Thanks a lot for this. I'm assuming everyone else feels that way as you and von are the only ones who have commented on it, and it's reassuring.
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Philosopher's Stone War III Changes Discussion
- Thread starter Raikage
- Start date
Ok, so all proposed changes are up. Now, I want to talk about a rather minor problem :P
Basically, the names we've been using like summoner/cavalier/sorcerer/rogue have been kind of confusing because those are actual PF classes. Or at least, sorcerer really confused Jumpluff, and I'm sure other new players will be wondering why their cavalier doesn't have challenge or why their rogue doesn't have rogue talent.
Right now we're proposing changes to Master/Rider/Mage, but there are a few problems.
- Rogue is still Rogue. We could change it to Assassin, I suppose, but see the next point.
- Some names are from F/SN (Master/Rider), most are not. von says that it'd be better if either all or none of the names were from F/SN, so we'd have Master/Shield/Berserker/Rider/Caster/Savior/Archer/Assassin/Sage, but I'm thinking most people like the names they're used to.
So yeah, tell us what names you'd like!
Basically, the names we've been using like summoner/cavalier/sorcerer/rogue have been kind of confusing because those are actual PF classes. Or at least, sorcerer really confused Jumpluff, and I'm sure other new players will be wondering why their cavalier doesn't have challenge or why their rogue doesn't have rogue talent.
Right now we're proposing changes to Master/Rider/Mage, but there are a few problems.
- Rogue is still Rogue. We could change it to Assassin, I suppose, but see the next point.
- Some names are from F/SN (Master/Rider), most are not. von says that it'd be better if either all or none of the names were from F/SN, so we'd have Master/Shield/Berserker/Rider/Caster/Savior/Archer/Assassin/Sage, but I'm thinking most people like the names they're used to.
So yeah, tell us what names you'd like!
Man, I thought you'd ban a LOT more spells. Like Phantasmal Killer, or anything else that literally kills you. If you REEALLY want to keep Feeblemind even nerfed, you have to get rid of Mind Fog.
I think when the game is done I'm gonna have icb make a post in here detailing every broken combo he can think of.
I think when the game is done I'm gonna have icb make a post in here detailing every broken combo he can think of.
Eh, I don't know how I messed up my maths that made me think that they are still acceptable in their current form.
Well, a suggestion I have is to uniformly nerf Master spell DCs by 5. This will reduce the Master's offense and encourage more support-based Masters, and I prefer it over banning spells. Mind Fog's penalty will be reduced to -5 instead of -10, which I think is fair considering you get a will save just for Mind Fog.
I also want to buff high level evocations, mostly Fire Snake/Cone of Cold/Lightning Arc and such. Right now there is really no incentive to take Fire Snake over Fireball, or any other equivalent level 5/3s, because your caster level is 10 and the level 5 evocs don't offer extra damage.
I'll probably give an extra effect to these level 5 evocations. For example, if you fail Fire Snake's Ref save, you start burning and take 1d6 every round for 5 rounds. Lightning Arc would probably daze 1 opponent, and Cone of Cold would induce fatigue.
Also, another important thing that Pluff brought to my attention. Should Masters still count as having 10 HD? I think they should so that many of the HD reliant sleep spells still work on Masters.
Well, a suggestion I have is to uniformly nerf Master spell DCs by 5. This will reduce the Master's offense and encourage more support-based Masters, and I prefer it over banning spells. Mind Fog's penalty will be reduced to -5 instead of -10, which I think is fair considering you get a will save just for Mind Fog.
I also want to buff high level evocations, mostly Fire Snake/Cone of Cold/Lightning Arc and such. Right now there is really no incentive to take Fire Snake over Fireball, or any other equivalent level 5/3s, because your caster level is 10 and the level 5 evocs don't offer extra damage.
I'll probably give an extra effect to these level 5 evocations. For example, if you fail Fire Snake's Ref save, you start burning and take 1d6 every round for 5 rounds. Lightning Arc would probably daze 1 opponent, and Cone of Cold would induce fatigue.
Also, another important thing that Pluff brought to my attention. Should Masters still count as having 10 HD? I think they should so that many of the HD reliant sleep spells still work on Masters.
I actually have no qualms with Deep Slumber not working. I honestly "missed" it when going through the spell list this time.
