OverUsed General Discussion

[Subject 18]

What's New in XY?

A lot of things are new in XY. There are Mega Evolutions, change in game mechanics, new pokemon, the rise of several lower tier Pokemon, the drop of several pokemon that were deemed Ubers in BW2 and much more.

Mega Evolutions

Mega Evolutions was the single biggest change that was introduced this Gen. These Mega Pokemon have have had a noticeable impact on the current meta. Despite not having the ability to hold items such as Life Orb, many of the Megas have abilities and moves that compensate for the lack of an item. Such as Mega Charizard X's Tough Claws or Mega Pinsir's Aerilate compensate for the lack of Life Orb. Mega Venusaur does have access to Synthesis for its Recovery and Mega Mawile has Huge Power to skyrocket its attack.

New Pokemon

With a new generation of Pokemon, there are always Pokemon that will come out on top and have their respective impact on the OU metagame.

Talonflame had a major impact on the early meta forcing people to scramble to find good Flying resists such as Rotom-W, Tyranitar and Thundurus to help keep Talonflame in check. Its impact didnt stop there, it also created an emphasis on the use of priority in this metagame and the reduced number of scarf users.

Aegislash thrives in a metagame where Ghost resistances are scarce. With great bulk and multiple of sets its able to run, it quickly found its place as one of the most used Pokemon so far in OU. Having changed from commonly running only a Swords Dance set to a Mixed Shadow Ball set, and now the rising popularity of SubToxic, Aegislash's role is constantly evolving.


Former Ubers

With every new generation, many of the previously banned Pokemon are given a chance in the OU metagame. The nerf weather to permanent weather granted a second chance to Excadrill, Thundurus-I, and Manaphy have all dropped down to OU. Each now being considerably less broken then they previously were in BW. Thundurus and Manaphy don't have easy access to Rain as they did and Excadrill misses out on Sand to abuse Sand Rush.

On the other hand Deoxys-Speed and Deoxys-Defense are now a bit weaker due to the changes in Defog. Having great speed and amazing coverage, Deoxys-Speed has now taken the role of a revenge killer that beats more Dragon Dance users and every relevant scarf user. Deoxys-Defense has not changed one bit from its role in BW2. It still sets up hazards with great success and only faces Defog users as trouble. However pairing Deo-D with a Defiant user such as Thundurus-I or Bisharp, you can easily pressure Defor users to not defog and make them pay for going for the Defog.

New Threats

Several pokemon that saw little use in OU last generation, are now having their moments in the limelight, including Bisharp, Clefable, Mandibuzz.

Bisharp greatly benefits in the current meta, considering how common Defog has become. If hit have Defog, Bisharp receives a +2 in Atk and can easily dent at team with Knock Off being only resisted by Fighting types, Dark types and Fairies, who fear its Steel STAB). Bisharp has found its niche on Hyper Offensive teams to punish Defog users and as a Pursuit trapper for Keldeo and Zard Y.

Clefable received a retyping this generation. Now being Fairy type and getting some fairy STABs, Clefable steadily rose from RU to be a asset for Stall, Balance and Semi-Stall teams as a cleric or an Unaware Calm Mind sweeper. Providing great utility and solid bulk it has solidified itself in the OU tier.

Weather Nerf

Probably the second biggest change in XY was the reduced emphasis on weather control. This was mainly due to permanent weather abilities being nerfed from infinite weather to only 5 turns or 8 turns with the appropriate weather item. While this has deterred players from using weather as often, it still is a very potent playstyle, specifically rain.


Your Opinions

So, what do all of you think and feel about this? What has been working for you, both in terms of the new threats and in terms of stopping them? What interests you that you want to try? What Pokemon have fallen out of flavor from BW2? Don't restrict yourselves to what I've talked about here either. Feel free to discuss new things I might have overlooked!

Discuss.

 

[Tomahawk]

For me the former Uber Pokémon I've most enjoyed using so far is Landorus-I. It is one of the hardest Pokémon to counter, and in my opinion the hardest Pokémon to counter outside of Mega Evolutions. Its special set is great, I've been using a Modest nature for a bit as well, and with it there isn't much that can avoid the 2HKO. Goodra and Trevenant are the only (somewhat) common Pokémon that can avoid the 2HKO from Modest Landorus, it even has a solid chance of 2HKOing Chansey after just Stealth Rock and no other prior damage (though Focus Blast's accuracy kind of ruins this). The same goes for something like 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Slowking, it still has a 47.7% chance of being 2HKOed after Stealth Rock and Leftovers.

Though it obviously isn't unstoppable, (especially with Modest) something like Latias can take a hit and outspeed. Though, Sludge Wave 2HKOes after Stealth Rock and Leftovers, so Latias is pretty much forced to Roost giving you a free switchin. Also, I've been using Choice Band Landorus, which can be surprisingly effective. It's obviously not as good as special sets, but with Sand Force it can still dish out super powerful hits. Heck, 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hippowdon is 2HKOed by Earthquake after Stealth Rock. Common Landorus switchins that expect the special set really take a hit as well: Latios is always OHKOed by U-turn after Stealth Rock, and 252 HP Goodra is OHKOed by Earthquake even without Stealth Rock up.

 

[Halcyon.]

For me the former Uber Pokémon I've most enjoyed using so far is Landorus-I. It is one of the hardest Pokémon to counter, and in my opinion the hardest Pokémon to counter outside of Mega Evolutions. Its special set is great, I've been using a Modest nature for a bit as well, and with it there isn't much that can avoid the 2HKO. Goodra and Trevenant are the only (somewhat) common Pokémon that can avoid the 2HKO from Modest Landorus, it even has a solid chance of 2HKOing Chansey after just Stealth Rock and no other prior damage (though Focus Blast's accuracy kind of ruins this). The same goes for something like 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Slowking, it still has a 47.7% chance of being 2HKOed after Stealth Rock and Leftovers.

