i get lazy again as we're awaiting the rates to conduct an actual analysis of them i guess. o.o
the team in particular, and the reasoning are bothering me. the team itself has several internal issues, making it tricky to quote "work around" the specific problems. i'm not gonna bother visualizing the 60+ or so weaknesses of the team as the finalists probably addressed them in their own fashions. ok metagame wise, oras ou has been heavily influenced by certain factors. one namely being hazard control, which is one of the teams main strongpoints and weakpoints. aside from that, its tough to pinpoint an actual strength of the build.
"as each one had a notable problem with them (one changing the team a bit too much while also managing to not securely fix a major threat, and the other with changing the base/core of the original team, which goes against the standard RMT rules)"
for the first part, i'll need to see the actual rates and then the analyses for them to offer any understanding of what was meant. for the second part, the team itself has several forced restrictions which require you to think of several options to fix the many flaws of the team, and have it operate. one of the main things that probably stood out was bu talon > qd volc.
"changing the base of he original team which goes against the standard rmt rules" well tell me honestly, what else could they have done to have a comfortable, operating team that has counterplay thats capable of forming wincons throughout the match? otherwise you'd be left with an inconsistent, uncomfortable, team.
don't know about much people but i wouldn't even consider to play a game where i'm forced to make the "best" play every time a turn passes just to develop my win condition or not lose. anyways, even if it quote "bypasses" the "standard" rules, you're pretty much forced to make certain suggestions for the team to operate, due to the original build?
"It was a very close round, but the major issues with each one made it difficult to judge, as well as the fact that each participant gave completely different suggestions." yeah, this comes with preference at looking on how to 'rate' the team. sometimes when builds like these appear, its dream on one side but a nightmare on the other.
miridy in particular, don't really know him / her too well but if i can identify correctly, probably wanted patch up the team at its base, and then apply fixes to match up for the team. again, this was definitely the aftereffects of trying to rework a team like this. (can you please hand me the import i rly wanna see how it looks o.o, would love to see you rate more as well :3)
nedor, he probably looked at it a different way. he gave me the importable after he had rated the team, and honestly i was impressed with what he made out of it. and as you said before, completely different suggestions. if i know him right, he's the type of person to analyse literally everything in connection when rating a team. (he probably mentioned literally anything that could happen to the team) from what i've seen from the import as opposed to the original, he basically covered 90% of the issues to the team, looks fun and comfy to play and consistent. team previews pretty sick too.
lastly, on a personal level. what would you have done to the team for a rate? aside from the weaknesses, which most are fatal due to the way the build was constructed itself, metagame issues and the overall functions of the team.
(and for nedor ₍₍ ◝(・ω・)◟ ⁾⁾☆: don't get depressed from not winning, you had an amazing run and i'm soo proud of you man for making it this far. you improved a ton too, your rates are an amazing read, a ton of people would agree too and i love ya! gl on earning that tr badge hehe, u only have a few areas to improve on)
for the lazy people: its the build at fault, not the rates, they only did their best to improve the team, and builders mindset and a handful of other things. not sure if this got /out of hand/ but i was just annoyed at how the notable problem was phrased. and yeah i'm surprised on how people even managed to get the rate out, was a difficult team to rate.
after reading this, don't you think it was near impossible to avoid doing what was stated as the problems? that's all, hope you didn't mind constructive criticism and if we can't see the round winning rates, can we at least see the raw final rates? holy shit it would be helpful to so many people looking forward to improve. if we could see them and it'd be much easier to look at both analyses of the rates and then specific rates to distinguish what was being conveyed. thanks, i'll be looking forward to another one of these. :)
the team in particular, and the reasoning are bothering me. the team itself has several internal issues, making it tricky to quote "work around" the specific problems. i'm not gonna bother visualizing the 60+ or so weaknesses of the team as the finalists probably addressed them in their own fashions. ok metagame wise, oras ou has been heavily influenced by certain factors. one namely being hazard control, which is one of the teams main strongpoints and weakpoints. aside from that, its tough to pinpoint an actual strength of the build.
"as each one had a notable problem with them (one changing the team a bit too much while also managing to not securely fix a major threat, and the other with changing the base/core of the original team, which goes against the standard RMT rules)"
for the first part, i'll need to see the actual rates and then the analyses for them to offer any understanding of what was meant. for the second part, the team itself has several forced restrictions which require you to think of several options to fix the many flaws of the team, and have it operate. one of the main things that probably stood out was bu talon > qd volc.
"changing the base of he original team which goes against the standard rmt rules" well tell me honestly, what else could they have done to have a comfortable, operating team that has counterplay thats capable of forming wincons throughout the match? otherwise you'd be left with an inconsistent, uncomfortable, team.
don't know about much people but i wouldn't even consider to play a game where i'm forced to make the "best" play every time a turn passes just to develop my win condition or not lose. anyways, even if it quote "bypasses" the "standard" rules, you're pretty much forced to make certain suggestions for the team to operate, due to the original build?
