Other OverUsed General Discussion

[The Grand Babido]

this forum is truly a circus at the moment.

I think a thread like this would be useful to discuss OverUsed in a more broader sense rather than focusing on something more specific

 

[ClockworkLad]

So I'm the conversation starter?

Gen 6 OU is the most offensively based OU since Gen 1

Stall is no longer as viable as it was due too Defog and the Weather Nerf. Ghosts are now once again one of the best types, and Fairies block off Dragons. The Megas are mostly offensive and carry Uber level stats.

I'm way too tired to post more, so I'll come back and edit this post after I get some sleep

 

[Lee]

Metagames are always more offensive in their initial period; anyone from previous generations will back me up on that. And I wouldn't hesitate to say that both Generations 4 and 5 were far more offensive during their inception than the current Gen 6 metagame. The average Pokemon is much bulkier than the equivalent in previous gens at this stage. We've got all sorts of bulky pivots, Assault Vest users and Fairies with that absurd defensive typing etc.

Give it some time, things will settle.

 

[TheDoctor1]

So I'm the conversation starter?

Gen 6 OU is the most offensively based OU since Gen 1

Stall is no longer as viable as it was due too Defog and the Weather Nerf. Ghosts are now once again one of the best types, and Fairies block off Dragons. The Megas are mostly offensive and carry Uber level stats.

I'm way too tired to post more, so I'll come back and edit this post after I get some sleep

I completely disagree, I feel that stall is far more viable this gen then 5th. I know there were some good weather stall teams last gen but this gen I find it is far easier to use a wider variety of defensive based pokes in ou this gen since the weather meta is no longer holding them back. Also fairy types nerfing fighting types (close combat) and making it so just spamming outrage is no longer as viable of option. I feel makes this meta much easier to stall in. edit: They also added more defensive pokes this gen and weakened many of the powerful moves such as hydro pump and ice beam

I also want to add that I feel this gen is already far better then gen 5 ou.

 

[zachmac]

Gen 6 OU is the most offensively based OU since Gen 1

1. Mega Evolutions are powerful stat wise, but most miss the lack of Life Orb when it comes to nuking everything. This gives them an advantage of bulk.
2. The introduction of faries hurt offense, not helped it. Now it's far less easy to drop around Outrage and Draco Meteor everywhere. Dragons and Fighting types were actually the most dangerous of offensive pokemon.
3. The weather nerf also helped stall more then it hurt it. Now we don't have base 180 Hydro Pumps and Fire Blast running around everywhere.
4. Stall isn't the only form of defense. Bulky Offense(which is more defensive) and Semi-Stall were not hurt nearly as much by Defog.

 

[danilo]

I think more bulky offensive teams are the way to go right now. I feel that it's tough to be consistent with an offensive team due to the presence of Aegislash and Thundurus. Aegi can switch into a lot of offensive threats and most offensive teams i've seen have trouble switching into Aegi. Thundurus' priority wave, and just its presence in general, is really annoying for offense. People have gone to the lengths of using Wacan Manaphy to lure and beat it. I like Thundurus though; without it a lot of these offensive pokemon would be near unbearable.

 

[Terminate421]

Trick Room is still a viable tactic. There has seen an increase in pokemon with "dropped" speed enough to warrant keeping an eye out for it.

Brave Mega-Chomp is one that I've been experimenting with high success.

 

[Photofluid]

1. Mega Evolutions are powerful stat wise, but most miss the lack of Life Orb when it comes to nuking everything. This gives them an advantage of bulk.
2. The introduction of faries hurt offense, not helped it. Now it's far less easy to drop around Outrage and Draco Meteor everywhere. Dragons and Fighting types were actually the most dangerous of offensive pokemon.
3. The weather nerf also helped stall more then it hurt it. Now we don't have base 180 Hydro Pumps and Fire Blast running around everywhere.
4. Stall isn't the only form of defense. Bulky Offense(which is more defensive) and Semi-Stall were not hurt nearly as much by Defog.

