Other OU Theorymon [Revamped]

[Peef Rimgar]

So, chansey/Avalugg core going to absolutely destroy every offensive team Ive ever used? Yep, I'm definitely quitting

Bring your Mixed Infernapes, hide your kids.

This slate is gonna be a "which stall is better" competition between Avalugg and Weezing imo. On one hand, we have a super reliable hazard clearer with hella defense and recovery but piss SpDef, on the other we have a great mixed wall with superb typing but no recovery.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

lol

Keldeo beats both; you should be fine.

Fine, chansey/Avalugg/MVenusaur

This is basically a scarier skarmory, a much scarier skarmory.

 

[Chronobreak]

Fine, chansey/Avalugg/MVenusaur

This is basically a scarier skarmory, a much scarier skarmory.

Hp psychic keldeo new meta lol
Edit: Or flying!

 

[Aragorn the King]

Hp psychic keldeo new meta lol

Well HP Flying is actually already common on Keldeo. I think it's used > hp Psychic for the better IVs, but idk really.

anyway Hp flying helps with Venu, but it's a) not a spamable move and b) keld still loses 1v1 to Venu.

:)

 

[Chronobreak]

Well HP Flying is actually already common on Keldeo. I think it's used > hp Psychic for the better IVs, but idk really.

anyway Hp flying helps with Venu, but it's a) not a spamable move and b) keld still loses 1v1 to Venu.

:)

Yeah, makes sense, just said mostly for the lolz but yeah, neither are a great option.

More of topic, but ChansLugg core will be unbreakable bar keldeo, which is going to require more taunt + 3 attacks if it gets voted in.

 

[Red Cat]

Can we just end the discussion and vote for Steel Avalugg already?

 

[Dilasc]

Can we just end the discussion and vote for Steel Avalugg already?

If Avalugg is as over-centralizing as you fear, would it be a good idea to vote for something that'll probably see a suspect test it might not pass?

I'm not even saying this as the one who suggested Steel Weezing either.

 

[Yayz]

I'm super duper hyped for Steel Avalugg. Avalugg is one of my favorite Pokes and seeing it in PU makes me pretty sad. It's amazing how a type can make or break a Pokemon. Steel typing doesn't hurt it at all, as it has Gyro Ball and 28 base speed.

Basically, a set of Recover / Gyro Ball / Rapid Spin / (Roar or Toxic or something) would be awesome, with maximum Special investment so it doesn't die to a breath of air, or maximum physical bulk because to heck with physical attackers, that's why.

However, given that everyone's gonna be talking about Avalugg I'll give some others some love.

Nasty Plot Tornadus-T is pretty cool too. With access to Regenerator, high speed, and reasonable bulk, it'll be difficult to take this guy down. He also has access to Focus Blast, which allows him to do this:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 385-455 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's pretty sweet. He also gets Knock-Off, just in case you really hate Chansey. U-Turn is also really good with Regenerator as we all know, and it can be used to wear down his counters... which, I'm not sure what they would be now.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 398-468 (109.3 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 471-554 (122.3 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't play on Showdown as much as I should, so let me know what special walls I'm obviously missing. Anyway, Flying/Fighting is actually pretty good coverage, and Tornadus-T has the speed and bulk to probably pull this off really well.

Intimidate Milotic is a pretty good physical wall, with access to recovery, phazing, and scald. It's also got a nice Bulky Water typing, leaving it with few weaknesses. Also, check it out:

252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

No -1 because of Dragon Dance. It allows it to counter physical threats much, much better than it could before.

However.

+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 180-212 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I know I said I wouldn't talk about Avalugg, but I just don't see a reason not to run it over Milotic. The big thing it can't do that Milotic can is potentially burn thanks to Scald; in return, it can get rid of hazards.

Poison/Steel Weezing is cool too, and the main problem I have with it is its lack of reliable recovery. Fortunately, its physical bulk is further buffed by its use of Will-O-Wisp, allowing it to tank hits like nobody's business. Levitate is also phenomenal with Poison/Steel typing, leaving it with a weakness to Fire, and... That's it, I think. Sadly, Fire-types are the one thing it can't burn, so that kinda sucks. But really.

+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

That's awesome.

Great slate this week. I'm not actually sure which one I prefer! I'm biased towards Avalugg because it's cool, but Tornadus-T has some serious wallbreaking and sweeping capabilities.