Though it obviously isn't unstoppable, (especially with Modest) something like Latias can take a hit and outspeed. Though, Sludge Wave 2HKOes after Stealth Rock and Leftovers, so Latias is pretty much forced to Roost giving you a free switchin. Also, I've been using Choice Band Landorus, which can be surprisingly effective. It's obviously not as good as special sets, but with Sand Force it can still dish out super powerful hits. Heck, 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hippowdon is 2HKOed by Earthquake after Stealth Rock. Common Landorus switchins that expect the special set really take a hit as well: Latios is always OHKOed by U-turn after Stealth Rock, and 252 HP Goodra is OHKOed by Earthquake even without Stealth Rock up.

Building off this, I think Calm Mind Landorus is really good at the moment. When combined with other powerful special attacker such as Keldeo or Charizard Y, it can easily break through the supposed counters to these Pokemon. This works especially well with either Bisharp or Aegislash to operate as Pursuit trappers for faster Pokemon like Lati@s, as well as chipping away at Blissey (iirc Bisharp's Pursuit does around 40%).

The point of this is that I think this meta game is defined at the moment by similar, yet imo more efficient, cores from late BW2 with Tyranitar / Keldeo / Landorus. We now have better trappers, fewer Pokemon that wall these cores (Latias and Chansey are really the only viable Pokemon that stop Charizard Y for example). This generation took a while for special attackers to take the stage, as Pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame skewed the defensive side of things to physical in the beginning of the generation, but it's interesting to see now how the meta game is shifting in the opposite direction, imo.

 

[Gary]

One thing that I found interesting in X and Y is how Thundurus went from being way too powerful for OU in 5th gen to one of the healthiest Pokemon in the tier. With Choice Scarf Pokemon being much less relevant now because of priority, sweepers such as Dragonite, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Gyarados can often be very difficult to revenge kill once they start setting up, and thanks to their great natural bulk, priority isn't always going to save your ass. Thundurus on the other hand, has the ability to prevent any sweeper from plowing through offensive teams with its access to the coveted Prankster Thunder Wave, allowing it to stop these Pokemon dead in their tracks no matter how many boosts they've managed to obtain. It's crazy that even Thundurus presence on teams makes players wary of sweeping, because they take the risk of having their win condition being neutered for the rest of the match. On top of this, Thundurus just spreads paralysis so easily and is able to slow down offensive teams to a point where a slower teammate can clean up. It's just such a great tool for offense, because it keeps fast HO from just setting up all the time.

It's also quite astounding how easily Thundurus has been adapting to the defensive metagame. Before now, people used to be able to bring in Mega Venusaur, Conkeldurr, Chansey, and Latias without much fear. Nowadays, Thundurus has been running Nasty Plot sets with Psychic or HP Flying to smash Mega Venusaur and Conkeldurr, and people have even started using mixed sets with Knock Off to lure in Chansey as well as Latias. And of course, we cant forget about the infamous Bulk Up Power Herb physical set that basically screws over nearly all of its common counters. Just switch Thundurus into an unsuspecting Defog, and watch in awe as it proceeds to pummel Mega Venusaur with a +2 Fly and Latias with Knock Off. This makes it a great partner to Pokemon such as Keldeo or Manaphy, because its able to easily lure in their common counters and OHKO them.

All in all, Thundurus has proven itself to be an amazing addition to the X and Y metagame, and it's definitely been one of the most influential Pokemon so far.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I think one of the best Pokemon that hasn't been listed as a new threat in the OP is Azumarill. Azumarill has been getting better with every generation, and generation 6 granted Azumarill the new Fairy typing, solidifying it's status in the OU tier. Azumarill's typing is incredible both defensively and offensively, and with it's respectable 100 / 80 / 80 Defenses, Azumarill doesn't find it that hard to switch into resisted attacks at all. It's typing alone allows Azumarill to check some of the most dangerous threats in the tier, like Keldeo, Grenenija, Latios, Charizard-X, and Mega Gyarados.

Apart from it's incredible typing, Azumarill has a gigantic attack stat (factoring Huge Power, of course), allowing it to fill to major roles in today's metagame. Azumarill can act as a wall breaker with a Choice Band set, or it can act as a sweeper with it's Belly Drum set. The Choice Band set opens up holes nicely for another sweeper on your team, like Mega Mawlie, since Azumarill deals with most of it's checks or puts then at low enough range for Mega Mawlie to over power (Rotom-W, Heatran, and Landorus-T). The BellyDrum set is generally a flat out sweeper, and anything that it can't OHKO with Aqua Jet is gonna take a chunk from a +6 Play Rough / Waterfall. Apart from the two main sets, there's also the lesser used but legit Assault Vest Azumarill, which makes it a great offensive pivot, allowing it to switch into attacks more easily.

Overall, I think Azumarill right now is a dominating force in the metagame, and it usually can find it's place on most balance and offensive teams.

 

[doughboy]

ShootingStarmie I think dominating is an overstatement. While it has the raw power, I find that defensive teams still have the capability to check it consistently with Mega-Venusaur, Skarmory, Slowbro (Superpower), and Ferrothorn (Knock Off) because it lacks a super-effective move against them (all of them a good choices for a defensive team). Bulkier offensive teams can check it well with Rotom-W and Aegislash, two of the most common pivots in the metagame right now. TBH I think the Belly Drum sweeper isn't that great of a set. It is a very high-risk sweeper to use because if the opponent predicts you to BD or if you find yourself below 50% because of hazards + a hit you can't set up. You take on all that risk for a sweeper that can be outprioritized easily by offensive teams (Sharp Beak BB from Adamant Talonflame does 62%-73% to 92 HP BD Azu) that can chip away until it goes down, which is usually two priority hits. This isn't considering the offensive Pokemon it can't one shot with Aqua Jet such as Lati@s, Manaphy, and Keldeo (44% with specs hydro pump). Basically what I am trying to say is that there are a lot more powerful sweepers out there which could use the free turn that BD Azumarill requires to set up much more efficiently, or do not need a free turn to set up at all.