1. While the sheer power of the Megas does not necessarily increases compared to top LO threats, the same does not apply to their stall breaking ability, things like Megapinsir and Mixed Megachomp are simply painful to stall against(and unlikely to get ban). On the other hand, the fact that Mega does not switch in with increased defensive stats, and that they inherently misses leftover means that Megas are offensive in nature.
2. On paper faries are the best defensive typing along side steel, in realistic most faries are simply fragile on the physical side, and aims more at surviving a blow and fight back more than actually stalling out the game. And, to begin with, dragon type was not really that much a problem for defensive teams with so many steels running around.
3. I agree with you at this point
4. I don't see how bulky offensive can be more defensive
4.1 Defog does not necessarily hurt stalling that much, and switch focus stalling really appreciates its better distribution. It does hurt spikes a lot, but partially cancelled out by having more viable spikers (Chesnaught, Klefki), and was not something being relied so heavily to begin with.

However, there are something that you miss out.
1. The nerf to steel is simply terrible, I don't really think I need a second word about it
2. The buff to Knock off simply hurts. Not having leftover turns out to be crippling to certain defensive mon (e.g. Heatran). And we have yet to consider that it is an almost 100 BP nuke which gets through steel.
3. While we have increasing number of threats to be walled each generation, we still have only 6 teamslots, which means that the introduction of every new generation tends to favour offensive side inherently. This may be some how neutralised with some minor changes. Yet overall this generation is actually quite disappointing for stall players, as we do not really have much new toys to play with. Consider how we at least have Ferrothorn in last gen.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

No one has mentioned the IMMENSE buff to trapping moves namely infestation, they are now doing 1/8th damge per turn and that can stack with a status,leech seed, etc... It is just too easy to switch into a defensive mon like tangrowth, trap your opponent, put em to sleep or leech seed and they are dead, everytime. Anyway the other thing that I wish to emphasize is the impact assault vest is having on the meta game, now there are pokes that had decent bulk that are complete special walls that can hit very hard like conkeldurr for example. Anyway I would like to see more discussion about trapping and assault vest/Bulky Mons

 

[SansNickel]

Trick Room is still a viable tactic. There has seen an increase in pokemon with "dropped" speed enough to warrant keeping an eye out for it.

Brave Mega-Chomp is one that I've been experimenting with high success.

I actually kind of disagree. I ran trick room last gen and got to ~1950, and this gen although I can hit 1900 (pokebank, haven't laddered since reset), it seems a lot more difficult. The reason for this is because:
1. Talonflame and other priority is getting more common.
2. Aegislash also carries priority, and hits many TR setters super effectively (almost all of them are psychic, normal, or ghost). The fairy types that set it are still owned by iron head / flash cannon variants.
3. The many slower pokemon actually means TR is more unreliable. The chance of your opponent having a slower pokemon than you is much higher, meaning you're actually limited to the really slow pokemon sometimes. Last gen, everything was super fast, so even negative natured 0 IV spe base 100s were viable.

 

[AOPSUser]

Gen 1 OU was a stall metagame lol. Chansey, Alakazam, Golem, and Rhydon made life really hard for offense back then. It wasn't as stall as Gen 2 because of all the crits and freezes, but when games boil down to "freeze the other guy's Chansey", you know it's pretty stally.

Stall is still viable in Gen 6, however. It's just that it's harder for Stall to punish Defoggers, so you mostly see Stall using status and only SR these days. Mega Venusaur was a giant boon to Stall teams.

Trick Room is still viable, it's just harder to run. Some of us like the challenge, and I've seen Trick Room RMTs that have hit 2000+

 

[doughboy]

Gen 1 wasn't an anything metagame. The list of viable pokemon was incredibly small. Pretty much pick 5 + Tauros and hope you get your crits with your speed and freezes with your beams. But this is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
_____________________________________

I think more bulky offensive teams are the way to go right now. I feel that it's tough to be consistent with an offensive team due to the presence of Aegislash and Thundurus. Aegi can switch into a lot of offensive threats and most offensive teams i've seen have trouble switching into Aegi. Thundurus' priority wave, and just its presence in general, is really annoying for offense. People have gone to the lengths of using Wacan Manaphy to lure and beat it. I like Thundurus though; without it a lot of these offensive pokemon would be near unbearable.

