Virizion + Trace
Honorable Mention: Weak Armor Mega Garchomp
Honorable Mention: Weak Armor Mega Garchomp
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Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
- Start date
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You have to vote for something else for honourable mention, as Bug/Ground Beedrill is already official. Have fun!!!!
Sorry, not to post off-subject, but how long is this vote going to be open??? I assumed it would close long ago...
If we let it go for another week then Sunking's legacy can be his famous 1 month slate.
#keepthedreamaliveamirite
#keepthedreamaliveamirite
.....no. Just why? Delay is probably as it always is on just needing to decide what for the next slate. Dont bring pound signs into this
Alright, apologies for the delay, but please, don't rush us. It just adds more stress that we really don't need. We understand that certain slates may take a little bit longer, but that's the way life works. Thanks. :)
Anyways, this slate's winner is, by a clear majority:
Virizion + Trace!
The votes went as follow:
Shift Gear Lucario: 9
Trace Virizion: 55 (o.o)
Magma Storm Rotom-H: 0
Fairy-type Blissey: 3
And this week, we have not one, but two honorable mentions joining us!
+ Poison Heal
+ Dragon Dance
The new slate is:
+ Dragon Dance (Credit to Salemance )
+ Electric / Dark typing (Credit to Dratios )
+ Fire / Normal typing and Swords Dance (Credit to Pappali the Piper )
+ Dragon / Ghost and Analytic
Have fun discussing and good luck to all submissions!!
Anyways, this slate's winner is, by a clear majority:
The votes went as follow:
Shift Gear Lucario: 9
Trace Virizion: 55 (o.o)
Magma Storm Rotom-H: 0
Fairy-type Blissey: 3
And this week, we have not one, but two honorable mentions joining us!
The new slate is:
Have fun discussing and good luck to all submissions!!
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Arcanine seems a real threat now that it has STAB ExtremeSpeed and Swords Dance similar to Arceus in Uber. It has great bulk and resistances that allows it to set up a Swords Dance.
I can see this being a moveset for it:
Arcanine @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat/Morning Sun
some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 363-426 (118.2 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 304-359 (91.2 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
With Intimidate, it can set up against OU's top set-up sweepers and proceed to spam ExtremeSpeed or use its powerful coverage moves. It can also use Flash Fire and counter Mega Charizard Y.
Luxray + Dragon Dance: We already have Tyranitar, CharX, Altaria, Gyarados, Dragonite, and Feraligatr as viable Dragon Dancers. Guts is a cool ability for a Ddancer, but when its best STAB attack has recoil, its ability to really absorb status probably isn't as good as it seems at first glance. I dunno. I'm not feeling it. Is there a demand for this kind of Pokemon in teambuilding?
Thundurus-T + Electric/Dark typing: This is a bit more interesting to me, because I like Thundurus-Therian and Electric/Dark hasn't been done before. It now doesn't have to run Hidden Power for STAB, and it obviously handles bulky Psychic-types not named Slowbro/king better. I dunno. Electric/Dark is also a noticeably worse defensive typing, boasting four common weaknesses, including U-Turn, which limits what I imagine was pretty good utility against Volt-Turn teams. Thundurus-Incarnate can OHKO it with Focus Blast now. I understand that it's primarily an offensive Pokemon, but it's not fast or bulky enough to make defensive typing unimportant.
Arcanine + Fire/Normal typing and Swords Dance: Okay, okay, we get it. STAB Extreme Speed is cool and Ekiller is cool. STAB Extreme Speed with Swords Dance is also cancer and one of OU's saving graces is not having Espeed spam. I don't care for this at all. This would probably help defense (which is cool) by virtue of overcentralizing offense around not dying to the inevitable +2 Extreme Speed backed up by Intimidate and great coverage, but I'd much rather do that by giving new tools to defense than by putting heavy limits on offense's tools. Not to mention that Arcanine is a really unique and interesting Pokemon that could be theorymonned into something a lot cooler.
Mega Latios + Dragon/Ghost typing and Analytic: Hhhhhuh. Defensively, it loses a Bug weakness and a Psychic resistance, and is now flatly immune to Normal-type moves, which could actually be pretty useful. Losing Levitate, I think, might be deceptively unfortunate -- I'm not sure. No STAB on Psyshock means more difficulty with Special walls... probably. On the offensive side, Analytic would obviously make this exceptionally difficult to switch into. The number of Mega Pokemon that Latios pairs well with makes me skeptical that this will really overcome the opportunity cost of your mega slot.
Frankly, at first glance I don't care for anything on this slate, and will probably end up voting for whatever looks best positioned to unseat a frontrunning Arcanine. If that's not an issue... I dunno, Luxray I guess, can't hurt much.
Thundurus-T + Electric/Dark typing: This is a bit more interesting to me, because I like Thundurus-Therian and Electric/Dark hasn't been done before. It now doesn't have to run Hidden Power for STAB, and it obviously handles bulky Psychic-types not named Slowbro/king better. I dunno. Electric/Dark is also a noticeably worse defensive typing, boasting four common weaknesses, including U-Turn, which limits what I imagine was pretty good utility against Volt-Turn teams. Thundurus-Incarnate can OHKO it with Focus Blast now. I understand that it's primarily an offensive Pokemon, but it's not fast or bulky enough to make defensive typing unimportant.
Arcanine + Fire/Normal typing and Swords Dance: Okay, okay, we get it. STAB Extreme Speed is cool and Ekiller is cool. STAB Extreme Speed with Swords Dance is also cancer and one of OU's saving graces is not having Espeed spam. I don't care for this at all. This would probably help defense (which is cool) by virtue of overcentralizing offense around not dying to the inevitable +2 Extreme Speed backed up by Intimidate and great coverage, but I'd much rather do that by giving new tools to defense than by putting heavy limits on offense's tools. Not to mention that Arcanine is a really unique and interesting Pokemon that could be theorymonned into something a lot cooler.
Mega Latios + Dragon/Ghost typing and Analytic: Hhhhhuh. Defensively, it loses a Bug weakness and a Psychic resistance, and is now flatly immune to Normal-type moves, which could actually be pretty useful. Losing Levitate, I think, might be deceptively unfortunate -- I'm not sure. No STAB on Psyshock means more difficulty with Special walls... probably. On the offensive side, Analytic would obviously make this exceptionally difficult to switch into. The number of Mega Pokemon that Latios pairs well with makes me skeptical that this will really overcome the opportunity cost of your mega slot.
