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Peeing in the Pool: Water-types in Little Cup

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by v, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. v

    v so tasteless you could mistake me for vater
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    Of all the types in Little Cup, the Water-type is easily the most diverse. Its members have myriad secondary typings and abilities that allow them to shine. Additionally, Water receives perfect neutral coverage in Little Cup when paired with Normal, which is accessible to every Water-type via the TMs Return or Frustration. 102 BP is nothing to scoff at! Water-types are also not weak any form of priority, a great asset in such a speed-oriented metagame. Let’s take a look at some of the star Water-types. Note that I have neglected Rain abusers, as that’s another subject entirely!

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]Mantyke[​IMG]

    name: AgiliTyke
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hydro Pump/Surf
    move 3: Hidden Power [Ground/Flying]
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Life Orb/Oran Berry
    ability: Water Absorb
    nature: Timid/Modest
    evs: 76 HP / 36 Def / 200 SpA / 196 Spe

    Mantyke is one of best and best-known Waters in LC. It is superbly specially bulky, with a phenomenal 120 base Special Defense. Although its Special Attack isn’t exactly “terrifying,” it is a rather respectable 60. The base 20 Attack is totally negligible, obviously. Really the only area Mantyke is lacking in is Speed, which Agility readily rectifies. Hydro Pump is the real star of the set, hitting any Pokemon that isn’t immune to it very hard. Hidden Power Ground allows Mantyke to hit opposing Chinchou and Croagunk hard, while Hidden Power Flying is Mantyke’s only option for secondary STAB, as well as severely denting Fighting-types and Grass-types. Ice Beam is just filler, mainly for Grass-types if you opt to not use HP Flying, as well as Dragon-types.

    Mantyke’s resistance to Priority helps it shine. One of the most effective means of defeating Mantyke is using Porygon with Trace. Porygon can Trace Water Absorb to take a Hydro Pump, and KO back with a powerful Thunderbolt (or Tri Attack if it’s using Specs). Chinchou also presents issues for HP Flying Tyke. Dratini and Misdreavus can revenge-kill a weakened Mantyke, as can Munchlax.

    [​IMG]Chinchou[​IMG]


    name: AgiliChou
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Ground
    item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
    ability: Volt Absorb
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 52 Def / 228 SpA / 228 Spe

    Chinchou can run a very similar set to Mantyke, albeit with a powerful STAB Thunderbolt and a different set of immunities and resistances. Sacrificing the Fighting-resist and Water- and Ground-immunities for an Electric-immune and Flying-resist makes Chinchou a very different Pokemon defensively, and in my opinion an inferior one. While it has markedly higher HP, Chinchou’s other defensive stats are mediocre at best. Its Special Attack is the same but its real selling point is the offensive potency that Thunderbolt and its higher speed add.

    Chinchou unfortunately, like Mantyke, will always be walled by something. More often than not, opposing Chinchou will be the hardest obstacles to overcome. Hidden Power Ground lets you deal with them, yes, but you are then totally walled by Grass-types. Snover in particular can be devastating.


    name: ScarfChou
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power [Ground]
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Volt Absorb
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 52 Def / 228 SpA / 228 Spe

    Of course, if you don’t like taking the time to set up, then this is the set for you! Chinchou’s higher Speed lets it do something that Mantyke simply can’t, and that’s reach a respectable speed with Scarf. It also gets all the coverage it could possibly desire between Water/Electric/Ice/Ground.



    [​IMG]Krabby[​IMG]

    name: Double Dance Krabby
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Crabhammer
    move 4: Return
    item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
    ability: Shell Armor
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe

    Krabby has a great defensive typing in mono water, perfect neutral coverage in two moves, and good physical bulk. It recently got Agility, which made it a great deal more viable than it once had been. Rather than putting in a generic filler move into the last slot, however, the standard is to put Swords Dance. With some screen support, this allows Krabby to make itself nearly unstoppable. You should always Agility first, because even without a Swords Dance 22 Attack is going to denting everything. If at any point your opponent affords you a second free turn, Swords Dance up and proceed to sweep their team.


