Past Gen RNG Research

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
In fact it does. In my experience, if you hit the same seed and wait the EXACT same time (some terribly small incriment) to talk to the old man to accept your egg, you'll get the exact same egg. If you hit the same seed but take even slightly more or less time (some terribly small incriment) you'll get different Inherited IVs on the egg and a different PID (like Bitterlemon described earlier). I noticed this when paying attention to EXACTLY where those two spinning mons stopped. If they stopped at EEEEEEEXACTLY the same point along the bottom of that fence there (and I mean EEEEEEXACTLY) I got the same IVs and PID. If they were one or even sometimes a half a fencepost further or shorter, I got different (but consistent) IVs / PID. I'll post it later I'm on my Wii.

[edit]
As an example:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Synching to 10-25-10 00:01:00
Emloop set to 27.0.
Spam A to pick up egg. Watch the EYE of the "spinners" in the upper R Corner.

A) 17 / 27 / 2 / 23 / 10 / 29
B) 8 / 6 / 23 / 9 / 1 / 18

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Reset #1)
Stopping Point: 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd posts
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 / 9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #2)
Stopping Point: tip of the 2nd post
IVs: 8 / 26 / 18 / 11 / 1 / 29 (B / 26 / 18 / 11 / B / A)
PID: 10221 58089
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #3)
Stopping Point: 3rd post
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 /9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #4)
Stopping Point: 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd posts
IVs: 4 / 6 / 23 / 23 / 7 / 5 (4 / B / B / A / 7 / 5)
PID: 21096 48060
IVMTRNG: 39249 34926

Reset #5)
Stopping Point: 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd posts
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 / 9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #6)
Stopping Point: 3rd post
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 / 9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #7)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #8)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #9)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #10)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

The fence posts that the mon stopped at always coincided with what IVs/PID the egg hatched with. This "seems" similar to 4th Gen eggs (PID wise at least).
 
In fact it does. In my experience, if you hit the same seed and wait the EXACT same time (some terribly small incriment) to talk to the old man to accept your egg, you'll get the exact same egg. If you hit the same seed but take even slightly more or less time (some terribly small incriment) you'll get different Inherited IVs on the egg and a different PID (like Bitterlemon described earlier). I noticed this when paying attention to EXACTLY where those two spinning mons stopped. If they stopped at EEEEEEEXACTLY the same point along the bottom of that fence there (and I mean EEEEEEXACTLY) I got the same IVs and PID. If they were one or even sometimes a half a fencepost further or shorter, I got different (but consistent) IVs / PID. I'll post it later I'm on my Wii.

[edit]
As an example:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Synching to 10-25-10 00:01:00
Emloop set to 27.0.
Spam A to pick up egg. Watch the EYE of the "spinners" in the upper R Corner.

A) 17 / 27 / 2 / 23 / 10 / 29
B) 8 / 6 / 23 / 9 / 1 / 18

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Reset #1)
Stopping Point: 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd posts
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 / 9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #2)
Stopping Point: tip of the 2nd post
IVs: 8 / 26 / 18 / 11 / 1 / 29 (B / 26 / 18 / 11 / B / A)
PID: 10221 58089
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #3)
Stopping Point: 3rd post
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 /9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #4)
Stopping Point: 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd posts
IVs: 4 / 6 / 23 / 23 / 7 / 5 (4 / B / B / A / 7 / 5)
PID: 21096 48060
IVMTRNG: 39249 34926

Reset #5)
Stopping Point: 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd posts
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 / 9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #6)
Stopping Point: 3rd post
IVs: 31 / 26 / 18 / 9 / 10 / 29 (31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A)
PID: 14875 27425
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #7)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #8)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #9)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

Reset #10)
Stopping Point: between 1st and 2nd posts
IVs: 31 / 6 / 2 / 11 / 24 / 29 (31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A)
PID: 46682 31608
IVMTRNG: 23295 65501

The fence posts that the mon stopped at always coincided with what IVs/PID the egg hatched with. This "seems" similar to 4th Gen eggs (PID wise at least).
it isn't the waiting itself that advanses the frame, it's the moving objects that advances it (not saving in front of the ossan and waiting won't advance the frame since the spinning mons isn't showing).
 