Nerfing all DCs by 5 is no laughing matter, in fact with Master saves going up already if you do the math the odds of saving against anything becomes way too high. Keep in mind this would effectively halve the damage of all Evocation, which makes it way worse than my nerfs did all across the board. The problem is just "Save or Die" spells, which are super prevalent even at spell level 6 but you don't have to ban too many at level 5. With things like Mind Fog I think you are falling into the same trap I did where certain spells seem balanced on their own but its combinations that are broken. Mind Fog is nothing BUT an enabler.
It's already going to be hard to land some of the worst Will spells but I don't think even a 1/20 chance to instantly die is a good thing.
Buffing some high evocation spells is ok but I'd avoid complex changes to any spells.
Nerfing all DCs by 5 is no laughing matter, in fact with Master saves going up already if you do the math the odds of saving against anything becomes way too high. Keep in mind this would effectively halve the damage of all Evocation, which makes it way worse than my nerfs did all across the board. The problem is just "Save or Die" spells, which are super prevalent even at spell level 6 but you don't have to ban too many at level 5. With things like Mind Fog I think you are falling into the same trap I did where certain spells seem balanced on their own but its combinations that are broken. Mind Fog is nothing BUT an enabler.
It's already going to be hard to land some of the worst Will spells but I don't think even a 1/20 chance to instantly die is a good thing.
Buffing some high evocation spells is ok but I'd avoid complex changes to any spells.
Before I respond to von's post, I just want to say that Mage Armour has been changed so that it don't work on Champions, and Shield doesn't give AC bonuses to Champs already carrying shields. Bullet Shield gives +2 deflection vs arrows.
Well, if you want to remove all "Save or Die" spells because you don't even want there to be the chance of them working (which is understandable) then I'd ban the following spells:
Charm/Dominate anything on PCs (this ought to be banned in any case simply because it forces PCs to do stuff)
Smug Narcissism (Not necessarily broken, but forces people to act in a certain way)
Stinking Cloud
Deep Slumber (if it works on Masters)
Hold Person/Monster
Black Tentacles
Confusion
Phantasmal Killer
Fear
FEEBLEMIND
Symbol of Sleep (If it works on Masters)
Icy Prison
Magic Jar
Baleful Polymorph
Suffocation
Mind Fog
Oppressive Boredom increased to level 3 (thanks Agape!)
Well, if you want to remove all "Save or Die" spells because you don't even want there to be the chance of them working (which is understandable) then I'd ban the following spells:
Charm/Dominate anything on PCs (this ought to be banned in any case simply because it forces PCs to do stuff)
Smug Narcissism (Not necessarily broken, but forces people to act in a certain way)
Stinking Cloud
Deep Slumber (if it works on Masters)
Hold Person/Monster
Black Tentacles
Confusion
Phantasmal Killer
Fear
FEEBLEMIND
Symbol of Sleep (If it works on Masters)
Icy Prison
Magic Jar
Baleful Polymorph
Suffocation
Mind Fog
Oppressive Boredom increased to level 3 (thanks Agape!)
Regarding names: I suggest going with any names, those rai suggested are fine. But I'd like to keep the class names outside of the play. I mean that when a player makes the info roll they wouldn't get the class name, but only champ name and info. That would make it more RP and blur the distinguishing class features of the champ, thus forcing the players to prepare more and/or research the opponent champs' names. Or perhaps reveal the class name only with DC 35?
Spells: My real opinion about SoDs: Not in Pvp games. Ban Feeblemind/Icy prison/etc or at least limit the duration to 2 turns. I think oppressive boredom is the most SoD that should be allowed in PvP.
Save DCs shouldn't be nerfed. If people don't spec will saves it is their loss. This with the evocation buff actually discourages utility masters, encouraging direct damage and prebuffing. As the proposed changes stand, I would spec full evoc and throw empowered fireballs every turn. Expected damage output with quickened missiles is 56 per turn assuming average damage and successful saves. Sustained for 2 turns. The new mana system discourages buffs, since the same benefit can be received as a free action using mana.
Nonetheless I support the evoc unnerfing! If masters can be hit they should be able to hit back. Also throwing gigantic fireballs is very wizardlicious. The unnerf would also encourage resist energy usage.