Frankly, at first glance I don't care for anything on this slate, and will probably end up voting for whatever looks best positioned to unseat a frontrunning Arcanine. If that's not an issue... I dunno, Luxray I guess, can't hurt much.
This looks like a pretty neat slate, but right now I'm just going to post something on dragon dance Luxray.
I, like most people, like Luxray and wish he was a viable mon to use, but man is it hard to make him even decent. When I first saw Dragon Dance Luxray I thought someone might have done it this time, but I'm still not feeling this. Intimidate is a great ability for a setup sweeper, and a guts dragon dancer is a pretty cool niche, but Luxray still has too many flaws. First off his base 70 speed means that even at plus 1 with jolly he still gets outsped by Mega Lopunny and pretty much every scarfer. (It's really late and I did the math in my head, please don't bite my head off if I'm wrong) Secondly, while Guts boosts his power, it also kills his suvivability, especially since his only STAB move cause recoil damage. These problems wouldn't be to bad if we didn't have a ton of other viable dragon dancers in the tier. Why would I want to build my team around this when I could use someone like CharizardX or Mega Altaria?
+1 252 Atk Guts Luxray Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 226-267 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 273-322 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Charizard can afford to run Adamant if it wants too)
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 202-238 (48 - 56.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Altaria can also run Adamant)
Both those mons have reliable recovery and great defensive typings too. I know it's not fair to compare ole Lux to two S ranked mons, but I can't really see any use for this. I will admit that a guts Facade hurts, so if anything Luxray can wallbreak now, but Swords Dance would have been a better option for that...
Also I'm super tired as I'm posting this so sorry if anything doesn't make sense.
I, like most people, like Luxray and wish he was a viable mon to use, but man is it hard to make him even decent. When I first saw Dragon Dance Luxray I thought someone might have done it this time, but I'm still not feeling this. Intimidate is a great ability for a setup sweeper, and a guts dragon dancer is a pretty cool niche, but Luxray still has too many flaws. First off his base 70 speed means that even at plus 1 with jolly he still gets outsped by Mega Lopunny and pretty much every scarfer. (It's really late and I did the math in my head, please don't bite my head off if I'm wrong) Secondly, while Guts boosts his power, it also kills his suvivability, especially since his only STAB move cause recoil damage. These problems wouldn't be to bad if we didn't have a ton of other viable dragon dancers in the tier. Why would I want to build my team around this when I could use someone like CharizardX or Mega Altaria?
+1 252 Atk Guts Luxray Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 226-267 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 273-322 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Charizard can afford to run Adamant if it wants too)
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 202-238 (48 - 56.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Altaria can also run Adamant)
Both those mons have reliable recovery and great defensive typings too. I know it's not fair to compare ole Lux to two S ranked mons, but I can't really see any use for this. I will admit that a guts Facade hurts, so if anything Luxray can wallbreak now, but Swords Dance would have been a better option for that...
Also I'm super tired as I'm posting this so sorry if anything doesn't make sense.
Looks like a pretty interesting slate! Time to break it down.
Luxray + DD: Hmph. Interesting, to say the least. I'm sure Intimidate forces switches and allows you to DD, and Akumeoy took care of all the issues with Guts. Unless, of course, you run Spark. It's also rather slow; at +1 Speed it's still outpaced by Jolly Mega Lopunny. (Edit: Ninja'd :I)Not to mention I don't really like giving DD to random mons >_>
Thundy-T + Electric/Dark typing: OK, so I might be a little bit biased seeing as this is my submission, but I think this has a lot of merit. Dark is an excellent offensive type this gen, and when Scarfed it outspeeds a lot of the meta. You can afford to run Modest Scarf, and the power boost from Modest is really quite worth it.
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 288-338 (96.3 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
184 Atk Thundurus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 284-336 (89 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Of course, I realize that these are all Dark-weak mons, but they're pretty common Pokemon in the meta.
That's not to say that there aren't any drawbacks whatsoever. First of all, without Scarf it's outpaced by a lot of Megas, and it finds it difficult to keep up. It needs an annoyingly large amount of physical investment for Knock Off to do a lot of damage, and its power tends to be underwhelming in general. I still think Thundy-T has hope, though. :')
Arcanine + Fire/Normal typing + SD: Oh gosh. Please, no. SD, E-speed, and an immunity to burn? Oh, did we mention freedom to hold an item, a Fire immunity, or Intimidate? This is horrifyingly good. Don't do this to the metagame, I beg of you. Seriously. At +2, this thing has almost no switch-ins apart from Ghost types. Slap it on a team with a Pursuit trapper like Scarftar and you're set.
Mega Latios + Dragon/Ghost typing + Analytic: Seems like there are a lot of type changes this slate. Dragon/Ghost typing is interesting, to say the least. SubCM sets (is that a thing?) can set up on Chansey and eventually power through it with Draco Meteor. Analytic has never worked for me, but I'm sure it would work well with the switches Latios forces.
I'll likely be adding more later. This looks like a fun slate, can't wait to see what discussions we'll have!
Luxray + DD: Hmph. Interesting, to say the least. I'm sure Intimidate forces switches and allows you to DD, and Akumeoy took care of all the issues with Guts. Unless, of course, you run Spark. It's also rather slow; at +1 Speed it's still outpaced by Jolly Mega Lopunny. (Edit: Ninja'd :I)
Thundy-T + Electric/Dark typing: OK, so I might be a little bit biased seeing as this is my submission, but I think this has a lot of merit. Dark is an excellent offensive type this gen, and when Scarfed it outspeeds a lot of the meta. You can afford to run Modest Scarf, and the power boost from Modest is really quite worth it.
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Thundurus-T Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 288-338 (96.3 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
184 Atk Thundurus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 284-336 (89 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Of course, I realize that these are all Dark-weak mons, but they're pretty common Pokemon in the meta.
That's not to say that there aren't any drawbacks whatsoever. First of all, without Scarf it's outpaced by a lot of Megas, and it finds it difficult to keep up. It needs an annoyingly large amount of physical investment for Knock Off to do a lot of damage, and its power tends to be underwhelming in general. I still think Thundy-T has hope, though. :')
Arcanine + Fire/Normal typing + SD: Oh gosh. Please, no. SD, E-speed, and an immunity to burn? Oh, did we mention freedom to hold an item, a Fire immunity, or Intimidate? This is horrifyingly good. Don't do this to the metagame, I beg of you. Seriously. At +2, this thing has almost no switch-ins apart from Ghost types. Slap it on a team with a Pursuit trapper like Scarftar and you're set.
