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Pacific Hurricane

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Lavos Spawn, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,019
    Pacific Hurricane
    a World Cup of Pokemon RMT

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    Hey there, Smogon! It's been a while since I last posted an RMT, but with the World Cup of Pokemon VII finally coming to a close today, with team USA West winning it all , I decided another one was in order. This is the team I used in Rounds 2 and 3 of the WCoP, winning both my matches, and I figured of all the teams I ended up using in the tour, it was the one most deserving of a full RMT. (Remember that the World Cup was a Black and White 1 tournament; please rate it as such!)

    The title may be slightly misleading; this team isn't based around the Hurricane user, Tornadus, but rather around a creative set good friend undisputed and I were toying around with, Work Up Vaporeon. In the rain, it's a boss capable of decimating entire teams, able to Rest off all damage with Hydration curing the Sleep status that normally makes Rest such a double-edged sword. I never got a chance to use it much in my WCoP battles, but in testing it was by far the MVP of the team. So, without further ado, let's get to it!

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    Philip7086 (Politoed) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Encore

    Politoed makes it rain. Otherwise, it's a pretty useless Pokemon. As far as I'm concerned, it's not bulky enough for a defensive set and not powerful enough for a Specs set, so the only remaining option is a Choice Scarfer. Surprisingly, it actually does its job rather nicely - with a Timid Nature, it can even outspeed +1 neutral Dragonite and OHKO with Ice Beam. EVs are standard: maximize the power and speed. My moveset is somewhat odd in that it doesn't utilize a third attacking type, it's just two water moves, an ice move, and a status move. Surf is my STAB 100% accuracy attack, just for generic attacking stuff. Hydro Pump, though I despise its 80% accuracy, is sometimes necessary for ensuring a KO on stuff like 55% Rotom-W. Ice Beam for Grass-and-Dragon-types, mostly. Encore is somewhat different, but I've found it invaluable, because if I predict correctly on something using Substitute or a boosting move, I can Encore the Pokemon into the move and then get a free switch into the respective counter.

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    yee (Forretress) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SDef [IVs: 0 Spd]
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch
    - Gyro Ball

    This spot was originally occupied by Donphan, but having another Dragon resist is really nice, so I opted for Forretress instead. Forry does its job and does it well: gets Stealth Rocks up (because I don't want to waste a slot on Jirachi), Rapid Spins, and provides some momentum for my team with Volt Switch along with a decent check to Terrakion, who harasses me to no end if I don't weaken it quickly. EVs are pretty standard, for generic walling purposes. Relaxed Nature to make my Speed lower, which along with 0 Spd IVs allows Forretress to 2HKO big threats like Landorus with Gyro Ball, and grab an OHKO on Jolly Mamoswine (sometimes on Adamant). There's nothing more I could really ask from this thing, besides maybe Game Freak giving it a decent recovery move!

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    Oristeros (Breloom) (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 236 HP / 188 SDef / 84 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Spore
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Focus Punch

    Breloom is such a boss. With 0 Atk investment, Focus Punch is still an easy 2HKO on stuff that resists it, like Starmie (OHKO with a crit :toast:). Breloom is basically the only thing that keeps Rotom-W from running all over my face, so it's imperative that I keep it really healthy, preferably above 50% for the duration of the match. The EVs, instead of trying to maximize offensive potential like some other Brelooms, focus more on the defensive side, ensuring I'm not going to get 2HKO'd by Rotom-W's Hydro Pump in the Rain. Spore is an absolute godsend; Stealth Rock may be the best move in the game, but Spore is a close second. 100% accurate Sleep is pretty much a free KO with the BW mechanics. Substitute may seem counterintuitive when I just said I want to keep Breloom alive as long as possible, but with Poison Heal recovery, in 2 turns I'm back to my health before the Sub. Leech Seed also contributes to my recovery; while most Brelooms would run Seed Bomb in this slot, I think Leech Seed is much handier and a better choice overall. Focus Punch, of course, is the Base Power 150 attack that hits like a truck. Despite no Attack investment, with STAB I'm hitting Base 225 and that's nothing to sneeze at. Breloom has both a defensive presence and an offensive one, and that's why I consider it the glue to the team.

