1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Passive damage

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by cfdu1202, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. cfdu1202

    cfdu1202

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    45
    Passive damage

    Before I begin, sorry for my poor english :p

    Introduction: Uber has always been a rain-based metagame, but with the newly improved Ho-oh, Reshiram, and Zekrom (who has a powerful electric-type attack usable in sun), sun offense became a very effective playstyle, illustrated by Groudon, who took once the first place in usage in Smogon server 1337 Ubers Stats. But stalling with sun is also possible, but it requires a lot of knowledge of the uber metagame, and it is overall more difficult to play than rain stall, sand stall, or classic stall. With this team, I peaked at 21st place (on PO, since not a lot of people play Uber on Smogon), and it is still raising, but i don't think I will manage to go higher on the ladder, there's simply a lot of uber players better than me.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Teambuilding process:
    Show Hide
    I wanted to try bulky Ho-oh's set, with whirlwind, and since this team is based around it, I put Ho-oh.
    [​IMG]
    Then, Ho-oh wants sun, obviously. Also Ho-oh can take special hits, while Groudon can take physical hits fairly well.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Now I need a spinner, against stealth rock and toxic spikes, while being able to lay hazard too. I had two choices there: Forretress and Tentacruel. You ,may think that Tenta is a better choice here, because I already have a Kyogre weakness, but I tested both and Forretress is overall the better choice, and can sponge outrages from the likes of Garchomp. Also, Forretress can beat Ferrothorn one-on-one.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Status destroys my team, so a Heal Beller will help me a lot. I chose Blissey. Blissey can check Kyogre to an extent, and holding leftovers is a huge plus for her. That's why I chose her over Chansey. She acts as a wisher too.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now CM Kyogre still wrecks my team, as does CM Mewtwo. Also, a trick absorber and revenge killer is mandatory in any uber team, without it Darkrai can be annoying. A physical one is better, because the only special revenge killer that can handle CM Mewtwo is Kyogre, and I don't want rain. Go Zekrom!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Groudon is an extremekiller counter, however if it is paired with something like DD/SD Rayquaza, SD Excadrill, RP Groudon, CB Terrakion, then my Groudon won't be able to check all of them. I also need a spinblocker. Arceus-Ghost > both Giratina Forms, because I can burn all of these threats (bar DD Ray and Exca in sand) before they attack.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Originally I had Choice scarf Darkrai over Zekrom, but CM Kyogre was a huge problem. And I spent a lot of time testing the pokemon's moves.


    Details about the team:
    [​IMG]
    Groudon @ leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Roar
    Why this Pokemon: It provides sun, it's my stealth rocker, and can check Ho-oh with Stone Edge. It counters DD and SD Rayquaza, CS/CB/Rock polish Terrakion, Extremekiller, SD Arceus, SD and Rock polish Groudon, Physical Kingdra, Kabutops, Zekrom. Every single physical threat in the game loses one-on-one.
    Why these moves: Stealth rock is very important for any team, it helps keeping threats like Ho-oh, Lugia, Reshiram at bay, it reduces Water Spouts power, and automatically breaks focus sash. Earthquake is its most powerful STAB, it demolishes Tyranitar and Tentacruel. Kyogre cannot switch in Earthquake unless it's a bulky variant. Stone Edge, despite its accuracy, is needed against Salamence, Ho-oh, and Rayquaza (OHKO after rocks). Roar over Dragon Tail because it phaze substitutes, against sub Ho-oh it's really useful.
    Nature and Evs: An Impish nature with 252 ev in hp and defense gives Groudon a lot of physical bulk. One of the most physically bulky pokemon in the game. The remaining 4 ev is put in sp.defense. Groudon once survived bulky CM mewtwo's +1 Ice beam with 1 hp and earthquaked back for the win.

