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Overused Leads

Discussion in 'Pokémetrics' started by X-Act, Jun 9, 2009.

  1. Rurushu

    Rurushu Sleepless Strategist
    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Jan 30, 2009
    Huh, Mamoswine isn't weak to rock :/
  2. d2m


    Apr 18, 2009
    Neutrality, 12%. That comes into play if you get Surfed or Fire Blasted. It also means it can't revenge kill as effectively after it gets beaten on by a lead. That's my point.
  3. Rurushu

    Rurushu Sleepless Strategist
    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Jan 30, 2009
    But take a look at your calculations. You obviously did the Aerodactyl X Mamoswine/Tyranitar X Mamoswine with Rock being super effective.
  4. Raikaria


    May 20, 2009
    Looking at the 'Big 12' leads, I have found that one pokemon is capable of countering ALL of them.

    Rotom-C @ Choice Specs
    252 Sp.Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
    Leaf Storm
    Shadow Ball

    I calculated damage on all of the standard lead sets for the 'big 12' barring Ninjask, who is OHKO'ed by most things, and has Sash anyway, and the results were pleasing. Please note that these are in useage order.

    Metagross: Thunderbolt = 66.76% - 78.57% (Outsped)
    Azelf: Thunderbolt = 192.72% - 226.44% (Sashed, but can't 2HKO)
    Swampert: Leaf Storm = 237.16% - 279.05% (Outsped)
    Jirachi: Thunderbolt = 58.53% - 68.77%
    Aerodactyl: Thunderbolt = 186.75% - 219.54% (Sashed, but can't 2HKO)
    Infernape: Thunderbolt = 100.34% - 118.09%
    Hippowodon: Leaf Storm = 110.24% - 129.76% (Outsped)
    Ninjask: Thunderbolt = 2HKO due to Sash
    Bronzong: Thunderbolt = 53.85% - 63.31% (Outsped)
    Tyranitar: Leaf Storm = 91.27% - 107.23% (Outsped)
    Heatran: Thunderbolt = 65.43% - 77.16% (Outsped without + Speed)
    Abomasnow: Shadow Ball = 66.98% - 78.82% (Outsped)

    As you can see, only Metagross, Jirachi, Heatran, Abomasnow and Bronzong are not OHKO'ed (Tyranitar CAN live), and of these, only Heatran and Abomasnow can do anything significant back, unless Jirachi flinchaxes it's way past. Rotom is immune to Explosion, that so many Suicide leads carry, and also Fighting types, and EQ. Rotom is bulky enough to take a hit or two with it's inferior speed, barring possibly Tyranitar, and KO the lead back, especially as most will either set up rocks, or switch. In the event of a switch, anything that is not a Ground type will take a heavy blow from Thunderbolt, those who are not Normals will be hurt by Shadow Ball, and Leaf Storm brings the pain on almost anything else not with a X4 resist.

    Bronzong, although a possible 3HKO due to lefties, can hardly scratch Rotom, due to it's low speed, and resistance to Gyro Ball, and Immunity to Explosion and Earthquake. Same with Metagross's Meteor Mashes.

    Basically, Rotom can stop about half of the common leads from setting up Rocks, and score a OHKO on half of them as well.

    You COULD add HP Fire over Trick, for a OHKO on Abomasnow, and to deal increased damage to the Steels, but Trick aids in later game, where Rotom has been recalled, and sent out against a wall.

    I see Rotom-C becoming a new Anti-Lead...
  5. SlottedPig

    SlottedPig sem feio
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    May 16, 2009
    I'd like to see a list of them in USAGE order, if that doesn't cause too much trouble :)
  6. Xaqwais


    Dec 25, 2008
  7. Amphetamines


    Dec 14, 2008

    What really is a let down on this lead, is that is only OHKO's Swampert, and that all other leads can set up SR, then switch to something that resists the attack, forcing you to switch. This is more of a gimmick lead than an Anti-Lead, if you ask me.
  8. Andralexis


    Apr 30, 2009
    Apparently a Charizard anti-lead is quite plausible, scaring even Swampert (HP Grass) and Aerodactyl (which usually SR first turn expecting you to switch, leading then to a 2HKO if you carry Focus Sash with it).
  9. Arcaseven


    May 28, 2008
    Something like this, maybe?

