1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Pinsir (Man 10/10)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Honko, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Man in Progress

    [​IMG]
    Pinsir

    If the first few sentences of the overview look familiar, it's because I stole them from my own old UU Pinsir analysis (which is no longer linked onsite).

    [Overview]

    <p>On a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being the coolest, Pinsir scores at least a 12. Besides its fantastic design, Pinsir also boasts a fearsome base 125 Attack, above-average Speed, STAB X-Scissor to hit many of RU's walls super effectively, and powerful coverage moves such as Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Close Combat. Throw that all together and you have a dangerous offensive Pokemon. Unfortunately for Pinsir, "dangerous offensive Pokemon" are a common sight in RU, and Pinsir's limited switch-in opportunities and lack of a powerful STAB move have made it difficult to justify using over other physical sweepers like Kabutops, Gallade, and Durant. In fact, there's only one thing that really makes Pinsir worth considering over more standard alternatives: Moxie. Pinsir is the only viable Pokemon with Moxie in RU, giving it a unique ability to put constantly increasing offensive pressure on its opponent. Moxie forces Pinsir's opponents to respond predictably or risk losing the match quickly as Pinsir picks up boosts and becomes unwallable. It requires a significant amount of support to be successful; if you're looking for a physical sweeper that you can throw on your team as an afterthought and be successful, Kabutops or Gallade would be a better choice. On the other hand, if you're looking to build a team around an extremely manly bug with the potential to steamroll healthy teams in just a few turns, give Pinsir a shot.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: X-Scissor
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Quick Attack
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The market for Swords Dance in RU might seem crowded, but Pinsir has plenty of perks that make it a lethal boosting sweeper. Above-average Speed gives Pinsir the advantage against the popular base 80 Speed group, and a solid Defense stat allows it to brush off most priority moves. Bug typing, despite all its defensive disadvantages, is a blessing offensively, as STAB X-Scissor slices through many of RU's top defensive Pokemon, including Tangrowth, Slowking, and Uxie. Earthquake is the coverage move that RU's other Bug-types wish they had, giving Pinsir super effective coverage against Qwilfish, Steelix, and Rhydon. The true magic of this set, however, is the combination of Quick Attack and Moxie. For most Pokemon, non-STAB Quick Attack is dismissed as too weak to be useful, but with Moxie, it becomes an excellent defense against revenge killers and is the key to Pinsir's success. After a Swords Dance boost, Pinsir can OHKO most of RU's best walls with X-Scissor or Earthquake. With Moxie kicking in and boosting Pinsir to +3, Quick Attack becomes powerful enough to OHKO most potential revenge killers with hazard support. Once it reaches +3, the list of Pokemon that can stop Pinsir from sweeping is short: Aerodactyl, Archeops, Durant, Emboar (with a Choice Scarf), Entei, Misdreavus, Quagsire, and Rotom. Unless your opponent has one of those Pokemon healthy, the game is over.</p>

    <p>Of course, the real trick is getting to +3 in the first place. Pinsir's best chance at setting up is by forcing out slow Pokemon like Slowking and Lanturn. Against fast offensive teams, Pinsir probably won't have the opportunity to set up and is unlikely to single-handedly 6-0 your opponent's team. However, it still has value in offensive match-ups thanks to its Speed, power, and access to priority. Pinsir can OHKO Kabutops attempting to spin or pick off weakened Cinccino and Manectric with Quick Attack, and although a single Moxie boost usually won't be enough to sweep, it does put a lot of pressure on your opponent to play conservatively and predictably to avoid giving Pinsir the opportunity to pick up any more boosts.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Here are some damage calculations showing how difficult Pinsir can be to wall at +2 and to revenge kill at +3:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/252+ Tangrowth: 110.6 - 131.2%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/88 Amoonguss: 99.5 - 117.6%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/124 Druddigon: 96.9 - 114.2%</li>
    <li>+1 Earthquake vs. 252/240+ Qwilfish: 119.2 - 140.1%</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 88/0 Eviolite Rhydon: 92.8 - 109.4% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 248/0 Escavalier: 84.5 - 99.7% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 252/220+ Steelix: 74.9 - 89% (31% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Absol: 83.8 - 98.9% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Galvantula: 80.8 - 95.4% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Manectric: 80.8 - 95.4% (56% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Moltres: 51.4 - 60.7% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Cinccino: 78 - 92.1% (OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Sceptile: 75.8 - 89.7% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Typhlosion: 62.3 - 73.4% (69% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Life Orb and an Adamant nature might sound like overkill at first, given that Pinsir will be boosting its Attack with Swords Dance and Moxie, but a look at the calculations above reveals that Pinsir really does need all the power it can get. Switching to a Lum Berry or a Jolly nature makes many of those OHKOs disappear, and if Pinsir can't OHKO its initial switch-in or potential revenge killer, its sweep will end before it begins. Luckily, Kabutops and Gallade usually run Adamant natures, so Adamant Pinsir will still outspeed them, although it will unfortunately miss out on beating Smeargle and Timid Mesprit. Stone Edge is a tempting move to add to this set in order to hit Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Rotom, but most of its potential targets are faster than Pinsir, so it wouldn't prevent them from stopping Pinsir's sweep; it's certainly not worth giving up Earthquake's coverage against physical walls or Quick Attack's priority. Close Combat would normally be an appealing alternative to Earthquake, but sadly it is illegal with Quick Attack, so it is not recommended on this set.</p>