Mega Latios + Dragon/Ghost typing + Analytic: Seems like there are a lot of type changes this slate. Dragon/Ghost typing is interesting, to say the least. SubCM sets (is that a thing?) can set up on Chansey and eventually power through it with Draco Meteor. Analytic has never worked for me, but I'm sure it would work well with the switches Latios forces.
I'll likely be adding more later. This looks like a fun slate, can't wait to see what discussions we'll have!
Dragon Dance Luxray: I really like this one, since it's so unique yet innovative. First off, a paralysis immunity is one of the greatest assets for a setup sweeper, so those pesky Klefki and Thundurus can't screw up a sweep. Second, Guts gives your opponent a reason not to fish for a burn for fear of powering Luxray up. This makes Luxray the only Dragon Dancer in the game that doesn't really care about status, which on its own is a huge niche. Though Intimidate is still a very viable option if you want to get easier setup opportunities against physical attackers. Finally, Electric is a great STAB type, which is complimented by good coverage moves in Crunch, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, and Superpower, giving it great coverage overall (even if the fangs are a bit weak). One option that I think could be overlooked here is Volt Switch, which could punish a hasty switch and put the opponent in a pickle. Sure, it's weak to Ground, has shaky-at-best bulk, relies on Wild Charge to deal any real damage, and would be the slowest Dragon Dancer in the tier, but I feel that Luxray has more than enough to give it an edge over its competition.
Electric / Dark Thundurus-T: Very little resists Electric / Dark coverage, with the only viable resistors being Hydreigon and Chesnaught, both of which are threatened by Hidden Power Ice, making Thundurus-T much harder to switch into. Replacing the Flying typing with a Dark typing also removes its Rock and Ice weaknesses, and grants it Dark and Ghost resistances along with a Psychic immunity; despite now being vulnerable to Ground-type moves and Spikes, I think this is a fair trade-off. This makes Thundurus-T either a potent wallbreaker with Nasty Plot or a powerful sweeper with Agility, or since the STAB coverage alone is so good, you could afford to go with a double dance variant. Not much to say on this one, but I'm fond of this.
Fire / Normal Arcanine + Swords Dance: At first I loved this idea, but now I'm all love/hate with it. On the love side, I think Arcanine is one of those Pokemon that really needed a big buff to bump it out of the realm of inferiority. While I was hoping for a more defensive approach, an offensive approach is just fine, and it doesn't get much better than this. STAB on Extreme Speed is one thing, but giving Arcanine Swords Dance makes it an insanely powerful sweeper that's capable of easily sweeping weakened or unprepared teams. On the hate side, Arcanine might do this too well, as a +2 Extreme Speed is a clean OHKO against Keldeo and a 2HKO against Tank Garchomp... yeah... Intimidate to get easy setup opportunities and burn immunity make approaching Arcanine so much harder than it should be, literally no offensive Pokemon that isn't a Rock-, Steel-, or Ghost-type can revenge kill a +2 Arcanine, and not even walls are safe from a +2 attack. I really want Arcanine to be good, but this probably wasn't the way to go about it.
Dragon / Ghost Mega Latios + Analytic: I've contemplated on what could be a good Mega Latios buff for a while, and this was the best I could come up with. Replacing the Psychic typing with a Ghost typing is a good buff offensively and defensively, as it not only grants Mega Latios STAB coverage resisted only by Bisharp (don't you dare mention Wigglytuff), but it also removes his Bug weakness, gives him Bug and Poison resistances, and gives him a Fighting immunity. While this new typing brings Mega Latios plenty of benefits, I felt that this alone wasn't a big enough buff, which is where Analytic comes in. With Analytic, Mega Latios becomes much harder to switch into. To put this new power into perspective, Mega Latios can cleanly OHKO Keldeo with Draco Meteor after an Analytic boost, so anything frailer that doesn't have a Dragon resistance/immunity is going to get wrecked. Defensive Pokemon will also be worn down very quickly by Analytic boosted attacks, which can give a teammate the chance to take a wall out later in the battle. The only flaw with Analytic is the fact that Mega Latios no longer has Levitate, so Ground-type moves and Spikes might be an issue. Overall, I think I did good with this.
I'm having a hard time deciding who to vote for, as I really like most of these ideas.
Electric / Dark Thundurus-T: Very little resists Electric / Dark coverage, with the only viable resistors being Hydreigon and Chesnaught, both of which are threatened by Hidden Power Ice, making Thundurus-T much harder to switch into. Replacing the Flying typing with a Dark typing also removes its Rock and Ice weaknesses, and grants it Dark and Ghost resistances along with a Psychic immunity; despite now being vulnerable to Ground-type moves and Spikes, I think this is a fair trade-off. This makes Thundurus-T either a potent wallbreaker with Nasty Plot or a powerful sweeper with Agility, or since the STAB coverage alone is so good, you could afford to go with a double dance variant. Not much to say on this one, but I'm fond of this.
Fire / Normal Arcanine + Swords Dance: At first I loved this idea, but now I'm all love/hate with it. On the love side, I think Arcanine is one of those Pokemon that really needed a big buff to bump it out of the realm of inferiority. While I was hoping for a more defensive approach, an offensive approach is just fine, and it doesn't get much better than this. STAB on Extreme Speed is one thing, but giving Arcanine Swords Dance makes it an insanely powerful sweeper that's capable of easily sweeping weakened or unprepared teams. On the hate side, Arcanine might do this too well, as a +2 Extreme Speed is a clean OHKO against Keldeo and a 2HKO against Tank Garchomp... yeah... Intimidate to get easy setup opportunities and burn immunity make approaching Arcanine so much harder than it should be, literally no offensive Pokemon that isn't a Rock-, Steel-, or Ghost-type can revenge kill a +2 Arcanine, and not even walls are safe from a +2 attack. I really want Arcanine to be good, but this probably wasn't the way to go about it.
Dragon / Ghost Mega Latios + Analytic: I've contemplated on what could be a good Mega Latios buff for a while, and this was the best I could come up with. Replacing the Psychic typing with a Ghost typing is a good buff offensively and defensively, as it not only grants Mega Latios STAB coverage resisted only by Bisharp (don't you dare mention Wigglytuff), but it also removes his Bug weakness, gives him Bug and Poison resistances, and gives him a Fighting immunity. While this new typing brings Mega Latios plenty of benefits, I felt that this alone wasn't a big enough buff, which is where Analytic comes in. With Analytic, Mega Latios becomes much harder to switch into. To put this new power into perspective, Mega Latios can cleanly OHKO Keldeo with Draco Meteor after an Analytic boost, so anything frailer that doesn't have a Dragon resistance/immunity is going to get wrecked. Defensive Pokemon will also be worn down very quickly by Analytic boosted attacks, which can give a teammate the chance to take a wall out later in the battle. The only flaw with Analytic is the fact that Mega Latios no longer has Levitate, so Ground-type moves and Spikes might be an issue. Overall, I think I did good with this.