Regarding spells, I'd like to get arcane bond. One spontaneous spell per day? Hardly broken. At least is it'd take a feat.
The spell list could be tested in a full-munchkin 2v2 arena battle with Von+ICB versus AG+LW or me :)
On the whole, my opinion is to keep as man spells as possible, but remove strong SoDs, nerf the duration of weaker save-or-paralyze spells a lot, leave the saves intact and restore evocation.
I think the summoners should be jacks of all trades, but actually being effective if built for a specific purpose.
Spells: My real opinion about SoDs: Not in Pvp games. Ban Feeblemind/Icy prison/etc or at least limit the duration to 2 turns. I think oppressive boredom is the most SoD that should be allowed in PvP.
Save DCs shouldn't be nerfed. If people don't spec will saves it is their loss. This with the evocation buff actually discourages utility masters, encouraging direct damage and prebuffing. As the proposed changes stand, I would spec full evoc and throw empowered fireballs every turn. Expected damage output with quickened missiles is 56 per turn assuming average damage and successful saves. Sustained for 2 turns. The new mana system discourages buffs, since the same benefit can be received as a free action using mana.
Nonetheless I support the evoc unnerfing! If masters can be hit they should be able to hit back. Also throwing gigantic fireballs is very wizardlicious. The unnerf would also encourage resist energy usage.
Regarding spells, I'd like to get arcane bond. One spontaneous spell per day? Hardly broken. At least is it'd take a feat.
The spell list could be tested in a full-munchkin 2v2 arena battle with Von+ICB versus AG+LW or me :)
On the whole, my opinion is to keep as man spells as possible, but remove strong SoDs, nerf the duration of weaker save-or-paralyze spells a lot, leave the saves intact and restore evocation.
I think the summoners should be jacks of all trades, but actually being effective if built for a specific purpose.
Commenting that ninja'd list: I'd remove all of those but black tentacles. It's not that bad if you prepare (fly, and besides the bad terrain actually protects masters). But I would ban nightmare because it is utterly annoying. Unless you'd allow counterspelling it with one's own nightmare spell.
Also I suggest a hard cap of 2 turns to all paralyze effects like oppressive boredom.
Also I suggest a hard cap of 2 turns to all paralyze effects like oppressive boredom.
Agape: EDIT: We are ninjaing each other too much. The thing is a character's class is really easy to figure out as long as you've fought them before. The only possibly hard to distinguish classes are Warrior and Knight.
As for SoDs - no problems there.
You're very unlikely to have mana to rely on mana buffs. I think players of PSW 1 are drawing from their own experiences, but it won't be difficult to find founts in this game.
Arcane Bond is too strong. It's not even a level 5 spell you prepared, which would always be strong simply because you only get like 3 level 5 spells, it's ANY level 5 spell. It's too much utility and it's a panic button that I don't want people to have to get out of bad situations. It would always force Dimensional Anchor, because you can always Arcane Bond a Teleport, whereas a prepared Teleport uses up one of your precious level 5 spells and reduces your in-battle capabilities. And if you do get anchored, you can just Arcane Bond a battle spell! High level spells are already barely acceptable as they are. Meanwhile, a feat like Lightning Reflexes gives you +2 on Ref saves. Not comparable.
Black Tentacles is too strong. You can't always be flying. The tentacles have a CMB of +15. Four wizards from this war have a CMD of 16, 15, 14, and 13. All of them stand literally no chance at all vs Black Tentacles and get instantly grappled, at which point you cannot cast spells. Even if you have Still Spell Dimension Door prepared (yeah right), you have to make a concentration check.
There is a level 1 spell that beats Black Tentacles for free (Liberating Command), but Black Tentacles is so strong that it forces you to take Liberating Command just in case the opponent ever takes it, and I don't like that.
As for Nightmare, it's funny cause jumpluff and I were discussing it. From what I gather HD abused it a lot in PSW1, but von never saw the need to ban it. I guess I'd like more elaboration on the spell and how it was countered (I remember something about sleeping in the truck).
All paralyze effects that still remain give a save every turn, which I think is fair. I guess we can cap it at 3 turns? 2 is too little for my liking
As for SoDs - no problems there.