Is anyone else having a lot more trouble hitting certain spreads compared to other spreads? For example, the spread for the quint Monozu I have is a lot easier to hit than the A/A/B/31/31/B spread I've found. Could this have anything to do with the effect of the NPC's? Could there be certain advances to the RNG applied by the NPC's that are more common? Or could this caused by my sloppy time synching? I have tested a lot though...
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
it isn't the waiting itself that advanses the frame, it's the moving objects that advances it (not saving in front of the ossan and waiting won't advance the frame since the spinning mons isn't showing).
duh, but the more time you wait, the more the NPCs move. this is common knowledge since 4th gen. as shadow knight said before, you can wait to let the frame advance.
Is anyone else having a lot more trouble hitting certain spreads compared to other spreads? For example, the spread for the quint Monozu I have is a lot easier to hit than the A/A/B/31/31/B spread I've found. Could this have anything to do with the effect of the NPC's? Could there be certain advances to the RNG applied by the NPC's that are more common? Or could this caused by my sloppy time synching? I have tested a lot though...
Yeah. Resaving fixes that some times, just like 4th Gen.
 
Is anyone else having a lot more trouble hitting certain spreads compared to other spreads?
That happens because some seeds have a lot of frames with the ivs that you want and with the parents' inheritance that you hope for, you have more chance to hit a good frame.

Let's think about a possible (theoretical) seed that gives six 31 ivs as a static layer. In this case you'll get a flawless poke regardless of which frame you hit (assuming flawless parents).
Frame1= 31/a/31/b/b/31
Frame2= 31/b/31/31/b/a
Frame3= b/31/a/b/31/31
 
How would a Power Item affect things? Would all the IVs be passed down INCLUDING the IV passed down with the Power Item, or would one be swapped out?
It would be swapped out randomly, the iv that will be swapped out varies with the frame.

EDIT: BlueJello, you can ask your questions in the proper thread, but I highly suggest you to read the previous posts as they include the answer to your last few questions.
 
It would be swapped out randomly, the iv that will be swapped out varies with the frame.
So, what moves the frame? Randomly waiting? If so, how long should I wait? Advancing the frame also changes nature, correct?

I have a spread where four IVs are passed down. If I can find myself the Power Item for Special Defense and pass that down (it's originally an IV of 2, not great) and can change the nature with an Everstone, I could be on to a few great Pokemon.

EDIT: I'm experimenting on a retail cart (White), btw.
EDIT2: Alright, I'll post there if I get stuck.
 
Here's a couple of findings that are pratical for EGG abuse:

When searching spreads:
If you find a spread with a single 31 try and SR on the same Date/Time a couple of times and try hitting a different frame by waiting a little before collecting the egg. Since different IV are inherited on different frames you can figure out if the seed has more 31's to offfer that may have been overwritten by parent IV's in previous tries.

When breeding the final result:
Don't hesitate to use Everstone or Power items, they have only been benificial from my experience.
 

Expert Evan

every battle has a smell!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Let me see if I understand this 5th generation egg RNG correctly as follows:

I have 2 parents as follows:

jolly male onondo: 29/13/26/29/6/5
jolly female onondo: 23/13/2/31/25/12 holding everstone

The daycare guy announces there's an egg, so I save game in front of him.

on my R4, I select pokemon white at 11/11/2010 at 7:42:10 and keep pressing A and keep c-gear off, then immediately talk for egg.

1st attempt: jolly female kibago: 24/13/11/31/6/27 inherits attack/sp.atk/sp.def
2nd attempt: timid female kibago: 20/13/2/29/19/10 inherits attack/defense/sp.atk

Am I doing something wrong here?
 
