Philosopher's Stone War III Changes Discussion

[Raikage]

One million and one things to respond to.

Escape Buttons

I've solved the escape buttons issue for the Assassin already; rather than an escape button the Assassin needs a way to escape after Assassinate so that she isn't forced to stick around and fight after making someone lose an order. I think that's perfectly fine, if you look at Alexia in this playtest, Crimson Flash achieves just that, but Safety in a Crowd's teleport + disguise was unnecessary.

As for general escape buttons, I guess the rationale for is that people don't want to just straight up lose an order spell because they happened to run into a bad match-up while wandering about. I'm still not very in favor of escape buttons because they make danger in the game less scary and cause it lengthens the game, and PSW is already long enough. I may give extremely limited escape abilities that might be once or twice per game only, however, but even those should remain extremely uncommon.

Telekinesis

Well, Grapple TK has the same problem as Black Tentacles does, but I find it much more acceptable because it's concentration. This coupled with how vulnerable Masters are now makes it an acceptable level 5 for me, especially when you factor in that Defensive Combat Training straight up beats it. Perhaps it should have a nerf on its range, but I would like to see more discussion on this for sure before I do anything.

Assassin

For now I plan to ban Dastardly Finish and make Assassinate 30d6 sneak (this averages 105 damage) which should probably be good enough. I agree that hiding should be harder, and I already have ideas in mind to deal with it.

Mana

I have some ideas on dealing with mana overflow but my best idea right now is to allow players to use mana for healing. Obviously this is imperfect because it gives the Savior a mana overflow but it can be balanced. Still trying to think of a better solution. I also have a few other minor solutions in mind but I'd prefer to keep those secret for PSW III.

Berserker

I want to replace the 11 feats innate with the Mad Enhancement ability that The Ice King had, but I'd like discussion on the specifics (how much should the bonus be? Should the ability to spend mana for more stay in?)

 

[vonFiedler]

If you simply get rid of all 11 bonus feats then Shield isn't the closest to a Fighter (no bonus feats), but Rider is.

 

[Raikage]

I've been wondering about this von but is there any real reason for giving Rider 15 feats instead of 10? I think that the class' innates are more than good enough as it is now.

 

[vonFiedler]

Martial prowess. Bonus combat feats translate directly to that, that's what the Fighter is all about. Rider got some extra feats, Shield got some DR. Though to be completely honest, since your playtest has started I've realized that DR/5 is extremely low. You may want to add to the Shield's defense, or give him bonus feats.

 

[Raikage]

I'm in favor of moving the Rider's 5 extra feats to the Knight instead, yes. I think DR 10 is too overwhelming, I prefer higher AC instead.

 

[vonFiedler]

If you move all of them then it's just a class with a full base attack. It would have nothing else that distinguishes it in combat, his other innates don't win fights. It needs a chance of standing up to the Berserker/Shield, not just the ability to run away.

 

[Raikage]

That's a fair point, and it bring to my mind another question: why don't we just make the Rider's mount an innate? It's always possible to use an ability for a legendary mount which will add on to that (what Bellorophon had). In fact I was under the impression that Genghis Khan's Unicorn was an innate until I realized he only had two other special abilities.

 

[vonFiedler]

Two reasons. As was the case with both previous riders, they did things unique to their Servant. Second, ideally the Rider's mount is what makes them a unique historical figure, meaning it warrants a Noble Phantasm. If you make the mount innate and then any special characteristic an Ability, you are still taking up one of three Abilities. If you meant to replace the Rider's Chase and Retreat, I added those in the first place because a mount was proven to not be enough to chase and retreat. Maybe a flying mount would have been, but not every Rider should be pressured into having a flying mount.

 

[Raikage]

Nah, I have no intention of removing Rider's Chase and Retreat. I suppose rather than for power reasons, I wanted to have a mount innate in case it's a Rider like Genghis Khan who didn't have a legendary mount, freeing up his 3rd ability slot (although you can argue Rider should always have a mount ability anyway). I don't think there's a real problem with Rider keeping its extra feats, but Knight should rightly get it too.

 

[Agape]

IMAO the rider's mount should be an extra ability (a customizable innate). This would further distinguish the rider from other hack 'n slash champs. It is strong enough to win with if munchkinized.

30d6 sneak attack is nice. It will cause newb deaths, and increase lameness but it can actually force masters to stay home during fights. (Shadow Projection FTW!) If hiding is made possible, 30d6 is nice. If it's not, assassin is OP and needs to be killed first.

Perhaps make assassinate possible only on champs? Masters would receive normal sneak attack damage instead?

On the whole I don't see the balance a problem, because both full attack melee and high damage spells are equally broken, creating a need to either to trust AC or SR (my experimentation in PSW2 shows HP just doesn't cut it). Basically if a player wants to survive, he must prepare for only both fighter and sorcerer. (Hello Shadow Projection, Counterspell, Displacement and Blink just to name a few; defensive playing is possible.)