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    mostwanted (Tornadus) (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Hurricane
    - Focus Blast
    - Grass Knot

    The boss is here. Specs Tornadus is one of the biggest threats the BW1 OU metagame has to offer, and with this team it gets to live up to its potential. EVs are standard, a Naive Nature because I don't feel like taking away from the power of U-Turn and Tornadus isn't really built to take a hit anyways. U-Turn is for momentum, scouting out threats and switching to the appropriate counter. Coupled with 353 Speed, outspeeding most of the OU metagame, a Choice Specs Hurricane can wreck pretty much anything it comes up against. Practically the only things that can stand to take a hit are specially defensive Pokemon that resist Hurricane; the big three are Tyranitar, Heatran, and Jirachi. However, once these are out of the way, there's almost nothing to stop the Hurricane rampage. Focus Blast and Grass Knot are coverage moves; Focus Blast can OHKO Tyranitar if it doesn't have a Chople Berry, and deal a good chunk of damage to SDef Heatran. Grass Knot is somewhat filler, but helps when I don't want to risk a Focus Miss on Tyranitar. It's also a convenient OHKO on standard Hippowdon, which is often overlooked. Tornadus is just a big threat that unprepared teams will be ripped apart by.

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    undisputed (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Work Up
    - Rest
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam

    Props to the legendary undisputed for helping me with this one. Hydration is such a broken ability, and Vaporeon is a Pokemon built to abuse it. EVs maximize defenses, so it can take some hits while it boosts up with Work Up (no Calm Mind is bs). The Speed investment also lets it outrun Base 70 'mons with little to no EVs, including Politoed (who can Perish Song to stop a sweep) and Skarmory (good to be able to get in Scalds before Roosts). The set isn't too difficult to understand, with Work Up being the boosting move, Rest letting me get back to full HP with no consequences, and Scald as my generic STAB over Surf so I can burn stuff like Ferrothorn that would otherwise pose a problem to the functionality of Vaporeon. I toyed with Acid Armor in the last slot, but figured that if my opponent brought a Jellicent or Gastrodon I'd be screwed, so I opted for Ice Beam as a secondary attack, which also gives me some good coverage so Dragons can't set up all over me. I swear if Vaporeon got Calm Mind it would be banned. Unfortunately, I have to settle for Work Up, but trust me, this thing is still a dangerous threat that almost nobody actually prepares for. I've caught many a team by surprise with this monster - don't let it happen to you.

    [​IMG]
    Bloo (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Thunder
    - Iron Head

    And finally, the big boss Jirachi. I named it Bloo cuz it's the clutchest Pokemon on the team, just like our favorite administrator (sorry Phil). This set goes SDef to the max while abusing Rain some more, just like the rest of my team. It's annoying to have to lower Jirachi's speed with a Sassy Nature, but otherwise I'd have to sacrifice necessary power on either Thunder or Iron Head, which isn't worth it to me. Protect may seem like an iffy move, considering if I ran Stealth Rock I could have Spikes on Forretress, but otherwise Specs Latios is going to be able to 3HKO me with Surf and I can't WishProtect stall back up to full health. Same thing with Gengar; it'll 3HKO with Shadow Ball after hazards and I don't want to rely on a 60% chance of Thunder getting a para to determine whether I win or lose. Speaking of Thunder, it used to be really unexpected on a SDef Rachi, and I'm kind of disappointed that people are starting to catch onto it. I can't count how many Starmies have been popped by this thing. It's awesome, and definitely a better choice than Body Slam. Iron Head, of course, is for flinching stuff to death, which Jirachi is very good at. With Serene Grace giving me good odds to get a flinch on any given turn, plus a 25% chance of the opponent being fully paralyzed, there's rarely a time when Jirachi can't hax its opponent to death.


