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Phazing is hazardous. Am I right?

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Haruno, Oct 18, 2012.

  1. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Well I recently tried a stall team in OU and needless to say it didn't work out very well. So instead I've set my goals lower and decided on making a hazardous team in ubers. I've always been a fan of arceus so it was decided before hand that it would be my spinblocker of choice. The main purpose of the team is to set up as many hazards as possible then wall/stall/phaze my opponent to hell.

    Changes will be marked in red

    Now that you know how the team works, it's time to take a look:

    At A Glance​


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    In-Depth Analysis:


    [​IMG]
    Arceus @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Judgment
    - Flamethrower
    - Recover
    - Will o Wisp​


    This is a bulkier version of the support ghost set and the main defense again spinners/opposing spin blockers while also having the bulk to tank a few hits. Notably getting 3hko'd by kyurem-b at the worst assuming will o wisp doesn't miss and 2-3hko'd by kyurem-w. Now one might argue that gira is a better spinblocker and that might be true but arceus has a few distinct advantages over gira which is why I'm using this.

    For one it has superior offense and the movepool needed to defeat opposing spinners or spinblockers. Secondly it has a more reliable form of recovery in the form of recover. Although the lack of lefties might hurt it a bit Arceus ultimately has more staying power than gira.

    Now for the actual moveset. Judgment is used to hit mewtwo's/opposing spinblockers that my team can't really dent without hazards. Flamethrower is for hitting excadrill/forretress. Recover is to just stall while toxic/burns chip away at my opponent and will o wisp is there to cripple physical attackers.

    [​IMG]
    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 200 Hp / 200 Atk / 108 Def
    30 speed iv's
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Thunder Wave
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Tail​


    Typical Groudon. I usually lead with this just to setup rocks. The 30 iv's are for the occasional ty-tar/kyogre lead and ensuring I win the weather war. Losing the speed tie with dialga hurts abit but it doesn't make much of a difference overall. Lum berry is to counter darkrai leads which I then proceed to t-wave/dragon tail then rocks.

    Groudon is really just a suicide lead since after it sets up rocks I don't mind sacking it but with eq and dragon tail I hope to get some damage in first. In the off chance I see a zekrom I tend to just setup rocks with groudon and switchout so groudon can counter zekrom later. Overall it's mainly just used as a setup lead and possibly crippling a mon or two with twave and screwing with the weather since thunder's accuracy goes down the drain and kyogre's beastly stabs don't hurt as much but more on that later.

    [​IMG]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 156 SpD / 4 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Whirlwind
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Toxic​


    You don't see Skarmory much in Ubers these days but it surprisingly has quite a useful niche in Ubers. Base 140 Defense / 70 Special Defense and 65 HP looks measly compared to Lugia's titanic 106 / 130 / 154 or Giratina's champion 150 / 120 / 120 defenses. However, pure stats alone can be deceiving, Skarmory's trump card is its fantastic typing for physical walling and access to Spikes. It also forms the first part of my defensive trio.

    Skarmory will wall the hell out of any and all forms of extreme killer arceus while setting up the essential hazards needed for my team to sweep. It can tank pretty much any type of physical attack that comes it's way that isn't from zekrom. Ultimately skarmory's main purpose is to set up hazards while prepping for a sweep late game.

    As for its moves. Spikes lets it setup the essential hazards for my team to toxic spikes. Roost is to heal off any damage it might receive and it helps to put it back in the threshold for sturdy to activate. Toxic is to poison those few stray fliers/levitaters that are immune to toxic spikes and whirlwind is to stop skarmory from just being setup bait.

    The def ev's invested in skarmory are to avoid getting 2hko'd by kyurem-b and support groudon's fire punch. The SpD ev's help skarmory survive a little longer against special attacks since it's pretty frail in that department. HP is just for lasting power.

    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Protect​


    Now you might be thinking why tentacruel as a toxic spike/spinner as opposed to forretress which functions similarly. The answer is quite simple. Tentacruel walls the omnipresent kyogre. With it's def and hp it has the power to avoid getting 2hko'd by a non spec'd kyogre's thunder. Which is simply insane and it tanks kyogre's water spouts like nothing with its 12% recovery every turn and access to protect. It also walls the vast majority of special attackers not named mewtwo or kyurem-w with ease while setting up hazards of its own. Being able to absorb toxic spikes upon entry is just icing on the cake. This makes tenta the 2nd part of my defensive core.

