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OverPower - The Reason why Average Pokés are going to lose space in Gen V teams.

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Chains of Ruin, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. Chains of Ruin

    Chains of Ruin

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    Hi there, it´s Chains of Ruin War Journal, (my first post), reporting some things that have been bothering me. I´m new to the Forum BUT not that new to Competitive Pokémon. And I´m Scared. Really. Cause in the upcoming Gen V or you HAVE the stats to make an impact or you end like Miltank and possibly Afro Bull - in the Butcher. Why am I talking about Butchers? Cause Butchers have Axes. And now prepare for the real part of the Thread.

    The Offensive Department

    The Axe-Face Murderer has ALMOST THE SAME ATK of Rayquaza and people ask what kind of teams we will have to prepare for? Listen to this people, this is THE generation that is going to define what niche a Poké has on a team. Things that have average numbers on all the 6 Stats, crappy offensive typing or a BIG problem (let´s see how dominant will SR be) are going to be replaced.

    This time, we can´t have a SORT OF sweeper or a SORT OF stall-breaker or a SORT OF offensive lead. We need specialized ATK/Sp ATK pokes that rape teams, with OR WITHOUT a turn of setup.

    All time favourites and newcomers will take their spot, but it seems like Mence, Luke, the OMG Blaziken, Doryuzuu, Ononokuzu, Heatran, Scizor, Gyara, Gengar, Sazando, Tyranitar and Dnite will make the bulk of Offense, not counting with Kingdra and Starmie are everywhere! with the RainToed/ Swimming Googles combo. To a lesser extent, we have Metagross (it can blow up, but has a predictable movepool and no Gen V toys to play with, as far as I know), Jolteon and Vire (one has the speed and power and lacks mixed and surprise capabilities, the other his THE Expert Belt Poké but it doesn´t have the stats without a Motor Drive boost but even then it gets easilly walled), Ape (your outclassed, monkey man) Machamp (there´s another No Guard Poke, isn´t it), Heracross, Technician Breloom and The Shadow Tag Candle. Do you see gimmicks having a spot to shine? Will you use them, when you can have the SAME umpredictability with TONS of more power? I think that even Bulky Offense will be much less effective. Offensive Suicune, ZApdos or Togekiss will have more trouble finding the time to get thoose boosts AND take the hits from the sweepers. And I didn´t say that the Good Old same counters from the past won´t be there to spot their sweep, did I?

    The Defensive Department

    Same goes to walls. Snorlax can´t take a DMeteor in Gen IV. Do you see it taking a Sazando Bomb (just joke, don´t ban me cause I spread rumors about new moves XD) to the face? This is just an example. And if in Sweepers being a one turn or ZERO turn menace is one of the requisites, same goes for walls. People - RELIABLE RECOVERY, GOOD STATS and GOOD TYPING have to be ALL combined. No more RestTalk spam. Yes, maybe that anti-Fighting restTalk Gyara or Torment Tran or (this will probably be durable enough and has Roost) Phaze Zapdos will live to see the sunlight, but now The ONLY and FEW reliable pokés will be Skarm, Blissey, Cresselia WITH Ninetales boosted Moonlight, The Ghost/Water jellyfish, Swampert, Poison Heal Gliscor, Suicune (here, Crocune has HIS spot) the Grass/Steel Forretress, Forretress himself, Tentacruel finally abusing it´s Speed and I think that´s it. The Shadow Tag candle can also make a number on Stall, has a Spin Blocker, but I think the Jellyfish will do better.

    Walling and Stalling on this Generation will mean being able to resist to Choice Hard Hitters, Weather Boosted Suicide Bombers, Setup Sweepers, Stall Breakers or, plain and simple, STAB Outrages, Draco Meteors, EQs, Stone Edges, Hi Jump Kicks/ DynamicPunches, BoltBeams (maybe this time Thunder/Blizzard, with thoose nasty Googles and Wheaters) Fire Blasts and, the biggest weapon against STALL, Taunt. Only the Brave, says the wise man.


    That´s it. We have 6 slots to put pokes. Will you waste them on something that does sweeping or walling on an average way (at best, even if unpredictable gimmick) or will you spend your slots with only the selected members of THE LIST of the Strongest sweepers, Most Durable Walls, Nastiest Stall Breakers or Useful Supporters?