    Well, that's pretty much it. Thanks for reading. Rate, hate, steal, whatever! Shout out to team USA West, consisting of Philip7086, Bloo, yee, mostwanted, Oristeros, myzozoa, TheFourthChaser, remlabmez, Scofield, Indra, MOET, symphonyx64, and most of all, undisputed, who gave me the inspiration to use Work Up Vaporeon in the first place. We got that blue trophy :toast:

    Importable (open)
    Philip7086 (Politoed) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Encore

    yee (Forretress) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch
    - Gyro Ball

    Oristeros (Breloom) (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 236 HP / 188 SDef / 84 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Spore
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Focus Punch

    mostwanted (Tornadus) (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Hurricane
    - Focus Blast
    - Rain Dance

    undisputed (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Work Up
    - Rest
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam

    Bloo (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Thunder
    - Iron Head
  2. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion

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    Haven't really thought this through, but I reckon you could try baton pass over ice beam on Vaporeon. The idea is basically this: if you think specs Tornadus hurricane spam is hard to switch in to, imagine it at +2. Tornad can even utilize the attack boost to hit Ttar switch-ins harder with uturn. Vappy can also pass to Scarftoed and from there you can sweep everything with a fast, boosted surf. Breloom and Jirachi aren't bad recipients either.

    Just an idea, congrats again on the trophy. We're comin to get ya next year.
  3. gr8astard

    gr8astard The Based Lord? My balls!!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL + WCoP Winnerwon the 9th Official Smogon Tournament
    Moderator

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    Great team Lavos, just looking at it I see how effective this team is for BW1 (Thundurus-T just ruins it for this team). Not only is the Vaporeon an absolute monster in rain, it provides an excellent switch-in to Ninetales other than Politoed as it can just rest and cure itself with hydration later on in the game. I have tried a tank Vaporeon set with rest + 3 attacks in the past, but I can see how your set can work better especially vs stall. That SpDef Breloom is also quite interesting, as it is also a solid switch-in to Tyranitar and Hippowdon, making it easier for this team to win weather wars in general.
    I have to admit I wondered what kind of Breloom it was when you used it to net that focus punch crit, and now I'm glad the question has been answered. However it was unfortunate that your Vaporeon got critted before it can do much. I need to give both sets a try despite them being less viable in BW2 with the presence of Tornadus and Thundurus-T.
    On to the rating itself, the main problem I see here is, as you have mentioned, Rotom-W. Although you have Breloom to neuter it, it is a nuisance to the rest of your team and Breloom can't do much back to Rotom-W once your opponent sleep-foddered something. Of course, Rotom-W can't do much to Breloom either, but it will still be annoying. I won't even mention the fact (I just did) that you have to be wary of Rotom-W will-o-wisping before the toxic orb is activated because I'm sure you would never let that happen. Also, I imagine Choice Specs Hydro Pump in the rain would still do a lot of damage to any Breloom. The easiest solution to stop Rotom-W from roaming around is to use Gastrodon over Vaporeon, but I myself won't be able to bring myself to remove such a beast Vaporeon set.
    I know this is a horrible rating but I'm just here to again extend a congratulations to US Best for winning the World Cup. And I guess this is a perfect example of an ideal tournament team--a seemingly standard team with 2 very unusual pokemon for the surprise factor :]
  4. undisputed

    undisputed
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Frontier Lackeyis a Past WCoP Winner

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    Yeah, so as I told you on IRC, I was a huge fan of this team, and I really think it was the best team I saw in WCoP. Not even having to use Vaporeon to end games is a real testament to how good this team was.

    I believe we briefly discussed a few changes shortly after the team was conceived, but a defensive Politoed might be worth considering. I'm always weather paranoid and Defensive Toed really keeps the momentum going vs Tyranitar and Sand Storm teams. Scarf Politoed for sure has more utility otherwise, however.

    Have you considered a more specially defensive spread on Forretress? I find it more useful for getting up early rocks and handling boosted water attacks. Forretress is kind of a utility for your team anyway, so you can throw it into random attacks on both spectra and ease predictions. You could possibly try HP Ice over Volt Switch or Gyro Ball if you wanted. HP Ice still beats Landorus, and it also aids vs. Gliscor which can be annoying in tandem with Sand or if you have trouble keeping Stealth Rock off the field. Terrakion is a weird issue for you mainly because you're often forced to sac something, but then Tornadus or Politoed can get some work in the next move too.

    At first I was going to suggest a more defensive Breloom spread, but on second thought I think I like the Sp Def more. On one of my Gen 4 teams, physically defensive Breloom tanks tons of hits easily and is always the MVP. On this team, Rotom-W is annoying, and switching into random Volt Switches is pretty invaluable however.

