All Gens Past gens throwback : Suspected mons.

[Mr.E]

Mew barely hits harder than Rhydon at +2, so while theoretically it could sweep I'm not really sure how valid a worry that is. I'm not sure SD Mew is any more threatening than Tobybro, who has the bonus of its boosting move also improving defense on the side and mono-attacks more effectively, leaving room for T-Wave (or Withdraw if you're so inclined).

Maybe still a better "sweeper" than Mewtwo, if by which you mean just boost and start killing shit, but I think of the latter as more super-Alakazam anyway because you're right, there's always something that can tank its attacks. Zam/Chansey can easily tank one shot of anything to inflict PAR and either begin Operation PP Stall or open up the slower, physical threats to take it down; depending on the moveset there are additional mons that can take hits too. But nothing actually beats Mewtwo 1v1 (IIRC not even Mew) and it's hardly worse than Tauros at tearing down a weakened team. I mean hell, +2 Mewtwo Psychic literally OHKOs said Tauros (~55% of the time), Rhydon, does like 80% to Snorlax... you really need Chansey or a Psychic to tank that shit, and every Psychic but Zam (or your own Mew/Mewtwo)(Hypno doesn't count) could get nailed by a coverage move. Mewtwo is super dangerous until you know its moveset, since you either have to play ultra-scared (hope both Chansey and Zam are on your team) or you risk running into an OHKO, which is otherwise unheard of in RBY.

 

[Mr.378]

I always have been bothered that drizzle in BW was never at the very least suspected outside of some the earlier tests. It seemed bad that Drizzle was given a free pass because it allows for a few play styles to exist when in order to keep it a few non complex bans and a complex one had to happen. Even then rain teams are still arguably broken in BW. The balance of the weathers would also be better as without rain teams to counter sand would be lused less and sun teams would still be the high risk high reward teams they are now. If rain also got eliminated it would balance some of the current ubers like Manaphy and Tornadus-T andgive them another chance to be in OU.

Just my quick thoughts on a matter that always kind of bothered me.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I always have been bothered that drizzle in BW was never at the very least suspected outside of some the earlier tests. It seemed bad that Drizzle was given a free pass because it allows for a few play styles to exist when in order to keep it a few non complex bans and a complex one had to happen. Even then rain teams are still arguably broken in BW. The balance of the weathers would also be better as without rain teams to counter sand would be lused less and sun teams would still be the high risk high reward teams they are now. If rain also got eliminated it would balance some of the current ubers like Manaphy and Tornadus-T andgive them another chance to be in OU.

Just my quick thoughts on a matter that always kind of bothered me.

Yeah, they pretty much put their foot down on rain after the D+SS ban. It really sucked during the entire generation because rain was clearly still broken/overcentralizing. Playstyles and strategies were suppressed just so you could make sure you weren't bent over by rain, all while worrying about other threats. When people were getting serious about doing something about it (or at least talking about it), it was too late and XY was on its way. I always felt that banning Drizzle/Politoed cleanly was always the better option for a healthier BW. Sun too, for good measure. Tornadus-T definitely was a casualty of it.

 

[Mr.378]

Yeah, what bothered me most about the ban that I didn't really mention before was how we were willing to throw out our standards for not making complex bans just for it, and it didn't even work. It was a hypocritical action that I've never agreed with and it only drove me away from that meta. Sun, as I said could be balanced by how sand teams are just as if not worse of a match up for them than rain is and how they have some of the power that rain has but not the consistency. Alternatively they could be overbearing and need to go too. I'm not too sure on this, but I'd probably be the only additional ban if any that would happen if rain did go.