    Many people had problems with this question, so I will explain myself. In D/P/Pt and in the later HG/SS, some less used OU and lower Tier Pokés received gifts that made them more viable, from a competitive perspective. In this Gen, IMO, and this is just speculation, the only POkés that will be viable are the ones posted. (And let me finish, don´t kill me now)

    1 - The Evolving Meta was never about the available or recently discoverd gimmicks, but about Top Tier Pokés that evolved, and, by themselves, changed the Meta. Bullet Punch Sizor or Outrage Mence are examples of that. It was also about Anti Metagame pokes, and think, I said METAgame. The core of Competitive Pokémon has a LOT to do with TormentTran, TyraniBoah, BulKyGyara, offensive Pokés that are made different to addapt and counter the Meta, and make it evolve, another time. We always think is a competitive way, right? If so, are there really any space to gimmicks, outsiders in this competitive realms?

    2 - It´s a kind of weird thing to post BORING META!!!! TOO MUCH HYPE!!!! YOU SPECULATE TOO MUCH! I WILL USE WHAT I WANT! when you all go out there, run to the stores and go Wi-Fi or Shoddy Battle with your Ononozuku just to see how it´s like having 147 base Atk, DD, SD and Mold Breaker. Really people, you say NO, but the game WILL be based, like it has been since Gen I, in 15-25 POkés, but this time there is REALLY no space or hope to win a match with something outside the Elite. They are just to powerfull.

    3 - Again about the Hype. You gave me the Rhyperior example. The madness about 140 base Atk and Solid Rock. That´s a a Quick Attack from a Pidgey compared to what´s coming. There are powerfull things coming, you will see.

    4 - The boosts to frailer pokes have nothing to do and won´t have the same impact. If you think tha now everything as a nice shot on OU, use a CB Blissey. You will see that the Core will be formed and few things outside from it can make you win matches.


    This is not a post to make you hate me, just my opinion about an overpowered metagame where few are viable and many are raped, but this IS positive, because the evolution of players, movesets and prediction will make it even better.

    Enjoy your Black and White games
  2. Kiorein

    Kiorein

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    Okay, is this supposed to be a scary forewarning of a limited metagame, or a happy proclamation of a renewed and interesting meta?
  3. Enlong

    Enlong

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    I will fight, and quite possibly win, with the pokémon that I like.

    And with new moves, Dream World Abilities, and new items, that's more viable than it has been for some time.

    Any other questions?
  4. Mastadi

    Mastadi

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    Typical case of too much hype.

    Think about what people were thinking about Rhyperior in pre/early-DP
  5. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

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    First off all, seeing as the metagame will probably start without a banlist it is highly unlikely that this prediction will turn out to be accurate at all.
    Second it seems that swimming goggles was a hoax and shouldn't be discusses anymore.


    Not sure what you are expecting from this question. A competitive player will always choose the best, that's nothing new from this generation.
  6. the_artic_one

    the_artic_one

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    If we end up playing with teams revealed I'm fairly certain that versatility will win out over specialization in the long run.
  7. Yamaha

    Yamaha

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    Very good read! It seems that finally Offensive teams will balance over Defensive/Stall teams, if not more! Although I hope Stall teams isn't dead, otherwises it would be quick battles with everyone "1-hitting" each other pokes.
  8. AxelLow

    AxelLow

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    Exactly. Before posting about any of the above pokes, I suggest you look into their respective threads before anything.

    For one thing, Ono is powerful, and I frequent the hell out his thread, but I know what counters him easily, with most of the current OU's still giving him problems. Same could be said for most of the new pokes. Does that mean it'll be hyper offensive? Yes and no. It'll be more fast paced, but other styles of play still have their presence.
  9. lumpor

    lumpor

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    Playing only to win, using the same team over and over again is boring. I'll always choose the fun pokemon
  10. Sphyxius

    Sphyxius

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    The OP should calm down. He's also not right. The epitome of "specialized stats" would be something like Deoxys-A. Does Deoxys-A rule the uber tier with an iron fist? No.

    We don't know who the best are yet so this statement is pretty pointless.
  11. Kindrindra

    Kindrindra

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    ...You know, there are tiers other than OU.

    I jest, of course. I know what you mean. But I would like to point something out- You DON'T get the same level of unpredictability. Sure, as the metagame starts out, people won't know up from down. But, after a while, sets will start to emerge. People will know what things might do. That's the appeal in gimmicks- They can net some surprise KOs, since your opponent may be expecting something else.