    On the topic of Baton Pass > Ice Beam, I have to say Ice Beam plays a pretty vital role if you want to end games with Vaporeon. It makes sure you're not walled by Jellicent, and it also gives you an excellent counter/check to Dragons trying to set up.

    Once again, this is really an awesome team. Glad you liked the Vaporeon set idea and used it to success! :)
  5. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
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    3,019
    Thanks for the rates everybody!

    @ BKC: This team, with a few changes, could be turned into a Baton Pass shenanigans sort of thing, I guess. I would use Scarf Tornadus if the idea was passing Work Ups, though. Good idea, just not exactly my style. And I'm looking forward to facing East again next year :)

    @ gr8astard: Yeah, Gastrodon would be really great for Rotom-W and powerful Water-type attacks in general, but Vaporeon is such a great rain stall counter and a boss in general that I can't bring myself to drop it. Thanks for the Luvdisc!

    @ Jr Breshears: Thank you! It's always nice to hear kind words about my team.

    @ undisputed: HP Ice isn't a bad idea, actually. The only thing I dislike about it is that it prevents Forretress from being able to do anything to Terrakion besides Volt Switch out, and it leaves me pretty weak to LO Mamoswine too. I'll test HP Ice, but I think I'm going to stick with Gyro Ball for now. Thank you so much for the inspiration to use Work Up Vaporeon, what a boss. Blue trophy :toast:
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    8,564
    First of all CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! XD. I'm from the East Side, but it's refreshing to see US winning WCup over Asia / Oceanic.

    Down to business. This team seems like it will be demolished by Electric-types / Pokemon with Electric moves. SubCM Jirachi can very well spam Thunder and none of your mons can do anything about it except for Vaporeon, which is a shaky check at best. Starmie essentially 2HKOs everything. SubChargeBeam Magnezone can set up a Sub on Jirachi, net some SpA boosts, and go to town. Zapdos with HP Flying kills Breloom. I'm pretty sure Specs Jolteon can get away spamming Thunder, too.

    You definitely need to remove Forretress and one of Breloom / Tornadus to address this problem.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Route A - removing Forretress + Breloom; keeping Tornadus.

    ~ Replace Forretress + Breloom for Ferrothorn and a more useful Rapid Spinner that's not simply death fodder. Starmie can easily check Terrakion for you while Tentacruel can check Scarf Terrakion and Volt-Turners. Not to mention both of them can actually take on spinblockers unlike shit Forretress.

    ~ Ferrothorn's moves - Power Whip / Bulldoze / Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave | Spikes. Bulldoze is necessary if you don't want the team be swept by Magnezone. It's also nice to break Substitute of Jirachi or slowing down Sweepers like Lucario, Terrakion, Haxorus, Virizion, etc. Thunder Wave is a great utility move, but you can go for Spikes as well.

    ~ Starmie's moves - Hydro Pump / Thunder / Ice Beam / Rapid Spin @ Expert Belt . Even specially-defensive Jellicent would be 2HKOed after SR thanks to EB-boosted Thunder.

    ~ Tentacruel's moves - Scald / Toxic / Protect / Rapid Spin. Toxic lets it beat Jellicent, while Scald + Protect beats SubDisable Gengar as well as help countering choiced Volt-Turn combination.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Route B - removing Forretress & Tornadus; keeping Breloom

    ~ Replace Tornadus with Jolteon. Yes, Tornadus is one of the major Rain threats after Thundurus-T left, but with Vaporeon compounding the team's weakness to electric-types, it's not necessarily the best fit. Jolteon hits softer, but makes up for it with its Speed, which is great for revenging Alakazam, Starmie, +1 Gyarados, +1 DDNite, and Tornadus-T. It's also faster than ScarfTar, which is nice.

    ~ Jolteon's moves - Thunder(bolt) / HP Ice / Signal Beam / Baton Pass | Volt Switch @ LO | EB. Thunderbolt is more consistent when facing Sun teams. Baton Pass is great for escaping from Tyranitar's Pursuit and Dugtrio's Arena Trap.
    ~ Sub Pass is also a valid strategy here, providing free Subs to your Breloom, Vaporeon, etc

    ~ Replace Forretress with Gastrodon or Ferrothorn. With Tornadus replaced, Rapid Spin support is not *THAT* necessary. You can run a specially offensive Gastrodon @ CSpecs or LO to check Jirachi, Starmie, and Electric-types. Gastrodon is susceptible to a well-timed HP Grass, but you have Breloom to check those. Wish Jirachi provides some nice Wish passing to keep Gastrodon healthy.