    <p>As the calculations above show, Pinsir relies heavily on entry hazard support. Stealth Rock is absolutely essential for wearing down Moltres and Pinsir's other Fire- and Flying-type checks, but Spikes are also very valuable, especially for bringing faster Pokemon into Quick Attack's range. If you can consistently get multiple layers of Spikes up, that extra damage can also make up for the power loss if you choose to use a Jolly nature. Qwilfish is a fantastic teammate for Pinsir, as it can set up Spikes, spread paralysis to help Pinsir beat faster Pokemon that Quick Attack can't OHKO, and check most of the Pokemon that give Pinsir trouble. Uxie and Druddigon are also good teammates that can spread paralysis to additional targets and set up Stealth Rock. Spiritomb and Escavalier provide helpful Pursuit support to take out opposing Rotom, Misdreavus, and Mesprit. Finally, Pinsir greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support. It isn't strictly necessary, as Pinsir should ideally only need to switch in one time per match to sweep, but Kabutops has excellent synergy with Pinsir, so it's usually worth including.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: X-Scissor
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Close Combat
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Pinsir's decent Speed, excellent Attack, and great coverage moves make it an effective revenge killer when holding a Choice Scarf. It can OHKO many of RU's most popular sweepers, including Kabutops, Sceptile, Entei, Cinccino, Sigilyph, and Moltres, and its solid Defense allows it to survive powerful priority attacks, including Choice Band Entei's ExtremeSpeed and +2 Life Orb Kabutops's Aqua Jet. Moxie is the cherry on top of this set, allowing Pinsir to put heavy pressure on the opponent and potentially achieve a late-game sweep. However, beware of focusing too much on trying to get a Moxie sweep. Without a boosting item or the ability to switch moves, Pinsir is quite easy to wall, even at +1, so it usually won't have any shot at sweeping until late in the game when the opponent's team is significantly weakened. This can make it tempting to try to keep Pinsir healthy for the end of the match in order to achieve that sweep. Unfortunately, no matter how healthy it is, there will be many matches when Pinsir simply won't be able to sweep, so keeping it in reserve all match will result in a wasted teamslot and put you at a disadvantage. If your opponent's team looks particularly vulnerable to a Pinsir sweep, go for it, but otherwise you should play Pinsir like any other revenge killer: send it out whenever you need to KO or force out a dangerous opponent.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>240 Speed EVs allow Pinsir to outspeed +1 Modest Magmortar and +2 Adamant Aggron. The 16 HP EVs actually do serve a useful purpose: they guarantee that Pinsir will survive a super effective Hidden Power from Life Orb Sceptile if it hasn't taken any previous damage, meaning Pinsir can revenge kill Sceptile even if Sceptile has a Substitute up. Pinsir needs an Adamant nature to consistently get the KOs it should; Entei, Sigilyph, and Emboar will usually survive a hit from Jolly Pinsir even after Stealth Rock, but all three will usually fall to Adamant Pinsir. You should only consider using Jolly if you have multiple layers of hazards to make up for the loss of power and you need Pinsir to outspeed Accelgor and positive-natured +1 base 80s, such as Jolly Choice Scarf Medicham and Jolly Weak Armor Kabutops. Speaking of Kabutops, it is an excellent partner for this set. As a revenge killer, Pinsir will want to switch in several times during the match without being crippled by Stealth Rock damage; Kabutops can reliably spin away hazards and has great synergy with Pinsir. Poliwrath is a hard stop to both Pinsir and Kabutops, so make sure you bring something that can beat it, such as Rotom, Sigilyph, or Uxie.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Pinsir can use an all-out attacking set with Life Orb or Choice Band to do a lot of damage to slow or paralyzed teams. However, it has difficulty switching in safely, and faster Pokemon will easily force it out, so this type of set doesn't really play to Pinsir's strengths. A Substitute + 3 attacks set with a Salac Berry can sweep late-game if the opponent's physical walls and priority users have been eliminated, but it will struggle to accomplish anything at all before those two conditions are met. Superpower and the uncommon Storm Throw are Pinsir's best legal options for Fighting-type coverage on sets that use Quick Attack, but both are completely inferior to Close Combat in any other situation. Pinsir can set up Stealth Rock if absolutely necessary, but it's not very good in a supporting role and rarely has moveslots to spare. Toxic is Pinsir's best option against certain bulky Pokemon like Misdreavus and Quagsire. Finally, Hyper Cutter and Mold Breaker are both decent abilities; Mold Breaker in particular is intriguing, as it allows Pinsir to beat one of its biggest counters in Rotom (although Mold Breaker announces itself when Pinsir comes into the match, so good players won't switch Rotom in). Unfortunately, Pinsir is simply a mediocre Pokemon without Moxie. If you're using Pinsir with one of its other abilities, you'd almost certainly be better off using another Pokemon like Kabutops, Durant, Gallade, or Entei in its place.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Quagsire and Misdreavus are the safest counters to Pinsir; Misdreavus resists or is immune to most of Pinsir's attacks, has excellent physical bulk with Eviolite, and can burn Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp, while Quagsire ignores Pinsir's Moxie boosts with Unaware and can simply stall it out with Recover. All other counters depend on which set Pinsir is running. Rotom and Aerodactyl are excellent answers to the Swords Dance set, but neither can switch into Stone Edge from the Choice Scarf set. Poliwrath and Alomomola are hard stops to the Choice Scarf set, but Poliwrath takes heavy damage from the Swords Dance set and can only phaze Pinsir with Circle Throw, while Alomomola becomes set-up bait as it is forced into a predictable Wish + Protect cycle. Faster Choice Scarf users that can survive Quick Attack are good revenge killers if Pinsir is weakened, but most of them won't be able to OHKO a healthy Pinsir without a STAB super effective attack; for example, Choice Scarf Rotom-C's Thunderbolt does a maximum of 78% to Pinsir. In general, the most important thing is to prevent Pinsir from boosting. Avoid switching in slower Pokemon that give it a chance to set up or weakened Pokemon that it can KO for a free Moxie boost. Without boosts, Pinsir is just another powerful physical attacker that any good team should already be able to handle.</p>
  2. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,484
    imo if you're going to run 240 Speed EVs you may as well just run max speed. Seeing a scenario where someone has a base 85 speed Pokemon with max speed or a Skuntank is probably more common than when those 16 HP EVs come in handy.
  3. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    It's not a big deal either way, but Scarfed base 85s and 84s are really never seen in RU. Pinsir is the only one you'll ever see, and it still isn't remotely common (yet?). That extra 4 HP actually guarantees Pinsir always survives LO Sceptile's HP Rock/Fire if there are no hazards, so Scarf can switch in if it really needs to, or revenge kill a Sceptile that already has a Sub up. Personally, I find that cooler.

    I'll change SD though since I guess you might occasionally see a Skuntank or...Golduck?
  4. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Get checkin' boys.
  5. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    651
    I'm not QC but I have some suggestions ^.^

    I think for the first set, Spritomb is a good partner for Pinsir thanks to its ability to get rid of Rotom. Spritomb can use Choice Band or CM up. CM version is for balanced teams and doesnt give a thought for WoW, while Choice Band does.

    Some merits of using Jolly on the SD set is to outspeed Lilligant and Magmortar (most importantly), so it can avoid a Sleep Power / Hidden Power Fire / Rock or Fire Blast, respectively. It also helps to outspeed Gallade too I guess?
  6. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Yeah, Spiritomb is a good partner, I will mention it for sure.

    In my experience, Magmortar/Gallade(/Kabutops/Medicham/Mesprit) are usually Modest/Adamant, and Lilligant are usually Timid, so Pinsir doesn't need Jolly to outspeed the first two and can't outspeed Lilli even with it. Jolly is nice if you want to be certain, but it's not worth the lost KOs imo.
  7. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    963
    Fantastic job on this:

    [qc]1/3[/qc]


    And a gold star.