I'm having a hard time deciding who to vote for, as I really like most of these ideas.
Dragon Dance Luxray:
As another person who greatly wishes that Luxray was viable, I honestly don't think this'll do it. There's hope, but there is still so much against it. Poor STAB moves, great competition, poor bulk without intimidate, weak coverage, and poor speed.
Mega Charizard and Mega Altaria obviously come to mind when talking competition as a dragon dancer, as they are easily the best Dragon Dancers and have practically 0 opportunity cost as megas when they are also two of the best pokemon in the tier in general. But when I think about, even Mega Latios, Haxorus, Zygarde and Tyrantrum would be better dragon dances than Luxray.
The only benefits to choosing Luxray as your Dragon Dancer are status absorption with Guts or easier set up with Intimidate, but not both at the same time. So lets compare it to Zygarde, which is also a status resilient Dragon Dancer due to it too having a T-Wave immunity and sometimes running Lum Berry.
Speed:
Jolly Luxray with 70 base speed reaches 393 at +1, failing to out speed Jolly base 130s and practically every scarfer.
Jolly Zygarde with 95 base speed reaches 475 at +1, out speeding common scarfers like Lando-T and Kyurem-B.
Even Adamant Zygarde outspeeds Luxray reaching 433 at +1, also still out speeding + Nature base 150s like Mega Alakazam.
Power:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Luxray Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 298-351 (87.3 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lets imagine that its as I said earlier with Zygarde holding Lum Berry, but Luxray being Jolly.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Luxray Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A Guts Flame Orb set is more powerful but debatably not worth it with Burn and Wild Charge wearing you down super fast.
+1 252 Atk Guts Luxray Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 323-381 (94.7 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Also note that power wise Zygarde has a second STAB in Earthquake, though I guess on the Guts dependant sets Facade is like a second STAB. Zygarde's STAB coverage is still way better than Luxray's even if you count Facade as pseudo STAB, and Luxray's coverage option are weak.
Bulk:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Luxray: 322-379 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 277-327 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zygarde's special bulk is noticeably far better.
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 178-211 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 186-220 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even when Luxray has Intimidate Zygarde still takes physical hits better than Luxray.
Other:
Zygarde also isn't worn down by recoil, hazards, or status half as much as Luxray. Zygarde blocks Volt Switch. Zygarde has Edge Quake coverage to back up its powerful Dragon STAB. Zygarde has Extreme Speed. Zygarde has other sets and niches thanks to gems like Glare, Dragon Tail, Stealth Rock, and Coil.
Meanwhile Luxray has Guts boosted Facade, elemental fangs, super power, volt switch, and Intimidate + Baby Freaking Doll Eyes.
Conclusion of comparison;
Even if Luxray could have both of its great abilities at the same time, Zygarde would probably still be a better Dragon Dancer even with its single useless ability.
Continuing with Luxray by itself. However Electric is a strong offensive type, it isn't half as good physically as it is specially. Heaps of premier physical walls resist/are immune to Luxray's electric STAB, e.g. Tank Chomp, Gliscor, Hippo, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Chesnaught, Mega Venusaur, Celebi, Tangrowth, and plenty of offensive dragons that pack solid bulk too.
Then there is how easy Luxray is to revenge kill in comparison to other speed boosters.
And now I'm gonna stop because I just realised how long this was.
You know I was gonna talk about the others in this post but that really took it all out of me and ended up a lot longer than I'd hoped for.
I actually really like this slate, and liked Dragon Dance Luxray too before I seemed to have persuaded myself into thinking that it would be absolute garbage in OU :/
I will talk about the others another day I guess xD
As another person who greatly wishes that Luxray was viable, I honestly don't think this'll do it. There's hope, but there is still so much against it. Poor STAB moves, great competition, poor bulk without intimidate, weak coverage, and poor speed.
Mega Charizard and Mega Altaria obviously come to mind when talking competition as a dragon dancer, as they are easily the best Dragon Dancers and have practically 0 opportunity cost as megas when they are also two of the best pokemon in the tier in general. But when I think about, even Mega Latios, Haxorus, Zygarde and Tyrantrum would be better dragon dances than Luxray.
The only benefits to choosing Luxray as your Dragon Dancer are status absorption with Guts or easier set up with Intimidate, but not both at the same time. So lets compare it to Zygarde, which is also a status resilient Dragon Dancer due to it too having a T-Wave immunity and sometimes running Lum Berry.
Speed:
Jolly Luxray with 70 base speed reaches 393 at +1, failing to out speed Jolly base 130s and practically every scarfer.
Jolly Zygarde with 95 base speed reaches 475 at +1, out speeding common scarfers like Lando-T and Kyurem-B.
Even Adamant Zygarde outspeeds Luxray reaching 433 at +1, also still out speeding + Nature base 150s like Mega Alakazam.
Power:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Luxray Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 298-351 (87.3 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lets imagine that its as I said earlier with Zygarde holding Lum Berry, but Luxray being Jolly.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Luxray Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A Guts Flame Orb set is more powerful but debatably not worth it with Burn and Wild Charge wearing you down super fast.
+1 252 Atk Guts Luxray Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 323-381 (94.7 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Also note that power wise Zygarde has a second STAB in Earthquake, though I guess on the Guts dependant sets Facade is like a second STAB. Zygarde's STAB coverage is still way better than Luxray's even if you count Facade as pseudo STAB, and Luxray's coverage option are weak.
Bulk:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Luxray: 322-379 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 277-327 (77.3 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zygarde's special bulk is noticeably far better.
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Luxray: 178-211 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 186-220 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even when Luxray has Intimidate Zygarde still takes physical hits better than Luxray.
Other:
Zygarde also isn't worn down by recoil, hazards, or status half as much as Luxray. Zygarde blocks Volt Switch. Zygarde has Edge Quake coverage to back up its powerful Dragon STAB. Zygarde has Extreme Speed. Zygarde has other sets and niches thanks to gems like Glare, Dragon Tail, Stealth Rock, and Coil.
Meanwhile Luxray has Guts boosted Facade, elemental fangs, super power, volt switch, and Intimidate + Baby Freaking Doll Eyes.