    ~ Going with Gastrodon means losing out on SR; this means Jirachi needs to stick Stealth Rock (or you can go without SR xP). For this reason, Ferrothorn is again not a bad choice over Forretress. You want Bulldoze here instead of Spikes / T-Wave, unless you are attaching Shed Shell.

    Thanks for sharing this team, Lavos, and congrats for the WCup victory!
  7. Jolteon Bandit

    Jolteon Bandit

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    116
    Hey Lavos. Great looking team. I don't know if you remember, but you rated my RMT where I also used an offensive Vappy set. I loved that thing, and it looks like you do too.

    Well, I'm not sure how much you're going to take the rates into account since this is a BW1 team, but half of your team is weak to electricity. And, yeah, you could probably say that about most rain teams anyway. Breloom does resist it and can set up on the electric types. After that though, your best bet is to use Jirachi. So I would agree that a ground type would greatly benefit the team.

    If I had to choose, I would suggest Dugtrio. This guy's ability to trap and easily KO Tyranitar and Ninetales along with any grounded Electric types is a nice asset for any team. Factor in that he's a decent revenge killer in his own right, and you have a great anti-weather pokemon. Team preview also let's me figure out when I want to bring him in and who I want to trap and KO. I usually have a Dugtrio whenever I make a rain team simply because he can take out TTar and Ninetales so easily. Hippowdon doesn't stand a chance against special attacks and Obamasnow is easily beaten by the majority of your team. You also said that the big three pokemon that resist Tornadus' Hurricane were TTar, Heatran and Jirachi. Well Duggy here has a good shot at taking down all three fairly easily.

    The bigger question is, who should he replace? Toed is necessary for rain, Forry is necessary for Hazards/Spinning, Breloom is a bada$$ and Rotom-W counter, Tornadus is a bad bada$$, Vaporeon is quite nearly my favorite Rain pokemon now and Jirachi is a useful dragon resist and overall hair-tearing nuisance for the opponent. To be honest, while I see that it could fit well on the team, I just can't tell who to replace. Your team complements itself rather nicely, so to take a piece out would probably ruin the chemistry in some places.

    In conclusion, while I could see a ground type like Dugtrio or Gastrodon fitting on the team, the problem isn't about how well they would fit. It's about what part of your team you see as being less important than Electric immunity. This is a really good rain team Lavos, I'm always a fan of your work. Great job at WCoP and Luvdisc.
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    @ Pocket: Yeah, this team is really weak to very powerful special attackers, which is why I always strive to keep Jirachi at as high of health as I possibly can. I've considered all of your suggestions, and they're all good ones, they just don't fit my playstyle very well. None of that is your problem - you're just making suggestions that make sense - but I really despise Jolteon's frailty, and I'm opposed to using Ferrothorn on principle lol. Thanks for the rate, though, you really seem to know what you're talking about.

    @ Jolteon Bandit: Hey, I remember you! Thanks for the rate bud. I was considering just making this a Dugtrio rain team for a while, but Dugtrio can only check so many things, and when I made this match I was expecting a rain stall team from my opponent so I wasn't very worried about trapping opposing weather inducers etc. However, I think it's a viable suggestion and I'll test it out, probably over Vaporeon, as much as I love it.

    Thanks for the rates, keep them coming!
  9. Tangelo

    Tangelo

    Joined:
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    This team is almost as hot as you are <33

    SubCM Rachi seems like a dick so maybe Song > Encore on Toed? Trio may work over Forry but if you feel spinning is too important that's fine. Gastro > Vap would probably help but Vap is Vap and don't give a shit.
  10. peng

    peng

    Joined:
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    Cool team, but I'm surprised nobody else has pointed out the huge Lucario weakness. It sets up all over Forretress and Ice Beam-locked Politoed and can pretty much sweep you clean once rocks are up. Its a difficult weakness to patch-up but I think a Gliscor somewhere would really help you out. To me, Forretress seems to be the most expendable team member, so I think you could fit in some fast Gliscor variant over it. You'd then probably have to stick Stealth Rock on Jirachi over Protect. This does make Gengar and Latios a bit more difficult to deal with, so maybe try Thunder Wave over Thunder? Idk. Gliscor is also always really nice to have anyway given how popular Terrakion is in BW1, and it makes a great general close combat sponge. You lose out on Rapid Spin but imo its worth it considering the constantly rising popularity of Lucario in BW1.

