Passive Aggressive [Playable on ROM!]

Illusio

Bold and Brash
(approved by TEG - heavily borrowed from the old thread)

Passive damage is unfair becduause it chips away at your Pokemon indiscriminately. For instance, why should a Fire-type be punished by Leech Seed, a Grass-type move? Why do Flying-types and Water-types take the same amount of damage from Hail even though one is weak to Ice and one resists it? In Passive Aggressive, that's no longer the case. In this metagame, any passive or indirect damage associated with a particular type will deal damage each turn based on how much damage, based on the following chart:
  • 0x effective ~ 0x
  • 1/8x effective ~ 1/8x
  • 1/4x effective ~ 1/4x
  • 1/2x effective ~ 1/2x
  • 1x effective ~ 1x
  • 2x effective ~ 2x
  • 4x effective ~ 4x
  • 8x effective ~ 8x
For example, here's how much damage Hail would do to your Pokemon at the end of every turn depending on its weakness to Ice:
  • 0x effective ~ 0 HP
  • 1/8x effective ~ 1/128 HP
  • 1/4x effective ~ 1/64 HP
  • 1/2x effective ~ 1/32 HP
  • 1x effective ~ 1/16 HP
  • 2x effective ~ 1/8 HP
  • 4x effective ~ 1/4 HP
  • 8x effective ~ 1/2 HP
Here's the list of passive damage, their corresponding types, and how much damage they normally do:
  • Burn ~ Fire ~ 1/8 HP
  • Poison ~ Poison ~ 1/8 HP
  • Toxic Poison ~ Poison ~ 1/16, 2/16, 3/16, etc.
  • Sandstorm ~ Rock ~ 1/16 HP
  • Hail ~ Ice ~ 1/16 HP
  • Stealth Rock ~ Rock ~ 1/8 HP
  • Spikes ~ Ground ~ 1/8 HP (stacking is explained below)
  • Recoil ~ Type of the move used the turn your Pokemon hurts itself calculated against your Pokemon * the amount of recoil damage. This includes the crash damage from High/Jump Kick. ~ Depends on how much damage the move does
  • Trapping damage ~ Type of the move (Whirlpool is Water, Bind is Normal, etc) ~ 1/8 HP
  • Leech Seed ~ Grass ~ 1/8 HP
  • Curse ~ Ghost ~ 1/4 HP
  • Nightmare ~ Ghost ~ 1/4 HP
  • Black Sludge ~ Poison ~ 1/8 HP
  • Spiky Shield ~ Grass ~ 1/8 HP
Spikes:
Spikes work as followed:
  • 1 layer ~ Same as every other passive damage.
  • 2 layers ~ The damage taken from Ground attacks, multiplied by 1.5
  • 3 layers ~ The damage taken from Ground attacks, multiplied by 2.

Rules:
Mechanic
: All type-based passive damage now deals damage based on the type chart.
Clauses: OU clauses
Bans: OU banlist
Unbans: N/A


Strategy:
Passive Aggressive adds extremes to indirect damage, greatly punishing the Pokemon that are very weak to a type while letting neutral and resisted matchups off the hook. For example, Talonflame loses 1/4 of its health every turn from Sandstorm due to its x4 weakness to Rock, but at the same time only loses 1/64 of its health from Leech Seed.

Here's a sample in action:


Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz

With the change to recoil, Mega Charizard X can still hit strong with its Tough Claws-boosted 120 BP Flare Blitz, and only loses 1/4 of the recoil it originally took due to its 1/4 resistance of Fire-type attacks.

Here's another:

Abomasnow @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spe
Lonely / Naughty Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Leech Seed / Ice Shard

Similarly to the other damaging weather setters, Abomasnow has the potential to do big chunks of passive damage against your opponent's team just by showing up. When it needs to attack it has a strong Wood Hammer that only returns 1/2 of the regular recoil thanks to Abomasnow's resistance to Grass.

And another:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Starmie is a notable Spinner thanks to Natural Cure and a neutrality to Stealth Rock and Spikes damage. There's something else that makes it better in Passive Aggressive, however, something that makes its usual switch-in Ferrothorn more nervous than usual: Scald. If Ferrothorn gets burned it will lose a whopping 1/2 of its HP every turn, ruining its ability to check other offensive threats on your team. But Scald isn't totally broken! Other Water-types, for example, won't mind the burn nearly as much now that it only damages them 1/32 HP per turn.

Q&A
Q: How does this affect Pokemon with Magic Guard?
A: They're still immune to passive and indirect damage.

Q: How does this affect Pokemon with Wonder Guard, specifically Shedinja?
A: Shedinja still faints from any passive damage.

Q: What if a move of a different type gives a status condition? For instance, will Scald's burn and Twineedle's poison be Water and Bug or Fire and Poison?
A: Burn and poison are set to always deal Fire and Poison damage, respectively, due to those conditions' associations with those types.