    The moves should be pretty self explanatory in that tenta sets up toxic spikes while walling special attackers. Spinning away opposing hazards if necessary. Protect is for extra healing/toxic/burn stall if needed. Scald is to get a potential burn on physical sweepers that might decimate tentacruel otherwise.

    [​IMG]
    Palkia @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 156 SAtk / 252 Spd / 100 Atk
    Hasty Nature
    - Spacial Rend
    - Thunder
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch​


    Now I know what you're thinking. Sub punch? On palkia? Isn't that a bad idea? Wynaut just run scarf and 4 coverage moves? The answer is pretty simple. Palkia acts as the wall breaker/scout for the few weaknesses my team might have. It also acts as another essential kyogre counter since the goal with palkia is to sub on choice kyogre being locked into it's water moves and then use the appropriate coverage move after that. It also acts as an extreme killer....... killer. In the sense that most people that use sd extreme killer knows that scarfed palkia's draco meteor will only do around 50-60% which will ensure it doesn't 3hko but instead I just punch through and getting rid of extreme killer. Considering how gimmicky and unused this set is it has the surprise factor that's needed.

    Palkia's ev's are set so that focus punch can get a little bit more damage in. Enough to ohko extreme killer/kyurem after hazard damage while the rest are dumped into SpA and speed to get rid of the threats that focus punch isn't needed for.

    [​IMG]
    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 248 Hp / 20 Def / 240 Speed
    Jolly Nature

    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Whirlwind
    - Dragon Tail​


    Ah the final part of my three part defensive core and the glue that sticks my whole team together. Anyone that faces lugia will know that it can tank hits like a champ thanks to stellar defenses and multiscale and it's the final poke that comes out once all hazards are in place, spinners are dead, moldbreaker/terravolt/turboblaze users are dead.

    Now the first thing you might notice is the moveset. Why run resttalk lugia over toxic/whirlwind/roost/ice beam? The answer is simple. To phaze/stall them to hell. Lugia's multiscale will allow it to tank any attack in the uber tier while taking little to no injuries. However this lugia has a slightly different purpose than all the other great walls out there. It's whole purpose is to single handedly rack up hazard damage on an opponent.

    For the moves itself. Recover/roost is very unreliable since with rocks up and a powerful sweeper lugia will get chipped to death. Rest remedies this since it instantly brings lugia back to full health whether it be rain, shine, snow or sand it will have it's precious multiscale intact since weather damage occurs before leftover healing. Sleep talk is a must in order to make lugia not be a sitting duck er...... bird when it's taking a little snooze. Having Dragon tail and whirlwind might seem a little redundant but I assure you it's not since sleep talk giving lugia a 66% of phasing an opponent as opposed to 33% with rest/toxic/whirlwind which is amazing. Once the 3 turns of sleep are up just rinse repeat until the enemy is dead. I've been in multiple battles where my opponent was leading badly and lugia just walled him so much that they forfeited out of sheer annoyance. Also because lugia is asleep it doesn't get the negative priority that my other phazers have when using sleep talk which helps a tiny bit in allowing lugia to sweep.

    Conclusion​


    I hope you all managed to live through reading this long wall of text and hopefully fix the holes in my team. Genearlly I'm seeing sucess so far but you never know.

    As always, rate, hate, and steal please!
  2. lousy918

    lousy918

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    Ok I've gotta go soon so here's a really quick rate (I'll add on tmr):

    Giratina ResttalkShuffler strictly outclasses Lugia due to spinblocking ability, as one can just spin against Lugia, rendering your phazing useless.

    Change Tentacruel's EV spread to 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef as Giratina-O's Outrage hits harder than EQ and you're not gonna survive it without wasting EVs, so just maximise special bulk.

    Also if possible please include an importable.
  3. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
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    Hey thanks for the rate. About giratina being a spinblocker. While yes that is true it possesses much less longevity than Lugia since unlike lugia it has a dragon/ice weakness which makes it die before it gets the chance to rest again and I'm also under the assumption that my opponent will have brought out their spinner earlier in the match to try to dispose of hazards.

    Giratina-o? Mmm I won't deny that It would lay a big dent in tenta but it does narrowly avoid getting a ohko on tenta. However This is why I have arceus since arceus can take any attack gira can throw at it and just recover the damage while being able to 2hko with judgment.