 

[Sun King]

So Intimidate on Milotic is cool and all because it gives you the Defense boost right off the bat, but it kind of defeats the purpose of Milotic in the first place. Marvel Scale lets Milotic become an all-around status absorber; Milotic is literally one of the best switch ins to Scald out there (barring water immunities). Also, removing Marvel Scale means that Milotic can no longer counter Keldeo--honestly one of the main reasons to use it IMO. Intimidate is a step down in viability in my opinion.

NP Torn-T…So I'm not going to add much to what has already been said, but I'd like to point out that it's still a high risk/high reward mon--the accuracy of its moves will always be the thing making/breaking Torn-T. Agreed--the extra power is very nice, and could increase its viability. I just think that it's going to continue to be an inconsistent force in the metagame unless Rain starts to take off again.

Steel Avalugg is basically Avalugg but it now resists a bunch of stuff. Its weaknesses are hilariously the same except for Rock, and now it's weak to Ground. I guess it's comparable to Mega Aggron, but with recovery and Rapid Spin. I'd say it'll definitely climb up in viability because of its practicality on stall. On second thought it's pretty comparable to Skarmory; even if it's not weak to Electric, any special attack is known to make Avalugg crumble anyways, so nothing new on that front. I'd say this one probably changes the metagame the most out of this slate.

Poison/Steel Weezing is alright I guess??? Idk, I'm seeing a trend on this slate…Whatever--it's nice that it has Levitate to circumvent the 4x Ground weakness, and it resists a ton more stuff, but idk if it'll really be that much better because it still has to rely on Pain Split, and it's still only good for tanking physical hits and retaliating with a WoW. Pretty boring submission if you ask me.

EDIT:

Bring your Mixed Infernapes, hide your kids.

This slate is gonna be a "which stall is better" competition between Avalugg and Weezing imo. On one hand, we have a super reliable hazard clearer with hella defense and recovery but piss SpDef, on the other we have a great mixed wall with superb typing but no recovery.

As an avid stall player, I can promise you that Avalugg has more to offer than Weezing. Rapid Spin>Defog, which means Avalugg will probably replace Skarmory on a lot of teams. It's simply going to make a much, much bigger splash. Weezing, on the other hand, is going to be one of the things that takes up the "filler" slot on stall teams. It'll be that, "Oh shit I need a way to burn things because my physical core is ass" mon.

 

[QueenOfHax]

Those changes should at the very least not contradict flavor.

Steel Avalugg makes no sense flavor-wise, I would suggest retyping it into Ice/Steel. While having a few less resistances, it keeps the exact same weaknesses (it's not like you were keeping mono-Steel Avalugg into a fire or fighting type anyways, so the 4x weakness to these won't matter much) and has a very useful STAB to abuse.

 

[Valmanway]

Steel Avalugg makes no sense flavor-wise, I would suggest retyping it into Ice/Steel. While having a few less resistances, it keeps the exact same weaknesses (it's not like you were keeping mono-Steel Avalugg into a fire or fighting type anyways, so the 4x weakness to these won't matter much) and has a very useful STAB to abuse.

Its ice-covered body is as hard as steel.

I thought it could work.

 

[Pyritie]

Steel Avalugg makes no sense flavor-wise, I would suggest retyping it into Ice/Steel. While having a few less resistances, it keeps the exact same weaknesses (it's not like you were keeping mono-Steel Avalugg into a fire or fighting type anyways, so the 4x weakness to these won't matter much) and has a very useful STAB to abuse.

Seconding. Steel avalugg pretty much outclasses every single other physically defensive steel type out there and I think it might be too good. It's got everything a wall needs (status, phasing, a decent offensive stat, hazard removal, recovery) besides a good typing, and by making it steel-type, there is no reason to use anything else.

I mean regular avalugg is top tier in inverse and it's only got four resistances there!