    [​IMG]
    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Hp / 4 Def / 252 Spdef
    Careful Nature (+Spdef, -Spatk)
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Pain Split
    Why this pokemon: It's the most reliable rapid spinner in the uber metagame, and can lay down both spikes and toxic spikes. It has so many opportunities to set up. However, I play Forretress very carefully, as the hazard is key to this team's success. Against Giratina, Lugia and Ferrothorn, it's free set-up time.
    Why these moves: Spikes + Toxic Spikes = pain for the opponent. Rapid spin to remove hazards. Do I really need to explain these moves? The fourth slot is a bit tricky, but it helps me to outstall ferrothorn, giratina sometimes, and let me to not rely too much on Blissey's wishes.
    Nature and Evs Forretress need full Spdef in Uber. Period. Absorbing Spacial rends, and draco meteors is very important and it can survive Giratina-O's hidden power fire in the rain.

    [​IMG]
    Blissey @ leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Def / 252 Spdef
    Calm (+Spdef, -Atk)
    - Heal Bell
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Seismic Toss
    Why this pokemon: The best special wall in the game, that's is. A great counter to special Palkia and Dialga in the rain. The best supporter, she can heal Groudon to full health, cure Arceus-Ghost who switched into Forretress's Toxic, etc. Also, my first switch-in to Kyogre. Specs one are dealt with entry hazard. She can have 12% of revovery since she has protect.
    Why these moves: Heal bell for status, Wish+Protect for reliable healing for her and her teammates. Seismic Toss for not being taunt bait, and can hit Arceus as it sword dances for 100 damage or Thundurus.
    Nature and Ev: As her Hp is already very high, maximising her defenses is the best way to go. She needs a calm nature to deeal with the powerhouse in uber such as Kyogre, unlike in OU. 252 ev in defense let her take Earthquakes from support Groudon and random Dragon Tails.

    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 Hp / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Judgment
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flamethrower
    - Recover
    Why this pokemon: Acting as my first extremekiller check, he can burn extremekiller and stall. It's my spinblocker, but it's not Spikes-bait thanks to Flamethrower. He can revenge Giratina-O, or take a hit from Mewtwo and Ko back in a pinch. 120/120/120 defense is pretty solid.
    Why these moves: Judgment is a powerful STAB attack, even uninvested. Will-O-Wisp to burn physical treats, especially Lum Berry Arceus. Recover to stay healthy, as he doesn't have passive recovery. Initially I had Focus Blast in the last slot, but Forretress and Ferrothorn are more of a pain so Flamethrower to deal with them while still doing decent damage to Extremekiller in the sun.
    Nature and Evs: Max speed to tie with other forms of Arceus, and he is still very bulky with 252 ev in HP.

    [​IMG]
    Ho-oh @ leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 Hp / 236 Spdef / 24 Spe
    Careful (+SpDef, -Spatk)
    - Sacred Fire
    - Whirlwind
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    Why this pokemon: Ho-oh is one of the best pokemon in the uber metagame, which tend to be specially based. It has monster spdef and an slightly above average attack (by Uber standards), with two potent Stabs in Sacred fire and Brave bird. It can defeat almost any calm mind versions of arceus, and this is very important, as CM dark arceus walks all over a stall team. It can handle darkrai, and, in the sun, Dialga, Palkia, and Reshiram!
    Why these moves: Sacred fire is its STAB, and defeats steel types that cannot be poisoned (bar Heatran). Behind a Subsitute it can whirlwind any pokemon for more passive damage. Roost is its recovery move. Also Roost > Recover to stall burned Stone Edges.
    Nature and Evs: 248hp gives it an odd number, so it can switch two times into SR without dying. 236 ev in spdef hits the last bonus point, and with a careful nature, it can stall modest Reshiram's choice specs Blue Fire in the sun! Two choice specs Draco Meteor from modest base 150 spatk max out at 96% (1st hit: 53.7% - 63.6%, 2nd: 27% - 32%), meaning it is one of the best special wall in the uber metagame.