    As for the fact you said that pokemon that are pure one thing rather than being spread out will be used more often- Walls that can't do any damage are most likely going to be sent to the pits of NU (Read: Shuckle).


    Okay, after all that criticism, now for my thoughts- I think that this Gen will see a great rise in pokemon that have a special twist to them- We've already seen the discussions on two of these pokemon- The chandelier Ghost pokemon has both Shadow Hold and an impressive list of resists and immunities- but that's not all! It can set-up and sweep! In my humble opinion, they will bring Wobbefet out of Ubers simply for being so much better. Another, less dangerous pokemon, Erufuun, seems poised to either become the first pokemon to get into OU PURELY on it's annoyer tenancies, or to become a massive threat in UU.
  12. revdjweb

    revdjweb

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    there is going to be a very chaotic feeling out process, especially with pokemon that have great established track records who now have access to a useful dreamworld ability (salamence, gyarados, etc.); it will swing wildly towards the new ability then back to the old one then somewhere in the middle. the addition of type nullifying/absorbing abilities (justice heart, herbivore) as well as the expansion of which pokemon can get previous ones (lightning rod, flash fire, etc.) will open an entire new vista of defensive strategy and severely hamper scarf usage outside the remaining unblockable attack types (dragon, ice, steel, rock, bug, flying).
  13. Kyreth

    Kyreth

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    Oddly enough, we may have the anti-sweeper Pokemon.

    Ditto + Choice Scarf. Eccentric = no more waiting to Transform, and the result means a Pokemon that copies everything, stat boosts and all of it's opponent.

    You don't want to sit there with your fully-boosted Pokemon only to find out your opponent pulled Ditto out, ninjaed your uberness when it transforms, and countersweeps you into the dirt with a little pink blob that macked your +++ ATK/SPD Outrage and nuked your entire team with it.
  14. JSND

    JSND

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    hmm you are missing one interesting pokemon.
    The great offensive terror that is cloyster
  15. emo bear

    emo bear

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    So many grammatical errors in this post. It was literally a pain to read all of that.

    Makes it highly unbelieveable.
  16. Sandstreamer

    Sandstreamer

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    Well, I have read pretty much the same article when Gen IV came out and I have written pretty much the same article when Gen III came out. xD
    Just wait how the metagame turns out, then you'll learn what I have learned over the years. ;)
  17. Boss jr.

    Boss jr.

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    The OU MetaGame is designed to be balanced and thus it will be balanced. Anything too powerful will be Uber'ed anything powerful enough but out classed will be Borderlined. Thus is the nature of the game...

    The expansion to the OU Tier will likely grant more diversity than ever and there will obviously be a weather war. But otherwise there should be little change in regards to specialized stat spreads. Glass Cannons are cool and all but ultimately have low survivability. Sweepers need to take a hit so as to set up. And walls/stallers still need to attack to keep from being Taunt Locked into Struggle. Specialized spreads will (like always) be outclassed by other Pokemon with more "balanced spreads" or risk being banished to the Uber or Borderlined tiers.

    It just is.
  18. Entreri

    Entreri

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    Trying to read that and make sense of it all is a nightmare itself. You jump around in your thought process, you state things but do not connect them to the point in which you are trying to make but which I could not figure out, and talk about things that are untrue to being with. Not to mention the grammar is so horrible that the post ends up looking like a bunch of words strung together with no obvious purpose in mind.

    Basically, what I got out of your post is that the meta-game is going to evolve around Pokemon that have a high Atk or Special Atk stat and a decent speed stat, which may or may not be true as it is to early to tell. I would explain more on opinion, but frankly I have no idea what the guy was talking about so what I am talking about may be off topic.
  19. Project_Mars

    Project_Mars

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    Shrug.
    I think it's a bit too early to predict the meta, but i think Para-Flinch 'Kiss won't be any less annoying.
  20. the voice of reason

    the voice of reason

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    It kinda sounds like OP is just saying "THIS NEW METAGAME WILL BE RULED BY THE BEST POKEMON IN IT!", to which I agree, and am completely unbothered by.
  21. Coldcut

    Coldcut

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    Just based on the Base Stat analysis done by Alex_Dino in his Power Creep thread, much of what the OP says actually could happen. Compared to other generations, the Gen V balance between offense and defense has shifted heavily toward the offensive side. In Gen I, when offensive stats were on average higher than defensive stats, the game was offensively based. In Gen II, when defensive stats were on average much higher than offensive stats, stall prevailed. Gens III and IV moved back to offensively based, but the two were much closer, and a decent mix of offense and stall ensued. However, in Gen V, the offensive stats kept going up while the defensive stats dropped, creating a divide as large as in Gen II, but reversed. This is all entirely based on pokemon base stats, with no consideration whatsoever of moves, typing, game mechanics, etc.