In addition you can't use Azumarill's best quality, pivoting into attacks with its amazing defensive typing, because you will jeopardize your ability to set up a Belly Drum.

Subject 18 Don't forget the absolutely most important change in XY: the auto-weather nerf from infinite ---> 5 turns. No more of the weather-based bullcrap that was everywhere last gen. I think mechanic changes would fit nicely in the OP in addition to the Pokemon that were introduced. The weather nerf, Knock Off buff, and Defog buff are some of the most important mechanic changes that defined this gen.

 

[Typhlito]

As powerful mega pincir can be, its source of power is also its greatest weakness. Its new flying typing along with aerialate gave it a stab return to work with. We already know how powerful a stab flying type move can be. We seen hurricanus and talonflame do work on many pokemon and pincir is now able to do it as well. It also has a priority stab quick attack to nail faster pokemon although its optimal to set up with swords dance first before trying to revenge kill with quick attack. However that bug/flying typing does come back haunt it since stealth rocks take a huge chunk of its hp and it has no form of recovery at all outside of rest. So it heavily relies on its teammates to keep the field clear which isnt always possible.

While Im talking about bugs, another big player of ou deserves a mention and that player is Mega Scizor.

Scizor returns from BW2 doing what it does best; sweeping with a +2 bullet punch. Unlike the other megas which received new abilities to help compensate for their inability to hold items, scizor sticks with the classics and uses its technician. This is by no means a bad thing since scizor would probably be somewhat worse without tech. However, it does end up being weaker than a life orb scizor. Doubt it minds though since it doesnt have to deal with the recoil and it does gain defensive bulk that's as good as a skarm. That kind of bulk plus a form of recovery gave it more opportunities to set up or switch in than regular scizor ever had. Unfortunately, too many new pokemon such as talon and ageislash wall its bullet punch these days (although both do not enjoy getting hit by a knock off/thief on the switch in) so it has taken up some other options. It makes a decent user of defog due to its immunity to t spikes and neutrality to stealth rocks. While it would rather not deal with bisharp, its +2 sucker punch fails to ohko while scizor's superpower knocks it out right away. So mega scizor is no doubt up to par with the other megas.

 

[Magnemite]

One thing about XY that is a huge turnaround from BW is how successful stall is. This is mainly due to the major balance changes that the sixth generation brought. The most prominent of these are the weather nerf, the Defog buff, and the inclusion of the new Fairy-type.

The weather nerf has made stall much better as it no longer has to deal with insanely powerful weather-boosted attacks or pack multiple checks to dangerous weather sweepers such as Venusaur and Thundurus-T. In addition, the lack of sand allows stall to run Chansey instead of Blissey much more frequently without having to worry about it being worn down by sand or (lol) hail damage. Defog has also been a huge buff for stall. Not only is it much easier to remove hazards as Defog is unblockable, but there is a much larger pool of viable hazard removers now. Instead of needing to run something like Tentacruel, stall teams can now remove hazards with great defensive Pokemon such as Skarmory, Zapdos, or Mandibuzz. One of the biggest buffs to stall is the inclusion of the Fairy-type, and more specifically, the huge buff to Clefable. The introduction of a second viable Unaware user is phenomenal and makes it significantly harder to just muscle through stall with a strong setup sweeper, as many setup sweepers are hard-walled by either Clefable of Quagsire. Clefable also functions as a solid win condition for stall teams with Calm Mind. Aditionally, its immunity to Dragon allows stall to have a much better time with Dragon spam teams and monsterous threats such as Kyurem-B.

Overall, stall has gone from being almost a complete joke in BW to being one of the best and most reliable team archetypes in XY. There are also several other buffs to stall that I haven't even mentioned (specifically Mega Venusaur). The turnaround of stall has been huge and is one of the many reasons why XY is so much more of a balanced metagame than BW.

 

[MattL]

As we think about how Gen 6 has changed compared to Gen 5, weather is a natural topic given that it dominated Gen 5. Clearly, the fact that automatic weather only lasts 5 (8) turns deters people from using weather teams. However, this is good in a way for weather users because there's relatively little competition, as in if you have a weather user, you often don't have to compete against other weather to get your weather up. Even though Abomasnow got a Mega Evolution, Hail still is definitely the worst weather. (Mega) Abomasnow isn't amazing, Hail stall is nonexistent now, and the only benefits are Blizz-spam and a little chip damage. As far as Sun goes, the biggest buff it got was definitely Mega Charizard-Y, which is a fantastic Pokemon. Ninetales is horrible, but if you want to make a full Sun team, just having Mega Charizard-Y doesn't cut it unless you have other Pokemon who know Sunny Day. Mega Charizard-Y is more self-sufficient; it mainly uses Sun to help it wallbreak rather than provide weather support to the rest of the team. I barely see any full-on Sun teams. Sand is cool since Hippowdown, Tyranitar, and Mega Tyranitar are all awesome. Sand is somewhat prevalent, but I see it more as just something nice to have for a few of your Pokemon than something you should build entire teams around. There are a couple of good Sand Force users like Landorus-I and Mega Garchomp as well as Sand Rush Excadrill, but a lot of Sand's use comes from chip damage and the Special Defense boost for Rock-types (TTar).