    [​IMG]
    Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpAtk)
    - Bolt Strike
    -Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Outrage
    - Volt Switch
    Why this pokemon: Zekrom patches so much weakness in this team, such as CM Kyogre, Ho-oh, Arceus forms that Ho-oh cannot handle, and Mewtwo. Having a trick absorber is always nice for a stall team, although it requires a lot of prediction.
    Why these moves: Dragon + Electric give good coverage, and with Bolt Strike and Outrage Zekrom doesn't need to hit super-effectively to deal good amount of damage. I use HP Ice over Dragon Claw, Donkey suggested me to do so, because I am very Gliscor weak. Volt Switch is useful to defeat Kyogre + Ferrothorn cores, I volt switch as the opponent switches to Ferrothorn, and then I can set up with Forretress.
    Nature and Evs: As most scarfed pokemons, a simple 252/252 spread is ok. I don't really need the additionnal speed with a positive speed nature, so I made him Adamant.

    Importable:
    Show Hide
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bolt Strike
    - Dragon Claw
    - Outrage
    - Volt Switch

    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Judgment
    - Flamethrower

    Forretress (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Pain Split
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Heal Bell
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Seismic Toss

    Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 236 SDef / 24 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Whirlwind
    - Substitute
    - Sacred Fire
    - Roost


    Threatlist:
    Show Hide

    Abomasnow: It's not annoying for my team, as Forretress can set up, Ho-oh too, and Arceus-Ghost can surprise him with Flamethrower. But hail is a problem.
    Blaziken: Quite problematic if he sets up, but Blissey has protect to make Blaziken miss HJK, and I have arceus-ghost too. He can only set up against Blissey and Forretress. Poison deal with him quite well too.
    Blissey: Not a problem, if she doesn't have Flamethrower Forretress can lay entry hazards, Ho-oh can set up unbreakable subs, and my own Blissey cures any status she inflicted. Zekrom.
    Bronzong: Ho-oh, Groudon and Arceus-Ghost to an extent, Forretress.
    Bug-Arceus: Ho-oh (if he doesn't have Stone Edge), Arceus-Ghost, Blissey if badly poisoned.
    Chansey: see Blissey.
    Cloyster: Arceus-Ghost can handle a hit and OHKO back. Hard to deal with, though.
    Dark-Arceus: Ho-oh beats him. Zekrom can revenge a weakened one.
    Darkrai: Ho-oh can deal with it pretty easily, but a member of my team will be asleep. I have Heal bell, however.
    Deoxys: Nonexistant.
    Deoxys-A: Ho-oh. Forretress if it doesn't have fire punch.
    Deoxys-D: Toxic spikes lol. He shouldn't be used in Ubers.
    Deoxys-s: Forretress, as most doesn't have Fire Punch.
    Dialga: Choiced versions are handled by Ho-oh and Blissey. Lead is countered by Ho-oh too if it has Dragon Tail over Roar. Mixed versions are tricky, but once at -2 spatk Groudon can wall him. Bulk Up is countered by Groudon.
    Dragon-Arceus: Physical ones by Groudon and Arceus-Ghost, special ones by Blissey and Ho-oh. Not much of a problem.
    Dugtrio: He can easily trap Zekrom, and Blissey, even though Blissey has a chance to outstall it if toxic spikes are up.
    Electric-Arceus: Only Blissey can stop it, with toxic spikes. Groudon takes too much damage from Ice beam. However, if my Ho-oh is behind a sub when he comes in, he loses.
    Excadrill: Groudon and Arceus-Ghost. It has a hard time sweeping my team.
    Ferrothorn: Surprise Flamethrower from Arceus-Ghost, but I usually set up with Forretress. Oh, and Ho-oh.
    Fighting-Arceus: Ho-oh. I've never seen a physical one, so I guess Groudon and Arceus-Ghost should be ok.
    Fire-Arceus: Ho-oh can take a thunderbolt and whirlwind, Blissey, and Zekrom who resists Fire Blast and Thunder(bolt).
    Flying-Arceus: Ho-oh, and Zekrom.
    Forretress: Arceus-Ghost, and Ho-oh.
    Garchomp: Arceus-Ghost can burn slower variants, Groudon stalls, and Forretress counters scarfed versions too.
    Gastrodon: Hazards, Ho-oh in the sun. Toxic is annoying though.
    Ghost Arceus: Groudon walls the sword dancer, while Ho-oh do the same with the supporter and the calm minder.
    Giratina: Spikes time for forretress, Ho-oh is faster, its sub survives dragon tail, and whirlwind before they roar. Arceus-Ghost 2-3HKO.
    Giratina-O: Quite tricky, but only groudon and forretress is defeated one-on-one. Ho-oh can switch into draco meteor, set up a sub and proceed to burn it. Outrage versions are a pain. Calm minder is countered by Ho-oh.