    [​IMG]Buizel[​IMG]

    name: BUizel
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Waterfall/Aqua Jet
    move 3: Return
    move 4: Aqua Jet/Quick Attack
    item: Life Orb/Oran Berry
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

    Buizel has a superb stat spread and is another option for a strong physically-oriented Water. Thanks to its good attack and speed, it can opt to either begin outright attacking or decide to stat-up against a switch-in. Thanks to the unresisted coverage offered in Water/Normal, Buizel can use a Priority move to easily pick off Scarfed Pokemon. Waterfall hitting Gligar super-effectively is one of the biggest reasons to use Physical Waters, and Buizel getting perfect accuracy in the form of Waterfall while only compromising a bit of power and gaining speed makes it arguably a better choice than Krabby. Unresisted Priority isn’t too shabby, either.


    [​IMG]Poliwag[​IMG]

    name: Bellywag
    move 1: Belly Drum
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Return
    move 4: Encore/Hypnosis
    item: Oran Berry
    ability: Water Absorb
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 116 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe

    I wrote a thread on this set already, located here.

    [​IMG]Totodile[​IMG]

    name: SDile
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Aqua Jet
    move 3: Return
    move 4: Swords Dance/Dragon Dance
    item: Oran Berry
    ability: Torrent
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 236 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    Totodile gets Aqua Jet now, which makes it a wonderful set-up sweeper. It could go for Endure/Flail/Salac but that’s not as reliable. Toto is far from slow, but not extremely fast. After a Swords Dance its Aqua Jet will be about as powerful as a Waterfall so unless you’re Croagunk or Mantyke, you won’t enjoy taking it. Return gets the coveted perfect neutral coverage. If you’re concerned about speed, then just run Dragon Dance instead. Keep in mind that Dragon Dance and Aqua Jet is illegal, so don't use it.

    [​IMG]Barboach[​IMG]

    name: DDBoach
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Return
    item: Oran Berry/Life Orb
    ability: Anticipation
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 36 HP / 212 Atk / 12 Def / 28 SpD / 196 Spe

    Barboach is an interesting Pokemon. It has access to Dragon Dance and STAB on two of the best attacking types in the game as well as one hell of a defensive typing and a good spread of base stat endings. However, its stats themselves are rather underwhelming and it can’t hit Mantyke with its STAB combination. As much as I would love to slap on Spark and call it a day, Spark+DD is illegal. Use as you will.

    [​IMG]Carvanha[​IMG]

    name: SubVahna
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Aqua Jet
    move 3: Crunch
    move 4: Zen Headbutt
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Rough Skin
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

    Yes, I know that this is the third time I’ve mentioned this set in a LC thread. I don’t think I need to mention what it does again, just check it out here and here!


    [​IMG]Squirtle[​IMG]

    name: Spinner
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Aqua Jet
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Return/Zen Headbutt
    item: Oran Berry
    ability: Torrent
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 212 Atk / 156 Def / 84 SDef

    Squirtle is, in my opinion, the best spinner in the metagame. He took a huge hit with Misdreavus running WoW more often, but he’s still damn good. He can kill Croagunk and Gastly with Zen Headbutt if you choose to, but Water/Normal coverage is generally better. Aqua Jet lets you finish off a weakened opponent, while Waterfall is just generic STAB. You could choose to use Fake Out somewhere, perhaps over Waterfall, to let Squirtle force some more switches. It’s a surprisingly bulky turtle with good typing and an interesting niche.


    [​IMG]Kabuto[​IMG]

    name: LeadButo
    move 1: Rock Slide / Earth Power
    move 2: Aqua Jet
    move 3: Stealth Rock
    move 4: Waterfall/Rapid Spin
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Battle Armor
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 200 Atk / 40 Def / 200 Spe

    Kabuto is arguably the most reliable Stealth Rock lead. Resisting Fake Out and being immune to Critical Hits let it set up SR almost 100% of the time, barring the rare Croagunk lead. Aqua Jet is very powerful, and Waterfall doubly so. Rock Slide hits stuff Waterfall can’t, while Earth Power lets Buto beat Gunk switch-ins.