Let's not forget the massive presence of priority in the tier. No longer can you get by with running a team of glass canons because Talonflame will tear you a new one with those priority Brave Bird's behind an SD or a Choice Band. Aegislash, Talonflame, Azumarill, Mega-Lucario, Scizor, Extremespeed Genesect.... its hard not make a team with priority lol. Priority are the weakest moves found on offensively-inclined teams, making them one of the ideal switches to pivots such as defensive Rotom-W and Aegislash.

Without pivots, offensive teams just get interrupted by constant streams of priority. That is why you see Rotom-W just everywhere. A one stop shop for providing a check to Talonflame, Aegislash, and Scizor with his good bulk, typing, and Wil-o-wisp. Volt Switch serves to get the match back in your hands after you been forced out by priority.

 

[MikeDawg]

I think the metagame will inevitably settle into bulky offense, but at this point in time I think it's a rather poor idea given the need for speed control.

Lucario (pls don't leave us) et al mean that if you are slower and lack priority (slower than a very fast poke who may also have priority in luke's case) then you are getting 1hkod, regardless of how bulky you are and especially later in the game.

I've settled for checking Luke, for the sake of example, by having a faster (scarf, whatever) normal and steel resistant mon. It isn't ideal, but some smart switching can get rid of it every time, and until these threats leave or the metagame warps, I think full offense is a neccesity.

 

[Alejandro36]

However, there are something that you miss out.
1. The nerf to steel is simply terrible, I don't really think I need a second word about it
2. The buff to Knock off simply hurts. Not having leftover turns out to be crippling to certain defensive mon (e.g. Heatran). And we have yet to consider that it is an almost 100 BP nuke which gets through steel.
3. While we have increasing number of threats to be walled each generation, we still have only 6 teamslots, which means that the introduction of every new generation tends to favour offensive side inherently. This may be some how neutralised with some minor changes. Yet overall this generation is actually quite disappointing for stall players, as we do not really have much new toys to play with. Consider how we at least have Ferrothorn in last gen.

Well you have megavenusaur. This guy is really huge in stall teams. Unless you have flying or psychic, or a very heavy hitter, you are not getting past venusaur.

There is also the very existence of megalucario as a point against stall. Against a defensive team is not hard to find a pokemon that is unable to 2HKO lucario and just set up on it (mandibutt, chansey without t-wave, florges, etc). After a set up lucario can easily OHKO the entire metagame. Megagarchomp is also a pokemon that gives nightmares to stall, since he has a very good movepool and hits very hard on both sides with 170 Atk and 120 SpAtk

 

[Photofluid]

I think the metagame will inevitably settle into bulky offense, but at this point in time I think it's a rather poor idea given the need for speed control.

Lucario (pls don't leave us) et al mean that if you are slower and lack priority (slower than a very fast poke who may also have priority in luke's case) then you are getting 1hkod, regardless of how bulky you are and especially later in the game.

I've settled for checking Luke, for the sake of example, by having a faster (scarf, whatever) normal and steel resistant mon. It isn't ideal, but some smart switching can get rid of it every time, and until these threats leave or the metagame warps, I think full offense is a neccesity.

Even without Luke and the omnipresent of TF, priority still receives some indirect buffs this gen, mostly in the form of sucker punch, not only that it now gets pass steel, but that a whole lot more pokemon manage to utilize it, including Kang(banned), Mawile, and the less common but even more powerful Bisharp and Mega Absol. Even things like aqua jet are much more usable, most notable Azumarill(the belly drum set) and adaptability Crabdaunt(luckily it does not have sucker punch just yet). And shadow sneak Aegislash is certainly a thing we must not overlook.

Well you have megavenusaur. This guy is really huge in stall teams. Unless you have flying or psychic, or a very heavy hitter, you are not getting past venusaur.

There is also the very existence of megalucario as a point against stall. Against a defensive team is not hard to find a pokemon that is unable to 2HKO lucario and just set up on it (mandibutt, chansey without t-wave, florges, etc). After a set up lucario can easily OHKO the entire metagame. Megagarchomp is also a pokemon that gives nightmares to stall, since he has a very good movepool and hits very hard on both sides with 170 Atk and 120 SpAtk

Megavenusaur is a point, yet I personally disregard it so I just omit it. It does have great neutral typing, but the resistances are not exactly powerful, which only includes water, fight and possibly grass, electric is a much lesser concern this gen IMO, with less rain thunder. It does possess a certain degree of versatility but that unfortunately does not includes much support to the team. But still, I agree that it is arguably the single most well rounded tank in the entire meta so it still contributes.