    (just make sure to add Rotom, Poliwrath, etc into counters when you write this up for real :p)
  8. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,972
    agreeing with silentverse, good job! Wouldnt expect anything worse from you, though!

    QC Approved 2/3

    As silentverse, be sure to add Pinsir's checks into Checks and Counters instead of what you have now, but be sure to keep silentverse in checks in counters, best pinsir check ever made :P.
  9. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,074
    [qc]3/3[/qc]

    honko is a nub let it be known
  10. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,750
  11. deluge

    deluge

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    977
    I guess Weezing is rare in RU (106th in November), but with Levitate, a Bug resistance, great physical bulk and the ability to threaten with Will-O-Wisp, Clear Smog, or Fire Blast, I'm pretty sure it's a full stop for SD Pinsir.

    [As I read NU's Pinsir analysis I was wondering why it didn't have a Swords Dance set especially upon seeing an SD set in RU. But I guess the composition of NU (Weezing and Alomomoonguss more common) answers my question. Pinsir can't break them so easily even after a boost.]
  12. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,478
    This has been reassigned. Post in the index thread if you want it!
  13. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Nope, I'm still doing this.
  14. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,478
    As per this post you had two weeks to even write a single paragraph for the Overview, ignoring the fact that you did not work on it for two whole months. If no one picks it up by March 1st then you can have it back. Analyses generally take less than a month to complete and I always reassign important analyses that haven't been worked on for over a month in order to get them on-site in a timely fashion. If you had been actively contributing to RU C&C you would have seen my post and talked to me if you wanted to continue it, and yet the deadline would have still been the same. No exceptions.
  15. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    [​IMG]

    I wasn't arguing, I was suggesting an improvement to your flawed process: If you want people to write analyses faster, it would be more efficient to remind them either in the analysis itself or via PM on IRC if you're both online at the same time a lot. Posting a reminder in a thread they have no reason to check is unlikely to accomplish much of anything.

    And implying that I don't contribute to C&C is laughable. I check this board all the time and actively QC. If you had posted the deadline in this thread, I would have seen it and responded. Just because I don't check the Index thread, where 99% of the posts are redundant info like "X analysis is ready for QC" that I can already see just by looking at the new topics on the board, doesn't somehow mean I was unreachable.

    It would have taken you literally 5 seconds to ping me on IRC at some point in those "4" months (actually 2, it got approved in December and today is February, but ok) and say "Hey, need some progress on Pinsir soon or I'm gonna reassign" and it would have happened. So I am recommending that you try that next time.
  16. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,074
    Honko if you still want to write it go ahead, I was under the assumption that DC had PMed/alerted you about it outside of the index thread.

    DC and I did set up the process that is currently in implementation and has been for a while, so it seems there was just lack of communication on both parties.

    Though it would be wise to get it written up asap, it'd be nice to have an updated Pinsir analysis onsite 9.9
  17. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Thanks Oglemi. I'll try to get it done this weekend.
  18. GCSChris

    GCSChris

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    434
    Very nice analysis. I made an amateur GP check.
    Deletions
    Additions

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>On a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being the coolest, Pinsir scores at least a 12. Besides its fantastic design, Pinsir also boasts a fearsome base 125 Attack, above-average Speed, STAB X-Scissor to hit many of RU's walls super effectively, and powerful coverage moves such as Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Close Combat. Throw that all of those perks together and you have a dangerous offensive Pokemon. Unfortunately for Pinsir, "dangerous offensive Pokemon" are a common sight in RU, and Pinsir's limited switch-in opportunities and lack of a powerful STAB move have made it difficult to justify using over other physical sweepers like Kabutops, Gallade, and Durant. In fact, there's only one thing that really makes Pinsir worth considering over more standard alternatives: Moxie. Pinsir is the only viable Pokemon with Moxie in RU, giving it a unique ability to put cascading offensive pressure on an opponent. Moxie forces Pinsir's opponents to respond predictably or risk losing the match quickly as Pinsir picks up boosts and becomes unable to wallable. It requires significant support to be successful; if you're looking for a physical sweeper that you can throw on your team as an afterthought and be successful, Kabutops or Gallade would be a better choice. On the other hand, if you're looking to build a team around an extremely manly bug with the potential to steamroll healthy teams in just a few turns, give Pinsir a shot.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: X-Scissor
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Quick Attack
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The market for Swords Dance in RU might seem crowded, but Pinsir has plenty of perks that make it a lethal boosting sweeper. Above-average Speed gives Pinsir the advantage against the popular base 80 Speed group, and solid Defense allows it to brush off most priority moves. Bug-typing, despite all its defensive disadvantages, is a blessing offensively, as STAB X-Scissor slices through many of RU's top defensive Pokemon, including Tangrowth, Slowking, and Uxie. Earthquake is the coverage move that RU's other Bug-types wish they had, giving Pinsir super effective coverage against Qwilfish, Steelix, and Rhydon. The true magic of this set, however, is the combination of Quick Attack and Moxie. For most Pokemon, non-STAB Quick Attack is dismissed as too weak to be useful, but with Moxie, it becomes an excellent defense against revenge killers and is the key to Pinsir's success. After a Swords Dance boost, Pinsir can OHKO most of RU's best walls with X-Scissor or Earthquake. With Moxie kicking in and boosting Pinsir to +3, Quick Attack becomes powerful enough to OHKO most potential revenge killers with hazard support. Once it reaches +3, the list of Pokemon that can stop Pinsir from sweeping is short: Aerodactyl, Archeops, Durant, Emboar (with a Choice Scarf), Entei, Misdreavus, Quagsire, and Rotom. Unless your opponent has one of those Pokemon healthy, the game is over.</p>