Conclusion of comparison;
Even if Luxray could have both of its great abilities at the same time, Zygarde would probably still be a better Dragon Dancer even with its single useless ability.
Continuing with Luxray by itself. However Electric is a strong offensive type, it isn't half as good physically as it is specially. Heaps of premier physical walls resist/are immune to Luxray's electric STAB, e.g. Tank Chomp, Gliscor, Hippo, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Chesnaught, Mega Venusaur, Celebi, Tangrowth, and plenty of offensive dragons that pack solid bulk too.
Then there is how easy Luxray is to revenge kill in comparison to other speed boosters.
And now I'm gonna stop because I just realised how long this was.
You know I was gonna talk about the others in this post but that really took it all out of me and ended up a lot longer than I'd hoped for.
I actually really like this slate, and liked Dragon Dance Luxray too before I seemed to have persuaded myself into thinking that it would be absolute garbage in OU :/
I will talk about the others another day I guess xD
Cool core!
Analytic activates for switch-ins, so the boost comes into play more making it more difficult to switch into. You have to remember that there aren't many spinblockers in the tier (Gengar, basically) and Lati would be able to easily block defensive Starmie, while also being able to take 1 hit from Excadrill and knock it out with Surf.
Reliable recovery is another bonus of using it over Gengar.
This could make it a cool addition to the tier.
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As an aside, I think (especially based upon the early reaction to this slate) that we're forgetting about what the purpose of this project is. We're not aiming to always create S+ rank behemoths that wreck the tier, but aiming to improve the viability of overlooked mons, giving them a niche and making them viable for use in the OU tier. Something to bear in mind before shooting down somebody's submission without much of a thought!
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Onto the rest of the slate!
Dragon Dance Luxray: This is a cool addition that gives Luxray a niche in the tier (DDancer that doesn't give a toss about status), but wouldn't make it to the top level - which is fine by me, to be honest!
I think that comparing it to Mega Char X and MAlt is a little harsh, as they occupy the Mega Slot and you can expect more from it. Electric is also a pretty unique typing for a DDancer, with few weaknesses.
Zygarde is a reasonable comparison, but I feel that both abilities were overlooked - Luxray either has an easier time setting up on physical threats, or just hits a lot harder and doesn't care about status. Electric+Normal (facade pseudo STAB) gives pretty impressive neutral coverage, especially when backed up by Superpower to remove Ferrothorn. Maybe the slate could be adjusted to give it Bolt Strike/Fusion Bolt? It would take away the recoil issue.
The not caring about T-Wave is a big thing now as well with it being particularly popular to spread yellow magic at the moment (Clef, Klef, Thundurus, Ferro, Starmie (yuk), and others).
It's main problem is not outspeeding Lopunny+Mega Man at +1 to be honest, and it really needs to run Jolly.
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Electric / Dark Thundurus-T: I really like this. As Valmanway mentions, the STAB coverage is pretty spot on, and this opens up lots of possibilities for the Double Dance set, as well as for the Scarf Set. Modest Thundy-T hits like an absolute truck, and not being weak to SR means it could come in more often. Also that Dark Pulse flinch chance :)
Something else worth mentioning is that Thundurus-T has the movepool and stats to pull of a niche Physical lure set, boasting STAB Knock Off, Superpower, + Wild Charge off a reasonable base 105 Attack
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Fire / Normal Arcanine + Swords Dance: Soooooo much love for this :) Bring back Scarf Lando-T meta I say!
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 265-312 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO hoooooooly shiiiiiiiiii......
Maybe Lando-T might not make its come back after all!
The normal typing gives it an extra immunity while burdening it with a fighting weakness, not a bad trade to be honest.
I was just doing some calcs thinking that the same things that check Lucario would check Arcanine, but no.. the STAB Espeed makes a massive difference, OHKO'ing the Lati's and Lando-T. What this might do is bring Terrakion back into contention to check it, or even see Cobalion rise in usage:
112 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 320-378 (99.6 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
It'll be difficult to counter depending on its coverage move (Wild Charge/Close Combat), but easy enough to revenge kill (especially with the popularity of Scarf Tar right now).
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 234-278 (59.3 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I guess Bro counters it with ease...
It would also be the only 'mon in OU that resists Fairy/Ghost and Dragon/Ghost :)
Luxray + Dragon Dance:
This originally had me thinking "Wow, somebody slapped Dragon Dance on a random mon again", but then I remembered that Luxray has Guts. Now, this is probably my favorite suggestion because 1. It gives us a DD user that doesn't care about status, and 2. It gives OU a real physical Electric type threat. Electric/Ice coverage is already fantastic, and throw in Fire Fang for Ferrothorn, Crunch for bulky Psychics, and Facade and you have a beast. It's speed tier is unfortunate and it will eventually kill itself but this is my favorite submission.
Electric/Dark Thundurus-T:
Great coverage along with a Stealth Rock neutrality immediately comes to mind, but other things such as losing weaknesses to Ice and Rock are amazing as well for Thund. It still has to find opportunities to set-up which can be problematic, and is now susceptible to all entry hazards, but gaining access to one of the best offensive types in the game is a great buff.
Fire/Normal Arcanine + Swords Dance:
This brings OU a solid E-Speed user but it struggles somewhat against the common Tyranitar. Will-o-Wisp can be run to solve this issue but then you lose out on Wild Charge. Arcanine also has a decent speed tier (95), and +2 E-Speed can pick off most faster pokemon. I can see this as a late-game cleaner similar to Lucario, but Arcanine is bulkier and has Intimidate to help it set-up easier. Definitely a great theorymon, but not my favorite.
Dragon/Ghost Mega Latios + Analytic:
Eh, I'm not the biggest fan of Mega Latios. It's actually a great pokemon, but certain circumstances like taking up a mega slot and not offering a lot over normal Latios prevent it from ever shining in OU. That being said this is an awesome theorymon. I'd almost it rather just gain a Ghost typing because Analytic is just the icing on the cake. With a Dragon/Ghost typing, Latios can check Keldeo better than before, and can spinblock as well. It can easily get past Celebi and Jirachi now, but can't touch Chansey. Analytic is an amazing ability but it just makes M-Latios stupidly hard to switch in to. Ghost typing was enough of a buff imo, and this pushes it over the line, at least for me.