Q: How does Toxic work?
A: Toxic is a super poison and will still increase overtime. A Rock/Ground Pokemon affected with Toxic will take 1/64 HP loss the first turn, then 2/64 loss the next, and 3/64 the next, and so on. A Grass/Fairy Pokemon takes 1/4 the first turn and 2/4 the next, meaning it will have lost 3/4 of its HP in only 2 turns!

Q: What happens if I miss with High Jump Kick or a Ghost-type switches in?
A: Your Pokemon will damage itself based on High Jump Kick's effectiveness versus itself. Mega Lopunny will faint in recoil while Mega Medicham takes a paltry 1/4. Of course Mega Lopunny will still hit the Ghost-type thanks to Scrappy.

Q: Ghosts can't be trapped, so will they still take damage from moves like Whirlpool?
A: Yes. But like you said, they can switch out at any time.

Q: How does this affect Leech Seed?
A: Leech Seed is a Grass move so it will drain damage based on Grass's effectiveness versus the target. A Seeded Rock/Ground type loses 1/4 of HP per turn and the Pokemon receiving the drained HP recovers 1/4 of the Rock/Ground type's max HP for itself.

Q: How does this affect Curse?
A: A Pokemon that uses Curse will damage itself and its target based on Ghost's effectiveness versus both, individually. So a Ghost-type Pokemon will cut its own HP by 1/2 to lay the Curse and a Dark-type target will lose 1/8 of HP per turn. Because they are immune to Ghost, Normal types lose 0 HP.

Q: Speaking of immunities, how are ability, type, or item immunities affected?
A: Immunities are unchanged. A Fire-type Pokemon can never be burned and thus cannot take passive damage based on Fire's effectiveness from a burn. A Pokemon with Sap Sipper is immune to Grass so Leech Seed will always fail against it unless the attacker has Mold Breaker. Pokemon immune to weather via abilities will retain that immunity. (Sand Rush, Ice Body, etc.)

Q: What if a move or Pokemon changes type?
A: It will calculate passive damage based off of the new typing. An Electrified Leech Seed will now use Electric instead of Grass to calculate damage. A burned Kecleon that changes from Normal to Ice will now take 1/4 HP loss instead of 1/8 from the burn.

Q: How does this affect Baton Pass and Leech Seed/Curse/Nightmare?
A: The new Pokemon will start taking passive damage based on its weakness to Grass or Ghost.

Q: Why are some passive damage not included?
A: They're not associated with a specific type so they still do normal damage. This includes Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, Aftermath, Rocky Helmet, Sticky Barb, Life Orb, and those berries that cause recoil.


Resources:
Playability:
Playable on the ROM server (courtesy of urkerab)

Council: N/A

Ban History: N/A

Finally, I would like to conclude with a special thank you for Eevee General, who originally hosted this meta.
 
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Double Edge on Mega Bannette... (Shudders)

Also, Would Wild Charge Electabuzz with Motor Drive be Busted?
Would it take no damage and gain speed for every Wild Charge?
If so, that would be amazing.

Or wild Charge on Thundurus Therian.

Also, Is Iron Barbs/Rough SKin/Rocky Helmet affected by this?
Never mind.

What Would Powder Do?
 
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lost heros

Meme Master
Something I didn't understand from the old thread either, why doesn't rough skin and iron barbs act similar to recoil where it depends on the Pokemon type?
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Something I didn't understand from the old thread either, why doesn't rough skin and iron barbs act similar to recoil where it depends on the Pokemon type?
Because Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin dont have an assosiated type in the games. It could be argued that Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet are assosiated with Steel and Rock types respectively, but what about Rough Skin?
 
Because Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet, and Rough Skin don't have an associated type in the games. It could be argued that Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet are associated with Steel and Rock types respectively, but what about Rough Skin?
Rough Skin is mostly found on Dragon Types, so It could deal Dragon-type damage. Otherwise, I would guess it would deal normal, It seems similar to scratch.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
Because Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin dont have an assosiated type in the games. It could be argued that Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet are assosiated with Steel and Rock types respectively, but what about Rough Skin?
I was just thinking it's the Pokemon's rough skin or the Pokemon Iron Barbs, so it makes sense to me that it's the Pokemon's typing to calculate the passive aggressive damage.
 
I think Iron Barbs dealing Steel-Type damage doesn't mean Rough Skin can't still do typeless damage. Even though Iron Barbs and Rough Skin have the same effect, they are still two distinct abilities and any change made to one of them shouldn't applied to the other one simply because of the same effect. As such I would suggest that Iron Barbs deal Steel-Typed damage while Rough Skin stays the way it is.
As a side note, I really like the idea of Rough Skin and Iron Barbs having different effects. It just somewhat stroke me as odd that a "steel-variation" of an already existing ability was created but its effect didn't differ from the original.

Also a rather silly question, but should this be applied to poison heal as well? I mean it's supposed to revert poison damage into healing (this is really more supposed to be something to think about than an actual suggestion. It would really just weaken Gliscor a bit but power up Poison Heal Breloom).