 

[Sergi]

good discussion and cool thread. in my opinion, i'm not sure if banning weathers (rain and sun) would balance the tier. i'm not an bw expert, but from my little knowledge i think if a weather bans occured the metagame will be dominated by hyper offense and dragmag teams, and things keep in check by the weather wars would dominant the tier (and maybe they could be broken) like terrakion imo. maybe i'm wrong, but just wanted to share my opinion.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Mew barely hits harder than Rhydon at +2, so while theoretically it could sweep I'm not really sure how valid a worry that is. I'm not sure SD Mew is any more threatening than Tobybro, who has the bonus of its boosting move also improving defense on the side and mono-attacks more effectively, leaving room for T-Wave (or Withdraw if you're so inclined).

Mew has Softboiled and zero weaknesses; TobyBro doesn't. At +2 it's not that scary, but there's nothing really stopping it from continuing to boost further since literally nothing 2HKOs Mew and even 3HKOs are scarce. And since nothing can actually tank its +6 attacks...

Maybe still a better "sweeper" than Mewtwo, if by which you mean just boost and start killing shit, but I think of the latter as more super-Alakazam anyway because you're right, there's always something that can tank its attacks. Zam/Chansey can easily tank one shot of anything to inflict PAR and either begin Operation PP Stall or open up the slower, physical threats to take it down; depending on the moveset there are additional mons that can take hits too. But nothing actually beats Mewtwo 1v1 (IIRC not even Mew) and it's hardly worse than Tauros at tearing down a weakened team. I mean hell, +2 Mewtwo Psychic literally OHKOs said Tauros (~55% of the time), Rhydon, does like 80% to Snorlax... you really need Chansey or a Psychic to tank that shit, and every Psychic but Zam (or your own Mew/Mewtwo)(Hypno doesn't count) could get nailed by a coverage move. Mewtwo is super dangerous until you know its moveset, since you either have to play ultra-scared (hope both Chansey and Zam are on your team) or you risk running into an OHKO, which is otherwise unheard of in RBY.

Oh, I'm not saying Mewtwo ain't broken. RBY Mewtwo is godlike power. I'm saying OU + Mewtwo (and Ubers itself) at least has some semblance of a metagame and counterplay (Chansey if it's missing Psychic or Amnesia, Slowbro and sorta Starmie if it's missing Tbolt, your own Mewtwo if it's missing Ice Beam), whereas OU + Mew is a joke because Mew just rends all the OUs (and opposing Mew) asunder.

(In Ubers Mew isn't nearly as bad, because it does have a relatively-reliable check - Mewtwo. Hence why Explosion Mew is actually a thing.)

 

[Perseu]

Like others said, if we followed today's thoughts and OU votings, snorlax would be banned from GSC. I dont know how it would affect the enviroiment, make raikou ou zapdos broken and stuff, but OU council do not think about this anyway. In a immediate action, Lax is overpowered and deserved to be banned.

 

[Alfalfa]

Like others said, if we followed today's thoughts and OU votings, snorlax would be banned from GSC. I dont know how it would affect the enviroiment, make raikou ou zapdos broken and stuff, but OU council do not think about this anyway. In a immediate action, Lax is overpowered and deserved to be banned.

I think the logic behind keeping Snorlax in GSC OU is whether or not you want your games to last a couple hundred turns or not - Snorlax is one of the most offensively capable Pokemon in GSC OU, though I do agree its access to Lovely Kiss is taking its capabilities a little too far.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I think the logic behind keeping Snorlax in GSC OU is whether or not you want your games to last a couple hundred turns or not - Snorlax is one of the most offensively capable Pokemon in GSC OU, though I do agree its access to Lovely Kiss is taking its capabilities a little too far.

Not exactly. DrumLax is certainly very good at offense, but half of battles don't have a DrumLax on either side (its usage is like 30%). CurseLax slows the game down because you pretty much have to use stall tactics like phazing and Growling against it (as opposed to just attacking it), but conversely it's not very good at breaking through those stall tactics (and it's pretty hard to support since almost all its counters resist Explosion and half of them are Toxic-immune). There are plenty of ways to have offense without Snorlax; there's GrowthVap, there's Nidoking and other mixed attackers, there's CurseRoarers and CurseSubRoarers, there's Marowak (with or without AgiPass), and there's just plain old Hidden Power Legends wearing things down (note that Vaporeon, half the mixed attackers, a lot of BPers and HP Legends all have issues getting past RestTalk CurseLax!).