    [​IMG]Omanyte[​IMG]

    name: LeadNyte
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Hidden Power [Rock/Fire]/Ice Beam
    item: Oran Berry/Focus Sash
    ability: Shell Armor
    nature: Modest/Timid
    evs: 76 HP / 36 SpA / 156 SpD / 236 Spe

    Omanyte can serve the same purpose as her brother, but as a Spike-setter rather than a SR-user. In terms of SR, Nyte is outclassed by Buto, but it is the bar-none best Spiker in LC. Resistance to Fake Out makes it a good lead for the same reason Kabuto is. It is guaranteed one layer of Spikes barring a lucky Meowth Hypnosis and can fairly easily set up two. Occasionally, against certain leads, three layers right off the bat is feasible. Omanyte is also extremely powerful even outside of Rain with STAB Surf. Earth Power lets it hit Gunk, but unlike Kabuto it loses to attacking power to accomplish this. Hidden Power Rock gets STAB and hits Snover, while HP Fire and Ice Beam can hit Grasses.

    [​IMG]Staryu[​IMG]

    name: LO(ve)Yu
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power [Ground/Fire]/Recover
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 196 SpA / 236 Spe

    Staryu can be a force to be reckoned with in the right hands. With 19 Speed and 17 Special Attack, nothing this side of Munchlax is going to want to take a hit from this behemoth. Factor in STAB Hydro Pump, BoltBeam and access to a Hidden Power of your choice and you have a truly fearsome sweeper on your hands. If you opt to not use Hidden Power Ground of Grass, you are Chinchou weak and should immediately run for fear of TBolt.
  2. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
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    Nice thread Vader. It's very pretty.

    As it can be seen the competition between Water-types is very intense in Little Cup. You, for the most part, need some sort of niche as a Water-type or else you will get little to no use. Chinchou has STAB Thunderbolt, Mantyke is part Flying, Krabby has a huge attack, whatever. You don't see any plain Water-types with no niches, like Mudkip, out there on the battlefield. It can also be seen that all of the Water-types listed except Squirtle, Staryu or Carvanha have some way of boosting their Speed (or in Poliwag's case, being passed Speed.) This sort of gives of an idea that Water-types are the "speed demons" of Little Cup, like Agilityke and Swift Swim Omanyte. Kinda interesting how some types fill out differnet roles in different tiers.

    I feel like there are two Water-types missing from this list, though. First is Remoraid. Remoraid has two amazing sets, one on the physical side, and one on the special side. Physically, Remoraid has a powerful, yet somewhat risky, Hustle set. With moves like Waterfall, Return, Seed Bomb and Rock Blast, Remoraid can inflict some devestating damage. With a Choice Band and Adamant nature, Remoraid reaches an astounding 38 Attack. Scarf works great to boost Remoraids middling Speed, as well. On the special side, Remoraid has a powerful Scarf Water Spout set. With moves like Fire Blast, Hidden Power Grass and Surf too, it can inflict a ton of pain. It is, however, very priority weak, which is Remoraid's main problem.

    The other Pokemon is Wingull. While Wingull may not have two great abilities or great Special Defense like Mantyke, it does reach 19 Speed and HP, and has more usable Flying STAB. Hidden Power Grass and Shock Wave (used only to hit Mantyke), it can do a nice chunk of damage. It can also boosts its Speed with Agility, and has Quick Attack for priority. Wingull does lack a good Water STAB though, which can be a problem, though.
  3. Towelie

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    Very nice thread. I really agree about all the diversity of water types in the little cup metagame. The two most dominating imo are AgiliTyke and SubVanha. Once Mantyke get's down an agility, only Munchlax, priority, and scarf elekid (lol) can get by it. Subvanha, on the other hand is immensely powerful, and can set up a substitute either by a wynaut encore, or using one of its resistances.
    Maybe the popularity in water types promotes the use of Croagunk more?
    Overall, nice thread Vader.
  4. matty

    matty I did stuff a long time ago for the site
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    You forgot Wailmer which makes me a sad panda :(