    I'll make an importable when I get access to a comp since it has the other options I used before posting this rmt.
  4. Gates

    Gates

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    I think Resttalk Lugia can work on this team but you need to change your EV spread. The main advantage of running Resttalk phazing Lugia is that he's so fast that Sleep Talk will choose a Phasing move for you usually before the opponent can move. If you don't have him on the team to do that then you may as well just run Giratina like lousy said. I recommend the spread of 252 HP/16 Def/240 Spe Jolly since it allows it to outspeed Terrakion.

    Is there any reason why you're running the spread/nature/item that you are on Groudon over the usual 252 HP/252 Def Impish build with Leftovers? You cite Darkrai as a problem, but you have Lugia to take the Dark Void and Skarmory to switch to after that to take whatever special attacks they have. I'd honestly worry more about people leading with Scarf Darkrai since your entire team is extremely vulnerable to Trick. With a bulkier spread on Groudon you'd be able to check a lot of physical threats in the tier even more effectively.

    As lousy said, Giratina as a spinblocker would be extremely good for this team, probably more reliable than Arceus. Another thing that would be really good is Resttalk Bulk Up Dialga with Dragon Tail. I'd also consider putting Forretress in over your current hazard users since it'll free up another slot for a resttalk phazer, which are really good in teams like this.

    Summary of changes:
    - 252 HP/16 Def/240 Spe Jolly on Lugia
    - 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def Impish with Leftovers on Groudon
    - Giratina > Arceus
    - Forretress > Tentacruel
    - Dialga > Skarmory


    Sets (open)
    Giratina @ Leftovers
    248 HP/252 Def/8 SpD
    Impish
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest
    - Roar
    - Sleep Talk

    Dialga @ Leftovers
    252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    Careful
    - Bulk Up
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    Calm
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Volt Switch/Pain Split
  5. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
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    Just tried it your suggestion for lugia and I have to say I'm loving how it works. I thought it'd be much slower due to all the scarfs and base 120+ but it still seems to be working out great. Thanks.

    As for groudon like I said it's a suicide lead. If I see a darkrai like almost everyone else I will assume a dark void is coming and I proceed to t-wave then setup rocks. Though in the case you mentioned with trick darkrai I'll admit it'll be pretty problematic and unexpected but at worse I'll just lose groudon and still have rocks which is just fine in my books. The extra attack ev's are to ohko paralyzed dialga leads with eq though the fast dialgas are pretty eh but they're few and far in between.

    I'll try gira out but like I said I prefer arceus due to the fact that it can handle a few of my team's counters namely kyurem-w which giratina gets massacred against. I tried forretress but it doesn't have the special bulk to switch into kyogre which is usually when I switch tenta in to setup. Dialga can't setup spikes though while skarmory can and forretress won't last 5+ turns to setup toxic/spikes.
  6. lousy918

    lousy918

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    I'm making a new post because nobody ever notices edits for some reason.

    Even if you're using 30 IVs in speed on Groudon, T-tar is still way slower, so it's gonna set up sand. Kyogre won't however, unless it's holding Iron Ball or something.

    Also you may want to consider Latias > Palkia since Palkia doesn't get any recovery (you didn't give it lefties so Subbing is a permanant loss of hp) while Latias gets Levitate for Spikes and Toxic Spikes immunity.
  7. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
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    Hmm that's true but the IVs does get it a slightly better chance against Kyogre which is a boon. I've been considering replacing Palkia to remedy my incredible weakness to Kyurem-W. Is there a mon that can safely revenge Kyurem-W / Kyogre? I'm trying to make this a semi-decent uber team since this is probably my first serious team that I've used so help please.
  8. polop

    polop
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    Support Ghost Arceus / Support Groudon w/t a twist / Standard Skarm / Standard Cruel / Expert Belt Kia / Rest Shuffler Lugia

    This team is weak in order of importance to:

    Dragon Dance Rayquaza: It can easily get a Dragon Dance of in front of Tentacruel or Skarmory and threaten to sweep the team whole from there with Outrage and Fire Blast. Your Lugia variant can't stop it due to the fact its going to force its self to sleep to recover from the blow and Dragon Tail does pitiful damage, meaning it can just come in again when it has Rested and start Outraging again.

    Kyurem-W: Lack of a Steel-type with a lot of Special Defense or speed EVs on Arceus actually let it outspeed and 2HKO everything.