Rain continues to be a fantastic weather and full Rain teams can be very threatening. Personally, it's the only weather I've used in Gen 6 (I mean, I've used Hippo, TTar, and Mega Zard-Y on my teams, but I used them for reasons other than the weather they bring). Since you only have a limited number of turns, you definitely need to go with pretty heavy offense to take advantage of the weather while it lasts. It's actually not that much of a problem though, because in my experience, 8 turns is a long time when your team is so offensive and has such as advantage during that time. Despite the fact that HO Rain is one playstyle of one weather, there's still quite a bit of variety you can have. Politoed is obviously a must, but that's fine because it's not a horrible Pokemon; it has good enough physical bulk and a nice support moves like Encore and Perish Song (Scald is also pretty nice in general). No more permanent rain means that Swift Swim + Drizzle isn't completely broken and thus is allowed, which is fantastic because there are 3 good Swift Swim Pokemon that actually are all relatively different: Kabutops, Omastar, and Kingdra. Kabutops has powerful STAB attacks, a pretty good Attack stat, and STAB, Rain-boosted priority. Omastar is the strongest of the three and can use Shell Smash or Specs very well, with its good coverage and high damage output. Kingdra has fantastic STAB options and can go mixed too to wallbreak/clean (Dragon Dance is cool but not quite as good of a boosting move in the Rain + Swift Swim contexts as Swords Dance or Shell Smash).

Thundurus-I is one of the tier's best Pokemon in general, Life Orb Thunder hurts, and priority Thunder Wave is always nice, especially for wallbreakers like Keldeo, whose Choice Specs set is ridiculously powerful in the Rain. Tornadus and Tornadus-T are great for spamming Hurricane, and the genies in general aren't bad choices for a secondary Rain-inducer. Compared to Gen 5, Pokemon with Water Absorb and Storm Drain are more rare, partially due to Rain no longer being centralizing, allowing it to be easier to spam Water attacks. The popularity of Rotom-W really sucks though, as its Water and Flying resistances, bulk, and access to Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp makes it somewhat problematic for many of the Pokemon on Rain teams. Overall, I feel that although Rain teams have their shortcomings, they can be very threatening due to the huge advantage they have while the weather is up, and again, if you're constantly applying lots of offensive pressure during the Rain like you should be, 8 turns is often long enough to put huge dents in teams or finish them off altogether.

 

[Typhlito]

Weather also has a perk at controlling how much hp mega venusaur can recover. If you are running mega venusaur under the sun (although it would have to be with ninetales or another sunny day setter) then it would usually recover back to full hp. However in the rain or sand, its recovery is dropped down to just 25% which would make venusaur have to waste its limited pp's. Its synthesis only has 8 pp iirc so it wont be too difficult to pp stall its form of recovery. Just by using weather, you could turn something unkillable to something much more manageable.

Oh man, the power of azumarill under the rain would be a force to be reckoned with. Wouldnt want to get nailed by its banded waterfalls thats for sure. To be honest, I wouldnt be surprised if weather regains some of its popularity because it still has great utility. A large chunk of it has already been mentioned. But yeah, there are even more pokemon in xy that can benefit from weather than in bw regardless of the nerf. I have seen people use double setters (like ttar and mega zard Y) as a mean to reset their weather counter; something that was probably considered a gimmick last gen so the nerf is more like an obstacle than anything else. Weather is definitely still viable.

 

[Cherub Agent]

I'm really really enjoying the OU metagame at the moment, so much so that I've taken up laddering again, because it's just not as painful an experience as it was in BW. The new Defog and Weather mechanics just make games so much more enjoyable, as hazard stacking and weather wars made BW nigh unenjoyable to me. But the new mechanic of mega evolutions is what makes OU so much fun for me, and is a niche that it will almost certainly keep over the lower tiers to come, as Pokemon with mega evolutions will receive so much more usage.

When it really comes down to it, I'd say that my absolute favorite mega evolutions are Tyranitar and Pinsir. Tyranitar just has pure raw stats, enough Speed to outrun positive base 130s after a DD (only semi common thing faster is mega Manectric, which can't do much to a Tyranitar), absolutely ridiculous bulk on both sides, and that awesome power. Not only does it not need EV investment to be bulky, it's one of very few sweepers which cannot be revenge killed by Talonflame. I think that this point is really important, considering how many people just slap the bird on teams and then consider themselves safe from being swept. I always hear how Charizard X is the best Dragon Dancer, but I honestly can't say this (it's fantastic though, don't get me wrong). They both just have different benefits. My preferred set runs DD, Crunch, Ice Punch and Earthquake. Moves are pretty interchangeable of course, as Stone Edge is generally needed to break down Skarmory and Azumarill, but I prefer Ice Punch for Gliscor and Landorus-T. Just really depends on what your team can already cover. Best partner is honestly without a doubt Specs Keldeo. Tyranitar easily comes in on Keldeo checks and counters and sets up like the Latis and cuts mega Venusaur's recovery in half, while Keldeo easily OHKOs things that can take a +1 Tyranitar like Skarmory and Hippowdon. Got to beware of Scarf Ground-types like Excadrill and Landorus-T though when using Scarftar, so make sure you can have something to switch in on Ground- and Steel-type moves, possibly your own Landorus-T. Deviating here a bit but I personally love the combo of Scarf Excadrill and Band Talonflame, as together they can really insure that you won't get swept, not to mention how Excadrill still spins for Talonflame, meaning that you can thus use Spikes of your own and not have to run Defog.