    The Scarf Wailmer set is amazing once you remove Croagunk or Tyke with say Wynaunt. Then the thing goes to town and rips your team apart.
  5. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    On a related note, Wailmer makes a good Croagunk and Mantyke lure on the very same basis. If you have a team that is stupidly weak to Mantyke, or really bothered by Croagunk, run something like Wise Glasses Wailmer lead with Water Spout / HP Ground / Ice Beam / Selfdestruct. More often than not, the opponent will switch in their Gunk or Tyke. You can then explode on Tyke (or run HP Electric) as it tries to Agility up, or HP Ground (or flying or psychic) croagunk. Shame you can't deal with both without blowing up on Tyke though :(
  6. sbc

    sbc

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    Buizel is my guy...think you're untouchable with an Agility, Gligar? Aqua Jet fool! And people underestimate the power of the guy. After one bulk up, Croagunk is getting OHKO'd by a LO Return and various grass-types take craploads from it. Also an impromtu Rain Dance counter with water/ice resist and Swift Swim of its own.
  7. WECAMEASROMANS

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    Agreed, there are many threatening water types out there in LC. However, you can't just pick all of them and put them on your team. Each water pokemon has their own special niche that makes them shine out of all the rest. This includes movepool, secondary typing, stats, etc. Out of personal experience, I would have to say Krabby is the most threatening. It's power is unreal, and can rip holes in any team.

    Also, nice thread explaining the dominance of water types in LC! This would be a very good thread for any new players out there who want to try LC for a while instead of the typical OU.
  8. HATrick

    HATrick

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    Very informative, but there is a lack of Wailmer =O
  9. mudkipmaster

    mudkipmaster

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    Yes, I agree Wailmer is also useful in LC.
  10. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Remoraid > Wailmer. Remoraid's offensive stats are ridiculous even with mixed (19 Atk 16 SpA anyone?). On top of this, Remoraid has Seed Bomb and Flamethrower / Fire Blast.
  11. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Wailmer has a ton of bulk (29/10/10 min against 20/10/10, and Wail can get more extra points once you max two stats) over Remoraid as well as Selfdistruct. Sure Remoraid is stiff competition, but Wailmer is far from outclassed.
  12. HATrick

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    Wailmer is not outclassed by Remoraid, and eric pretty much got the reasons. It also has Water Veil, allowing it to come in on Misdreavus's WoW, and hit with Water Spout/Surf.
  13. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Water Veil is pretty minor really, I'd take Sniper or Hustle over it any day. Missy's WoW is not the most predictable move normally and you're not going to do much with WS after a Missy Shadow Ball. The bulk is the big thing, as a demonstration 116 HP Wailmer (196(SpA)+196(Spe)+116(HP)=508) takes only 80.6% - 100% from Adamant Cranidos Stone Edge, one of the strongest unboosted attacks you will encounter in LC. That's comparable to offensive Munchlax, and Wailmer has a 150 BP STAB move before it gets hurt.
  14. tennisace

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    Did somebody forget about Slowpoke? It also has access to Fire Blast/Flamethrower, in addition to Calm Mind, Slack Off, Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Magic Coat, Curse, Belly Drum, Trick, Yawn, and Amnesia. It has better physical defense than Wynaut, with about equivalent special defense. 90/65/40 is nothing to scoff at. The only problem is that unfortunate Psychic secondary type, but hey I'd gladly trade a small weakness to Houndour/Misdreavus for the ability to wall Mankey/Machop/Crogunk.
  15. v

    v so tasteless you could mistake me for vater
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    I used Remoraid a lot in the past. Hustle makes it so unreliable that you just want to stop playing. Sure, the power boost is nice...but it just isn't worth the accuracy drop. 20% miss chance on Waterfall and Return is abysmal, especially when Krabby can reach similar attack while having 100 accuracy on Return and 85 on Crabhammer, which also gets a power boost over Waterfall. I've never used Wailmer because I've always thought of it as Croagunk bait, just as Cyndaquil is Houndour bait. I also recall Munchlax giving it a fair bit of trouble, but I'm not 100% sure on that. As for Slowpoke, Carvanha kills it in one strok with Crunch and Abra with Signal Beam, not to mention Gligar and Mankey's U-Turns. However, with Misdreavus gone, many players believe that Machop usage will be on the ris again, and Slowpoke is bar-none the best counter to Machop. So, maybe it will see some use after all.
  16. Universal Berry

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    I'm sad nobody mentioned Surskit. Sure, it may come down of the barrel when it comes to water types (well maybe Lotad is worst) but a base 50 Sp atk is OK considering a powerful 120 power hydro pump and resistance to common priorities ( aqua jet and vacuum wave ).
    Also, it can use a Baton Passing set effectively.
  17. Pika25

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    You're right; Wingull cannot use HM3 Surf. If I do suggest a Water move for Wingull, I'm afraid it would have to be the 60BP water pulse... And Gull doesn't even have Tech.