    I also strongly recommend Tailwind over Grass Knot on Tornadus. Both are filler options anyway but Tailwind gives you more options to deal with shit like DD Haxorus and is also just incredibly clutch. Whereas Grass Knot is useless in like 99% of battles.

    I think thats all I wanted to say, gl and congrats on your trophy.
  11. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
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    Hey Lavos this is an amazing team, I really love the use of Work Up Vaporeon.

    This team's synergy is pretty great as it is, so I will only be suggesting small changes. Lucario can be a problem, as PenguinX pointed out, it can get an SD up on Forretress and proceed to sweep your team after a bit of softening earlier on in the game. Magnezone is another huge threat, it can very easily decimate your entire team while it's behind a sub. Sub CM Jirachi is probably the biggest threat of them all and requires almost no preperation to sweep your team, it can set up on half your team and really mess you up, Politoed can encore jirachi into Sub but that's an extremely shaky option. To remedy this I suggest you run Earthquake over Stealth Rocks on Forretress. This move not only helps you deal with all the above threats alot easier, and helps solve your Electric type problem (only grounded ones, but every little bit counts.) This means you'll need to put Stealth Rocks over Protect on Jirachi making Gengar and Specs Latios annoying, but Vaporeon, Politoed and Tornadus can help handle Gengar and Latios locked into Surf is handled by Breloom, Tornadus, Politoed and Vaporeon.

    I also suggest you run Hidden Power [Ice] over Gyro Ball, you'll also want to change Forretress' Speed IVs to 2, so that you still have max power Hidden Power [Ice] and still be as slow as possible giving you a chance at Forretress vs Forretress wars (slowest Forretress always wins). Now that you have Earthquake, Terrakion is covered, Mamoswine can still be annoying, but you can play around him and a few EQs will take him out when he's a little weakened from all the LO Damage. Hidden Power [Ice] makes another big threat to your team: Acrobat Gliscor alot easier to deal with, forms a nice pseudo Bolt-Beam combo with Volt Switch and still deals with both Dragons and Landorus effeciently.

    If you take in both these suggestions a spread of 248 HP / 64 Atk / 156 Def / 40 SAtk on Forretress is recommended. The Attack EVs allow you to OHKO 0/4 Lucario at -1 as well as doing (85.52% - 102.07%) to standard Sub Charge beam Magnezone, KOing Magnezone after the damage it takes when it tries to sub up on you. You could alternatively run a spread of 248 HP / 124 Atk / 96 Def / 40 SAtk to OHKO Sub Charge Beam Magnezone and 0/0 Heatran after rocks, but it's not recommended because your team handles Heatran well enough and Magnezone will likely try to sub on you anyway. The SAtk EVs allow you to 2HKO Landorus, Salamence etc. with Hidden Power [Ice], as well as more overall damage output from both Hidden Power [Ice] and Volt Switch.

    Anyway, I hope my rate helped, and great job going 5-1 in your first WCOP. Have fun with your blue trophy while it lasts, Oceania's going to claim it back next year :]
  12. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    @ The Great Mighty Doom: First, thanks a lot for the rate! I really appreciate the suggestions, and yeah I considered Earthquake Forretress for a while, but considering the playstyles of my opponents for round 2 and 3 I didn't expect any Magnezone shenanigans. Lucario is definitely a big weakness that my team often fails to address, and I should probably have something to cover that weakness, but I'm horrible at this game so I'm going to continue to neglect it. And btw I'm not going HP Ice on Forretress because I feel like then I'd flat out lose to LO/CB Mamoswine (especially CB since I can't stall out LO damage and switching Tornadus into it requires more balls than I possess). And lol @ Oceania taking WCoP next year. West isn't going away anytime soon. :toast:
  13. Magma

    Magma

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2009
    Messages:
    70
    Hey Lavos. This team has all the makings of a great balanced team - it's easy to see how you were able to have so much success with it. Congrats. (Your Vaporeon is an absolute beast.) Now on to the rate.