Let me see if I understand this 5th generation egg RNG correctly as follows:

I have 2 parents as follows:

jolly male onondo: 29/13/26/29/6/5
jolly female onondo: 23/13/2/31/25/12 holding everstone

The daycare guy announces there's an egg, so I save game in front of him.

on my R4, I select pokemon white at 11/11/2010 at 7:42:10 and keep pressing A and keep c-gear off, then immediately talk for egg.

1st attempt: jolly female kibago: 24/13/11/31/6/27 inherits attack/sp.atk/sp.def
2nd attempt: timid female kibago: 20/13/2/29/19/10 inherits attack/defense/sp.atk

Am I doing something wrong here?
It looks like the random IV's are different, so you're hitting a different seed. This can be caused by either starting the game to late or early or by hitting a different "delay". The time you spend between game boot and Save selection(not C-gear settings) affects your seed from what I've seen.

I don't know how seed to frame relations work exactly so I can't say if your frame is different. It's possble that your hitting the same frame but that is has different inheritance for a different seed, I'm not sure if it works this way though.
Does anyone know how and if seed and frame are linked?
 
I'm not sure I clearly understand the "Save selection" part. Is it when I previously save the game or something?
I'm referring to the screen that comes up after your version legend's done showing of. The screen with Continue, New Game, Wi-Fi Settings, etc. The time between starting the game and selecting Continue is what has an influence.
 

Expert Evan

every battle has a smell!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Here's my attempt with same parents where I
boot game at 11/11/2010 8:19:15 then
press A on legend screen at 11/11/2010 8:19:30

adamant male kibago: 23/31/29/29/6/14 HP,sp.atk,sp.def
careful male kibago: 23/30/26/30/25/11 HP,defense,sp.def

so I'm wondering if the delay is at a millisecond or something here similar to delays back in 4th generation or they should be at the date/time to the seconds somehow.
 
I do think that the delay requires the same precision as in gen 4. I've been tapping the a button at roughly the same tempo each time while breeding Burungeru and I hit the same seed ~75% of the time.
 
Just going to post what I understand to be happening...So the time (delay) from reset -> continue sets the seed and "base IV set" of the egg waiting at the daycare e.g in TSK's case 4/25/31/31/6/2. Then, from the time (delay2?) you wait after entering the game to talking to the daycare man decides which of the parents IVs are inherited. You can manipulate this using Power Items. I'm still a bit unclear on how the Nature is decided, but it seems you can also force this with an Everstone (on either parent?)

Is this pretty much what's going on?

edit: I found this one randomly SRing: B/20/17/A/31/B. I should be able to use power items to move the As and Bs around to see if there are any more 30/31s underneath right? Or just wait different amounts of time from picking up the egg?

edit 2: got it down to x/20/17/16/31/x

3: 20/20/17/16/31/x please let the speed be good :(

4: 20/20/17/16/31/15 :( back to the sring board
 
Just going to post what I understand to be happening...So the time (delay) from reset -> continue sets the seed and "base IV set" of the egg waiting at the daycare e.g in TSK's case 4/25/31/31/6/2. Then, from the time (delay2?) you wait after entering the game to talking to the daycare man decides which of the parents IVs are inherited. You can manipulate this using Power Items. I'm still a bit unclear on how the Nature is decided, but it seems you can also force this with an Everstone (on either parent?)

Is this pretty much what's going on?
This is pretty much what's going on from my understanding. The "second delay" or wait after starting the game advances the frame that determines which Iv's will be inherited. I think the Power items and Everstone when their effects are applied make the game search the next frame that meets the conditions. I conclude because I hit the exact same Nature/gender/ability/IV inheritance combination when waiting different amounts of time after game start when using Everstone + Power item. When changing the used Power item I consistently hit another Nature/gender/ability/IV inheritance combination.
 