 

[Salemance]

First time actually participating in this thread, here goes o3o

Nasty Plot Tornadus-T- Seems like a cool idea. With tornadus's awesome coverage, speed, and decent bulk, nasty plot is definitely a move it has been begging for. However, tornadus-T has some competition with thundurus as a quick nasty plotter due to lacking an electric STAB and a weaker main STAB in air slash, but its speed does allow it to outrun gengar and... more stuff idk. Also, since regenerator allows it to come in and out of the match easily, it would be able to consistently set up nasty plots and possibly force switch-ins to prevent a nasty plot. A solid choice, but damn, i want weezing o-o

Steel Avalugg Steel typing... Definitely allows avalugg to rapid spin a lot more efficiently. Losing the ice typing allows it to go from one resistance to a whopping 10! Does have some merit over some other spinners like excadrill due to its access to recover. It also isn't too shabby offensively either, with gyro ball to back up its solid 117 attack stat. It may need some support because of its abysmal special defense stat, but worth seeing imo.

Intimidate Milotic Kinda lackluster imo... Doesn't really have the resistances to switch into physical attacks as well tbh. Scald + Recover paired with this could be pretty annoying however. Not too sure what to think about Milotic, but i guess it could do decently, being even more bulky af.

Poison/Steel Weezing This. I. Want. This. Weezing receives many needed resistances which allow it to wall some of OU's biggest threats and WoW in return. Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel... just oml. Dragonite, Tyranitar, Scizor, Mamoswine, Diggersby, Salamence, and Pinsir-Mega! Weezing, however, still suffers from the lack of reliable recovery unless you like pain split. The Steel typing helps with this somewhat, allowing it to switch on threats without worrying about being worn down by hazards. Really seems like a cool choice, just kinda wondering why it would be steel type though.

The idea behind Poison/Steel Weezing is that, it is basically a floating landmine. :D


And yah, it seems like its Poison Heal Snorlax all over again.........

 

[hadonusee]

Nasty Plot Torn-T and Intimidate Milotic are both interesting, but neither really gains much since Torn-T is a fast scout with Regenerator and has 3 common weaknesses and no priority to set up and sweep, Milotic already had a pretty awesome ability in marvel scale.

A mono steel type with more def at 0 EV than Skarm at 252 EV!?. And it has recovery, rapid spin and a usable 117 base attack!? Awesome. It's special def is rather depresing, but it pairs well with many specially defensive pokemon typing wise, togekiss in particular can cover 2 of the 3 weaknesses and there will always be bulky waters who can stomach a fire blast or two. Steel Avalugg really should keep it's ice typing though, since it's dex entry in X specifically states that it has a ice-covered body.

Poison/Steel Weezing will have the following type match ups:

• Immunity: Ground(Levitate), Poison
• 1/4 resistance: Bug, Fairy, Grass
• 1/2 resistance: Dragon, Flying, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel
• Neutral: Psychic, Fighting, Electric, Water, Dark, Ghost
• 2x Weakness: Fire

i.e. Typing wise Weezing is now Gen IV Bronzong but in Gen VI and with a better set of 1/4 resists along with fun things like wilo-o-wisp, taunt, fire blast, pain split and toxic spikes (sadly no rocks). It walls a fair amount of OU physical attackers including Azumarill, Breloom, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor and pretty much anything that relies on Edgequake (except mold breaker exca), but it's frail on the special side and dosn't get reliable recovery.

In short Steel Avalugg is now the great wall of OU and all around a better mega Aggron in both utility and walling capabilities; Poison/Steel Weezing is Rotom-W and Skarm rolled into one neat support mon; Nasty Plot Torn-T is meh, might as well use Thundy if regenerator isn't any help to you. Intimidate Milotic is neat on paper but now lacks physical def should a physical attacker switches into milotic.

 

[Dilasc]

Even if Avalugg were Ice/Steel, it's defensively impressive.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ice/Steel Avalugg: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Weezing won't have room for Tspikes. In fact, most of the things he checks would not mind getting poisoned if it means he cannot burn away their sweeping potential.

What you really do is this:

Turn 1
-Foe sends out Pinsir

Turn 2
-Go Weezing
-Pinsir goes mega and sets up a Sword's Dance

Turn 3
- +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 156-185 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-Pinsir gets burnt, or it switched out because he knows the above formula above.

Mold Breaker Pinsirs might even be hesitant to go mega with Weezing around... but I doubt the tradeoff is worth the gimped mon.

 

[Sun King]

Nasty Plot Torn-T and Intimidate Milotic are both interesting, but neither really gains much since Torn-T is a fast scout with Regenerator and has 3 common weaknesses and no priority to set up and sweep, Milotic already had a pretty awesome ability in marvel scale.