"It was a very close round, but the major issues with each one made it difficult to judge, as well as the fact that each participant gave completely different suggestions." yeah, this comes with preference at looking on how to 'rate' the team. sometimes when builds like these appear, its dream on one side but a nightmare on the other.
miridy in particular, don't really know him / her too well but if i can identify correctly, probably wanted patch up the team at its base, and then apply fixes to match up for the team. again, this was definitely the aftereffects of trying to rework a team like this. (can you please hand me the import i rly wanna see how it looks o.o, would love to see you rate more as well :3)
nedor, he probably looked at it a different way. he gave me the importable after he had rated the team, and honestly i was impressed with what he made out of it. and as you said before, completely different suggestions. if i know him right, he's the type of person to analyse literally everything in connection when rating a team. (he probably mentioned literally anything that could happen to the team) from what i've seen from the import as opposed to the original, he basically covered 90% of the issues to the team, looks fun and comfy to play and consistent. team previews pretty sick too.
lastly, on a personal level. what would you have done to the team for a rate? aside from the weaknesses, which most are fatal due to the way the build was constructed itself, metagame issues and the overall functions of the team.
(and for nedor ₍₍ ◝(・ω・)◟ ⁾⁾☆: don't get depressed from not winning, you had an amazing run and i'm soo proud of you man for making it this far. you improved a ton too, your rates are an amazing read, a ton of people would agree too and i love ya! gl on earning that tr badge hehe, u only have a few areas to improve on)
for the lazy people: its the build at fault, not the rates, they only did their best to improve the team, and builders mindset and a handful of other things. not sure if this got /out of hand/ but i was just annoyed at how the notable problem was phrased. and yeah i'm surprised on how people even managed to get the rate out, was a difficult team to rate.
after reading this, don't you think it was near impossible to avoid doing what was stated as the problems? that's all, hope you didn't mind constructive criticism and if we can't see the round winning rates, can we at least see the raw final rates? holy shit it would be helpful to so many people looking forward to improve. if we could see them and it'd be much easier to look at both analyses of the rates and then specific rates to distinguish what was being conveyed. thanks, i'll be looking forward to another one of these. :)
Congratulations to Miridy for winning, and good job Nedor for making it as far as he did. You've got a lot of potential Nedor and it's been a pleasure getting to know you since you got involved with RMT :)
This is not a jab at Snowy btw, because you can play with a team well and still have it not be a good rateable team.
Changing the core does not "go against the standard RMT rules", especially when the team presented for rating had quite a few fundamental flaws that make it difficult to rate such a team in the current offensively inclined meta. I would have considered changing that core out because if a core is shit, it's shit, there's no two ways around that. I want to stress that it is not against the rules to change a core, and changing too much is an extremely subjective point as well and should not be used for deciding a competition like this. Maybe, here's an idea, you should have picked a team that didn't have 5 really slow mons and a Manaphy as its fastest member. That's an extremely constricting set of circumstances to start with tbh.
This is not a jab at Snowy btw, because you can play with a team well and still have it not be a good rateable team.
I hope this is a misphrasing, but you shouldn't reward people for doing well in earlier rounds in the finals of a round.
Snowy. my nigga where's the cash HO squad that I expected :[
Celticpride, a core is the basis on which the team is built around, yes? So if you change the very basis around which the team is built, doesn't that kinda render the very fabric of the team as different from what it was actually meant to be? Looks like RMT rules need a makeover. I do agree, however, that it's not always wrong to replace one of the mons in the original core but I rarely see a good rate that executes this.
So yeah, really think that the rating rules need to be overlooked again and get a possible makeover.
Celticpride, a core is the basis on which the team is built around, yes? So if you change the very basis around which the team is built, doesn't that kinda render the very fabric of the team as different from what it was actually meant to be? Looks like RMT rules need a makeover. I do agree, however, that it's not always wrong to replace one of the mons in the original core but I rarely see a good rate that executes this.
So yeah, really think that the rating rules need to be overlooked again and get a possible makeover.
If the fabric of a team needs to be changed for better execution, then it needs to be changed for better execution. This is all philosophical but "don't change the core" type speak is typically aimed at newer raters to give them direction when they start rating. Experienced raters can take a lot of liberties that newer raters shouldn't, because in the end it's all about making a team better prepared for the meta as a whole, regardless of what part of the core changes.
Edit: just off the top of my head, the team presented has large weaknesses to Char-Y, Hoopa, and Psychic Manaphy. You can't change any of the non Volc or Sableye parts without opening up a weakness to another thing. So what's a rater to do? Change the core. These are common threats that get a lot of use, so it's not even something like Mega Shark where you can just hope it's not common enough.
I'll address this briefly, as Analytic took the words out of my mouth for the most part. So I made this team during olt based off a cicada team, during the period of time where everyone was spamming Goth stall as it effectively crushed that team as well as a majority of fat balance teams, which evidently helped me to peak first during cycle three. Im aware that its a very match up reliant team, but I choose it because I thought the challenge of adapting this team to a more current meta would be a challenge worth of a final.
However what I got from both rates was an inability to do so, with both users resorting to either changing a majority of the team to make it barely recognisable as my own or disregarding the ential core and concept, which completely went against the challenge I set .