Definitely leaning towards Luxray right now
This originally had me thinking "Wow, somebody slapped Dragon Dance on a random mon again", but then I remembered that Luxray has Guts. Now, this is probably my favorite suggestion because 1. It gives us a DD user that doesn't care about status, and 2. It gives OU a real physical Electric type threat. Electric/Ice coverage is already fantastic, and throw in Fire Fang for Ferrothorn, Crunch for bulky Psychics, and Facade and you have a beast. It's speed tier is unfortunate and it will eventually kill itself but this is my favorite submission.
Electric/Dark Thundurus-T:
Great coverage along with a Stealth Rock neutrality immediately comes to mind, but other things such as losing weaknesses to Ice and Rock are amazing as well for Thund. It still has to find opportunities to set-up which can be problematic, and is now susceptible to all entry hazards, but gaining access to one of the best offensive types in the game is a great buff.
Fire/Normal Arcanine + Swords Dance:
This brings OU a solid E-Speed user but it struggles somewhat against the common Tyranitar. Will-o-Wisp can be run to solve this issue but then you lose out on Wild Charge. Arcanine also has a decent speed tier (95), and +2 E-Speed can pick off most faster pokemon. I can see this as a late-game cleaner similar to Lucario, but Arcanine is bulkier and has Intimidate to help it set-up easier. Definitely a great theorymon, but not my favorite.
Dragon/Ghost Mega Latios + Analytic:
Eh, I'm not the biggest fan of Mega Latios. It's actually a great pokemon, but certain circumstances like taking up a mega slot and not offering a lot over normal Latios prevent it from ever shining in OU. That being said this is an awesome theorymon. I'd almost it rather just gain a Ghost typing because Analytic is just the icing on the cake. With a Dragon/Ghost typing, Latios can check Keldeo better than before, and can spinblock as well. It can easily get past Celebi and Jirachi now, but can't touch Chansey. Analytic is an amazing ability but it just makes M-Latios stupidly hard to switch in to. Ghost typing was enough of a buff imo, and this pushes it over the line, at least for me.
Definitely leaning towards Luxray right now
So yah, guess I'll talk now that I had a great nights sleep.
Luxray is one of those mons that is adored but needs lot of help.Previously we had tried giving it Dark typing to allow it another STAB, but it still really wasnt all that helpful (it was just being to much for its slot). He is slow, needs ways to boost his attack if even marginally, and has some cool mechanics in his typing and abilities, so thought he would make a nice niche as a unique Dragon Dancer.
Now admittedly we have had quite a bit on the Dragon Dancing slate in recent votes (or similar speed boosting/attack mons) such as Krook, but Luxray has some combined niches while new ones to abuse here. As an electric type, it resists the two Priorities of M-Scizor and Talon, allowing it to live a hit when needed (you aint living many of them, but you can, and this is indeed put into question with Life Orb sets if they are used). He is also capable of being one of the few dragon dance mons who doesn't give a shit about status if you decide to utilize his guts set. We have seen in varying degrees of Dragon Dancers who can do this with Cha X who can not be burned and M-Alt who can just refresh away the status. I am not saying that Lux will be put at that level, but it will allow it to be a much, much better mon than it currently is. It also happens to house intimidate, and while its bulk aint that of Gyarados by any stretch, we have seen the wonders that ability has done for dragon dancers everywhere.
Now I'm not trying to make it sound as if it will catapult him into the A rankings of OU. Luxray has his faults, but hey, not every submission needs to be about making a Mon ridiculous. Sometimes its just about introducing a unique or under-utilized niche into the meta to see how said niche will be done on something different. We see dragon dancers affect the higher ranked mons, so it be cool to give Lux a shot and see how well he may or may not do. He wouldn't be tier breaking but he would be an addition that would be more of "Yes, he can be used, and should used" which is something that is often more fun to introduce in my opinion than the overpowered mons (Hydreigon anyone?).
Arcanine is a mon who has seen use within OU everynow and again (albeit, this was back as the counter to Mega Maw and I used it extensively during the M-Lucario/Genesect Heydays), but its always held back for reasons. Not fast enough, great movepool, not bulky enough, SR weak, yada yada yada. STAB Speed and Sword Dance tho? Dear lord, hide your kids and wife. This just friggin evil but still glorious. Like the amount of damage he will put out will be quite nice, and will more than make up the fact he is now fighting weak. Not a lot to state. Simplicity and excellence.
Thund-T getting a way to differentiate from Thundy and gets a STAB Knock Off to fuck with shit? Fun fun. Sure he is still held back by the "not that fast" of 101, but he still has agilitiy to use, and not being that hampered by the normal coverage of electrics might help it a bit. Got to love the no flying weaknesses now (but ground hits it now.......)
I dont have much to comment on Latios other than anything would be an improvement, and how we see Starmie abuse Analytic, and imagining its use on a SPINBLOCKER?! Thats all kinds of badass. Just gonna miss the STAB psyshock
And those are my thoughts. The slate is fun, got some standouts and some role players. All things we need/dont.
Luxray is one of those mons that is adored but needs lot of help.Previously we had tried giving it Dark typing to allow it another STAB, but it still really wasnt all that helpful (it was just being to much for its slot). He is slow, needs ways to boost his attack if even marginally, and has some cool mechanics in his typing and abilities, so thought he would make a nice niche as a unique Dragon Dancer.
Now admittedly we have had quite a bit on the Dragon Dancing slate in recent votes (or similar speed boosting/attack mons) such as Krook, but Luxray has some combined niches while new ones to abuse here. As an electric type, it resists the two Priorities of M-Scizor and Talon, allowing it to live a hit when needed (you aint living many of them, but you can, and this is indeed put into question with Life Orb sets if they are used). He is also capable of being one of the few dragon dance mons who doesn't give a shit about status if you decide to utilize his guts set. We have seen in varying degrees of Dragon Dancers who can do this with Cha X who can not be burned and M-Alt who can just refresh away the status. I am not saying that Lux will be put at that level, but it will allow it to be a much, much better mon than it currently is. It also happens to house intimidate, and while its bulk aint that of Gyarados by any stretch, we have seen the wonders that ability has done for dragon dancers everywhere.
Now I'm not trying to make it sound as if it will catapult him into the A rankings of OU. Luxray has his faults, but hey, not every submission needs to be about making a Mon ridiculous. Sometimes its just about introducing a unique or under-utilized niche into the meta to see how said niche will be done on something different. We see dragon dancers affect the higher ranked mons, so it be cool to give Lux a shot and see how well he may or may not do. He wouldn't be tier breaking but he would be an addition that would be more of "Yes, he can be used, and should used" which is something that is often more fun to introduce in my opinion than the overpowered mons (Hydreigon anyone?).