Mega lucario is intentionally skipped as I am sure it will be suspected soon. Its present alone provides 50% chance of at least severely damaging your team if you guess its set wrong, that is not even counting those less common set(and I find HJK and Blaze kick after checking serebii = =, that forgos Ice punch though), which can be used by LO Lucario to catch people off guard.

 

[Tesung]

It's really deosharp that is pushing the meta to hyper offense, that combo is just so good and hard to deal with for stall

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

It's really deosharp that is pushing the meta to hyper offense, that combo is just so good and hard to deal with for stall

Ive only seen that like twice, I doubt it is pushing the whole meta to HO

 

[AOPSUser]

Ive only seen that like twice, I doubt it is pushing the whole meta to HO

Doesn't matter how often you see it, it just matters how good it is, and how much it is used overall. I imagine DeoSharp is very popular nowadays, especially with this initial Defog hype. Skarmory, Mew, and Whirlwind Mandibuzz are the only Defoggers that can actually beat Bisharp.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Deo harp gets beat by volcarona, singlehandedly. Not to mention what AV conk does to it with the knock off buff and bisharp exploding by any fighting move.

Both volcarona and conk are way more common from my experience and easily handle that duo

 

[Photofluid]

Deo harp gets beat by volcarona, singlehandedly. Not to mention what AV conk does to it with the knock off buff and bisharp exploding by any fighting move.

Both volcarona and conk are way more common from my experience and easily handle that duo

I think that is already good enough for a pokemon to make at least low OU, and we are already seeing continue increase of defog usage compare to the beginning of the meta. And Bisharp alone makes it that much more difficult to do so. I think it is safe to compare it with mamoswine last gen.

Also, specifically for Volcarona, it definitely does not appreciate +2 sucker punch at all so I don't think it is that much an issue(mind games is not very reliable). Plus you don't really want to use Volcarona as your defogger anyway.

 

[Magnemite]

I've been playing a bit of bulky offense lately, and I definitely disagree that it is the best or most dominant playstyle. There are tons of insanely powerful sweepers right now such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Lucario that you simply need to outspeed or in some cases outprioritize them in order to beat them if you lack a hard counter because they are just too strong to be able to beat just by tanking their hits. Bulky offense is still pretty good, don't get me wrong, but certain sweepers can almost feel like an auto-loss for some teams.

Hyper offense, on the other hand, is incredible right now. Both of the Deoxys forms are absolutely fantastic at guaranteeing SR and at least one layer of Spikes with their fast Taunts and great bulk / unmatchable Speed. Defog is an issue, but with Deo-D outspeeding all relevant Defoggers outside of the very (very) rare Mew and Deoxys-S outspeeding all relevant.. well, everything, Taunting Defog users isn't exactly a challenge for these two. In addition, the incredibly dangerous Bisharp is on many Hyper Offense teams and punishes Defog like nothing else, giving the opposition the option of either letting hazards stay up or losing half their team to a +2 Bisharp. Not only that, but strong setup sweepers such as Mega Lucario and Manaphy can just set up in the face of defog users and steamroll teams. The fact that these teams also have the extremely versatile revenge killer Genesect at their disposal only makes things better for hyper offense.

 

[Photofluid]

I've been playing a bit of bulky offense lately, and I definitely disagree that it is the best or most dominant playstyle. There are tons of insanely powerful sweepers right now such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Lucario that you simply need to outspeed or in some cases outprioritize them in order to beat them if you lack a hard counter because they are just too strong to be able to beat just by tanking their hits. Bulky offense is still pretty good, don't get me wrong, but certain sweepers can almost feel like an auto-loss for some teams.

Hyper offense, on the other hand, is incredible right now. Both of the Deoxys forms are absolutely fantastic at guaranteeing SR and at least one layer of Spikes with their fast Taunts and great bulk / unmatchable Speed. Defog is an issue, but with Deo-D outspeeding all relevant Defoggers outside of the very (very) rare Mew and Deoxys-S outspeeding all relevant.. well, everything, Taunting Defog users isn't exactly a challenge for these two. In addition, the incredibly dangerous Bisharp is on many Hyper Offense teams and punishes Defog like nothing else, giving the opposition the option of either letting hazards stay up or losing half their team to a +2 Bisharp. Not only that, but strong setup sweepers such as Mega Lucario and Manaphy can just set up in the face of defog users and steamroll teams. The fact that these teams also have the extremely versatile revenge killer Genesect at their disposal only makes things better for hyper offense.

