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OU Pinsir [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Hollywood, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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    Overview
    ########

    With an incredibly powerful Mega Evolution, former NU threat Pinsir has soared through the tiers and now finds itself sitting happily in OU. While normal Pinsir is unusable in OU, with such high power, an above average Speed tier, and a fantastic ability in Aerilate, Mega Pinsir is more than good enough to see use in the metagame. With Aerilate-boosted Quick Attack, Mega Pinsir is also one of only two Pokemon to receive Flying-type priority, which allows it to check a variety of threats and helps it to Mega Evolve more easily. Unfortunately, with its Bug / Flying typing, Mega Pinsir is 4x weak to Rock, which means that it loses half of its health upon switching into Stealth Rock, but with a large variety of entry hazard removers in OU, this usually isn't as large of a problem as you might think it would be. Finally, Mega Pinsir is fairly predictable, as it is nearly always going to run a boosting move, both Quick Attack and a reliable STAB move, and Earthquake for coverage, leaving it with little room for other coverage moves.

    Swords Dance
    ########
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Quick Attack
    move 3: Return
    move 4: Earthquake
    ability: Hyper Cutter / Moxie
    item: Pinsirite
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    With Swords Dance, Mega Pinsir uses its fairly unique typing and good natural bulk to try to set up and sweep the opposing team. Thus, Swords Dance is a necessity for Mega Pinsir, and it works very well with Quick Attack. After the Aerilate boost, Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack hits roughly 78 Base Power, and after a Sword Dance, it can be used to take out most of the Pokemon that would otherwise be able to revenge kill it. Return is an incredibly powerful STAB attack for Mega Pinsir that has no drawbacks. Finally, Earthquake is used to take on the Steel-, Rock-, and Electric-type Pokemon that could otherwise take a hit from Mega Pinsir. Most notably, Earthquake is able to OHKO Aegislash in its Shield forme at +2.

    Set Details
    ========

    Pinsir should never be used seriously in OU without its Mega Evolution, so Pinsirite is the obvious choice for an item. EVs are standard for a physical sweeper, maximizing its Attack and Speed, though an Adamant nature can used instead of Jolly in order to OHKO standard Gliscor at +2 with Return and Latios at +2 with Quick Attack after Stealth Rock damage. Hyper Cutter is the most reliable choice for an ability on Pinsir in its regular state, as it keeps Intimidate users such as Landorus-T from lowering its Attack on the switch. Moxie is another viable choice to pick off a weakened foe before Mega Evolving in order to receive an Attack boost.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Pinsir should usually only come into battle late-game after most of its checks and counters have been sufficiently weakened or knocked out. Still, it might be advantageous to bring it in earlier on into the match in order to Mega Evolve and pick off a weakened opponent with Quick Attack. Because its regular state has only base 85 Speed, it's best to Mega Evolve against something it can set up on or something that it can revenge kill with its Quick Attack. Mega Evolving is usually only difficult against more offensive teams that can keep up offensive pressure. Against more defensive teams, you can Mega Evolve Pinsir earlier on in hopes of wallbreaking with it. Thanks to its good physical bulk, Mega Pinsir can often set up against physical attackers that do not carry a super effective coverage move, including some variants of Azumarill, Air Balloon Excadrill, and even Bisharp. However, it's usually going to be easier to set up on a forced switch.

    Team Options
    ========

    Some of Mega Pinsir's best partners are things that defeat its checks and counters. A good example of this is Choice Specs Gothitelle, which can trap and KO all of Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Rotom-W, and Hippowdon and heavily damage or even remove Zapdos. Another good partner for this reason is Assault Vest Conkeldurr, which can easily switch into Rotom-W and Air Balloon Heatran, as it benefits from being burned, takes little damage from their attacks, and can threaten them with its Fighting STAB in return. A Rapid Spin or Defog user is another necessary partner, as Mega Pinsir relies a lot on its bulk in order to tank faster priority attacks and neutral hits while it sets up. Excadrill is a good partner, as it can use Rapid Spin and deal massive damage to Rotom-W with its Mold Breaker Earthquake, and Life Orb Latias can use Defog and Healing Wish to support Mega Pinsir, while also offering a good switch into Rotom-W, Thundurus, and Zapdos. Keldeo is another good partner, as it can come in on Rock-, Ice-, and Fire-type attacks very easily, and it threatens all of Mega Pinsir's best checks. Finally, Tyranitar is a great answer to Mega Pinsir's offensive checks. With its great bulk, Tyranitar can come in on anything that Mega Manectric and Talonflame have to offer and deal major damage to them with Pursuit as they switch out. Tyranitar can also check Thundurus and Raikou, though it will need to watch out for Superpower and Aura Sphere, respectively.