I also feel that both users approached this from a non forum perspective. Outside of the forums, both there rates would have been acceptable, however we were judging strictly from a forum point of view. Although maybe for the better, if your rate does not comply with the guidelines set in place by the op, its very unlikely they'll take them aboard which makes your rate redundant as you won't have accomplished anything or helped anyone. This was the case here, where both users struggled to comply with these guidelines at hand.
There's probably a lot more I could add onto about why we choose who we did, but I won't get into that, as at the end of the day 8 very competent team raters looked into every aspect of who and why should win for literally hours and a vote was held which came down to the wire.I hope this address's the team concerns for the most part, but if you have any more queries about it feel free to ask me directly.
However what I got from both rates was an inability to do so, with both users resorting to either changing a majority of the team to make it barely recognisable as my own or disregarding the ential core and concept, which completely went against the challenge I set .
I also feel that both users approached this from a non forum perspective. Outside of the forums, both there rates would have been acceptable, however we were judging strictly from a forum point of view. Although maybe for the better, if your rate does not comply with the guidelines set in place by the op, its very unlikely they'll take them aboard which makes your rate redundant as you won't have accomplished anything or helped anyone. This was the case here, where both users struggled to comply with these guidelines at hand.
There's probably a lot more I could add onto about why we choose who we did, but I won't get into that, as at the end of the day 8 very competent team raters looked into every aspect of who and why should win for literally hours and a vote was held which came down to the wire.I hope this address's the team concerns for the most part, but if you have any more queries about it feel free to ask me directly.
every team i've seen in this competition so far had extremely glaring weaknesses to things that are mandatory to check, or they just flat out looked aimlessly thrown together (that first one...). i kinda tried to rate these in my own time for fun, and even though i don't rate much on forums, i do rate a solid amount on ps! to the point where i can safely say i can comment here. it was nearly impossible to not do a long rate for these.
i'll edit this when i have time w/ more thoughts...
edit: i actually pm'd celtic and tp about the bad teams during the first round, and moving forward the teams got seemingly worse and worse. this isn't a jab at the people who made these teams because they weren't bad teams, but they weren't good for this project; to make these teams (especially the first and last ones) as efficient as possible, multiple changes had to be made. looking from the outside in, i can't see a way someone could efficiently rate these without changing 2-3 pokemon. when it's difficult for good raters with experience to rate a team without making so many changes, that should tell you guys that the teams chosen weren't the best for this...
i didn't post this to undermine miridy in any way. obviously if he/she made it to the finals, he/she is a good rater. however, i'm not gonna try and be all nice and polite to those that handled this project when i believe it was handled poorly. celtic did a good job of addressing my concerns and the blatant flaws in this in a more polite way.
edit edit: also being rude and saying shit about both raters having long rates and them "not following rmt rules" when an rmt mod said they did is totally rude and disrespectful to both nedor and miridy. that's probably discouraging to both of them... especially when one of them lost.
i'll edit this when i have time w/ more thoughts...
edit: i actually pm'd celtic and tp about the bad teams during the first round, and moving forward the teams got seemingly worse and worse. this isn't a jab at the people who made these teams because they weren't bad teams, but they weren't good for this project; to make these teams (especially the first and last ones) as efficient as possible, multiple changes had to be made. looking from the outside in, i can't see a way someone could efficiently rate these without changing 2-3 pokemon. when it's difficult for good raters with experience to rate a team without making so many changes, that should tell you guys that the teams chosen weren't the best for this...
i didn't post this to undermine miridy in any way. obviously if he/she made it to the finals, he/she is a good rater. however, i'm not gonna try and be all nice and polite to those that handled this project when i believe it was handled poorly. celtic did a good job of addressing my concerns and the blatant flaws in this in a more polite way.
edit edit: also being rude and saying shit about both raters having long rates and them "not following rmt rules" when an rmt mod said they did is totally rude and disrespectful to both nedor and miridy. that's probably discouraging to both of them... especially when one of them lost.
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Aight this thing has officially crossed into "it's a mess" territory so we're all going to take a little break for a while. Maybe I'll reopen maybe I won't. But we all need a little break now.
First of all I'd like to congratulate Miridy for winning, you performed extremely well throughout and I hope you use this as a springboard to becoming more involved in RMT! And Nedor, please don't feel discouraged man. You're one of the most promising raters we've had recently and the effort and level of detail you put into your work is just incredible. Congrats on making it this far and it's awesome to see you improving so much and doing well in this tour! Really proud of both you guys.
Now onto the backlash the team has received...from what Snowy said it seems that it was built for a previous meta and the challenge set to the raters was to adapt it to the current meta. So the raters went about doing this to the best of their ability, and unfortunately one rate didn't fix the problem to a major threat while the other moved away a bit too much from the core idea. Now the latter is obviously not something we encourage as a basic aspect of rating, but if changing the core was truly the only effective way to adapt the team to the current metagame while at the same time solidifying it against the threats, then there honestly shouldn't be a problem with that. I've spoken to the hosts though and they believe the team could have been improved without changes to the extent of those in the rates. They said they are soon going to provide an analysis of the rates and highlight exactly what their pros and cons are, as well as their own opinions on how the raters could have best gone about improving the team. So can we please all just calm down now and stop jumping on their backs? Give them a chance to post their full thoughts.