    <p>Of course, the real trick is getting to +3 in the first place. Pinsir's best chance at setting up is by forcing out slow Pokemon such as Slowking and Lanturn. Against fast offensive teams, Pinsir probably won't have the opportunity to set up and is unlikely to singlehandedly 6-0 your opponent's team. However, it still has value in offensive matchups thanks to its Speed, power, and access to priority. Pinsir can OHKO Kabutops attempting to spin or pick off weakened Cinccino and Manectric with Quick Attack, and although a single Moxie boost usually won't be enough to sweep, it does put a lot of pressure on your opponent to play conservatively and predictably to avoid giving Pinsir any more boosts.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Here are some damage calculations showing how difficult Pinsir can be to wall at +2 and to revenge kill at +3:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/252+ Tangrowth: 110.6 - 131.2%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/88 Amoonguss: 99.5 - 117.6%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/124 Druddigon: 96.9 - 114.2%</li>
    <li>+1 Earthquake vs. 252/240+ Qwilfish: 119.2 - 140.1%</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 88/0 Eviolite Rhydon: 92.8 - 109.4% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 248/0 Escavalier: 84.5 - 99.7% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 252/220+ Steelix: 74.9 - 89% (31% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Absol: 83.8 - 98.9% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Galvantula: 80.8 - 95.4% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Manectric: 80.8 - 95.4% (56% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Moltres: 51.4 - 60.7% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Cinccino: 78 - 92.1% (OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Sceptile: 75.8 - 89.7% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Typhlosion: 62.3 - 73.4% (69% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Life Orb and an Adamant nature may sound like overkill at first, given that Pinsir will be boosting its Attack with Swords Dance and Moxie, but a look at the calculations above reveals that Pinsir really does need all the power it can get. Switching the item choice to a Lum Berry, or using a Jolly nature makes many of those the above OHKOs disappear, and if Pinsir can't OHKO its initial switch-in or revenge-killer, its sweep will end before it begins. Luckily, Kabutops and Gallade usually run Adamant natures, so Adamant Pinsir will still outspeed them, although it will unfortunately miss out on beating Smeargle and Timid Mesprit. Stone Edge is a tempting move to add to this set in order to hit Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Rotom, but most of its potential targets are faster than Pinsir, so it wouldn't prevent them from stopping Pinsir's sweep; it's certainly not worth giving up Earthquake's coverage against physical walls or Quick Attack's priority. Close Combat would normally be an appealing alternative to Earthquake, but sadly it is illegal with Quick Attack, so it is not recommended on this set.</p>

    <p>As the calculations above show, Pinsir relies heavily on entry hazard support. Stealth Rock is absolutely essential for wearing down Moltres and Pinsir's other Fire- and Flying-type checks, but Spikes are also very valuable, especially for bringing faster Pokemon into Quick Attack's range. If you can consistently get multiple layers of Spikes up, that extra damage can also make up for the power loss if you choose to use a Jolly nature. Qwilfish is a fantastic teammate for Pinsir, as it can set up Spikes, spread paralysis to help Pinsir beat faster Pokemon that Quick Attack can't OHKO, and check most of the Pokemon that give Pinsir trouble. Uxie and Druddigon are also good teammates that can spread paralysis to additional targets and can set up Stealth Rock as well. Spiritomb and Escavalier provide helpful Pursuit support to take out opposing Rotom, Misdreavus, and Mesprit. Finally, Pinsir greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support. It isn't strictly necessary, as Pinsir should ideally only need to switch in one time per match to sweep, but Kabutops has excellent synergy with Pinsir, so it's usually worth including.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: X-Scissor
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Close Combat
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Pinsir's decent Speed, excellent Attack, and great coverage moves make it an effective revenge-killer when holding a Choice Scarf. It can OHKO many of RU's most popular sweepers, including Kabutops, Sceptile, Entei, Cinccino, Sigilyph, and Moltres, and its solid Defense allows it to survive powerful priority attacks such as Choice Band Entei's ExtremeSpeed or +2 Life Orb Kabutops's Aqua Jet. Moxie is the cherry on top of this set, allowing Pinsir to put heavy pressure on the opponent and potentially achieve a late-game sweep. However, beware of focusing too much on trying to get a Moxie sweep. Without a boosting item or the ability to switch between coverage moves, Pinsir is quite easy to wall, even at +1, so it usually won't have any shot at sweeping until late in the game when the opponent's team is significantly weakened. This can make it tempting to try to keep Pinsir healthy for the end of the match in order to achieve that sweep. Unfortunately, no matter how healthy it is, there will be many matches when Pinsir simply won't be able to sweep, so keeping it in reserve all match will result in a wasted teamslot and put you at a disadvantage. If your opponent's team looks particularly vulnerable to a Pinsir sweep, go for it, but otherwise you should play Pinsir like any other revenge killer: send it out whenever you need to KO or force out a dangerous opponent.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>240 Speed EVs allow Pinsir to outspeed +1 Modest Magmortar and +2 Adamant Aggron. The 16 HP EVs actually do serve a useful purpose: they guarantee that Pinsir will survive a super effective Hidden Power from Life Orb Sceptile if it hasn't taken any previous damage, meaning Pinsir can revenge kill Sceptile even if Sceptile has a Substitute up. Pinsir needs an Adamant nature to consistently get the KOs it should; Entei, Sigilyph, and Emboar will usually survive a hit from Jolly Pinsir even after Stealth Rock, but all three will usually fall to Adamant Pinsir. You should only consider using Jolly if you have multiple layers of hazards to make up for the loss of power and you need Pinsir to outspeed Accelgor and positive-natured +1 base 80s such as Jolly Choice Scarf Medicham and Jolly Weak Armor Kabutops. Speaking of Kabutops, it is an excellent partner for has great synergy with this set. As a revenge killer, Pinsir will want to switch in several times during the match without being crippled by Stealth Rock damage; Kabutops can reliably spin away hazards and has great synergy with Pinsir. Poliwrath is a hard stop to both Pinsir and Kabutops, so make sure you bring something that can beat it, such as Rotom, Sigilyph, or Uxie.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Pinsir can use an all-out attacking set with Life Orb or Choice Band to do a lot of damage to slow or paralyzed teams. However, it has difficulty switching in safely, and faster Pokemon will easily force it out, so this type of set doesn't really play to Pinsir's strengths. A Substitute + 3 attacks set with a Salac Berry can sweep late-game if the opponent's physical walls and priority users have been eliminated, but it will struggle to accomplish anything at all before those two conditions are met. Superpower and the uncommon Storm Throw are Pinsir's best legal options for Fighting-type coverage on sets that use Quick Attack, but both are completely inferior to Close Combat in any other situation. Pinsir can set up Stealth Rock if absolutely necessary, but it's not very good in a supporting role and rarely has moveslots to spare. Toxic is Pinsir's best option against certain bulky Pokemon like Misdreavus and Quagsire. Finally, Hyper Cutter and Mold Breaker are both decent abilities; Mold Breaker in particular is intriguing, as it allows Pinsir to beat one of its biggest counters in Rotom (although Mold Breaker announces itself when Pinsir comes into the match, so good players won't switch Rotom in). Unfortunately, Pinsir is simply a mediocre Pokemon without Moxie. If you're using Pinsir with one of its other abilities, you'd almost certainly be better off using another Pokemon like Kabutops, Durant, Gallade, or Entei in its place.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Quagsire and Misdreavus are the safest counters to Pinsir;. Misdreavus resists or is immune to most of Pinsir's attacks, has excellent physical bulk with Eviolite, and can burn Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp, while Quagsire ignores Pinsir's Moxie boosts with Unaware and can simply stall it out with Recover. All other counters depend on which set Pinsir is running. Rotom and Aerodactyl are excellent answers to the Swords Dance set, but neither can switch into Stone Edge from the Choice Scarf set. Poliwrath and Alomomola are hard stops to the Choice Scarf set, but Poliwrath takes heavy damage from the Swords Dance set and can only phaze Pinsir with Circle Throw, while Alomomola becomes set-up bait as it is forced into a predictable Wish + Protect cycle. Faster Choice Scarf users that can survive Quick Attack make are good revenge killers if Pinsir is weakened, but most of them won't be able to OHKO a healthy Pinsir without a STAB super effective attack; for example, Choice Scarf Rotom-C does a maximum of 78% to Pinsir. In general, the most important thing is to prevent Pinsir from boosting. Avoid switching in slower Pokemon that give it a chance to set up or weakened Pokemon that it can KO for a free Moxie boost. Without boosts, Pinsir is just another powerful physical attacker that any good team should already be able to handle.</p>
  19. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Thanks for the check Chris. I made some of the changes but disagreed with others. PM me if you're curious.
  20. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,237
    am check (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>On a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being the coolest, Pinsir scores at least a 12. Besides its fantastic design, Pinsir also boasts a fearsome base 125 Attack, above-average Speed, STAB X-Scissor to hit many of RU's walls super effectively, and powerful coverage moves such as Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Close Combat. Throw that all together and you have a dangerous offensive Pokemon. Unfortunately for Pinsir, "dangerous offensive Pokemon" are a common sight in RU, and Pinsir's limited switch-in opportunities and lack of a powerful STAB move have made it difficult to justify using over other physical sweepers like, (AC) such as Kabutops, Gallade, and Durant. In fact, there's only one thing that really makes Pinsir worth considering over more standard alternatives: Moxie. Pinsir is the only viable Pokemon with Moxie in RU, giving it athe unique ability to put cascadonstantly increasing offensive pressure on ancascading just doesn't work here on the opponent. Moxie forces Pinsir's opponents to respond predictably or risk losing the match quickly as Pinsir picks up boosts and becomes unwallable. It requires a significant amount of support to be successful you're almost certainly referring to the amount, not the support itself; if you're looking for a physical sweeper that you can throw on your team as an afterthought and be successful, Kabutops or Gallade would be a better choice. On the other hand, if you're looking to build a team around an extremely manly bBug-type tbh I'd put beetle here but it's not my overview flavor with the potential to steamroll healthy teams in just a few turns, give Pinsir a shot.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: X-Scissor
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Quick Attack
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The market for Swords Dance in RU might seem crowded, but Pinsir has plenty of perks that make it a lethal boosting sweeper worth considering. Above-average Speed gives Pinsir the advantage against the popular base 80 Speed group, and solid Defense allows it to brush off most priority moves. Bug- typing, despite all its defensive disadvantages, is a blessing offensively, as STAB X-Scissor slices through many of RU's top defensive Pokemon, including Tangrowth, Slowking, and Uxie. Earthquake is the coverage move that RU's other Bug-types wish they had, giving Pinsir super effective coverage against Qwilfish, Steelix, and Rhydon. The true magic of this set, however, is the combination of Quick Attack and Moxie. For most Pokemon, non-STAB Quick Attack is dismissed as too weak to be useful, but with Moxie, it becomes an excellent defense against revenge killers and is the key to Pinsir's success. After a Swords Dance boost, Pinsir can OHKO most of RU's best walls with X-Scissor or Earthquake. With Moxie kicking in and boosting Pinsir to +3 after its first kill, Quick Attack becomes powerful enough to OHKO most potential revenge killers with entry hazard support. Once it reaches +3, the list of Pokemon that can stop Pinsir from sweeping is short: Aerodactyl, Archeops, Durant, Emboar (with a Choice Scarf), Entei, Misdreavus, Quagsire, and Rotom. Unless your opponent has one of those Pokemon healthy, the game is over.</p>