What I'd want to see is coolness and deception beating munchkin defences. Perhaps bonus mana for RP!

Bottom-line: 30d6 isn't broken compared to other stuff, mount should be an innate because it's the core of Rider.

 

[Raikage]

After some thought on Mana, here's my new proposed system:

Each player starts with 300, and gains 100 Mana each day. Founts are as usual, but give 50 mana each. Destroying a fount still gives 100. Maximum mana is capped at 1000. Obviously the numbers might need to be adjusted. I think with this system it won't be as bad if you get unlucky, and there won't be stockpiling cause there's maximum mana.

I'm still thinking of ways to reward fighting over escaping in a way that won't harm Assassin and Rider, although such a feature doesn't seem that necessary to me now that I've had more time to think

Current situation on the classes: Assassinate is changed to 30d6 with Dastardly Finish banned, Berserker loses its extra feats but gains Mad Enhancement with a flat +6 to STR/CON and +3 to Will, Knight gains AC bonuses, nothing to the Rider (will leave Rider changes to future hosts).

 

[Aura Guardian]

After some thought on Mana, here's my new proposed system:

Each player starts with 300, and gains 100 Mana each day. Founts are as usual, but give 50 mana each. Destroying a fount still gives 100. Maximum mana is capped at 1000. Obviously the numbers might need to be adjusted. I think with this system it won't be as bad if you get unlucky, and there won't be stockpiling cause there's maximum mana.

Minor problem with the system. Given how fast mana founts were destroyed in the playtest, it will be more profitable in the long run for people to coordinate their founts with the first person they meet. Specifically, build a fount, other guy destroys it and builds another, which the first guy then destroys. Rinse and repeat for each fount that day. You just gained 200 Mana from founts in one day when it would have taken 2 days normally, and founts probably will last only 1 or 2 days, 3 tops.

I'm still thinking of ways to reward fighting over escaping in a way that won't harm Assassin and Rider, although such a feature doesn't seem that necessary to me now that I've had more time to think

Since it doesn't seem necessary to you now, this statement is probably useless, but... why not reward Assassin and Rider differently from the rest? Tailor the reward system to how the champ is supposed to be played, and all that.

Current situation on the classes: Assassinate is changed to 30d6 with Dastardly Finish banned, Berserker loses its extra feats but gains Mad Enhancement with a flat +6 to STR/CON and +3 to Will, Knight gains AC bonuses, nothing to the Rider (will leave Rider changes to future hosts).

Will Berserker keep the D12 Hit Dice? And has he been changed to Barbarian, then?

 

[Raikage]

Agape, I think 30d6 Assassinate is fine as long as it's not too easy for the Assassin to fulfill the Assassinate requirements, which I will endeavor to ensure in PSW III. Anyway the attack still doesn't kill Masters outright so it's hardly broken.

There're actually very few ways to increase SR.

I agree that a mount should be an innate just because it's Rider but I am loathe to deal with it now so I have decided to leave it in the hands of whoever hosts PSW IV.

AG, your first concern is very valid. I'll reduce the destroying bonus to 50 and raise the basic amount gained to 150 per day then. Do not worry, I will scale ability costs accordingly.

Regarding the award system - there's nothing wrong with your point, I just don't like such a method because I feel it is inelegant :P I am likely not going to include such a system now anyway.

Berserker will still retain his d12 hitdie. You can interpret the class as Barbarian but like the other classes it still won't have its other class features like Rage Powers.

 

[Agape]

Proposing a medium-sized master buff: Changing master BAB to the level 20 BAB.

Reasoning: The bulkier masters will see more melee in PSW3, increasing the BAB, ergo touch attack would help them vamptouch and tanglefoot champions in self defence. The buffed ranged touch wouldn't be too much a buff, because the only ranged touch that has been used is Scorching Ray, and adding a few %hit isn't going to affect the expected damage output much.

23:03 <+Agape> do you agree with the level 20 master BAB buff?
23:03 <+Aura_Guardian> yes

Also Raikage are you going to keep the base champ SR that was in PSW1?

 

[vonFiedler]

The whole point of Touch Attacks is that you can use them with the wimpy mage BAB.

 

[Aura Guardian]

But not against the mighty buffed AC. Accuracy averages 25% with touch spells under the +10 AC buff system. To put it in context, the touch spells at our character level in a regular game would hit 75% of the time. The meager +5 we'd get to hit would give us ~50% accuracy, which is still mediocre, but it allows for another way of fighting if you're creative enough.

 

[Raikage]

I would reduce base Master touch AC back to 15 instead of buffing Master BAB. 20 base touch is higher than Champions anyway, which doesn't really make sense.

Champions have SR 20 so Master spells fail against them 50% of the time.