    Assuming that the metagame will again be forcibly balanced, this means that the early metagame will likely be very volatile, with pokes being banned constantly until a stable equilibrium is reached. With this in mind, I would urge restraint, since it is likely that the "best" sets will not be discovered right away, and banning things before the metagame has a chance to mature is unfair.
  22. PawnSlayer

    PawnSlayer

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    He's shaping up to be another from Gen 1 who has truly Taken A Level in Bad Ass this time around - which nobody saw until a fair way into his thread.

    He's just one of many however who are contending for OU, and it's far too early to say for sure who will make it. Not every pokemon can be there, obviously. Granted, I think he will, but the large-scale testing has yet to begin.

    It's going to be a seriously fun ride though, no question.
  23. More Cowbell

    More Cowbell

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    Every Pokémon has its counter, so ways will be found to eventually beat the 'best' Pokémon. It was just like last gen, stuff like Salamence and Garchomp kind of ruled (resulting in both being banned to Ubers), but they both had their counters, and the same will happen over here.

    And even though the new Pokémon are more offensively based, there are still defensive behemoths like Blissey and Skarmory, things that won't change too much.
  24. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Banned deucer.

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    Uh...Ape is NOT outclassed by blaziken. NOT EVEN CLOSE. When you factor in priority moves (on both the physical and special side) and the ability to boost your special or attack (your choice) in 1 turn who gives a fuck about speed?? Sorry blaziken but in the end priority and higher stats win.
  25. NeoSeth

    NeoSeth

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    Okay, I had a hard time reading the first post. You're new, so I'll cut you some slack, but you need to know that on this forum long posts need to be well-thought out and properly supported. The "rants" on this website generally would earn an A if presented as an essay to any English teacher. Correction: The rants that actually try to accomplish something instead of just rambling on, which is what this seems to be. Someone's ranting on and on, and it doesn't really do much.

    In regards to what you actually said, think about D/P. Rampardos had OVER 160 ATTACK, AND had a move to boost it's SPEED TO +2! Where is he? UU, or maybe even NU (I don't remember exactly). Electrivire has AMAZING coverage AND a Speed boosting-immunity. True, he's OU, but barely.

    In Gen V, yes, there are terrifying new threats that will continue to diversify the metagame. Cloyster might be OU, Garchomp will be back (LANDSHARK MOTHERF***ER!), tons of weather Pokemon, etc. But what can we say? Blaziken seems awesome now, with Speed Boost, but the new metagame might find Water-type priority users in abundance to counter the new threats. If that happens, Blaziken will be effectively nerfed. So don't make any real assumptions until we get ahold of this, although it will be crazy at first with no one knowing anything.

    As for choosing Pokemon that are specialized/powerful, HELLO! That's how you win. When you build a team, you create a mission statement/win condition and you set out to accomplish it as efficiently as possible. You counter threats, you break walls, etc. And sometimes, you'll need something to counter specific problems. I mean, Porygon2 has Trace, and is specialized to function almost exclusively in OU. If your team has 5 Pokemon and is weak to Gyarados, Salamence, Heatran and Jolteon, but little else, slap Porygon2 on there and go for it. True, you should build teams you like, but you'll find yourself needing something to do a specific job, and then you'll pick the specialty Pokemon. And by the way, specialty Pokemon generally aren't the most used. The most used are versatile and can perform many jobs, often at once.

    For an example, Heatran. It can be defensive or offensive, or a lead, and perform many tasks at once. It can attack with Fire Blast, set-up Stealth Rock, lure special walls and blow up on them, all with one set. Then look at Tyrannitar. What CAN'T Tyrannitar do? It can go Special, Physical, Mixed, Defensive (Both ways), set-up sweeper, Choice Scarf, etc. These Pokemon are common for a reason: They do a lot of stuff.

    So, please, calm down and wait untilt the game comes out. Things will (Eventually) be alright. Until then... 4Drag2Mag FTW.

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