    Blaziken: Swords Dance boosted Flare Blitz OHKOes everything (including Tentacruel, Lugia is screwed if rocks are up), you'll have to fodder stuff to make it suicide to recoil.

    Mewtwo: Lack of a revenge killer means it can set up a Calm Mind and from there everything barring Ghost Arceus (Ghost Arceus barely shoves a +1 Sun-boosted Fire Blast off) is OHKOed if Stealth Rock is up.

    Ho-oh: The only thing that threatens it is Palkia, whose only method of hurting it is Spacial Rend (which will be stalled out) and Thunder (which has 50% accuracy in the sun).

    Others have suggested Giratina-a for your team, but its real problem lies in the lack of a revenge-killer.

    Calm Mind Ghost Arceus: If you haven't got two layers of Toxic Spikes and it comes in on Tentacruel with Skarmory's Sturdy broken, your getting swept.

    To alleviate issues with Mewtwo, Kyurem-W, and Dragon Dance Rayquaza, I suggest using Choice Scarf Palkia over your current Sub Punch version.

    Palkia:
    Show Hide

    move 1: Spacial Rend / Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Thunder
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Hasty
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe

    I'm aware you already posted that you dislike running scarfkia over sub punch kia.
    Although for a more defensively-oriented stall team and not offensive team where sweeping isn't your primary concern. I feel Scarf Kia is a better bet solely for the utility of keeping the ability to switch into Specs Kyogre while being able to revenge Mewtwo, DD Quaza, Kyurem-W, the Lati twins, and Darkrai. Alternatively, you could use Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Genesect but using those mons would just involve making even more changes seeing as you'd need to add a Specs Ogre switch-in x_x.

    I second the removal of Ghost Arceus for a Giratina-a. Adding a Giratina-a allows you to keep the ability to spin block while keeping a solid switch into Ho-oh and Blaziken. It also can tank a hit from Mewtwo and phaze it out should you find yourself in a scary situation.

    Giratina-a:
    Show Hide

    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Dragon Tail / Roar / Will-O-Wisp
    move 4: Dragon Tail / Roar / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Hasty
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe


    With that taken care of we move on to the remaining threats leftover; Kyurem-W is still problematic since you lack a switch-in to it and Ghost Arceus still can set up Calm Minds to sweep later on. To salvage this I reccomend combining Skarmory and Tentacruel's job into a Forretress and adding a Ho-oh or Steel Arceus in place. Using Gates's Forry works.

    Ho-oh will fail at its job if Stealth Rocks are up while Steel Arceus will succumb to sun-boosted Fusion Flares but conveniently notice how Palkia can switch in to that should it be used. Both additionally also manage to resupply the offensive presence that was lost when you made Palkia run Choice Scarf. Here are the Arceus-Steel and Ho-oh sets.
    Show Hide

    Arceus-Steel
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Roar / Will-O-Wisp
    move 4: Judgment
    item: Iron Plate
    ability: Multitype
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spe

    Ho-oh
    move 1: Sacred Fire
    move 2: Brave Bird
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Substitute / Whirlwind
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Careful
    evs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spe

    I do encourage a switch to Reflect or Sub Roost Lugia, but if you wanna use Rest Talk its also fine, switching the variants does nothing really but give you a more reliable Rayquaza counter, but Scarf Kia exists now...

    Hope I managed to help and good luck on the team :P.

    On a completely random side note, I thank Poppy for rating structure.
  9. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
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    Would a scarfed chomp be able to make up for a scarfed palkia?

    Chomp @ choice scarf
    Jolly Nature
    4 hp/ 252 Atk / 252 Speed
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Claw
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake

    it can survive a +1 extreme speed from ray, can safely revenge everything on the list save ghostceus. Though it can't switch into the kyurem forms it can safely outspeed and ohko with stone edge with rocks up.


    Still can't use forretress for some reason. It doesn't seem to last the 5+ turns needed to spin/setup hazards from what I've seen. What are the common pokes that he can setup on?

    Sorry if I'm being hard to follow. I'm just wondering a few things though gira-a does seem to lack the power to stop spinners.
  10. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Past SPL Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion
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    I know SpikeStacking strategies are good in Uber but your team terribly need a Winning Condition.
    Any pokemon designed to be a last man standing has a great chance to 6-0 you without effort, and I think about any kind of setup-Refresh Arceus (Dark, Water, whatever you want). You will also have great trouble against some Taunter like Gliscor. I guess you could use Arceus-Ghost as a Calm Minder or a different kind of Palkia (like Lustrous Orb).