    Gliscor: Walls all my team without exception. The only way I can beat it is to lure it with Zekrom. Not very reliable.
    Grass-Arceus: Ho-oh, Forretress.
    Groudon: My only hope against rock polish variants is my own Groudon. It won't appreciate spikes. Slower variants can be dealt with arceus-ghost.
    Ground-Arceus: exactly the same way I deal with Groudon.
    Heatran: my Ho-oh outspeed and sub before he taunts. Choiced versions are even easier to deal.
    Heracross: Groudon and Arceus-Ghost can switch-in and defeat them one-on-one.
    Ho-oh: Who doesn't have problem with Ho-oh, unless when using bulky CM Kyogre,or Rock Arceus? The reason why I keep Stone edge and roar on Groudon. Zekrom is also a good counter, but hates burns.
    Hydreigon: Blissey and Ho-oh (beware of Head Smash). Forretress can switch-in on any attack not named Fire Blast.
    Ice-Arceus: Ho-oh, and Blissey if badly poisoned.
    Jirachi: Groudon is its best counter. I can set up with Forrretress. I can burn it with Arceus-Ghost.
    Jumpluff: Something is gonna be asleep, but then Ho-oh and groudon can phaze. Zekrom to an extent, but it is outsped.
    Kingdra: Groudon takes its attacks fairly well unless it has draco meteor, thanks to the sun. He cuts its speed too. Arceus-Ghost can handle a hit and burn it.
    Kyogre: Specs runs all over my team if I don't have entry hazards up. But i've never been swept by a single one, even before Zekrom replaces darkrai. Other versions are well-covered by Blissey and Zekrom.
    Lucario: Groudon takes 69.8% - 82.4% from adamant close combat and can OHKO back. Arceus-Ghost can will-o-wisp.
    Ludicolo: in the rain only Blissey can stop it. But in any other weather zekrom can revenge, ho-oh can take surfs and phaze or ko back.
    Lugia: He won't enjoy judgments from Arceus-Ghost, and it's spikes time for Forretress.
    Magnezone: As Forretress is the most important member of my team, I have to play very carefully. Groudon can stomach a hidden power and ko back.
    Mamoswine: Arceus-Ghost can burn it, then Forretress can begin to spikes.
    Manaphy: Zekrom wrecks it, Groudon can switch in when it tail grows or rest, then i stall with blissey.
    Metagross: Groudon, Arceus-Ghost will-o-wisps.
    Mew: Groudon and Ho-oh phazes but if it has taunt it becomes problematic.
    Mewtwo: Who doesn't have problem with this guy? To counter it completely you have to use Specially defensive Dark or physhic Arceus. Zekrom can revenge it, and poison coupled with life orb shorten its life.
    Normal-Arceus: Groudon and Arceus-ghost. The defensive wall is countered by Ho-oh.
    Palkia: Blissey walls special sets. In the sun, Ho-oh can take anything.
    Poison-Arceus: Absorbing my toxic spikes is very annoying. Groudon and Ho-oh can defeat him though.
    Psychic-Arceus: Ho-oh, Blissey if badly poisoned.
    Qwilfish: Groudon and Arceus-Ghost.
    Rayquaza: With Groudon and Arceus-Ghost, I have DD and SD versions covered. However, mixed versions can rampage through my team is it predicts right. I can still revenge this version with Zekrom.
    Reshiram: Ho-oh walls any versions lacking Stone Edge, Blissey to an extent.
    Rock-Arceus: Toxic spikes and Blissey. Groudon if it doesn't have will-o-wisp or grass knot.
    Salamence: Groudon should be fine.
    Scizor: Groudon, Arceus-Ghost, Forretress, Ho-oh.
    Shaymin-S: Ho-oh and Zekrom.
    Skarmory: Arceus-Ghost (in neutral weather), Ho-oh, Forretress, Zekrom.
    Steel-Arceus: Ho-oh and groudon walk all over this.
    Tentacruel: If it burns Arceus-Ghost, it can be annoying. Groudon deals a lot of damage, even when burned. Ho-oh cannot stop him from laying hazard or spin, but can set up. The fact that it absorbs toxic spikes is also problematic.
    Terrakion: Groudon + Arceus Ghost.
    Tyranitar: Groudon. I try to lay down toxic spikes as soon as possible. Once Groudon is down, my team won't have any chance of winning.
    Venusaur: He absorbs toxic spikes. And can put one of my pokemon asleep. Ho-oh handle this well.
    Water-Arceus: I can cut his power with Groudon, OHKO with Zekrom or burn it with Arceus-Ghost.
    Whimsicott: I don't mind encore as I set up hazards. Toxic spikes can deal with it.
    Wobbuffet: As all the pokemon in my team are very important, losing one of them opens large holes in my defensive core. The only thing I can do is to watch out.
    Zekrom: Groudon is one of his best counter. He hates burns from Arceus-Ghost.