Also I really don't appreciate that hosts are being called out personally for this when they have put an absolute ton of effort into setting up this project, which was a fantastic idea by the way, and running it smoothly and fairly the whole way. There haven't been any complaints at all before this round so I don't see how people can say none of the teams were good for the project. They put a huge amount of thought into developing the ideal team for each round and carefully assessing each and every rate. Maybe the team they provided this round wasn't the most rateable, but they've still done their best for this project and deserve to be appreciated for that.
Finally about the length of the rates, there's nothing wrong with that as long as raters don't go about repeating the same points and try to be as concise as possible, which is what Yagura meant. Regardless, I doubt either Miridy or Nedor have that problem; from their rates it seems that they simply have great attention to detail and don't want to leave any stone unturned in their rates, which is definitely a good quality. I don't think anyone meant to be disrespectful and rude to them.
Edit: Agreeing that this should be closed for the time being. I'll reopen this when the hosts want to post their thoughts and analyses.
Now onto the backlash the team has received...from what Snowy said it seems that it was built for a previous meta and the challenge set to the raters was to adapt it to the current meta. So the raters went about doing this to the best of their ability, and unfortunately one rate didn't fix the problem to a major threat while the other moved away a bit too much from the core idea. Now the latter is obviously not something we encourage as a basic aspect of rating, but if changing the core was truly the only effective way to adapt the team to the current metagame while at the same time solidifying it against the threats, then there honestly shouldn't be a problem with that. I've spoken to the hosts though and they believe the team could have been improved without changes to the extent of those in the rates. They said they are soon going to provide an analysis of the rates and highlight exactly what their pros and cons are, as well as their own opinions on how the raters could have best gone about improving the team. So can we please all just calm down now and stop jumping on their backs? Give them a chance to post their full thoughts.
Also I really don't appreciate that hosts are being called out personally for this when they have put an absolute ton of effort into setting up this project, which was a fantastic idea by the way, and running it smoothly and fairly the whole way. There haven't been any complaints at all before this round so I don't see how people can say none of the teams were good for the project. They put a huge amount of thought into developing the ideal team for each round and carefully assessing each and every rate. Maybe the team they provided this round wasn't the most rateable, but they've still done their best for this project and deserve to be appreciated for that.
Finally about the length of the rates, there's nothing wrong with that as long as raters don't go about repeating the same points and try to be as concise as possible, which is what Yagura meant. Regardless, I doubt either Miridy or Nedor have that problem; from their rates it seems that they simply have great attention to detail and don't want to leave any stone unturned in their rates, which is definitely a good quality. I don't think anyone meant to be disrespectful and rude to them.
Edit: Agreeing that this should be closed for the time being. I'll reopen this when the hosts want to post their thoughts and analyses.
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You guys, at the end of the road I'm the victim, being the one that I have to analyze and write all the (LONG) rates.
Nah, just kidding. Don't let a long rate discourage you, sometimes it is required, and truthfully we can see how you are dedicated.
As promised, we'll make the rates for the Final public:
Nedor's rate shows us an important point. It has been discussed already but the team is slow even for a stall team by today's ORAS standards, effectively having no real "solid" backbone and giving the majority of wallbreakers and/or stallbreakers an easy time. The most important examples would be Tail Glow Manaphy, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Hoopa-U , LO Tornadus-T and Kyurem-Black. Setup sweepers are also problematic, the most glaring ones being SD Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Belly Drum Azumarill, Power up Punch Mega Lopunny and SD Mega Heracross.
Another important point is that this team has troubles on taking status moves. Specifically talking, the team by itself does not have many problems at tanking status moves, or Scalds, however there are two threats that can capitalize on this, being Rotom-W and SD/BU+Wow Talonflame. Especially if we look how Manaphy has an offensive EV spread, making it less durable in the long run.
With the threats established, Nedor suggests his first change, which is Zapdos over Skarmory. With this change the team has a Defogger that can now use attacking moves in order to scare threats. Zapdos also helps against Azumarill, Crawdaunt and Mega Pinsir in a single package.
The next change is Special Defensive Hippowdon over the current one, which allows Hippowdon to tank hits from threats like Thundurus, Mega Charizard-Y (if sand is present and Charizard is Timid), Life Orb Gengar and Mega Diancie better.
After this Nedor suggests switching Fake Out with Toxic in order to have a final measure to weaken Mega Charizard-Y if the situation requires it. Toxic also helps against threats that give Volcarona problems such as Talonflame and special defensive Mega Slowbro.
Lastly Nedor recommends WishTect Unaware Clefable over Amoonguss as an answer for setup sweepers such as Serperior, Hawlucha and Mega Lopunny.
Now then, before I go further let me state this: I'm not bad.. I'm just drawn that way.