ΩDonut

don't glaze me bro
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Programmer Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
This is pretty much what's going on from my understanding. The "second delay" or wait after starting the game advances the frame that determines which Iv's will be inherited. I think the Power items and Everstone when their effects are applied make the game search the next frame that meets the conditions. I conclude because I hit the exact same Nature/gender/ability/IV inheritance combination when waiting different amounts of time after game start when using Everstone + Power item. When changing the used Power item I consistently hit another Nature/gender/ability/IV inheritance combination.
You're mostly right, except there is no "second delay" -- the IVs that are chosen is dependent on the RNG normally used for PID\nature, which advances as the NPCs move around. At this point it's easiest to find a good seed by trial and error and then use the Power items to force the inheritance of certain IVs.

EDIT: Even if we do figure out how the RNG is seeded, you'll still need the Power items to help counter the effects of the NPCs.

I've been working on a program to determine the exact value of the initial seed of the PID\nature RNG. Knowing this value would allow people to manipulate nature\shininess on a real cart, without needing an AR. This is how it would be used:

[1] Start the game at the DS date\time that gives you the desired initial seed.
[2] Select "New Game".
[3] Begin the process of starting a new game, up to the point you can open the menu. (Obviously, do not save at any point.)
[4] When Professor Araragi asks you a Yes\No question right after you input your nickname, choose YES. (Choosing NO even once at this point means you will have to start again from step 1.)
[5] Look at your new Trainer Card and record the trainer ID.
[6] Repeat steps 1-5, but when Araragi asks you Yes\No after the nickname, say NO once to go back to the nickname screen, then say YES. Record the trainer ID that results.
[7] Repeat step 6, but this time say NO twice before saying YES. Record the trainer ID that results.
[8] Repeat step 7, but this time say NO three times before saying YES. Record the trainer ID that results.
[9] Enter the four IDs into this program, in the order you obtained them.
[10] Look at the list of natures that results and compare them with Pokemon you caught.
However, apparently it can only find the last 48 bits of the seed, at the most. I'd need more information to find the first 16 bits. I could use the IVs, but the initial seed for the nature\PID and IV RNGs are different (the nature\PID RNG seed is that of IVRNG after an unknown amount of advances).
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
EDIT: I've mapped the seed out completely too, by observing my spreads on different frames, it's:

4/25/31/31/6/24
My God! You're brilliant! How did I not see this method before?!

Just looking back at some of my recent Resets I see:

(31 / B / A / 11 / 24 / A) between 1st and 2nd post
(31 / 26 / 18 / B / A / A) 2nd post
(B / 26 / 18 / 11 / B / A) 3rd post
31 / 26 / 18 / 11 / 24 / ?

That clears up sooooooooo much confusion, I just never once thought to stack the frames on top of each other and look at it that way! Great find!! This will really help in Resetting for good seeds!!
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
Always glad to provide an insight, mattj =]

It's really helpful to know your entire random spread to check if your hitting your seed.
It also tells you if you've found a good seed to fool around with, or if you should change your Date/Time and keep looking.

*and I usually check my seed with Kaphotic's seed check codes a few pages back :3*

/me goes to check his previous results for a good seed...
 

ΩDonut

don't glaze me bro
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Programmer Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
By the way, if you're using the RNG check code on the IV RNG, the IVs used for the egg such as

Code:
31 / 26 / 18 / 11 / 24 / ?
also can be found with RNG Reporter, except they're farther down the list. I can't remember how much farther, and I'd test it myself but I'm a little busy. I'm sure mattj or someone else will find it anyway. :)
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
By the way, if you're using the RNG check code on the IV RNG, the IVs used for the egg such as

Code:
31 / 26 / 18 / 11 / 24 / ?
also can be found with RNG Reporter, except they're farther down the list. I can't remember how much farther, and I'd test it myself but I'm a little busy. I'm sure mattj or someone else will find it anyway. :)
Ha! You know, I actually spent like 2 hours looking and looking and couldn't find anything yetserday (but I hadn't come to the realization of "base IVs" at that time either, so I don't think I knew what I was looking for). I'll take another look... It uses the MT IVRNG, but just further down the list?

/me goes back to the researcher