Now, it does happen to be the case that games tend to be stallier in (what I've seen of) the non-Lax meta, but that's more to do with meta shifts (specifically that Raikou, the face of GSC stall, skyrockets in usage) than with Lax actually being the face of offense. And I think that to some extent that's just to do with years of thought not going into "how do I beat Raikou" the way years of thought have gone into "how do I beat CurseLax"; there are specific answers to it (RestTalk Wak, Light Screen Meganium/Blissey...) but people aren't used to thinking that way (see here, where Jorgen builds a non-Lax team and forgets to account for Raikou).

 

[Jorgen]

Nah, games get stallier specifically because once Snorlax is explicitly banned, players use shit like Blissey to counter Raikou instead of more active solutions like Nido/Wak.

Also that team assumes a Lax meta cut me some slack :x

 

[magic9mushroom]

Nah, games get stallier specifically because once Snorlax is explicitly banned, players use shit like Blissey to counter Raikou instead of more active solutions like Nido/Wak.

Also that team assumes a Lax meta cut me some slack :x

I'm cutting you all the slack; I'm using you as an example of a good player who nevertheless failed to account for Raikou when building a team without Lax, to prove how easy it is to forget when you're used to the Lax meta.

And eh, Raikou being a lot more common is relevant. I mean, what people use to counter Raikou is hardly an issue if Raikou isn't around. And its usage does rise dramatically because it's by far the best counter in existence for Hidden Power Zapdos.

Blissey can be a somewhat-active solution to Raikou, if you're setting up Light Screen for a Ground to come in. And at least in a non-Lax meta "Snorlax comes in, your Light Screen is now useless" doesn't bring that idea to a screeching halt (Grounds typically let Vap in, and Vap behind Light Screen is not fun for Electrics, so you still get to use it).

 

[mien]

So now that Jumpman16 is no longer active, can we finally unban DP wynaut?

 

[Lyconik]

I want Excadrill back to BW OU without Sand Rush

The only thing that cost the ban for Excadrill is his ability sand rush that let him outspeed all the metagame. Without that, Excadrill is a good but not broken pokemon who can have a nice place in BW.
There is so little viable pokemon that learn rapid spin, only 4 : Starmie, Forretress, Tentacruel, Donphan.
Starmie is great, can be used on any teams without support. Forretress is really passive, and you don't want him if you are not using stall (bar rare custap berry variant). Tentacruel is amazing under rain, and terrible without. Donphan have a niche on sun team, but that's all.
The point is that you are really restricted when you have to choose a rapid spinner.

Unbanning Excadrill add one more good spinner without shifting too much the metagame (Geodude Tournament unban Excadrill for BW2, and it was a great addition in my opinion), and so open more diversity in teambuilding.

 

[BKC]

drought + chlorophyll & sand stream + sand rush

make it happen!!

 

[Stef0w]

The only real addition/subtraction I can think off in gen 3 would be maybe banning duggy, if only to try and shake things up a bit :/

 

[Isa]

Why "shake things up a bit"? It wouldn't improve the ADV metagame, it wouldn't attract new players and banning Dugtrio would not remove a broken Pokémon from the metagame.

 

[Triangles]

The only real addition/subtraction I can think off in gen 3 would be maybe banning duggy, if only to try and shake things up a bit :/

Duggy is one of the mons that makes ADV such a healthy meta.

 

[Stef0w]

Im not saying duggy is op, broken, or breaks the meta, My mind just kinda slipped, and I forgot this wasnt a theorymon thread :/

Looking back, threats like heracross and tyranitar would prolly be broken without duggy.

EDIT: I meant that without duggy, T-tar, and heracross would rip shit up.

 

[danilo]

dnt think u know what ur talking bout mate
jks ttar br0keñ sâńd sö stræng