    I'm sure some people will find better replacement but I wanted to point out the lack of winning condition, which often happens when you build a team around abusing statuts/hazards damages.
  11. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
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    The only thing that truly worries me in that scenario is something that isn't poisoned. You make it sound like I have no way of winning once I get my opponent to their last mon o_O. I'm using garchomp instead of palkia at the moment and it's working just fine. The point of this team is to make sure that whatever last poke remains will be near dead or under a hp dropping status condition.
  12. polop

    polop
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    You loose your Specs Ogre switch-in though so I'm skeptical about how successful it is / will be.
    Forry can setup on Giratina-a, Choiced Dragons (beware of specs dracos and Fire Blasts though), Deo-a lacking HP Fire, giratina-o lacking HP Fire (it is setup bait for those with Sub though), Lugia, Arceus-Grass, and probably a whole lot more that I'm not thinking of right now.

    Giratina-a can't stop spinners per se (it CAN force them out and hit them with a lot of damage from spikes and rocks though) but it does provide a very useful backbone for a stall team, seeing as it completely counters Blaziken and Ho-oh.

    McMeghan he can use Scarf Kia to clean up lategame when the opposition has weakened if necessary. I think that counts as a win condition. Although I will admit I don't know how to walk around the CM Dark Arceus weakness present at the moment though x_x. The only thing I CAN SEE working as a decent late game cleaner aside that is CM Lugia but I think haruno likes using Rest Talk shuffler :P.
  13. gookie

    gookie Administrator
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    Hey, this is a cool team with a very solid defensive core. However, while SpeedShuffling Lugia is very cool in theory, its defenses take a heavy blow when using such speed, moreover, Multiscale is not reliable, considering the difficulty of spinning and the prevalence of setting Stealth Rock in this metagame. As others have pointed out before this Lugia suffers by relying on having Multiscale active or a lucky Sleep Talk for checking top tier threats such as Rayquaza and RP Groudon. The standard Substitute Lugia would suit your team far better. Although the lack of Ice Beam might seem to be a concern, Lugia's additional defense investment means it can check Rayquaza time and time again, and it should only need to do so twice at most, provided Stealth Rock is down.

    Lugia
    Show Hide

    move 1: Dragon Tail / Whirlwind
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Substitute
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD


    Groudon doesn't need to be so offensively inclined; Lugia's notable weakness to a physical attacker is Zekrom, one that Groudon should be fully dedicated to checking. Moreover, Thunder Wave interferes with Toxic Spikes that Tentacruel may lay down, and makes Groudon set up bait for Forretress and Ferrothorn. I suggest changing your spread to fully physically defensive, and using Flamethrower or Fire Blast.

    Groudon
    Show Hide

    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Stealth Rock
    move 4: Dragon Tail
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Drought
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def


    Skarmory should carry Taunt over Toxic. While Toxic is certainly useful on Skarmory for catching Ho-Oh switch-ins and CM Arceus, Skarmory's access to Taunt and the presence of Toxic Spikes (for CM Arceus) lower its utility; whereas, Taunt prevents Ferrothorn from being a bitch with Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, and hazards. Also, Tentacruel should carry Toxic over Protect. While it has Toxic Spikes, CM Ghost Arceus often switches into Tentacruel as it lays them, not to mention Protect is largely useless on a sun team with such a strong defensive core, not being able to take advantage of Rain Dish is also a bummer.

    This is the biggest change I am going to suggest, while Palkia's 'stallbreaking' capabilities are very cool it is out of place on this team as it lacks any sort of recovery and is your primary Kyogre check, a duty that is not to be taken lightly. Additionally, it does not help cover your notable Mewtwo weakness. As such, I recommend Specially Defensive Latias, which can take on all variants of Kyogre, except Thunder Wave, with 0 trouble, handle Deoxys-A and Mewtwo with not a care, and also take on even take on CM Arceus with super-effective STAB, in a pinch. The Speed EVs let you outspeed unboosted neutral-natured Rayquaza.

    Latias
    Show Hide

    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Light Screen
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Roost
    item: Soul Dew
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe


    Changing Palkia is the most contentious, but it patches up a lot of holes even Choice Scarf Palkia could not, although that would be the next best change. Good luck.

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