    My first suggestion is just a minor nitpick. Personally, I would consider U-Turn > Protect on Jirachi. Yeah, the loss of Protect may decrease it's survivability, but on the flip side, it makes Wish passing a hell of a lot easier and gives Jirachi a way to escape from Magnezone. If you don't like U-Turn, Drain Punch > U-turn or Shed Shell > Leftovers are some other options. I've used the Mixed Paraflinch set before and I hate when it's a sitting duck vs Sub Charge Magnezones.

    My next suggestion is slightly bigger than the first and focuses on Breloom. Since you're relying on the Mushroom Pokemon to tank Thunders and already have it's Special Defense maxed out, why don't you go with Bulk Up Breloom > Sub Punch Breloom. The best thing about this switch is it allows Breloom to attack without being behind a Substitute (which is huge when it's going up against Sub CM Jirachi, Jolteon, and Starmie.) Bulk Up Breloom also becomes much more dangerous in the Rain since certain Fires (Infernape and Heatran) can't switch in to it after a Bulk Up and win 1-on-1.

    This is definitely one of the most well-built balanced teams I've seen, but there is one tiny chink in it's armor - certain Swords Dance sweepers such as Scizor, Lucario, and Toxicroak can be a bit of a problem. It looks like a roster move is going to have to be made to patch this up. I'm not going to touch Breloom or Vaporeon (since they make up the team's Steel + Water + Grass core AND break down opposing walls), so I'm going to replace your "cleaner", Tornadus.

    Since this is a BW1 team and Thundurus-T/Hurricane Moltres are off limits, I'm going to recommend Special Attacker Zapdos > Choice Specs Tornadus. An EV spread of 252 HP | 82 Def | 176 Spe with a Bold Nature will probably work best on your team. The speed EVs are just enough to outspeed Lucario/Toxicroak while the the added bulk makes sure Extreme Speed/Sucker Punch don't OHKO you after Stealth Rock. Life Orb boosted Thunders OHKO these threats in return without any investment in Special Attack. This Bulky Offensive Zapdos beats Swords Dance Scizor as well. Hopefully, the massive speed drop on your new "cleaner" doesn't open you up to any new threats.

    Thats about it. Again, hell of a team man. Luvdisc'd.
  14. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    @ Magma: Hey, thanks for the rate! As far as your suggestions go - first, I really hate U-Turn on Jirachi and I realize it's currently a sitting duck for SubCharge Magnezone but hardly anybody uses that anymore and I don't consider it a big threat. Second, the Breloom actually used to be a BU Loom before I had Work Up Vaporeon, but the only real use for BU Loom is as a weapon against stall, and since Vappy already takes on stall by itself I don't need another 'mon to do that. SubSeed Loom is a great weapon against offense and I see no reason to ditch it, I'm running the EV spread of a BU Loom so there's no difference in the damage it takes from attacks. Finally, Zapdos is actually a great idea and I'm glad you brought it up. Once it gets Lightningrod it's going on this team for sure (not sure if it has yet tbh). It seems to work pretty well against most of the big threats to the team, you're right about that - I'll test it out and see how it holds up. Thanks again for the rate, I really appreciate it.
  15. Shining_Latios

    Shining_Latios

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,425
    Hey Lavos Spawn. First off, congrats on the trophy! The only suggestion I have for you is trying out Tailwind or Rain Dance over Grass Knot on your Tornadus. Tailwind helps you gain that speed to edge speed boosted Pokemon. On the other hand, Rain Dance can be used to guarantee Rain Dance is up if Politoed is dead due to Prankster which can potentially help you in some situations. Hope I helped.
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    You're like the third person to suggest this, but Grass Knot in my mind is still a better option. As user yondie knows, relying on Hurricane in sand to hit Hippowdon doesn't always end well. Thanks for the congratulations though! :]
  17. Lord Moet II

    Lord Moet II
    is a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
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    Hey lavos great team you have here and after facing it once or twice and getting wrecked by that vap, lol, i have no real suggentions for changing it. Keep up the great work. Luvdisc'd

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