You're very unlikely to have mana to rely on mana buffs. I think players of PSW 1 are drawing from their own experiences, but it won't be difficult to find founts in this game.
Arcane Bond is too strong. It's not even a level 5 spell you prepared, which would always be strong simply because you only get like 3 level 5 spells, it's ANY level 5 spell. It's too much utility and it's a panic button that I don't want people to have to get out of bad situations. It would always force Dimensional Anchor, because you can always Arcane Bond a Teleport, whereas a prepared Teleport uses up one of your precious level 5 spells and reduces your in-battle capabilities. And if you do get anchored, you can just Arcane Bond a battle spell! High level spells are already barely acceptable as they are. Meanwhile, a feat like Lightning Reflexes gives you +2 on Ref saves. Not comparable.
Black Tentacles is too strong. You can't always be flying. The tentacles have a CMB of +15. Four wizards from this war have a CMD of 16, 15, 14, and 13. All of them stand literally no chance at all vs Black Tentacles and get instantly grappled, at which point you cannot cast spells. Even if you have Still Spell Dimension Door prepared (yeah right), you have to make a concentration check.
There is a level 1 spell that beats Black Tentacles for free (Liberating Command), but Black Tentacles is so strong that it forces you to take Liberating Command just in case the opponent ever takes it, and I don't like that.
As for Nightmare, it's funny cause jumpluff and I were discussing it. From what I gather HD abused it a lot in PSW1, but von never saw the need to ban it. I guess I'd like more elaboration on the spell and how it was countered (I remember something about sleeping in the truck).
All paralyze effects that still remain give a save every turn, which I think is fair. I guess we can cap it at 3 turns? 2 is too little for my liking
My run down on this list
Smug Narcissism is fine in that case then.
Stinking Cloud - I feel that it's a bit abusable because of things like Hydraulic Torrent, or other spells that push you back in/prevent you from leaving. It's also an extra thing to keep in mind when designing champion abilities. It is also an AoE disable, and is overall very powerful for a level 3. Even if I were to nerf it to last 1 round after leaving, I would want to make it level 4.
Black Tentacles - See my edited post above. If there's ways around it though, I'm all for not banning it. It simply is too powerful in my opinion now.
Fear - My worry is that it's too easy to corner a feared character, at which point they cower. You can achieve this via fighting in enclosed spaces, casting Wall spells, etc.
Symbol of Sleep - Well, I suppose it's your own fault if you get nailed by it, but it is far more potent than the other Symbols when combined with Symbol of Scrying; the Master falls asleep and can't be roused except by Dispel from ally Masters, at which point he is vulnerable to a coup de grace. I'd like to discuss more about this spell before we make a decision.
Icy Prison - I'd still want to make it Reflex negates instead of partial though.
Magic Jar - Yes, it's fine if usable on NPCs only.
Oppressive Boredom - It's weird because Daze Monster, which is only a few spells away from it, has the same kind of effect but is much weaker.
Stinking Cloud - I feel that it's a bit abusable because of things like Hydraulic Torrent, or other spells that push you back in/prevent you from leaving. It's also an extra thing to keep in mind when designing champion abilities. It is also an AoE disable, and is overall very powerful for a level 3. Even if I were to nerf it to last 1 round after leaving, I would want to make it level 4.
Black Tentacles - See my edited post above. If there's ways around it though, I'm all for not banning it. It simply is too powerful in my opinion now.
Fear - My worry is that it's too easy to corner a feared character, at which point they cower. You can achieve this via fighting in enclosed spaces, casting Wall spells, etc.
Symbol of Sleep - Well, I suppose it's your own fault if you get nailed by it, but it is far more potent than the other Symbols when combined with Symbol of Scrying; the Master falls asleep and can't be roused except by Dispel from ally Masters, at which point he is vulnerable to a coup de grace. I'd like to discuss more about this spell before we make a decision.
Icy Prison - I'd still want to make it Reflex negates instead of partial though.
Magic Jar - Yes, it's fine if usable on NPCs only.
Oppressive Boredom - It's weird because Daze Monster, which is only a few spells away from it, has the same kind of effect but is much weaker.