Mega Pinsir is just a whole other monster altogether. It's one of the scariest of all mega evolutions to face, is one of the few Pokemon able to OHKO Conkeldurr and Venusaur, has priority to deal with faster Pokemon like Keldeo, surprisingly good bulk after mega evolving, and is imo best used on Flying-type spam teams (with Pokemon like Talonflame, Tornadus-T, Staraptor). Generally the best set is ofc SD, Return, Quick Attack and Earthquake, but I've used Close Combat a couple of times when paired with Talonflame, as I appreciate the ability to OHKO Tyranitar and severely weaken Rotom-W, if my endgame goal is to clean up with CB Brave Bird. Team needs to be able to deal with Aegislash though. Also gonna ping darkie, coz I know he used Thrash on his Pinsir (basically Outrage), but I always found that Return hit hard enough and I appreciated the ability to alternate attacks. The insane power of Thrash is impressive though. Regarding abilities, I've always used Hyper Cutter, as being able to totally avoid Landorus-T from forcing you out isfar more valuable from those very few times where you keep it non mega evolved to try to get a Moxie boost or hit Rotom with Earthquake. Also allows you to OHKO Gyarados with Return after Stealth Rock, with no boosts.

I really like the idea of this forum and will probably continue to post here, I've liked a lot of the ones above mine :)

 

[alexwolf]

Adding to what Gary said, Thundurus is just so unpredictable and powerful that i find myself using SpD Mega Charizard X most of the time on my defensive teams, just so that i can hard counter it. Checks such as Chansey and Mega Venusaur fear Knock off / Superpower and Psychic / Hidden Power Flying, and i believe Mega Charizard X is the only 100% counter to Thundurus, as far as good OU Pokemon go.

Another useful Pokemon i have been using on my stall teams is Timid Choice Specs Gothitelle with Psychic / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Fire / Trick. It can outspeed and OHKO / 2HKO any defensive Defog user, outside of Zapdos, which gets crippled by Trick. Offensive Defog users such as Latios and Latias are very easy to wear down or lure and status with Pokemon such as Skarmory. It also beats or cripple most clerics found on stall teams, namely Chansey, Blissey, and Sylveon, making the war of attrition much easier to win. Finally, Shadow Tag + Trick is a great way to deal with stallbreakers such as CM Suicune and CM Clefable.

My preferred set runs DD, Crunch, Ice Punch and Earthquake.

Why would you use Crunch instead of Stone Edge on a DD set? The only Pokemon against which Crunch is your best move are Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Slowbro, and Aegislash. But, Deoxys-S deals a minimum of 75% with LO Superpower and takes 88% minimum from Stone Edge, and is always OHKOed after the Superpower Defense drop, so you don't need Crunch for it. Most Deoxys-D run Thunder Wave, so sacrificing a great sweeper to maybe limit Deoxys-D to one layer of hazards isn't worth it, especially when considering that if the wrong Pokemon comes in after Red Card is used, Deoxys-D will set up two layers of hazards anyway. Against Aegislash, and assuming you have a DD boost or Aegislash is in Sword Forme (otherwise you can't OHKO no matter what), +1 Earthquake deals 84.5% damage minimum against 252 HP Aegislash-Shield, and always OHKOes Aegislash-Sword unboosted, while Crunch is also risky due to King's Shield. So, just do ~10-15% damage to Aegislash beforehand and you are ready to go, instead of having to play mind-games with Crunch for no real reason. Having a good chance to OHKO Slowbro at +1 after SR is the only reason to use Crunch, but who relies on Slowbro to check Mega Tyranitar anyway?

So, Crunch gives no benefit over Stone Edge other than perfect accuracy, while Stone Edge allows Mega Tyranitar to OHKO the following Pokemon at +1, which could otherwise dent it, OHKO it back, phaze, or cripple it: Mandibuzz (after SR), Azumarill (after SR for 252 HP variants), Manaphy (after SR), 252 HP Mega Venusaur (after two SR rounds and one turn of sand, as it switches in). Also, unboosted Stone Edge can 2HKO 252 HP Mega Scizor, physically defensive Sylveon, physically defensive Rotom-W, and Unaware physically defensive Clefable (all after SR), all of which are decent immediate switch-ins to Tyranitar. Finally, without Stone Edge, Mega Tyranitar can't counter Bulk Up Talonflame, a big threat to many teams.

tl;dr Stone Edge > Crunch

 

[Cherub Agent]

you certainly have a point alexwolf, thanks for showing me that. i personally just prefer a reliable STAB move that i can use to sweep with (having stone edge as one's only stab is just iffy to me, especially on a pokemon thats supposed to be your win condition :x) because my team is built to being able to kill off the things you mentioned. if it weren't so, id probably run stone edge, but as it is, i like the reliability of crunch

 

[BurningMan]

Also gonna ping darkie, coz I know he used Thrash on his Pinsir (basically Outrage), but I always found that Return hit hard enough and I appreciated the ability to alternate attacks. The insane power of Thrash is impressive though. Regarding abilities, I've always used Hyper Cutter, as being able to totally avoid Landorus-T from forcing you out isfar more valuable from those very few times where you keep it non mega evolved to try to get a Moxie boost or hit Rotom with Earthquake. Also allows you to OHKO Gyarados with Return after Stealth Rock, with no boosts.

Yeah Thrash is actually really good for breaking walls apart to sweep with Talonflame especially since flying is such an easy to spam type so the lock in isn't as bad. It isn't that great against more offensive teams however since Return+Quick attack has more power against offensive resists like thundy (and taking that bad boy out can often be crucial). As far as abilitys go i really like Mold Breaker simply because it puts a lot of pressure against Rotom-W who can't switch in completly safe anymore and it can often lead the the opponent to make bad decisions. Hyper Cutter is obviously neat although in practice it is often better to just straight out mega evolve against Lando-T and smash it with a return to soften in up for later in the match especially if you are using something like double bird. I think Moxie is actually really bad it is the most situational ability because the opportunities to kill something with an unstabbed Return/EQ with normal Pinsir are exceptionally rare and even if you manage to grab the boost, it is far from a guaranteed sweep since Mega Pinsirs counters are everywhere.