First off you make an important point Nedor that the team is slow and passive, yet you remove the only member of the team capable of outspeeding Hoopa (not that Manaphy wins a 1v1 confrontation against Hoopa but at least it has chances if Hoopa has been weakened). Hippowdon's EV spread change also means that Life Orb Hoopa will 2HKO it. Furthermore Slowbro adds a Dark weakness and the only resist, Clefable, is defeated by Gunk Shot. Overall the suggested changes make Hoopa a much bigger problem for the team.
Having Clefable as an answer to setup sweepers is okay, however it makes the team even more passive. For example, Mega Gyarados now can easily setup a Substitute / Dragon Dance on Mega Sableye and Slowbro. Zapdos has problems if Stealth Rock and Sand are present, only have a very small 5% chance to avoid the 2HKO at +1. Discharge has to rely on the para (just like Mega Gyarados can hope for a flinch), since it cannot OHKO Mega Gyarados. As a matter of fact, picking Discharge over Thunderbolt is a much riskier choice in this situation since Thunderbolt gives you a very high chance to OHKO Mega Gyarados after a Substitute and Stealth Rock/2 sand turns while Discharge does not.
Perhaps though, a much better example would be Mega Altaria. Having removed your only Steel you now have no reliable Fairy resist. Mega Sableye, Volcarona, Hippowdon, Zapdos and Slowbro are setup bait and Clefable cannot take 2 Returns from an offensive version. It can also simply Roost off the damage once it's weakened and shrug off Zapdos' HP Ice. The team no longer has Clear Smog+ Sludge Bomb Amoonguss and Skarmory and has to pray that Stealth Rock isn't on the field.
Additionally, Hippowdon now has chances to die at full against Adamant Charizard X, and it's not that hard to setup on it. You have to sacrifice Mega Sableye in order to poison it and then hope to finish things with Slowbro, since a +1 Dragon Claw has a 69% chance to 2HKO Slowbro while neither Scald nor Psyshock 2HKO. Charizard also sets up quite easily on Zapdos, Clefable, and Volcarona.
Back to Discharge, there is another problem for this choice in that it doesn't even 3HKO Bulky SD Mega Scizor while a paralysis will mean that it cannot be burned by Mega Sableye. There is a connection between the majority of these threats, in that they are all setup sweepers that for the most part are able to take on Unaware Clefable and come out on top.
By the way, since I talked about Charizard X, earlier you mentioned how Mega Charizard Y can be checked by Hippowdon. However for it to be a reliable check, Charizard needs to be Timid and you must have Sandstorm on the field. However there is no real reason for Charizard to use Solar Beam against this team since Fire Blast still allows it to KO everything; even Slowbro after Stealth Rock is 2HKOed. The situation where Hippowdon can come in is only after Charizard has Mega evolved, which can be gained only if you use Protect on Clefable or sacrifice something earlier. If Charizard is Modest then Hippowdon after Stealth Rock has more than a nine out of ten chance to die from two Fire Blasts.
Speaking of other powerful special wallbreakers Mega Gardevoir remains a problem for this team, seeing as it no longer needs Taunt for Skarmory. Nothing on the team can still take it on as the only Fairy resist Volcarona can't do enough damage with Fiery Dance. Keep in mind this is only for Timid Mega Gardevoir; Modest would be much worse.
Now, as for changes, I wouldn't have removed the only Steel to be honest. I agree with your reasoning on Defog Skarmory, but removing the only Steel opens quite a lot of problems. I don't remember who but in round 2 someone posted an EV spread of unaware Clefable that helped against Thundurus, Life Orb Serperior and Ice beam from Kyurem-Black, I would consider it since as it stands there are still chances that Kyurem-B can 2hko Clefable, and the only two ice resist are either lacking in power and weak to Fusion Bolt, or rely on the removal of Stealth Rocks every time it comes in.
I would have also considered the option to give more speed to Zapdos. Earth Plate Landorus-T with SD can rip you apart quite easily and Bisharp remains a problem since Volcarona is the only one which can outspeed it. A coinflip between Sucker Punch and Knock Off every time is not something desirable. It's not as glaring a weakness like the other threats I mentioned (especially Hoopa-U, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard Y) but it's still problematic due to how Clefable and Slowbro are scared of it.
I must also ask: is Calm Mind Slowbro really necessary on this team? I'm saying this because Thunder Wave would surely help at not conceding too much momentum. For example, Clefable would love outspeeding Mega Altaria, just like Hippowdon with Mega Charizard X/Y at +0, and it would also help against Hoopa and Mega Gardevoir by not making Slowbro a complete fodder relying on luck. You stated it was a "win condition" but is it really worth it?
Overall, many congratulations for your ride Nedor! I vouch what IB said, you have done a good job and are one of the most promising Team Rater at the moment. It wouldn't be strange to see you get the badge soon.
Nah, just kidding. Don't let a long rate discourage you, sometimes it is required, and truthfully we can see how you are dedicated.
As promised, we'll make the rates for the Final public:
Nedor's rate shows us an important point. It has been discussed already but the team is slow even for a stall team by today's ORAS standards, effectively having no real "solid" backbone and giving the majority of wallbreakers and/or stallbreakers an easy time. The most important examples would be Tail Glow Manaphy, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Hoopa-U , LO Tornadus-T and Kyurem-Black. Setup sweepers are also problematic, the most glaring ones being SD Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Belly Drum Azumarill, Power up Punch Mega Lopunny and SD Mega Heracross.