Dimension Door is already a Still Spell (as is Teleport), though that is not very important. Concentration Check has DC 25 + spell level against Black Tentacles (CMB 15), so DC 29 Concentration to Dimension Door out. Assuming 18 INT, you get a +14 bonus (10 caster level, 4 INT modifier), meaning you'd have to roll a natural 15 to DDoor out (30% chance).
Countermeasures that do not include banning Black Tentacles are:
1) Combat Casting +4, Uncanny Concentration +2 (but those are feats, so I'm not sure how much we should spend on overcoming ONE spell), raising it to 50% or 60%, which is still too low
2) Give summoners a bonus to CMD, but you'd need something like a +10 to even drop the odds to 50%
So yeah, both options are bad ones. Agreeing with the removal of Black Tentacles from the game.
Just declare the champions to be familiars. Arcane bond problem solved right there!
Yea let's make champs familiars :)
Vampiric touch was always underrated anyways.
Nightmare was used against me in psw1, in which I and AG's summoners slept 8h in a moving truck in the morning. Fun.
But in psw2 I had to use a champ ability to counter it.
My main argument against nightmare is that the spell isn't fun. It gives little benefit because it is countered by sleeping, thus giving the targets still over half the day to work with. It is just a troll spell to waste a 4th level slot on. Well at least in earlygame.
Idk about black tentacles, I could myself live with it being used against me. Concentration checks only fail on a natural 1 on level 5 spells only anyway. (Combat casting is always worth it.)
Vampiric touch was always underrated anyways.
Nightmare was used against me in psw1, in which I and AG's summoners slept 8h in a moving truck in the morning. Fun.
But in psw2 I had to use a champ ability to counter it.
My main argument against nightmare is that the spell isn't fun. It gives little benefit because it is countered by sleeping, thus giving the targets still over half the day to work with. It is just a troll spell to waste a 4th level slot on. Well at least in earlygame.
Idk about black tentacles, I could myself live with it being used against me. Concentration checks only fail on a natural 1 on level 5 spells only anyway. (Combat casting is always worth it.)
AG: Well, I don't want to give them familiar powers. The current Masters already have special Summoner class features anyway.
Agape: I can understand your problems with Nightmare I suppose, but it's not really broken so I dunno about banning it :/
Black Tentacles is pretty bad, AG explained why.
Agape: I can understand your problems with Nightmare I suppose, but it's not really broken so I dunno about banning it :/
Black Tentacles is pretty bad, AG explained why.
Well Raikage my main problem was that everyoner is basically going to make Detect Magic permament on themselves. And even with that, it's on ly a 60 ft range, every 60 ft you walk you have to turn around to check the area. After 1 round you can tell if there is or isn't anything. If there is then another round to tell the number of auras and which one is the strongest. And one more round to tell their location. Considering that you are gonna walk around like that is pretty stupid, at least RP wise. I guess there are indeed many defensive spells you can use to protect them, but for finding them a once per day usable ability that scans the area around you for the aura signal of a fount in like a 200 ft range would be nice, instead of doing a pirouette every 60 feet. Speaking of which, perma is still an option this game?
There's no real difference in making Detect Magic permanent because it's level 0. You can always cast it as long as you take it that day, so everyone will just take Detect Magic every day if they don't permanency it.
I don't see why there's a problem with using Detect Magic, I mean, it's not like you have to RP out your char searching the area. I think you're concerned that your char looks stupid but to the casual observer you'll just look like someone who is observing the area ( which you are).
I don't see why there's a problem with using Detect Magic, I mean, it's not like you have to RP out your char searching the area. I think you're concerned that your char looks stupid but to the casual observer you'll just look like someone who is observing the area ( which you are).
I actually included spamming detect magic in all my day plans in all PSWs. It never yielded any effect. Up to now I just assumed Von vetoed that sort of abuse and I think LW is referring to that as well but idk. Nice if you make it worth the trouble, but that's gonna take a lot bookkeeping, keeping track of the masters' walks.
Note to self: Tip every new player all the ideas Von has vetoed thus far.
Note to self: Tip every new player all the ideas Von has vetoed thus far.
The mention of Disguise reminded me of something. Fact is disguise is really underpowered at the moment, you p much need to combine it with Bluff, at which point you are better off just bluffing(if the see through your disguise which your bluff is based on, it will take a huge penetaly). Just by the fact you see oh it's not simple guy but a player as soon as the ecounter starts, means that an evil guy may just RP to kill them, avoiding any trickery.