    As for Water Absorbers, I would add Wooper to the list. Water/Ground typing means weak to only Grass (albeit quad-weak, which means run from Snover) as well as STAB on two of the best attack types. Not-too-impressive base stats (55/45/45/25/25/15) though. It can use Curse, and HGSS added Recover to the movepool as well. Something like:

    Wooper @Oran/LO/Lefties
    EV: 156 HP 156 Attack 76 Defense 116 Sp Def
    Nature: Brave (+Attack -Speed)
    0 Spe IV
    Ability: Water Absorb
    Move: Curse
    Move: Recover/Icepunch/Earthquake
    Move: Return/Earthquake
    Move: Waterfall

    The double-STAB EQ/Waterfall is explained as with Barboach. Icepunch is chosen only for its Grass/Dragon coverage. The EV's I chose give Wooper some bulk, as well as almost max out Attack. The choice is three attacks with Oran (or even Lefties if so desired) or Recover with LO. Wooper is slow as heck (only Munchlax is slower) and Curse only lowers that. Of course Curse Munchlax beats this set in (about) every respect.
  18. Bologo

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    Brine is better if you don't care about the 20% confusion chance. It has 5 more base power, and doubles to 130 base power if the opponent has <50% health, and Wingull is actually fast enough to make use of it too.

    EDIT:

    Also, I don't understand this spread

    Shouldn't the correct EVs be 52 Def / 228 SpA / 228 Spe? 200 SpA isn't reaching the 3rd stat point while 228 SpA is. And 52 Def EVs reaches the first stat point for Defense and makes 508 EVs. Also, if HP Ground is used, take out the extra 8 EVs from Speed (it only needs 220 to get that 3rd stat point), and put 4 in SpA and SpD to correct any IV changes from HP Ground.
  19. Pika25

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    You're right. I forgot about Brine on Wingull.
  20. Bologo

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    Surskit actually isn't that bad. He's one of the few Swift Swimmers that can easily beat Croagunk using Psybeam with a 4x effective hit. And like you said, he resists many priority moves, including Aqua Jet, Vaccum Wave, Ice Shard (from Snover/Swinub), and even Bullet Punch (from Croagunk/Machop).

    The only other Rain sweeper who doesn't really seem to have much trouble with Croagunk is Mantyke, who can hit it with a super effective HP Flying/Air Cutter, and unlike Earth Power Omanyte, it doesn't get killed by Vaccum Wave.

    I haven't tried a BP Surskit though, though it may way work quite well since it'll be hard to interrupt its pass after it gets an Agility due to resisting so much priority.
  21. v

    v so tasteless you could mistake me for vater
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    Honestly, Surskit isn't anything special. In terms of Rain sweeping, the only thing separating it from Mantyke is STAB Signal Beam, which doesn't exactly strike fear into the hearts of opponents. For Baton Passing, I don't see any reason to run it over Venonat, who has a 97.5 or something similar accurate Sleep Powder to let it Agility. Buizel, Chinchou and Mantyke all do better for Agility sweeping. Defensively, I fail to see what advantage Surskit has over Mantyke, and that goes doubly for offensively. I suppose it can hit Snover with Signal Beam, but Mantyke can do the same with Flying STAB and better defensive typing.

    In short, I don't see any real reason to use Surskit over its superior counterparts.
  22. Banryu

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    What about SD-SubDile with Flail and Salac or Liechi or something? I know that Endure-Flail-Salac wouldn't be that effective but I saw this ^ mentioned somewhere and thought it was a pretty good idea.

    Also, I'm curious to see what kind of stuff Wingull can bring to the table. I thought a Specs set on him might be kind of interesting.
  23. Alchemator

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    I think Brine/Air Slash/HP Electric/U-turn would do quite well, though I haven't tested it yet.
  24. stickid

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    Yeah, that works well. This set would be really effective with an Expert Belt, since Wingull is fast enough to pick off weaker pokes without the need of a Scarf.

    But, no mention of Goldeen? It is actually one of the best physical Rain Dance sweepers on the Little Cup ladder.

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