While Mega-Pinsir is still one of the most scary Pokemon to face the metagame is at the moment just too well prepared for it to be too effective outside of double bird cores, but thats where it is so dangerous that it is easiely one of the top predators of OU (although i really hate running this kind of team since 2* 4x SR weak Pokemon puts a lot of pressure on spinning/defog and thats something that can be easiely abused by a competent player).

Regarding the Stone Edge vs Crunch issue Stone Edge is technically a lot better, but that 80% accuracy on your main stab is just cruel and whenever i used it i sometimes found myself stupidly choking matches just to get into late game scenarios were i don't have to use it, if i decided to do a late game sweep with TTar. So i can definitelly feel with Cherub when he is hesitant to using it.

 

[doughboy]

Edit 2: swamp rocket informed me that double edge is illegal with quick attack. It is also illegal with feint. Ignore what I at about de but the rest is true

I would also like to mention that if you wanted to go completely kamikaze on Mega-Pinsir, you can run Double Edge (Hyper Cutter only; gen 3 move tutor). It is just as powerful as Thrash, but keeps the ability to switch moves after using it. Double Edge will cut down on Pinsir's survivability a lot however, since Pinsir has a low base HP. Return vs Double Edge vs Thrash is a "pick 2" decision between power, reliability, and survivability. Mega-Pinsir's power is really good even without using the 120 base power moves, but it goes from good to insane when using the 120 base power moves.

calcs

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Skarmory: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Skarmory: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Thrash vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Skarmory: 165-195 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Thrash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 165-194 (49.4 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

2HKO'ing max hp / max+ defense Skarmory on a resisted hit after SR is just insane. At +2 with Thrash and SR down, there is no defensive target that can stop the 2HKO. Even 252 HP Aegislash after using King's Shield won't be able to completely stop Thrash, it needs two minimum damage rolls (6+ 62 (min) + 31 (min) = 99%). Even if Aegislash does use King's Shield, it can actually reset the Thrash counter, allowing the Pinsir-user to get free from a Confusion chance and fire off an EQ.

Another interesting alternative move choice on Mega-Pinsir is Feint. In exchange for a 25% drop in power from Quick Attack (40 bp to 30 bp), you move up from +1 on the priority bracket to +2. The use for this is that you can KO Talonflame before Brave Bird (one SR switchin, 64% min), Thundurus-I before Thunder Wave (33% min), and Dragonite before Extreme Speed. I would still use Quick Attack because the power IMO is to much to give up vs HO. But these moves show that Pinsir is a much more diverse threat than it appears to be and can get by its normal checks and counters with some niche moves.

edit: Tomahawk9 Jolly Air Balloon Excadrill with Rock Slide now beats you. A lot of the base 100 megas + pinsir run speed boosting natures just to beat it. Rock Slide Charizard Y / Pinsir, Iron Head Gardevoir, EQ for Charizard X / Medicham. Wallbreakers I can see it, which is what you make pinsir with adamant i guess, but sweepers charizard x/ pinsir are better with jolly imo

 

[Tomahawk]

There's also the option of going Adamant for that bit of extra power: it obviously isn't as good as Jolly in most situations, since you lose out on outspeeding things such as Landorus, Garchomp, Timid Manaphy, and speed-tieing other Pinsir, but from my experience a lot of base 100's aren't running Speed-boosting nature (Charizard Y, Charizard X). With it and possibly Double-Edge or Trash, it has enormous power even without setting up. Just take a look at these calcs:

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 256-302 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 199-234 (51.9 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 204-241 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 160-189 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 213-252 (71 - 84%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 165-195 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 319-376 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 247-292 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 172-204 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Though keep in mind that it will probably not sweep as often as Jolly, but it has its advantages when paired with sweepers such as the aforementioned Talonflame, as it dents the common switchins much more.

Edit: Doughboy that is certainly true, but aiming to sweep isn't the goal of Adamant Pinsir. It uses that bit of extra power to gain some KOes it otherwise might not have, opening holes in the opposing team that teammates are able to take advantage of.

 

[Jukain]

Yeah, I pretty much always run Crunch on DD Mega Tar. There are compelling reasons to run Stone Edge, but when you try to sweep with an 80% acc move it just blows.

I have to say, the evolution of Deoxys-S this generation has been pretty interesting. Finally given a chance to actually stay in OU, it's had quite the effect on the tier. It started the generation as a predominant suicide hazard setter, but fell out of favor for a bit in favor of Deo-D, which is better at stacking hazards in general. It was during this period that LO Deo-S became especially popular. Probably the best set at the moment is SR + 3 attacks, which combines its supporting and attacking capabilities into one set. The last slot (which was generally HP Fire) isn't really necessary given the loss of Genesect, although it is definitely still useful for Mega Mawile and Scizor. The best part is that setting up SR leaves the opponent still guessing as to what Deo-S's set is. This set is so threatening and fills multiple roles, making it a true team player.

Another quirk has been the rise of Knock Off. Knock Off allows Deo-S to slaughter defensive switch-ins to it. Defensive Pokemon like Chansey that could take it on well enough are utterly screwed by Knock Off, making them much easier to wear down and deal with throughout the battle. This makes it a lot harder to handle defensively in general.

Recently, SR + Spikes has been back on the rise, usually carrying 1-2 attacks (Ice Beam + Psycho Boost/Superpower). While inferior to Deo-D at stacking, it has the benefit of the ability to come in at any point in the match and get more hazards due to its insane Speed stat, as well as RK certain threats depending on the attack(s) it carries. Deo-D's presence has gone down a lot as a result of Deo-S's prominence.

Dual screens is also really underrated atm. It's impossible to stop from setting up screens, and provides immense support for all kinds of sweepers in letting them set up and wreak havoc. Without good defensive answers the Pokemon, it's basically a losing battle because revenge killing is a futile endeavor with the screens up. In addition to its screening capabilities, it can even provide SR support.