Arcanine is a mon who has seen use within OU everynow and again (albeit, this was back as the counter to Mega Maw and I used it extensively during the M-Lucario/Genesect Heydays), but its always held back for reasons. Not fast enough, great movepool, not bulky enough, SR weak, yada yada yada. STAB Speed and Sword Dance tho? Dear lord, hide your kids and wife. This just friggin evil but still glorious. Like the amount of damage he will put out will be quite nice, and will more than make up the fact he is now fighting weak. Not a lot to state. Simplicity and excellence.
Thund-T getting a way to differentiate from Thundy and gets a STAB Knock Off to fuck with shit? Fun fun. Sure he is still held back by the "not that fast" of 101, but he still has agilitiy to use, and not being that hampered by the normal coverage of electrics might help it a bit. Got to love the no flying weaknesses now (but ground hits it now.......)
I dont have much to comment on Latios other than anything would be an improvement, and how we see Starmie abuse Analytic, and imagining its use on a SPINBLOCKER?! Thats all kinds of badass. Just gonna miss the STAB psyshock
And those are my thoughts. The slate is fun, got some standouts and some role players. All things we need/dont.
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Focus Blast?
252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 411-484 (101.9 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
For real, did I like, cross over into an alternate universe where Fighting-type moves don't exist? People keep forgetting about them...
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I find this slate pretty uninspiring. It's seems all of these go against the core idea behind this thread which was to generally provide defensive boosts to otherwise unviable pokemon. Luxray is the lone standout to me, being to switch in in any status, and then dancing and having the nice coverage of the fangs crunch and its stab.
Thunudrus is a pure hyper offense type, and the few OHKOS it gains come with a worse defensive typing (weak to ground, uturn,fighting fairies).
Mega latios is alright. Trading immunities doesn't seem to affect it too much. It's stabs still have immunities, so I'm not sure analytic will help it too much on the switch, plus the stuff you are really scared of is probably ohkoing you anyway.
Arcanine is absolutely stupid. Please don't vote for this. A +2 extreme speed 2HKO the meta, while bring immune to burn and not caring about paralysis. Rock and steels aren't going to stop this since they are largely slower and will die to flare blitz and superpower. It even has intimidate for easy set up. Morning sun is there if you want a bulky build.
Let's just move ekiller arceus down and save ourselves the trouble coding this one.
Thunudrus is a pure hyper offense type, and the few OHKOS it gains come with a worse defensive typing (weak to ground, uturn,fighting fairies).
Mega latios is alright. Trading immunities doesn't seem to affect it too much. It's stabs still have immunities, so I'm not sure analytic will help it too much on the switch, plus the stuff you are really scared of is probably ohkoing you anyway.
Arcanine is absolutely stupid. Please don't vote for this. A +2 extreme speed 2HKO the meta, while bring immune to burn and not caring about paralysis. Rock and steels aren't going to stop this since they are largely slower and will die to flare blitz and superpower. It even has intimidate for easy set up. Morning sun is there if you want a bulky build.
Let's just move ekiller arceus down and save ourselves the trouble coding this one.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 347-409 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 253-298 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 302-356 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 266-316 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 360-425 (111.4 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 399-472 (99.5 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 253-298 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 302-356 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 266-316 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 360-425 (111.4 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 399-472 (99.5 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Luxray + DD: So this one stuck out to me because I too have been looking into ways to make Luxray viable. It seems like a mon that was designed to be OU but couldn't hang. I don't think DD will do it though, it's too slow at its start speed to get anything going and doesn't have to luxury of being bulky like M-Tyrant or anything. I think Isa Simple did an excellent analysis by pulling out similar DD mons and showing how it is still relatively outclassed. It would have a niche but wouldn't be making headway into OU.
Fire/Normal Arcanine + SD: Idk this kind of theorymon frustrates me to a degree because it's like someone just thought "how can we have Ekiller Arceus in OU". Obviously that's an exaggeration as it lacks the speed and bulk of Arceus but it is very similar to what was going on with Sylveon + Geomancy where its just a mini version of an Uber mon. Biggest diff is it also has the fire stab meaning pretty much Rock and a few type combos resist its STAB while Close Combat and Wild Charge kinda ruin those switch ins as most don't have either the speed or offense to revenge kill/switchin. Arcanine can even run a more defensive SD set with either will-o-wisp or morning sun or both and just rely on Extremespeed wrecking house. Overall probably broken but I kinda have that reaction to many theorymons.
Electric/Dark Thundurus-T: I think this is very good although I'm iffy on the flavor as Thundurus is supposed to be within a flying type legendary trio but I'll ignore that for the time being. STAB Knock Off and Dark Pulse are obviously huge. I think the drawback on not having ground immunity anymore will be fairly significant to it however. It fails to 2hko both defensive Lando-T and Hippo while getting OHKO'd by their EQ's without Hidden Power Ice. If it runs Hidden Power Ice it has to trade off either Focus Blast or Nasty Plot meaning it isn't getting past some walls. It has good speed but obviously isn't in the top tier speed so it can be revenge killed fairly easily if it isn't running Scarf which leaves Nasty Plot off the table but luckily Dark Pulse spamming is pretty viable. I think Scarf might be its best set with Volt Switch it'd be much like a better Hydreigon. Overall pretty solid probably has my vote although again I am pretty iffy on the flavor.
Dragon/Ghost Mega Latios + Analytic: You see I was iffy on the flavor for Thundurus-T because I could kinda see it (Thundurus-T looks more malicious, doesn't look like he is flying as much) but this flavor is just atrocious I'm sorry where does he have a ghostly vibe to him. Also losing Levitate is also pretty despicable from a flavor pov considering he flies and shit but w/e again I'll ignore the flavor for now. Dragon/Ghost is a great typing if you haven't played against a Giratina any time recently. It's a pretty simple trade for a ghost weakness instead of a bug weakness which turns into a bug resist which honestly MLat benefits from pretty massively considering how common it is to run a U-turn like Torn-T to check Latios. Mega is also less weak to Knock Off so already MLat is better at absorbing common attacks that target regular Latios. He also has more bulk so even better. Now he has analytic meaning he can play the Starmie game where he can either go offensive and do serious damages to switchins or go defensive and rely on being slow for power. I kinda like the slow route with this MLat, going bulky with Roost and a status is a true niche over regular Latios, one you could argue he already has with his current setup but like I explained the Ghost typing is a pretty massive upgrade that you wouldn't normally expect considering he keeps the dark weakness. MLat is now more worried about Land-T though and Ground types in general I am honestly wondering if I like sticking with Levitate better than Analytic as it would make MLat even better defensively but I think Analytic holds up a little more by being viable on both types. If only it got will-o-wisp, it's a shame with this mon you can't really suggest a moveset change because it'd be given to Latios too. This suggestion is interesting for sure especially since I don't think it is broken and there are so many things you could give to MLat that would definitely make him better than Latios but probably too broken for OU. This is a nice middle ground. Might get my vote if I see others analyzing it well.