    Charizard @ Life Orb
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
    Mild / Rash
    - Flamethrower
    - Earthquake
    - HP Grass
    - Crunch

    Base 100 speed outspeeds everything on that list spare Aerodactyl, Azelf, Infernape, and Ninjask.
  10. TheMantyke

    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 9, 2007
    Sorry, but Charizard won't prevent Aerodactyl from getting a layer of Stealth Rocks up. The point of Aerodactyl in the first place is to get up Stealth Rocks at the cost of Aerodactyl's life.

    Also, what can Charizard do that infernape can't do better? Infernape can hit harder on both ends of the spectrum, gets a more useful movepool, and can use more Anti-Lead attacks (Fake-Out, Encore). On top of that, Infernape can actually set-up stealth rocks and doesn't loose 50% of his HP when his opponents do.

    I'm really suprised that Ninjask has managed to stay with the top leads for 5 months. I have no idea how they're getting past Taunting Azelfs and Aerodactyls.
  11. ungulateman


    Apr 11, 2009
    Franklin, if you actually looked at the calcs, you'd see that Rotom-C gets multiple OHKOs on the big 12 leads. So I don't know what you're smoking....
  12. Raikaria


    May 20, 2009
    Azelf = Sashed
    Aero = Sashed
    Ninjask = Sashed
    LeadApe = Sashed

    Swampert = OHKO'ed
    T-Tar = Possible OHKO
    Hippo= OHKO

    And, a big thing about this Rotom lead is that it is immune to Explosion. That kills leads such as Metagross, Azelf, and Zong. It is also immune to Fake Out, a common leadape starting move (To break sashes)

    Not many leads can handle the top 12, and even fewer can actually prevent the likes of Azelf from getting rocks up, and EVEN FEWER are immune to Explosion (Totaling 0, actually, there are no outspeeding Azelf FO leads that are Ghost types, although T-Tar with Sandstream forces either rocks, explosion, or switch.)
  13. Coram_Boy


    Apr 5, 2009
    AFAIK, this will counter the 'top 12' leads, although with ninjask it really comes down to luck as it can easily sub after a quick attack, barely survive, and baton pass (I saw this shamin set somewhere a while ago, and just remembered about it) although I think that does depend on which of the berries one takes. I'm also not 100% on the ev's/nature, though, so take it with a pinch of salt:

    Occa Berry/Yache Berry
    252Hp 252 SpA 4 Att
    Seed Flare
    Earth Power
    HP Fire/HP Ice
    Quick Attack

    This should beat Metagross, Azelf, Swampert, Jirachi, Aerodactyl, Infernape, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Tyranitar, Abomasnow (if HP Fire), Gliscor (easier with HP Ice), Gyarados, and Starmie (if Yache Berry). It's worked well for the time that I've used it for (admittedly that's not the lengthiest of periods; I only remembered it yesterday) with a good success rate in beating the opponent's lead. the problem is that quite a few sashed leads can set up stealth rocks, and, although I don't remember if it OHKO's this Shaymin and haven't seen this happen so far, explode (in azelf's case).
  14. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 26, 2008
    I don't know why you're using Quiet. Why not use one that boosts special attack while lowering one of its defenses the least and give it max speed EVs? That way it can still come back in later on and attack with Seed Flare/other attacks.
  15. Coram_Boy


    Apr 5, 2009
    Because it can take hits better with better defences? It's not my set, and I haven't seen the explanation; It was the nature on the set I first saw, so I posted it here. Feel free to justify a better one.
  16. wildfire393


    Oct 3, 2008
    At the very minimum you want enough speed to outrun Heatran, otherwise your berry is for nothing as he can just Blast you into oblivion.

    Also I feel like Celebi does this kind of set better, especially when Grass Knot/Leaf Storm hits the things you'd Seed Flare plenty hard (Ttar/Hippo/Swampert), and he has access to TrickSpecs and SR.

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