And rip Soak+Toxic-Alomomola q.q
 
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Electivire @ Cell Battery
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Cross Chop

Yay! Electivire is Relevant!
Use Wild Charge to boost Speed and Attack, thanks to it now being considered electric type, and then Use Ice Punch Earth Quake Crosschop for additional coverage.
Also, Wild charge is now a 90 BP stab that boosts your speed and does NO recoil.

Raichu @ Cell Battery
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 128 Atk / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Extreme Speed

And A mixed Sweeper Raichu Set Because Yolo :|}

Rapidash @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
-
-
-

A fast and 100% deadly set for easily taking out any Pokemon that is neutral to fire. Can Easily 3HKO a max defense Mega Steelix.
 
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So abilities affect this? It looks like we can run a team with Abomasnow, Starmie, and Shedinja for great effect. Shedinja, with its ability, is immune to everything but Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Burns (along with Curse and Nightmare but people aren't going to use them). In fact, if you really want to, you can try to bait a toxic and switch to Shedinja so it becomes 100% immune to statuses with this.

It may be neat or I may have just come up with another gimmick.
 

Illusio

Bold and Brash
So abilities affect this? It looks like we can run a team with Abomasnow, Starmie, and Shedinja for great effect. Shedinja, with its ability, is immune to everything but Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Burns (along with Curse and Nightmare but people aren't going to use them). In fact, if you really want to, you can try to bait a toxic and switch to Shedinja so it becomes 100% immune to statuses with this.

It may be neat or I may have just come up with another gimmick.
From the Q&A:
Q: How does this affect Pokemon with Wonder Guard, specifically Shedinja?
A: Shedinja still faints from any passive damage.
Unfortunately, Shedinja appears to be just as useless as it is in the regular metagame.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Electivire @ Cell Battery
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Cross Chop

Yay! Electivire is Relevant!
Use Wild Charge to boost Speed and Attack, thanks to it now being considered electric type, and then Use Ice Punch Earth Quake Crosschop for additional coverage.
Also, Wild charge is now a 90 BP stab that boosts your speed and does NO recoil.

Raichu @ Cell Battery
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 128 Atk / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Extreme Speed

And A mixed Sweeper Raichu Set Because Yolo :|}

Rapidash @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
-
-
-

A fast and 100% deadly set for easily taking out any Pokemon that is neutral to fire. Can Easily 3HKO a max defense Mega Steelix.
Recoil damage does not activate abilities.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Aw I was Hoping that Recoil would, seeing as How it appears to be dealt in a type now.
Passive damage is dealt with the semblance of the type chart in mind but it doesn't actually deal typed damage, hence why Shedinja can still die from Toxic (even tho Poison isn't super effective against it). The precedence for this is derived from Flame Burst's typeless splash damage, which doesn't activate Flash Fire. If this was a Doubles metagame, Flame Burst would deal splash damage in relation to Fire's type effectiveness to the target's partner but it still would not deal actual Fire damage.

I hope that makes sense.
 
Passive damage is dealt with the semblance of the type chart in mind but it doesn't actually deal typed damage, hence why Shedinja can still die from Toxic (even tho Poison isn't super effective against it). The precedence for this is derived from Flame Burst's typeless splash damage, which doesn't activate Flash Fire. If this was a Doubles metagame, Flame Burst would deal splash damage in relation to Fire's type effectiveness to the target's partner but it still would not deal actual Fire damage.

I hope that makes sense.
Yes. it Does. Thankyou.
 
Sadly Cell Battery doesn't activate anyways unless you take actual damage from an electric type move. So a Pokémon with Lightningrod, Motor Drive or Volt Absorb or another Electric-Immunity (Ground, Wonder Guard) could never activate its Cell Battery because the damage is completely blocked.
 

Illusio

Bold and Brash
What happens if a flash fire user uses flare blitz?
They would still take damage like any other Pokemon that uses Flare Blitz. Flash Fire doesn't prevent recoil from Flare Blitz in-game, so it should still deal recoil in Passive Aggressive.
 
I wonder what a meta without ferro will be like, as it takes so much damage from burn it can't come in on scald often.
 
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I guess we will not only have Abomasnow as a top-tier-thread now but also Icy Rock might outclass the Mega now.
Top tier threat? It still has a thoroughly unimpressive statline and an atrocious defensive typing. Plus it's even more hospitable to the Fire- and Steel-types that already liked switching in. I can't see it breaking into B+, viability-wise. Still, though, it will definitely be a noteworthy threat and a choice for teams that want to wear down Ice-weak Pokemon. It will pair excellently with Water-types, which can easily tolerate its Hail damage and spam Scalds against those same Fire- and Steel-types.

The real top tier threat of this meta will be Clefable, because it has no time for any of this "passive damage" crap, and there are a few new tricks to beat up Steel-types if that's your style. Yeah... Spikes + Clefable seems solid. Add Sandstorm to the equation for dank edgequake coverage.
 

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