    <p>Of course, the real trick is getting to +3 in the first place. Pinsir's best chance at setting up is by forcing out slow Pokemon, (AC) such as Slowking and Lanturn. Against fast offensive teams, Pinsir probably won't have the opportunity to set up and is unlikely to single-handedly 6-0 your opponent's team. However, it still has value in offensive matchups thanks to its Speed, power, and access to priority. Pinsir can OHKO Kabutops attempting to spin or pick off weakened Cinccino and Manectric with Quick Attack, and although a single Moxie boost usually won't be enough to sweep, it does put a lot of pressure on your opponent to play conservatively and thus predictably to avoid giving Pinsir any more boosts. maybe "to avoid letting Pinsir obtain any more boosts?" idk, this wording is misleading.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Here are some damage calculations showing how difficult Pinsir can be to wall at +2 and to revenge kill at +3:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/252+ Tangrowth: 110.6 - 131.2%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/88 Amoonguss: 99.5 - 117.6%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/124 Druddigon: 96.9 - 114.2%</li>
    <li>+1 Earthquake vs. 252/240+ Qwilfish: 119.2 - 140.1%</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 88/0 Eviolite Rhydon: 92.8 - 109.4% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 248/0 Escavalier: 84.5 - 99.7% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 252/220+ Steelix: 74.9 - 89% (31% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Absol: 83.8 - 98.9% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Galvantula: 80.8 - 95.4% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Manectric: 80.8 - 95.4% (56% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Moltres: 51.4 - 60.7% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Cinccino: 78 - 92.1% (OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Sceptile: 75.8 - 89.7% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Typhlosion: 62.3 - 73.4% (69% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Life Orb and an Adamant nature mayight sound like overkill at first, don't use may (it's too vague) always use might or can(RC) given that Pinsir will be boosting its Attack with Swords Dance and Moxie, but a look at the calculations above reveals that Pinsir really does need all the power it can get. Switching to a Lum Berry or a Jolly nature makes many of those OHKOs disappear, and if Pinsir can't OHKO its initial switch-in or the Pokemon trying to revenge- killer it, its sweep will end before it begins. bad wording there Luckily, Kabutops and Gallade usually run Adamant natures, so Adamant Pinsir will still outspeed them, although it will unfortunately miss out on beating Smeargle and Timid Mesprit. Stone Edge is a tempting move to add to this set in order to hit Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Rotom, but most of its potential targets are faster than Pinsir, so it wouldn't prevent them from stopping Pinsir's sweep; it's certainly not worth giving up Earthquake's coverage against physical walls or Quick Attack's priority. Close Combat would normally be an appealing alternative to Earthquake, but sadly it is illegal with Quick Attack, so it is not recommended on this set.</p>