A mono steel type with more def at 0 EV than Skarm at 252 EV!?. And it has recovery, rapid spin and a usable 117 base attack!? Awesome. It's special def is rather depresing, but it pairs well with many specially defensive pokemon typing wise, togekiss in particular can cover 2 of the 3 weaknesses and there will always be bulky waters who can stomach a fire blast or two. Steel Avalugg really should keep it's ice typing though, since it's dex entry in X specifically states that it has a ice-covered body.

Poison/Steel Weezing will have the following type match ups:

• Immunity: Ground(Levitate), Poison
• 1/4 resistance: Bug, Fairy, Grass
• 1/2 resistance: Dragon, Flying, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel
• Neutral: Psychic, Fighting, Electric, Water, Dark, Ghost
• 2x Weakness: Fire

i.e. Typing wise Weezing is now Gen IV Bronzong but in Gen VI and with a better set of 1/4 resists along with fun things like wilo-o-wisp, taunt, fire blast, pain split and toxic spikes (sadly no rocks). It walls a fair amount of OU physical attackers including Azumarill, Breloom, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor and pretty much anything that relies on Edgequake (except mold breaker exca), but it's frail on the special side and dosn't get reliable recovery.

In short Steel Avalugg is now the great wall of OU and all around a better mega Aggron in both utility and walling capabilities; Poison/Steel Weezing is Rotom-W and Skarm rolled into one neat support mon; Nasty Plot Torn-T is meh, might as well use Thundy if regenerator isn't any help to you. Intimidate Milotic is neat on paper but now lacks physical def should a physical attacker switches into milotic.

I more or less agree with most of this, but Steel Avalugg is more analogous to Skarmory than it is Mega Aggron, and it is more similar to Skarm than Steel/Poison Weezing.

Skarmory's duties are to
1.) Defog
2.) Wall the physical metagame to hell and back
3.) Lay hazards if you chose that set.
4.) Taunt enemy supporters/Set up sweepers

Skarmory's move set assets:
-Roost
-Taunt
-Stealth Rocks/Spikes
-Whirlwind
BULK: 65 HP/ 140 Def

Now--let's look at Steel Avalugg's duties.
1.) Rapid Spin
2.) Wall the physical metagame to hell and back
Avalugg's move set assets:
-Recover
-Rapid Spin
-Roar
-Earthquake/ Gyro Ball/ Rock Slide coming from 117 Base Attack
BULK:95 HP/ 184 Def

And Poison/Steel Weezing...
1.) Tank Physical hits (cannot wall without reliable recovery)
2.) Spread burns
Weezing's move set assets:
-Will o Wisp
-Clear Smog/Haze
-Toxic Spikes
-Destiny Bond
BULK: 60HP/ 120 Def

Let's take it a step further. I'm going to throw Weezing out of the discussion because it does not share roles with the other two. Skarmory can perform more duties than Avalugg, however, it cannot do them all at once. For that, I'll give Skarmory a point for role versatility. Avalugg, however, has far superior bulk; Avalugg gets a point for walling capabilities. Now, let's look at hazard removal. In XY OU, Rapid Spin > Defog. There are more taunters/Bisharps running around than ghosts. The only ghosts being run are Gengar and the rare Sableye. Hazard removal point goes to Avalugg.

Final score Skarmory 1/ Avalugg 2.

Avalugg simply does a better job at the duties it shares with Skamory.

 

[Valmanway]

Okay, so can we change Avalugg to Ice / Steel, Salemance ? Plenty of people want the change, and I do agree with them.

 

[Salemance]

I see no problems with it as I really ditest one Mon being stronger than the others in such ridiculous fashion. Either delete it or make it dual typed is what ill ask of y'all since it could potentially just make it a bad theorymon from a good one.

For now it will be Ice/Steelunless y'all feel otherwise.

 

[Red Cat]

I see no problems with it as I really ditest one Mon being stronger than the others in such ridiculous fashion. Either delete it or make it dual typed is what ill ask of y'all since it could potentially just make it a bad theorymon from a good one.

For now it will be Ice/Steelunless y'all feel otherwise.