If one or both sides are disguised, the communication should be done through the host(In case neither side sees through the disguise the host has to wait till two are on at the same time). Even if both sides see through it, they should stay hidden pretending they didn't. This also makes controlled NPCs better, since people wouldn't instantly know if the guy in question was an NPC or just a good disguise. Right now disguises are only good for pretending to be a different champion(which is only good till you use an ability, or in some cases attacking). Well okay you could use it to fool NPCs, but a Bluff alone will be enough for that, people will believe all but the worst lies, especially if you can back it up with magic.
If one or both sides are disguised, the communication should be done through the host(In case neither side sees through the disguise the host has to wait till two are on at the same time). Even if both sides see through it, they should stay hidden pretending they didn't. This also makes controlled NPCs better, since people wouldn't instantly know if the guy in question was an NPC or just a good disguise. Right now disguises are only good for pretending to be a different champion(which is only good till you use an ability, or in some cases attacking). Well okay you could use it to fool NPCs, but a Bluff alone will be enough for that, people will believe all but the worst lies, especially if you can back it up with magic.
A wild Lightwolf appears!
Pluff used Bluff!
Lightwolf is confused!
Lightwolf hit itself in confusion!
Pluff used Backstab with a +15 sword! Critical hit! It's super effective! 102 damage!
Lightwolf is knocked out cold!
Qapshiel as well. Bluff is insanely good. Mundane disguises can be used to gain bonuses to the important surprise round bluff checks. Magical disguises can be used to get your zombies to substitute the Mayor. I don't see disguise underpowered.
I'd like to see NPC encounters more. Perhaps have retired players play them?
E:
23:12 <+Agape> I don't exactly like the new assassin
23:12 <+Agape> 1) go to a clock tower
23:13 <+Agape> 2) spying eyes level 5 spell
23:13 <+Agape> 3) kill people with a heavy crossbow
23:14 <+Agape> the new rogue is basically forced to go ranged
23:15 <+Agape> the 3-round observation is perfect for kiting, and encourages a weird defensive buff/kiting approach which isn't exactly roguelike
Pluff used Bluff!
Lightwolf is confused!
Lightwolf hit itself in confusion!
Pluff used Backstab with a +15 sword! Critical hit! It's super effective! 102 damage!
Lightwolf is knocked out cold!
Qapshiel as well. Bluff is insanely good. Mundane disguises can be used to gain bonuses to the important surprise round bluff checks. Magical disguises can be used to get your zombies to substitute the Mayor. I don't see disguise underpowered.
I'd like to see NPC encounters more. Perhaps have retired players play them?
E:
23:12 <+Agape> I don't exactly like the new assassin
23:12 <+Agape> 1) go to a clock tower
23:13 <+Agape> 2) spying eyes level 5 spell
23:13 <+Agape> 3) kill people with a heavy crossbow
23:14 <+Agape> the new rogue is basically forced to go ranged
23:15 <+Agape> the 3-round observation is perfect for kiting, and encourages a weird defensive buff/kiting approach which isn't exactly roguelike
Lightwolf: Well, I didn't know that von ran Disguise that way.
Agape: It's more a problem of Disguise not doing what it's supposed to do.
You can't do observe for Assassinate, do a ranged Assassinate, or Sneak Attack outside of 30 feet. This isn't even something I invented either, Sneak Attacks don't work further than 30 feet in Pathfinder.
Assassinate also only works if you surprise your opponent.
Agape: It's more a problem of Disguise not doing what it's supposed to do.
You can't do observe for Assassinate, do a ranged Assassinate, or Sneak Attack outside of 30 feet. This isn't even something I invented either, Sneak Attacks don't work further than 30 feet in Pathfinder.
Assassinate also only works if you surprise your opponent.
Do you intend to run it in a different way?
Before announcing the ecounter he will roll if the disguise is seen through, if it is normal ecounter, if it isn't the guy can either observe(assassin) or just get his surprise round. If neither side sees through the disguise then no ecounter happens, bar if you are like Agape and make your Monk look like Otto von Bismarck, which I believe would cause some attention.
This means disguises are actually good, yay!