    Thanks for reading!
  2. Varfor

    Varfor

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2012
    Messages:
    43
    My only suggestion would be to replace Blissey with Chansey. With the introduction of the Eviolite, the only advantage of using Blissey is if you need Blissey's higher Special Attack. As you are not taking advantage of Blissey's Special Attack, it would be more useful for you to use Chansey, who has significantly higher defenses, while only losing leftovers, which your higher defenses make up for.

    If less people thought this, there would be more people playing Ubers on Smogon's server. You should play on Smogon's server anyway.
  3. cfdu1202

    cfdu1202

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    45
    First of all, thank you for your suggestions.
    I tested both Chansey and Blissey for a long time, and, while chansey's bulk can be useful sometimes (such as against mixed dialga, mixed palkia and giratina-o), those 12% of recovery (with protect) on blissey actually matter a lot. The ubers spinblockers are very bulky, so it is harder to spin hazard, and chansey will get low on health very quickly. Also, sandstorm teams seem to be more and more common, forcing chansey to recover her health, so that i cannot wishpass effectively. However, I will retest chansey over blissey.
    The reason why I don't play uber on smogon server is that i'm not living in North America, and when I have time to play, there are often no more than ~130 players on the server. I will obviously play on smogon server if there's more player, smogon players are overall better.
  4. Varfor

    Varfor

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2012
    Messages:
    43
    I suppose that I can't really blame you for not playing on Smogon when there is so few people online, especially since even at best there are only ever about 20 people playing Ubers.

    Even though there are more Sandstorm teams these days, you should not have too much trouble keeping sunshine going, as Groudon easily walls Tyranitar and can switch in on any of its moves bar the rare Ice beam or Fire Blast and threaten to deal huge amounts of damage. (Even though Fire Blast is fairly common due to the high usage of Ferrothorn and Forretress, it is unlikely that an opponent would use it unless you had Forretress out.) If you find that Sandstorm teams give you too much trouble, then it might be advantageous to keep Blissey, but sandstorm should really only be a problem for Chansey if you run sand yourself.
    You also should not rely on Protect too much as it gives your opponents free switches or turns to set up.
  5. cfdu1202

    cfdu1202

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    45
    The problem with sandstorm teams is not tyranitar itself, but Tyranitar+ferrothorn+gliscor core. With only three pokemon a smart player can beat me.
    I'm still testing Chansey, but with this moveset: wish/softboiled(protect?)/heal bell/toxic
    Now, with protect or without, opposing pokemons can switch in for free. I need toxic to beat CM arceus that Ho-oh can't handle such as Electric Arceus, as toxic spikes won't always be set up.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)