Fire/Normal Arcanine + SD: Idk this kind of theorymon frustrates me to a degree because it's like someone just thought "how can we have Ekiller Arceus in OU". Obviously that's an exaggeration as it lacks the speed and bulk of Arceus but it is very similar to what was going on with Sylveon + Geomancy where its just a mini version of an Uber mon. Biggest diff is it also has the fire stab meaning pretty much Rock and a few type combos resist its STAB while Close Combat and Wild Charge kinda ruin those switch ins as most don't have either the speed or offense to revenge kill/switchin. Arcanine can even run a more defensive SD set with either will-o-wisp or morning sun or both and just rely on Extremespeed wrecking house. Overall probably broken but I kinda have that reaction to many theorymons.
Electric/Dark Thundurus-T: I think this is very good although I'm iffy on the flavor as Thundurus is supposed to be within a flying type legendary trio but I'll ignore that for the time being. STAB Knock Off and Dark Pulse are obviously huge. I think the drawback on not having ground immunity anymore will be fairly significant to it however. It fails to 2hko both defensive Lando-T and Hippo while getting OHKO'd by their EQ's without Hidden Power Ice. If it runs Hidden Power Ice it has to trade off either Focus Blast or Nasty Plot meaning it isn't getting past some walls. It has good speed but obviously isn't in the top tier speed so it can be revenge killed fairly easily if it isn't running Scarf which leaves Nasty Plot off the table but luckily Dark Pulse spamming is pretty viable. I think Scarf might be its best set with Volt Switch it'd be much like a better Hydreigon. Overall pretty solid probably has my vote although again I am pretty iffy on the flavor.
Dragon/Ghost Mega Latios + Analytic: You see I was iffy on the flavor for Thundurus-T because I could kinda see it (Thundurus-T looks more malicious, doesn't look like he is flying as much) but this flavor is just atrocious I'm sorry where does he have a ghostly vibe to him. Also losing Levitate is also pretty despicable from a flavor pov considering he flies and shit but w/e again I'll ignore the flavor for now. Dragon/Ghost is a great typing if you haven't played against a Giratina any time recently. It's a pretty simple trade for a ghost weakness instead of a bug weakness which turns into a bug resist which honestly MLat benefits from pretty massively considering how common it is to run a U-turn like Torn-T to check Latios. Mega is also less weak to Knock Off so already MLat is better at absorbing common attacks that target regular Latios. He also has more bulk so even better. Now he has analytic meaning he can play the Starmie game where he can either go offensive and do serious damages to switchins or go defensive and rely on being slow for power. I kinda like the slow route with this MLat, going bulky with Roost and a status is a true niche over regular Latios, one you could argue he already has with his current setup but like I explained the Ghost typing is a pretty massive upgrade that you wouldn't normally expect considering he keeps the dark weakness. MLat is now more worried about Land-T though and Ground types in general I am honestly wondering if I like sticking with Levitate better than Analytic as it would make MLat even better defensively but I think Analytic holds up a little more by being viable on both types. If only it got will-o-wisp, it's a shame with this mon you can't really suggest a moveset change because it'd be given to Latios too. This suggestion is interesting for sure especially since I don't think it is broken and there are so many things you could give to MLat that would definitely make him better than Latios but probably too broken for OU. This is a nice middle ground. Might get my vote if I see others analyzing it well.
I posted earlier about Luxray's shortcomings, but I don't think he would be utter garbage in OU. Intimidate is a really nice ability for a dragon dancer, and he resits Talonflame's brave bird and Scizor's bullet punch. He would certainly be a niche choice, and be outclassed by other DDs, but he would be viable. Adding in new viable pokemon to a metagame is always fun.
Anyways I think Mega Latios is going to get my vote, if for nothing other than his ghost typing. OU is strapped for offensive spin blockers, with Gengar being the only really viable one. Hell, I even tried out Choice Band Trevenant the other day since I didn't want to use Gengar (it didn't go over too well.) Analytic is a nice boost too, even though he loses a ground immunity. It at least gives him a way to out damage regular Latios if something switches in. Unfortunately he has to mega evolve to spin block, but with his bulk and typing it won't be too hard to find opportunities. Defog would kind of be redundant for a spin blocker, so he has an open moveslot and can easily fit in roost for recovery. As a bonus he resists both sides of the Voltturn core now too. The main problem with using him would be that your giving up your mega for a spin blocker, but at least there is more reason to use this than regular Mega Latios, who also faces this problem.
Anyways I think Mega Latios is going to get my vote, if for nothing other than his ghost typing. OU is strapped for offensive spin blockers, with Gengar being the only really viable one. Hell, I even tried out Choice Band Trevenant the other day since I didn't want to use Gengar (it didn't go over too well.) Analytic is a nice boost too, even though he loses a ground immunity. It at least gives him a way to out damage regular Latios if something switches in. Unfortunately he has to mega evolve to spin block, but with his bulk and typing it won't be too hard to find opportunities. Defog would kind of be redundant for a spin blocker, so he has an open moveslot and can easily fit in roost for recovery. As a bonus he resists both sides of the Voltturn core now too. The main problem with using him would be that your giving up your mega for a spin blocker, but at least there is more reason to use this than regular Mega Latios, who also faces this problem.
I was the one who submitted the Arcanine + Normal typing and SD on this slate, and I think that SD is maybe too good for this 'mon. I originally though that just the Normal-typing wasn't good enough for Arcanine, as its SR weakness and not-so-amazing stats would limit its use, but now I'm starting to think that anything with STAB E-Speed, a boosting move, and solid coverage options can be potentially overcentralizing. Removing SD would make Arcanine way less powerful, as its only boosting option would be Howl, but it'd still have its STAB E-Speed and great movepool.
So my suggestion is: If the Arcanine submission is deemed too broken, change it to just Arcanine + Fire/Normal Type
So my suggestion is: If the Arcanine submission is deemed too broken, change it to just Arcanine + Fire/Normal Type
Obviously it's your suggestion, but something I feel could be less broken, has really cool flavor, but is significantly better than fire/normal could be making it fire/fairy + Pixilate. Just a thought.
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