    <p>As the calculations above show, Pinsir relies heavily on entry hazard support. Stealth Rock is absolutely essential for wearing down Moltres and Pinsir's other Fire- and Flying-type checks, but Spikes are also very valuable, especially for bringing faster Pokemon into Quick Attack's range. If you can consistently get multiple layers of Spikes up, that extra damage can also make up for the power loss if you choose to use a Jolly nature. Qwilfish is a fantastic teammate for Pinsir, as it can set up Spikes, spread paralysis to help Pinsir beat faster Pokemon that Quick Attack can't OHKO, and check most of the Pokemon that give Pinsir trouble. Uxie and Druddigon are also good teammates that can spread paralysis to additional targets and set up Stealth Rock. Spiritomb and Escavalier provide helpful Pursuit support to take out opposing Rotom, Misdreavus, and Mesprit. Finally, Pinsir greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support. It isn't strictly necessary, as Pinsir should ideally only need to switch in one time per match to sweep, but Kabutops has excellent synergy with Pinsir, so it's usually worth including.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: X-Scissor
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Close Combat
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Pinsir's decent Speed, excellent Attack, and great coverage moves make it an effective revenge- killer when holding a Choice Scarf. It can OHKO many of RU's most popular sweepers, including Kabutops, Sceptile, Entei, Cinccino, Sigilyph, and Moltres, and its solid Defense allows it to survive powerful priority attacks, (AC) such as Choice Band Entei's ExtremeSpeed orand +2 Life Orb Kabutops's Aqua Jet. Moxie is the cherry on top of this set, allowing Pinsir to put heavy pressure on the opponent and potentially achieve a late-game sweep. However, beware of focusing too much on trying to get a Moxie sweep. Without a boosting item or the ability to switch betweenmoves, it's switching moves not coverage moves that matters, and between limits you to two options Pinsir is quite easy to wall, even at +1, so it usually won't have any shot at sweeping until late in the game when the opponent's team is significantly weakened. This can make it tempting to try to keep Pinsir healthy for the end of the match in order to achieve that sweep. Unfortunately, no matter how healthy it is, there will be many matches whenre Pinsir simply won't be able to sweep, so keeping it in reserve all match will result in a wasted teamslot and put you at a disadvantage. If your opponent's team looks particularly vulnerable to a Pinsir sweep, go for it, but otherwise you should play Pinsir like any other revenge killer: send it out whenever you need to KO or force out a dangerous opponent.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>240 Speed EVs allow Pinsir to outspeed +1 Modest Magmortar and +2 Adamant Aggron. The 16 HP EVs actually do serve a useful purpose: they guarantee that Pinsir will survive a super effective Hidden Power from Life Orb Sceptile if it hasn't taken any previous damage, meaning Pinsir can revenge kill Sceptile even if Sceptile has a Substitute up. Pinsir needs an Adamant nature to consistently get the KOs it should; Entei, Sigilyph, and Emboar will usually survive a hit from Jolly Pinsir even after Stealth Rock, but all three will usually fall to Adamant Pinsir. You should only consider using Jolly if you have multiple layers of entry hazards on the opponent's side of the field to make up for the loss of power and you need Pinsir to outspeed Accelgor and positive-natured +1 base 80s, (AC) such as Jolly Choice Scarf Medicham and Jolly Weak Armor Kabutops. Speaking of Kabutops, it is an excellent partner for this set. As a revenge killer, Pinsir will want to switch in several times during the match without being crippled by Stealth Rock damage; Kabutops can reliably spin away hazards and has great synergy with Pinsir. Poliwrath is a hard stop to both Pinsir and Kabutops, so make sure you bring something that can beat it, such as Rotom, Sigilyph, or Uxie.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Pinsir can use an all-out attacking set with Life Orb or Choice Band to do a lot of damage to slow or paralyzed teams. However, it has difficulty switching in safely, and faster Pokemon will easily force it out, so this type of set doesn't really play to Pinsir's strengths. A Substitute + 3 attacks set with a Salac Berry can sweep late-game if the opponent's physical walls and priority users have been eliminated, but it will struggle to accomplish anything at all before those two conditions are met. Superpower and the uncommon Storm Throw are Pinsir's best legal options for Fighting-type coverage on sets that use Quick Attack, but both are completely inferior to Close Combat in any other situationwise. Pinsir can set up Stealth Rock if absolutely necessary, but it's not very good in a supporting role and rarely has moveslots to spare. Toxic is Pinsir's best option against certain bulky Pokemon like, (AC) such as Misdreavus and Quagsire. Finally, Hyper Cutter and Mold Breaker are both decent abilities; Mold Breaker in particular is intriguing, as it allows Pinsir to beat one of its biggest counters in Rotom (although Mold Breaker announces itself when Pinsir comes into the match, so good players won't switch Rotom in). Unfortunately, Pinsir is simply a mediocre Pokemon without Moxie. If you're using Pinsir with one of its other abilities, you'd almost certainly be better off using another Pokemon like Kabutops, Durant, Gallade, or Entei in its place.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Quagsire and Misdreavus are the safest counters to Pinsir; Misdreavus resists or is immune to most of Pinsir's attacks, has excellent physical bulk with Eviolite, and can burn Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp, while Quagsire ignores Pinsir's Moxie boosts with Unaware and can simply stall it out with Recover. All other counters depend on which set Pinsir is running. Rotom and Aerodactyl are excellent answers to the Swords Dance set, but neither can switch into Stone Edge from the Choice Scarf set. Poliwrath and Alomomola are hard stops to the Choice Scarf set, but Poliwrath takes heavy damage from the Swords Dance set-boosted attacks and can only phaze Pinsir with Circle Throw in return, while Alomomola becomes set-up bait as it is forced into a predictable Wish + Protect cycle. Faster Choice Scarf users that can survive Quick Attack are good revenge killers if Pinsir is weakened, but most of them won't be able to OHKO a healthy Pinsir without a STAB super effective attack; for example, Choice Scarf Rotom-C does a maximum of 78% to Pinsir. In general, the most important thing is to prevent Pinsir from boosting. Avoid switching in slower Pokemon that give it a chance to set up or weakened Pokemon that it can KO for a free Moxie boost. Without boosts, Pinsir is just another powerful physical attacker that any good team should already be able to handle.</p>

    like vs. such as: Use the former only for comparisons. Otherwise, it is just an inferior version of such as.
  21. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    There are some good catches there, but many of those changes are adding words to clarify things that were already clear, and in the process making the analysis read less naturally. And since I am really tired of seeing this in particular:

    Like is also perfectly acceptable in cases where you are giving a general description and then making it more specific by using "like" to mean "that are similar to". There is a difference in meaning between the following two sentences:

    Typhlosion cannot beat Water-types like Slowking and Lanturn.
    Typhlosion cannot beat Water-types, such as Slowking and Lanturn.