I now want to address Deo-S and rain, as it's pretty much the best offensive lead for such teams. After Tesung used this set in SPL, it has been floating around on the ladder:

Deoxys-S @ Damp Rock
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef (I'm aware that people will run other odd EVs)
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Magic Coat

Deo-S is already fast enough to outrun positive-natured base 130s with 0 Speed investment, so there isn't really any reason to run more Speed on a non-attacking set. The basic premise of this set is to get up SR and RD to provide and immediate offensive advantage for its teammates. Physically defensive investment makes it bulky enough on that side (for example, it takes under half from Chomp's EQ) to set up both SR and RD fairly consistently.

Overall, Deo-S is seen as a key player for offensive teams. Whether being a significant threat with a LO or hazard stacker or dual screener or rain setter, it's extremely effective, providing an immediate advantage that no other Pokemon can.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Deoxys-S is without a doubt one of the best Pokemon out there. I'm just gonna pipe up to say that I don't really like the Dual Screens set considering how common Defog is (yes it removes screens). SR + 3 attacks sounds pretty interesting, but while Stealth Rock is guaranteed, I don't like the fact that without a Sash you likely won't get it up again, considering that means of removing hazards are everywhere... at least its defensive brother can set it up more than once if needed. It feels a bit similar to running Stealth Rock on LO Mamoswine last gen in that sense. LO 4 attacks on the other hand has been spectacular for me! Psycho Boost, Superpower, Knock Off and Ice Beam is my preferred combination. I used to run HP Fire over Knock Off, but with the baning of Genesect this has become less important. Sure it's nice for Scizor and Mawile, but with Scizor you're probably still eating a Bullet Punch beforehand, and Mawile often invests in bulk and only has 2x weakness. Not to mention that it can also Sucker Punch you. As Jukain said, Knock Off is beautiful for breaking down defensive behemoths like Chansey ithat it otherwise wouldn't be able to, and the fact that it goes mixed means that one can use a stat dropping move and then continue attacking from the other side of the spectrum (sorry C&C). It also gets a considerably stronger hit on Aegislash if you avoid King's Shield (esp if Aegislash is specially defensive). The fact that it's a cleaner AND a revenge killer brings tons of utility to a team (stopping offensive teams from being swept by +1 MegaZard X and Mega Tyranitar is HUGE:

236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 270-320 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 270-320 (90.9 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 312-369 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Add to the fact that you can customize Deoxys-S with hazards, ike Jukain said, to niche stuff like Rock Slide for +1 Volcarona, and it's definetly a really amazing Pokemon to use at the moment!

 

[BurningMan]

Yeah offensive Deo-S is really one of the best Pokemon right now and an amazing revengekiller and late game cleaner especially since the scarfers that could outspeed Deo-S like Terrakion, Keldeo and Latios got really rare.

Deo-S biggest downfall imo is its shitty mono psychic typing because it can be really hard to bring in without resists and it can easiely fall prey to Bisharp or Aegislash using Pursuit which are getting more and more common. This is also why i am not such a big fan of SR+3 attacks since you often have to rely purely on offensive pressure to set-up sr without getting KOd and i think Cherubs analogy to Mamoswine is really fitting. This is why i usually prefer to put SR on something like Garchomp, Lando-I (really underrated as a SR setter) or Heatran since they have the resistance and bulk to set it up multiple times even without necessarily forceing something out which is really important since Defog and Rapid Spin are almost as common as SR itself nowadays.
Dual Screens is good, but i have personally never been a big fan of the strategy its really one dimensional and while it is not as much auto pilot as Baton Pass it is still pretty much a hit or miss strategy where the outcome of the match often depends on the match-up or some early game predictions and the Defog buff made the strategy even less intresting for me.

 

[Tesung]

One thing I noticed is that I want a fast/ground immune/both electric type on every team basically. The ability to check mega pinsir and talonflame is huge obviously. However I noticed the main reason is because they can take thundurus out of the match. Thundurus is one of those "no reason not to use it" mons right now, and finding good switch-ins is a chore. This makes raikou and manetric really good in this meta, as they are the only electric who can really do that, as rotom and thundy itself are both 2hkoed by thundurus. This isn't to say that a raikou or manetric are necessary on every offense, just that they are the best at killing two birds with one stone. Also, I would say that every single viable fairy mon is both underrated and good, the typing is so incredible that it makes almost every team better.

 

[alexwolf]

I am surprised i don't see more Dual Screens Espeon around. Reflect + Light Screen + Yawn + Baton Pass with max HP, max Speed, and Light Clay is the moveset, and it has a few useful perks over Deoxys-S. First of all, it can obviously check Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D at any given time during the game, which is an excellent trait, though it has to be careful of Knock Off from Deoxys-S. Second, it is the only viable dual screener in OU that doesn't worry at all about Defog, as Magic Bounce blocks it, and Espeon can force every Defog user out with Yawn, while scouting the switch with Baton Pass. This means, that unlike Deoxys-S, Espeon doesn't have to play the ''to Taunt or not to Taunt game'' every time a Defog user comes in, risking getting OHKO/2HKOed if the opponent attacks instead of using Defog as Deoxys-S goes for Taunt.

So, with those advantages, DS Espeon acts as a good partner for SR weak set up sweepers which can start putting pressure to the opponent as soon as Espeon sets up the screens, such as Mega Charizard X, Swords Dance Double-Edge Mega Pinsir, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Taunt Mega Gyarados, and Swords Dance Natural Gift Talonflame. Also, thanks to the offensive pressure that those Pokemon apply to the opponent, he will rarely find the time to get rid of the screens when the sweepers are in, ensuring that your sweepers will take advantage of the screens for their full duration usually.