Another important point is that this team has troubles on taking status moves. Specifically talking, the team by itself does not have many problems at tanking status moves, or Scalds, however there are two threats that can capitalize on this, being Rotom-W and SD/BU+Wow Talonflame. Especially if we look how Manaphy has an offensive EV spread, making it less durable in the long run.
With the threats established, Nedor suggests his first change, which is Zapdos over Skarmory. With this change the team has a Defogger that can now use attacking moves in order to scare threats. Zapdos also helps against Azumarill, Crawdaunt and Mega Pinsir in a single package.
The next change is Special Defensive Hippowdon over the current one, which allows Hippowdon to tank hits from threats like Thundurus, Mega Charizard-Y (if sand is present and Charizard is Timid), Life Orb Gengar and Mega Diancie better.
After this Nedor suggests switching Fake Out with Toxic in order to have a final measure to weaken Mega Charizard-Y if the situation requires it. Toxic also helps against threats that give Volcarona problems such as Talonflame and special defensive Mega Slowbro.
Lastly Nedor recommends WishTect Unaware Clefable over Amoonguss as an answer for setup sweepers such as Serperior, Hawlucha and Mega Lopunny.
Now then, before I go further let me state this: I'm not bad.. I'm just drawn that way.
First off you make an important point Nedor that the team is slow and passive, yet you remove the only member of the team capable of outspeeding Hoopa (not that Manaphy wins a 1v1 confrontation against Hoopa but at least it has chances if Hoopa has been weakened). Hippowdon's EV spread change also means that Life Orb Hoopa will 2HKO it. Furthermore Slowbro adds a Dark weakness and the only resist, Clefable, is defeated by Gunk Shot. Overall the suggested changes make Hoopa a much bigger problem for the team.
Having Clefable as an answer to setup sweepers is okay, however it makes the team even more passive. For example, Mega Gyarados now can easily setup a Substitute / Dragon Dance on Mega Sableye and Slowbro. Zapdos has problems if Stealth Rock and Sand are present, only have a very small 5% chance to avoid the 2HKO at +1. Discharge has to rely on the para (just like Mega Gyarados can hope for a flinch), since it cannot OHKO Mega Gyarados. As a matter of fact, picking Discharge over Thunderbolt is a much riskier choice in this situation since Thunderbolt gives you a very high chance to OHKO Mega Gyarados after a Substitute and Stealth Rock/2 sand turns while Discharge does not.
Perhaps though, a much better example would be Mega Altaria. Having removed your only Steel you now have no reliable Fairy resist. Mega Sableye, Volcarona, Hippowdon, Zapdos and Slowbro are setup bait and Clefable cannot take 2 Returns from an offensive version. It can also simply Roost off the damage once it's weakened and shrug off Zapdos' HP Ice. The team no longer has Clear Smog+ Sludge Bomb Amoonguss and Skarmory and has to pray that Stealth Rock isn't on the field.
Additionally, Hippowdon now has chances to die at full against Adamant Charizard X, and it's not that hard to setup on it. You have to sacrifice Mega Sableye in order to poison it and then hope to finish things with Slowbro, since a +1 Dragon Claw has a 69% chance to 2HKO Slowbro while neither Scald nor Psyshock 2HKO. Charizard also sets up quite easily on Zapdos, Clefable, and Volcarona.
Back to Discharge, there is another problem for this choice in that it doesn't even 3HKO Bulky SD Mega Scizor while a paralysis will mean that it cannot be burned by Mega Sableye. There is a connection between the majority of these threats, in that they are all setup sweepers that for the most part are able to take on Unaware Clefable and come out on top.
By the way, since I talked about Charizard X, earlier you mentioned how Mega Charizard Y can be checked by Hippowdon. However for it to be a reliable check, Charizard needs to be Timid and you must have Sandstorm on the field. However there is no real reason for Charizard to use Solar Beam against this team since Fire Blast still allows it to KO everything; even Slowbro after Stealth Rock is 2HKOed. The situation where Hippowdon can come in is only after Charizard has Mega evolved, which can be gained only if you use Protect on Clefable or sacrifice something earlier. If Charizard is Modest then Hippowdon after Stealth Rock has more than a nine out of ten chance to die from two Fire Blasts.
Speaking of other powerful special wallbreakers Mega Gardevoir remains a problem for this team, seeing as it no longer needs Taunt for Skarmory. Nothing on the team can still take it on as the only Fairy resist Volcarona can't do enough damage with Fiery Dance. Keep in mind this is only for Timid Mega Gardevoir; Modest would be much worse.
Now, as for changes, I wouldn't have removed the only Steel to be honest. I agree with your reasoning on Defog Skarmory, but removing the only Steel opens quite a lot of problems. I don't remember who but in round 2 someone posted an EV spread of unaware Clefable that helped against Thundurus, Life Orb Serperior and Ice beam from Kyurem-Black, I would consider it since as it stands there are still chances that Kyurem-B can 2hko Clefable, and the only two ice resist are either lacking in power and weak to Fusion Bolt, or rely on the removal of Stealth Rocks every time it comes in.