    The first one is true. Typhlosion can't beat Water-types that are similar to Slowking and Lanturn. The second one is false, because it says Typhlosion can't beat Water-types at all, and just lists Slowking and Lanturn as examples of Water-types. Typhlosion can beat Omastar and Quagsire and Magikarp easily, though.

    The same thing applies here:

    "[...] have made it difficult to justify using [Pinsir] over other physical sweepers like Kabutops, Gallade, and Durant."
    "[...] have made it difficult to justify using [Pinsir] over other physical sweepers, such as Kabutops, Gallade, and Durant."

    It is not difficult to justify using Pinsir over Archeops or SD Sceptile or Guts Raticate. It is difficult to justify it specifically over physical sweepers that are similar to Kabutops and Gallade and Durant in having high Attack, powerful STAB moves, and the ability to switch in safely on a decent portion of the metagame.

    When you get in the habit of auto-correcting things like "like" vs. "such as", you risk changing the meaning of people's writing accidentally. Don't look for opportunities to change things when GPing. Only change things that you're sure are unclear or wrong.
  22. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,237
    that noted and:

    just saying~
  23. Honko

    Honko
    is a Programmeris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Oh yeah, that was a good catch that I missed. It's hard to see a crossed out hyphen. :)
  24. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,074
    add
    remove
    comments

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>On a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being the coolest, Pinsir scores at least a 12. Besides its fantastic design, Pinsir also boasts a fearsome base 125 Attack, above-average Speed, STAB X-Scissor to hit many of RU's walls super effectively, and powerful coverage moves such as Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Close Combat. Throw that all together and you have a dangerous offensive Pokemon. Unfortunately for Pinsir, "dangerous offensive Pokemon" are a common sight in RU, and Pinsir's limited switch-in opportunities and lack of a powerful STAB move have made it difficult to justify using over other physical sweepers like Kabutops, Gallade, and Durant. In fact, there's only one thing that really makes Pinsir worth considering over more standard alternatives: Moxie. Pinsir is the only viable Pokemon with Moxie in RU, giving it a unique ability to put constantly increasing offensive pressure on its opponent. Moxie forces Pinsir's opponents to respond predictably or risk losing the match quickly as Pinsir picks up boosts and becomes unwallable. It requires a significant amount of support to be successful; if you're looking for a physical sweeper that you can throw on your team as an afterthought and be successful, Kabutops or Gallade would be a better choice. On the other hand, if you're looking to build a team around an extremely manly bug with the potential to steamroll healthy teams in just a few turns, give Pinsir a shot.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: X-Scissor
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Quick Attack
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The market for Swords Dance in RU might seem crowded, but Pinsir has plenty of perks that make it a lethal boosting sweeper. Above-average Speed gives Pinsir the advantage against the popular base 80 Speed group, and a solid Defense stat allows it to brush off most priority moves. Bug typing, despite all its defensive disadvantages, is a blessing offensively, as STAB X-Scissor slices through many of RU's top defensive Pokemon, including Tangrowth, Slowking, and Uxie. Earthquake is the coverage move that RU's other Bug-types wish they had, giving Pinsir super effective coverage against Qwilfish, Steelix, and Rhydon. The true magic of this set, however, is the combination of Quick Attack and Moxie. For most Pokemon, non-STAB Quick Attack is dismissed as too weak to be useful, but with Moxie, it becomes an excellent defense against revenge killers and is the key to Pinsir's success. After a Swords Dance boost, Pinsir can OHKO most of RU's best walls with X-Scissor or Earthquake. With Moxie kicking in and boosting Pinsir to +3, Quick Attack becomes powerful enough to OHKO most potential revenge killers with hazard support. Once it reaches +3, the list of Pokemon that can stop Pinsir from sweeping is short: Aerodactyl, Archeops, Durant, Emboar (with a Choice Scarf), Entei, Misdreavus, Quagsire, and Rotom. Unless your opponent has one of those Pokemon healthy, the game is over.</p>

    <p>Of course, the real trick is getting to +3 in the first place. Pinsir's best chance at setting up is by forcing out slow Pokemon like Slowking and Lanturn. Against fast offensive teams, Pinsir probably won't have the opportunity to set up and is unlikely to single-handedly 6-0 your opponent's team. However, it still has value in offensive match-ups thanks to its Speed, power, and access to priority. Pinsir can OHKO Kabutops attempting to spin or pick off weakened Cinccino and Manectric with Quick Attack, and although a single Moxie boost usually won't be enough to sweep, it does put a lot of pressure on your opponent to play conservatively and predictably to avoid giving Pinsir the opportunity to pick up any more boosts.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Here are some damage calculations showing how difficult Pinsir can be to wall at +2 and to revenge kill at +3:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/252+ Tangrowth: 110.6 - 131.2%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/88 Amoonguss: 99.5 - 117.6%</li>
    <li>+2 X-Scissor vs. 252/124 Druddigon: 96.9 - 114.2%</li>
    <li>+1 Earthquake vs. 252/240+ Qwilfish: 119.2 - 140.1%</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 88/0 Eviolite Rhydon: 92.8 - 109.4% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 248/0 Escavalier: 84.5 - 99.7% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+2 Earthquake vs. 252/220+ Steelix: 74.9 - 89% (31% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Absol: 83.8 - 98.9% (75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Galvantula: 80.8 - 95.4% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Manectric: 80.8 - 95.4% (56% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Moltres: 51.4 - 60.7% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Cinccino: 78 - 92.1% (OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Sceptile: 75.8 - 89.7% (94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    <li>+3 Quick Attack vs. 0/4 Typhlosion: 62.3 - 73.4% (69% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Life Orb and an Adamant nature might sound like overkill at first, given that Pinsir will be boosting its Attack with Swords Dance and Moxie, but a look at the calculations above reveals that Pinsir really does need all the power it can get. Switching to a Lum Berry or a Jolly nature makes many of those OHKOs disappear, and if Pinsir can't OHKO its initial switch-in or potential revenge killer, its sweep will end before it begins. Luckily, Kabutops and Gallade usually run Adamant natures, so Adamant Pinsir will still outspeed them, although it will unfortunately miss out on beating Smeargle and Timid Mesprit. Stone Edge is a tempting move to add to this set in order to hit Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Moltres, and Rotom, but most of its potential targets are faster than Pinsir, so it wouldn't prevent them from stopping Pinsir's sweep; it's certainly not worth giving up Earthquake's coverage against physical walls or Quick Attack's priority. Close Combat would normally be an appealing alternative to Earthquake, but sadly it is illegal with Quick Attack, so it is not recommended on this set.</p>