SR + SD Focus Sash Garchomp and Focus Sash Stealth Rock Terrakion (with either 3 attacks or Taunt, you don't want to give a free Sub to Aegislash) are the best SR users to pair with DS Espeon, as they can apply a lot of pressure on the opponent while simultaneously being very difficult Pokemon to Defog against, especially SR + Taunt Terrakion.

Of course i am not saying that dual screens Espeon is a great set or anything like that, but it works fine on HO teams, and you would expect that with Deo-S and Deo-D everywhere, it would be used more.

 

[Tesung]

I am surprised i don't see more Dual Screens Espeon around. Reflect + Light Screen + Yawn + Baton Pass with max HP, max Speed, and Light Clay is the moveset, and it has a few useful perks over Deoxys-S. First of all, it can obviously check Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D at any given time during the game, which is an excellent trait, though it has to be careful of Knock Off from Deoxys-S. Second, it is the only viable dual screener in OU that doesn't worry at all about Defog, as Magic Bounce blocks it, and Espeon can force every Defog user out with Yawn, while scouting the switch with Baton Pass. This means, that unlike Deoxys-S, Espeon doesn't have to play the ''to Taunt or not to Taunt game'' every time a Defog user comes in, risking getting OHKO/2HKOed if the opponent attacks instead of using Defog as Deoxys-S goes for Taunt.

So, with those advantages, DS Espeon acts as a good partner for SR weak set up sweepers which can start putting pressure to the opponent as soon as Espeon sets up the screens, such as Mega Charizard X, Swords Dance Double-Edge Mega Pinsir, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Taunt Mega Gyarados, and Swords Dance Natural Gift Talonflame. Also, thanks to the offensive pressure that those Pokemon apply to the opponent, he will rarely find the time to get rid of the screens when the sweepers are in, ensuring that your sweepers will take advantage of the screens for their full duration usually.

SR + SD Focus Sash Garchomp and Focus Sash Stealth Rock Terrakion (with either 3 attacks or Taunt, you don't want to give a free Sub to Aegislash) are the best SR users to pair with DS Espeon, as they can apply a lot of pressure on the opponent while simultaneously being very difficult Pokemon to Defog against, especially SR + Taunt Terrakion.

Of course i am not saying that dual screens Espeon is a great set or anything like that, but it works fine on HO teams, and you would expect that with Deo-S and Deo-D everywhere, it would be used more.

While being able to fuck deo lead teams is great, magic bounce doesn't stop defog, it just makes it so the defogger loses evasion. Espeon would be kind if anti meta but it is also to weak to commen threats, and also has no real good moveset




Edit: I am dumb :)

 

[alexwolf]

While being able to fuck deo lead teams is great, magic bounce doesn't stop defog, it just makes it so the defogger loses evasion. Espeon would be kind if anti meta but it is also to weak to commen threats, and also has no real good moveset

Magic Bounce does block Defog's screen removing effect actually, which is a single target effect, which is what i was referring to. As for a good moveset, dual screens + Yawn + Baton Pass does the job just fine: set up screens with good Speed, prevents set up with Yawn, and gets the match-up advantage with Yawn + Baton Pass.

 

[Nog]

I started playing Pokemon one with one month left in 5th gen so I'm not completely sure on what the meta game was or used to be outside of what people have told me and what I've seen. That being said before the coming of gen 6 and some Ubers being dropped down to OU, I had never used a Thundurus, a Manaphy, or even an Excadrill. The latter is the one that is probably my favorite simply because it fills the great niche of an offensive spinner for a wide variety of team archetypes. It is true that Excadrill is not what he once was and is no longer capable of sweeping entire teams after one SD in the sand, but in the gen 6 OU meta game a spinner that has pretty solid coverage and can beat one of the best soon blockers in the game (Aegislash) is of value to balanced teams and bulky offense.

Deoxys based Hyper Offense teams are becoming more and more popular and rightly so due to the immense pressure your opponent feels all throughout the game. You are forced to play games like should I Defog here or wait until Bisharp is gone and such. Using Excadrill remedies this problem because you don't fear a Bisharp or a Deoxys in the slightest, unboosted of course. They waste their live setting up hazards for you to spin away later free of charge. He checks a decent amount of the meta game and forces a ton of switches putting counter pressure onto HO teams.

Lastly Excadrill's fantastic abilities, Mold Breaker, Sand Rush, Sand Force, all serve different purposes and can work well for a large amount of teams. Mold Breaker allows you to beat switch ins like Lati@s, Rotom-Wash, and Quagsire and fits into teams anywhere from Hyper Offense to Bulky Offense to balanced. Sand Rush allows you a ridiculous speed boost, +2 speed in sand, and enables Excadrill to blaze past previous threats to it such as Greninja or Keldeo and is best played on a balanced sand based team. His third, final, and least used ability is Sand Force. This one is used less because simply put the other two are just better, plain and simple. Sand Force boosts the damage of Rock / Ground / Steel type moves in the sand which sky rockets Excadrill's already great attack, but unfortunately it lacks the base speed to make the best use of this. This ability is best used on a Bulky Offense sand based team due to the slower nature of this specific Excadrill.

 

[rachet67]

I don't know if this is just me, but once I entered the 1850~ region I've noticed that I've seen very few balanced or bulky offense teams, and that I've seen tons of Stall, Semi-Stall, and HO (and dEnIsSsS). I was using a bulky offense team myself and was hanging out around the 1750 to 1800 mark, but once I made a new HO team, I've jumped pretty fast to the 1850-80s. It seems somewhat ironic, seeing that at the beginning of XY people were touting it as the comeback for bulky offense. Does anyone have similar experiences in about this range, and do the team build-ups change again once you get into the 1950+ area?