I would have also considered the option to give more speed to Zapdos. Earth Plate Landorus-T with SD can rip you apart quite easily and Bisharp remains a problem since Volcarona is the only one which can outspeed it. A coinflip between Sucker Punch and Knock Off every time is not something desirable. It's not as glaring a weakness like the other threats I mentioned (especially Hoopa-U, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard Y) but it's still problematic due to how Clefable and Slowbro are scared of it.
I must also ask: is Calm Mind Slowbro really necessary on this team? I'm saying this because Thunder Wave would surely help at not conceding too much momentum. For example, Clefable would love outspeeding Mega Altaria, just like Hippowdon with Mega Charizard X/Y at +0, and it would also help against Hoopa and Mega Gardevoir by not making Slowbro a complete fodder relying on luck. You stated it was a "win condition" but is it really worth it?
Overall, many congratulations for your ride Nedor! I vouch what IB said, you have done a good job and are one of the most promising Team Rater at the moment. It wouldn't be strange to see you get the badge soon.
To begin with I'd like to say I am not going to analyse the overview and what they said before the rate, both did a good job on that note.
Miridy starts by suggesting to change the Mega Evolution, which is not a usual change to make. Miridy proposed using HP Ice Mega Diancie and backed it up with solid reasoning: the first thing is how both Megas have the same ability, but they act pretty differently, Mega Diancie is a faster 'mon with a decent and useful Dark resistance, which the team lacked, and it helps a lot against Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Tornadus-T along with TBolt / HP Fire / CM Latios which is also troublesome since the team has just one Dragon resist. Then she talked about the Mega Charizard Y weaknesses, and how Mega Diancie con force out Charizard Y, Solar Beam still threat it as well, but now the team has a way to pressure it. And finally saying how much offensive momentum Mega Diancie provides instead of Mega Sableye. While Mega Diancie is a great 'mon and is able to cover most of the threats mentioned, and Miridy explained the change well, it is still quite frail and took away from the main core of the team.
The second change was making Skarmory specially defensive since Mega Venusaur is a huge threat to the team and only Manaphy after a Tail Glow boost would be able to KO it with Psychic. Special Defensive Skarmory with Brave Bird over Spikes helps to prevent it being setup fodder while still retaining impressive staying power. A pretty good point she chose to talk about is how most of Volcarona's checks have immunity to Spikes. The reasoning of Brave Bird is that it helps against Latios and Charizard after Stealth Rock, being able to damage them and having a chance to KO. It also allows Skarmory to check Mega Lopunny and Mega Venusaur more easily.
The third change was made to cover threats such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard, Talonflame, Life Orb Tornadus-T and Heatran. Since Skarmory is the only ground resist, and considering that it cannot do that much against them, such as Swords Dance Landorus-T and Excadrill, she suggested to switch out Manaphy for Rindo Berry Doubles Status Rotom-Wash.
Now Rindo Berry isn't a common item at all even though Rotom-Wash is only weak to Grass, but they are good reasons in this situation to consider this item. First thing is that Rotom can now avoid the 2HKO from a combination of Fire Blast and Solar Beam, and thanks to Thunder Wave Charizard-Y will be crippled that leaves it vulnerable to Rotom-W's Hydro Pump or Volt Switch. Rindo Berry also allows Rotom can tank a +3 Energy Ball from Manaphy, TWave it and then proceed to Volt Switch to Amoonguss. Rindo also helps against lure sets like Solar Beam Heatran or Liechi Berry Talonflame.
Miridy also suggested a Double Status Rotom-Wash by forgoing Pain Split. This change helps out againt Belly Drum Azumarill, and while it's true that Amoonguss stops Azumarill it is usually KOed by a +6 Knock Off. There are also many situations that Azumarill can setup a Drum and then sweep, for example, against Volcarona, Hippowdon, or Manaphy. Rotom-W can also now outspeed and burn Crawdaunt and Adamant Bisharp or finish them off with Volt Switch if weakened sufficiently. Overall though Rindo Berry Rotom-W with no recovery lacks staying power, so even though it gains a lot of offensive momentum and Thunder Wave may help the team for sure, the change still has its cons.
As a last change she considered support Swords Dance Landorus-T over Hippowdon since opposing Landorus become troublesome with Rotom-W lacking recovery and Skarmory being switched out for a SpD version. She talked about a previous point, which is Hidden Power Ice Diancie, explaining how it helps against Gliscor since the Rotom-W changes make the team a weaker to it. HP Ice also helps in early game against Defensive Landorus-T, having a 75% chance to OHKO. She continued explaining the Landorus-T change and how Power Up Punch Mega Lopunny might be consider a problem and not well check by Hippowdon. Landorus-T provides a solid check to it and Mega Charizard X as well. Swords Dance over Stone Edge because it's not needed that much since now the team has Mega Diancie, Brave Bird Skarmory and Rotom-W, and Swords Dance helps against Tank Chomp, Slowbro, Mew, and Mega Venusaur. Knock Off in particular helps against bulky Psychic-types such as CM Reuniclus, Slowbro, Defensive Mega Latias, Slowking. As a last thing she added an overview against huge threats and how the team should work against them.