    <p>As the calculations above show, Pinsir relies heavily on entry hazard support. Stealth Rock is absolutely essential for wearing down Moltres and Pinsir's other Fire- and Flying-type checks, but Spikes are also very valuable, especially for bringing faster Pokemon into Quick Attack's range. If you can consistently get multiple layers of Spikes up, that extra damage can also make up for the power loss if you choose to use a Jolly nature. Qwilfish is a fantastic teammate for Pinsir, as it can set up Spikes, spread paralysis to help Pinsir beat faster Pokemon that Quick Attack can't OHKO, and check most of the Pokemon that give Pinsir trouble. Uxie and Druddigon are also good teammates that can spread paralysis to additional targets and set up Stealth Rock. Spiritomb and Escavalier provide helpful Pursuit support to take out opposing Rotom, Misdreavus, and Mesprit. Finally, Pinsir greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support. It isn't strictly necessary, as Pinsir should ideally only need to switch in one time per match to sweep, but Kabutops has excellent synergy with Pinsir, so it's usually worth including.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: X-Scissor
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Close Combat
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Pinsir's decent Speed, excellent Attack, and great coverage moves make it an effective revenge killer when holding a Choice Scarf. It can OHKO many of RU's most popular sweepers, including Kabutops, Sceptile, Entei, Cinccino, Sigilyph, and Moltres, and its solid Defense allows it to survive powerful priority attacks, including Choice Band Entei's ExtremeSpeed and +2 Life Orb Kabutops's Aqua Jet. Moxie is the cherry on top of this set, allowing Pinsir to put heavy pressure on the opponent and potentially achieve a late-game sweep. However, beware of focusing too much on trying to get a Moxie sweep. Without a boosting item or the ability to switch moves, Pinsir is quite easy to wall, even at +1, so it usually won't have any shot at sweeping until late in the game when the opponent's team is significantly weakened. This can make it tempting to try to keep Pinsir healthy for the end of the match in order to achieve that sweep. Unfortunately, no matter how healthy it is, there will be many matches when Pinsir simply won't be able to sweep, so keeping it in reserve all match will result in a wasted teamslot and put you at a disadvantage. If your opponent's team looks particularly vulnerable to a Pinsir sweep, go for it, but otherwise you should play Pinsir like any other revenge killer: send it out whenever you need to KO or force out a dangerous opponent.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>240 Speed EVs allow Pinsir to outspeed +1 Modest Magmortar and +2 Adamant Aggron. The 16 HP EVs actually do serve a useful purpose: they guarantee that Pinsir will survive a super effective Hidden Power from Life Orb Sceptile if it hasn't taken any previous damage, meaning Pinsir can revenge kill Sceptile even if Sceptile has a Substitute up. Pinsir needs an Adamant nature to consistently get the KOs it should; Entei, Sigilyph, and Emboar will usually survive a hit from Jolly Pinsir even after Stealth Rock, but all three will usually fall to Adamant Pinsir. You should only consider using Jolly if you have multiple layers of hazards to make up for the loss of power and you need Pinsir to outspeed Accelgor and positive-natured +1 base 80s, such as Jolly Choice Scarf Medicham and Jolly Weak Armor Kabutops. Speaking of Kabutops, it is an excellent partner for this set. As a revenge killer, Pinsir will want to switch in several times during the match without being crippled by Stealth Rock damage; Kabutops can reliably spin away hazards and has great synergy with Pinsir. Poliwrath is a hard stop to both Pinsir and Kabutops, so make sure you bring something that can beat it, such as Rotom, Sigilyph, or Uxie.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Pinsir can use an all-out attacking set with Life Orb or Choice Band to do a lot of damage to slow or paralyzed teams. However, it has difficulty switching in safely, and faster Pokemon will easily force it out, so this type of set doesn't really play to Pinsir's strengths. A Substitute + 3 attacks set with a Salac Berry can sweep late-game if the opponent's physical walls and priority users have been eliminated, but it will struggle to accomplish anything at all before those two conditions are met. Superpower and the uncommon Storm Throw are Pinsir's best legal options for Fighting-type coverage on sets that use Quick Attack, but both are completely inferior to Close Combat in any other situation. Pinsir can set up Stealth Rock if absolutely necessary, but it's not very good in a supporting role and rarely has moveslots to spare. Toxic is Pinsir's best option against certain bulky Pokemon like Misdreavus and Quagsire. Finally, Hyper Cutter and Mold Breaker are both decent abilities; Mold Breaker in particular is intriguing, as it allows Pinsir to beat one of its biggest counters in Rotom (although Mold Breaker announces itself when Pinsir comes into the match, so good players won't switch Rotom in). Unfortunately, Pinsir is simply a mediocre Pokemon without Moxie. If you're using Pinsir with one of its other abilities, you'd almost certainly be better off using another Pokemon like Kabutops, Durant, Gallade, or Entei in its place.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Quagsire and Misdreavus are the safest counters to Pinsir; Misdreavus resists or is immune to most of Pinsir's attacks, has excellent physical bulk with Eviolite, and can burn Pinsir with Will-O-Wisp, while Quagsire ignores Pinsir's Moxie boosts with Unaware and can simply stall it out with Recover. All other counters depend on which set Pinsir is running. Rotom and Aerodactyl are excellent answers to the Swords Dance set, but neither can switch into Stone Edge from the Choice Scarf set. Poliwrath and Alomomola are hard stops to the Choice Scarf set, but Poliwrath takes heavy damage from the Swords Dance set and can only phaze Pinsir with Circle Throw, while Alomomola becomes set-up bait as it is forced into a predictable Wish + Protect cycle. Faster Choice Scarf users that can survive Quick Attack are good revenge killers if Pinsir is weakened, but most of them won't be able to OHKO a healthy Pinsir without a STAB super effective attack; for example, Choice Scarf Rotom-C does a maximum of 78% to Pinsir with Thunderbolt. In general, the most important thing is to prevent Pinsir from boosting. Avoid switching in slower Pokemon that give it a chance to set up or weakened Pokemon that it can KO for a free Moxie boost. Without boosts, Pinsir is just another powerful physical attacker that any good team should already be able to handle.</p>


    honko is still a nub let it be known

    o and 9.9

    [gp]2/2[/gp]

    it was nice reading a particularly good analysis again, i was beginning to miss these, also i'm counting the other am checks as another stamp so we're done here imo anyway
  25. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,866
    [​IMG]
    GP Approved 3/2

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)