The things you are talking about are really constrained to a rather small proportion of fast pokemon which also happen to have prority move. HO pokemon in general, including things like Keldeo, Terraskion, Starmie, etc, all suffers from a meta with so many priority move and the omnipresent of Talonflame. Powerful revenge killers actually HURTS HO more than helping it, as HO pokemon are way more fragile in general, while bulky offensive tends to be very difficult to revenge kill(think about Kang and Dragonite).

Also, while you can definitely taunt the defoggers, you need to have your taunter out at the first place, and can not be block by simply switching in ghost, so in general EH is still whole lot more manageable than it used to. It just takes people some time to reshape their mind set not to use EH what so ever that defog does not see much usage in the first few months.

The point of Bisharp is valid though, but Bisharp happens to be hard-countered by fight types like Lucario, Conk and Breloom so things are not exactly out of control.

 

[Raikaria]

My opinion of Gen 6 is twofold:

Gen 6 is the Generation of Priority; and this has some surprising effects; such as making slower; bulky attackers better than before. Having all the speed in the world isn't that important when there is Scizor; Azumarill; Talonflame and Ageislash priority-hitting everything with either incredibly powerful attacks or incredible attack stats. Priority shapes this metagame. Those 4 pokemon shape the metagame.

This is made even more notable by the fact that all 4 of these pokemon can set-up. Swords Dance for the Steels; Belly Drum Azumarill and Bulk Up/SD Talonflame. Hell; a case can be made for things such as SD Adaptabilty Crawdaunt; SD MegaPinsir and of course; while banned now; PuP MegaKhan.


Gen 6 is far more enjoyable than the weather wars of Gen 5. I can only imagine Gen 5 OU without the weather; and swamped with less priority.

Stall is as dead as it was in Gen 5; the complete lack of assistance to Stall and Stall Mega-Evos sealed this. When the best thing stall got all Gen was Klefki you know it's bad when Offense got things like Talonflame.

The meta is very physically based since physical bulk is required to survive the priority. Special attackers seem to catch people off-guard in fact. I've been running an offensive LO Espeon with great effect recently; because no-one seems to expect it. They all think 'Duel Screens so set-up priority user can come in'. Nope. And that Espeon just took out 2 of your team.

At most I see 1 special attacker and 1 Mixed Wallbreaker or Utility-Special Attacker [Like Rotom-W].

Due to the heavily physical nature of the meta; the high amount of priority; and the resulting reduction on speed emphasis; Burn has overtaken Paralysis as the most common and crippling status condition. Whereas before special attackers would make Burn spamming less of an issue; the physical nature of the meta means few special attackers are being run now.

Also the nerf to special-moves dosen't help special attackers.

Also this isn't a HO Meta; it's a BO Meta.

 

[scene]

ditto is incredibly good and should be used more, it's a cute blob-shaped little safety net that beats half the meta on its own and means your opponent can't set up with anything - plus you can scout movesets, bypass the mega limit and generally be an edgy user!

 

[56k]

Stall is ok I guess but team match-up punishes it harder than other playstyles. If you're playing a more balanced team, even if you're majorly disadvantaged at team preview you can eke out wins with crucial substitutes, thunder-waves, speed bluffs, mixed offensive threats, voltturns, double switches, surprise boosting, sacrifices for momentum, trick, priority moves, etc. A whole mixed bag of tools. Stall however will frequently run into random unpredictable wallbreakers that have just the stats to sweep through you on turn 1, and sacrificing something to get your check in safely (as if you could possibly have a counter to everything from automotize genesect to nasty plot celebi to swords dance pinsir to calm mind Landorus-I) just snowballs into getting crushed. However you'll stall out the next guy who doesn't quite have an answer to your ferrothorn. Gen 6 just added more fuel to the fire as far as pokemon that just 2hko everything. I've gotten just barely up to 2000 with stall but seem to hit a glass ceiling there.