Our honest opinion on that rate was that she overthought it. While the changes were good they still could've been better and less drastic. Snowy will make a post soon that describes the hosts' own thoughts on how the team could've been improved.
Lastly I'd like to thank everyone who participated, the hosts and the finalists, you guys are actually 2 of the most high quality non official team raters. Both of you made great analyses and rates, good job again and congrats!
Miridy starts by suggesting to change the Mega Evolution, which is not a usual change to make. Miridy proposed using HP Ice Mega Diancie and backed it up with solid reasoning: the first thing is how both Megas have the same ability, but they act pretty differently, Mega Diancie is a faster 'mon with a decent and useful Dark resistance, which the team lacked, and it helps a lot against Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Tornadus-T along with TBolt / HP Fire / CM Latios which is also troublesome since the team has just one Dragon resist. Then she talked about the Mega Charizard Y weaknesses, and how Mega Diancie con force out Charizard Y, Solar Beam still threat it as well, but now the team has a way to pressure it. And finally saying how much offensive momentum Mega Diancie provides instead of Mega Sableye. While Mega Diancie is a great 'mon and is able to cover most of the threats mentioned, and Miridy explained the change well, it is still quite frail and took away from the main core of the team.
The second change was making Skarmory specially defensive since Mega Venusaur is a huge threat to the team and only Manaphy after a Tail Glow boost would be able to KO it with Psychic. Special Defensive Skarmory with Brave Bird over Spikes helps to prevent it being setup fodder while still retaining impressive staying power. A pretty good point she chose to talk about is how most of Volcarona's checks have immunity to Spikes. The reasoning of Brave Bird is that it helps against Latios and Charizard after Stealth Rock, being able to damage them and having a chance to KO. It also allows Skarmory to check Mega Lopunny and Mega Venusaur more easily.
The third change was made to cover threats such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard, Talonflame, Life Orb Tornadus-T and Heatran. Since Skarmory is the only ground resist, and considering that it cannot do that much against them, such as Swords Dance Landorus-T and Excadrill, she suggested to switch out Manaphy for Rindo Berry Doubles Status Rotom-Wash.
Now Rindo Berry isn't a common item at all even though Rotom-Wash is only weak to Grass, but they are good reasons in this situation to consider this item. First thing is that Rotom can now avoid the 2HKO from a combination of Fire Blast and Solar Beam, and thanks to Thunder Wave Charizard-Y will be crippled that leaves it vulnerable to Rotom-W's Hydro Pump or Volt Switch. Rindo Berry also allows Rotom can tank a +3 Energy Ball from Manaphy, TWave it and then proceed to Volt Switch to Amoonguss. Rindo also helps against lure sets like Solar Beam Heatran or Liechi Berry Talonflame.
Miridy also suggested a Double Status Rotom-Wash by forgoing Pain Split. This change helps out againt Belly Drum Azumarill, and while it's true that Amoonguss stops Azumarill it is usually KOed by a +6 Knock Off. There are also many situations that Azumarill can setup a Drum and then sweep, for example, against Volcarona, Hippowdon, or Manaphy. Rotom-W can also now outspeed and burn Crawdaunt and Adamant Bisharp or finish them off with Volt Switch if weakened sufficiently. Overall though Rindo Berry Rotom-W with no recovery lacks staying power, so even though it gains a lot of offensive momentum and Thunder Wave may help the team for sure, the change still has its cons.
As a last change she considered support Swords Dance Landorus-T over Hippowdon since opposing Landorus become troublesome with Rotom-W lacking recovery and Skarmory being switched out for a SpD version. She talked about a previous point, which is Hidden Power Ice Diancie, explaining how it helps against Gliscor since the Rotom-W changes make the team a weaker to it. HP Ice also helps in early game against Defensive Landorus-T, having a 75% chance to OHKO. She continued explaining the Landorus-T change and how Power Up Punch Mega Lopunny might be consider a problem and not well check by Hippowdon. Landorus-T provides a solid check to it and Mega Charizard X as well. Swords Dance over Stone Edge because it's not needed that much since now the team has Mega Diancie, Brave Bird Skarmory and Rotom-W, and Swords Dance helps against Tank Chomp, Slowbro, Mew, and Mega Venusaur. Knock Off in particular helps against bulky Psychic-types such as CM Reuniclus, Slowbro, Defensive Mega Latias, Slowking. As a last thing she added an overview against huge threats and how the team should work against them.
Our honest opinion on that rate was that she overthought it. While the changes were good they still could've been better and less drastic. Snowy will make a post soon that describes the hosts' own thoughts on how the team could've been improved.
Lastly I'd like to thank everyone who participated, the hosts and the finalists, you guys are actually 2 of the most high quality non official team raters. Both of you made great analyses and rates, good job again and congrats!
- Status