I'd prefer it to just be Steel Avalugg since the Ice type has zero positives for Avalugg. Tornadus-T and Milotic wouldn't be that great on any slate, so I'm against bringing Avalugg down just because they aren't that good. I think Weezing is being underrated because of all the attention on Avalugg, but we have the second chance round for good Theorymons which happen to be overshadowed by better Theorymons, so I'd leave Avalugg as pure Steel typing to maximize its potential. One of the things which annoyed me about the previous Theorymon thread was the half-assed Theorymons which were just a little better, but not that good overall. I like huge upgrades like changing Avalugg to pure Steel type and getting rid of the stupid Ice type entirely.

 

[Dilasc]

The big thing is, that I remember last go at the thread under the first take of theorymon was a rule that primary types couldn't change: ice is its primary type.

It shut down ideas like Fight/Flying Braviary or Fight/Ghost Golurk.

When you're known as the Iceberg Pokemon, it's a bit counter-intuitive not to be ice.

Even with ice's holdback, as I posted before, you could still take a decent number of hits.

Actually, if Avalugg was always Ice/Steel, I'd have been suggested Metal Burst or Counter to kill smug Conkeldurrs who think they can punch you down.

 

[Salemance]

Believe me Red Cat I understand which is why I'm bringing the issue up instead of just asking. I myslef love the idea of Wheezing being a floating landmine and want it to have good shot but I'd Mike healthy options overall instead of making the slate worse.

And to Dilasc there are fighting type attacks stronger and far more relevant in the OU tier than Conk's Drain punch.

Truth be told I adore the idea of all of them and will post my thoughts when I get home.

 

[Sun King]

I totally understand keeping Avalugg ice for flavor reasons, but I'd like to point out how much worse it gets with keeping that. Ice and Steel share 2 weaknesses; that is--when combined, they produce 2 4x weaknesses: Fire and Fighting. Because both of those are fairly common, Avalugg is going to be a lot more niche. It can no longer counter Mega Pinsir, as it's completely obliterated by a +2 Close Combat (and I'm assuming SR are down). Which leads me to my next point. Mono Steel typing meant that it could recover the SR damage with Leftovers, meaning it could switch in on a predicted boosting move and retaliate next turn with Sturdy to act as a Focus Sash. Overall, the number of things that now threaten Avalugg (be it coverage or just the common fire or fighting STAB) increase the opportunity cost of using over Skarmory significantly.

The only reason I would use Steel/Ice Avalugg would be Rapid Spin.

EDIT: I think it makes sense to have some of our slated things be major, metagame shifting changes. It is through these shifts that we best understand how each component of the metagame interacts and we learn about some of the hidden, yet defining elements of the metagame as it is.

 

[Skankovich]

I'd normally be ok with bending flavour, like poison/steel weezing, but literally removing the ice typing from the iceberg pokemon is going beyond bending tbh. It's clearly an ice type mon, and we may as well work around it.

 

[SirSkit]

Ice/Steel Avalugg... Although i do agree with keeping the ice typing to improve it flavor-wise, it kinda just makes this theorymon pretty mediocre, or, at least, not the awesome wall that pure steel avalugg would've been.

Before people start forgetting about it and vote for weezing, it may have some nice qualities. The steel typing still allows it to have some use, getting the resistances its really been needing, as well as making it neutral to the rocks it needs to spin out. It also provides a nice immunity to toxic which any wall just dreads.

However, although steel is an awesome type for a bulky spinner and walls in general, ice typing is just a curse on pretty much any defensive mon. The Fire/Fighting weakness that ice brings cripples poor avalugg so much, as well as preventing it from resisting stealth rock. Ice typing is really only good for the nice offensive STAB it provides, but avalugg can't really capitalize on that aspect well... Perhaps a STAB avalanche would be useful for handling threats like Dragonite, Salamence, spinblockers, or ground/rock types trying to lay hazards down.

At the moment, I'm not liking Ice/Steel Avalugg. The Steel typing does patch up a few problems, but Avalugg still has too many flaws that keep it from being efficient at its job. I would like someone to prove me wrong though, since Avalugg is a cool pokemon and deserves being revived from the depths of PU.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I'd normally be ok with bending flavour, like poison/steel weezing, but literally removing the ice typing from the iceberg pokemon is going beyond bending tbh. It's clearly an ice type mon, and we may as well work around it.

I totally agree. I feel obligated to object to Steel-type Avalugg because it makes absolutely no sense flavor-wise. It's a mindless buff, just as if someone suggested Ice/Electric Porygon-Z.