    Other Options
    ########

    Close Combat is another option for a coverage move on Mega Pinsir, as it hits Steel- and Rock-types while also being able to do solid damage to Rotom-W. However, not being able to touch Aegislash is a very bad thing, and the Defense and Special Defense drops from Close Combat greatly compromise Mega Pinsir's longevity. Thrash can also be used for an incredibly powerful STAB attack, but because Return is already very strong without any negative side effects, it is often the better option. Mold Breaker is also viable on Pinsir to hit Rotom-W with Earthquake before Mega Evolving, but this is fairly predictable because it shows the Mold Breaker message upon entering. Bulk Up is usable, but Swords Dance's +2 Attack boost is almost always more beneficial than a +1 Defense boost. Facade would be a decent option on Mega Pinsir if it had to room to fit it on its set, as it would keep it from being useless should it become burned, but with each of its four moves being as important as they are, it should very rarely see use. Feint can also be used over Quick Attack in order to hit Talonflame and Weavile, as well as slower Extreme Speed users such as Dragonite and Lucario before they can hit Pinsir, but the lower Base Power makes this less viable than Quick Attack in most situations.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Resistant Walls**: It takes a very specific type of wall to stop Mega Pinsir in its tracks. Pretty much the only Pokemon that keep it from sweeping need to resist both its STAB and its coverage move. Specifically, Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Skarmory are some of the best answers to Mega Pinsir because they need to be especially weakened if Mega Pinsir hopes to take them out.

    **Revenge Killers**: Faster priority users or faster Pokemon that resist Quick Attack are solid checks to Mega Pinsir. Talonflame is about as good of an offensive check to Mega Pinsir as you can hope for, as it can outspeed Mega Pinsir and OHKO it with Gale Wings Brave Bird even when using an Adamant nature. Weavile is also faster and can use Ice Shard to deal massive damage to Mega Pinsir. Although it isn't a damaging move, Thundurus is able to utilize its faster Prankster Thunder Wave in order to cripple Mega Pinsir, and it can even take one boosted Quick Attack and OHKO with Thunderbolt. Mamoswine has enough natural bulk to take a boosted Quick Attack and strike back with its own priority Ice Shard. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can outspeed and KO Mega Pinsir, and it even has the bulk to tank an unboosted Earthquake if it happens to miss Stone Edge. Similarly, Raikou and Mega Manectric can both outspeed and revenge kill Mega Pinsir without fearing its Quick Attack.

    **Stealth Rock**: Though Stealth Rock is not quite as solid of a method of checking Mega Pinsir, if you are able to keep it up throughout the match, Mega Pinsir will be much easier to take out. For offensive teams, this means setting Stealth Rock and keeping up offensive pressure against the opponent throughout the match in order to prevent them from using Rapid Spin or Defog. For more defensive teams, you should either try to take out the opponent's entry hazard remover or keep setting up Stealth Rock throughout the match.
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
    Raseri likes this.
  2. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Mention Thrash either on the set or OO. +2 Thrash does a truckload to the current meta.
  3. col49

    col49 what.
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    Perhaps this is just me, but I always found Moxie to be the superior ability for [Mega-]Pinsir prior to Mega-Evolving; being able to passively pick up a +1 boost off a weakened 'mon made it that much more likely to clean up late-game, which to me outweighed Mold Breaker, which was almost exclusively for Rotom-W (which I won't say is by any means bad or irrelevant, but it's application is much more thin than one might typically like, and Rotom-W is p.simple to overload anyway).
  4. Namso

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    Yeah, Mold Breaker is pretty lame compared to Hyper Cutter and Moxie. I personally use Moxie because I liked not having to SD boost sometimes to sweep. Hyper Cutter is probably still more useful in the grand scheme of things, though.
  5. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    The problem with using Mold Breaker Earthquake as a lure is that the opponent will know you have it when you do thanks to the message "Pinsir is breaking the mold!".

    Hyper Cutter is imo the best ability as it allows you to not care about Intimidaters as they come in. Moxie is extremely situational since Pinsir is going to be hard-pressed to kill anything before mega evolution. Plus, you don't want to delay mega evolution, as you will be stuck with 85 base Speed for another turn. With Hyper Cutter, you can mega evolve AND benefit from it at the same turn, since switches come before mega evolution.

    Also, make sure to mention Adamant in team options. Some cool stuff you can do with Adamant is OHKO Gliscor and Latios (with Quick Attack) at +2 and after SR. You don't lose out on too much by using Adamant besides Garchomp, because most of the stuff between the 92-105 range either loses to Quick Attack or isn't very relevant right now.
    Hootie, Halcyon. and Namso like this.
  6. Tesung

    Tesung

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    I also like moxie, there are so many times where you get a free +1 on weakened things with its quick attack. It can also help you get to +3,which is key because you can do things like ohko the latis and genesect with your quick attack from full, and ohko things like hippowdon with return. Hyper cutter isn't that useful, the two intimidators, lando t and gyardos still die from a +1 return, and to even make it work, you have to predict the switch into the intimidator and not mega evolve, which can also be risky if it is a max speed lando t. Moxie should at least be mentioned, if not the main ability.
  7. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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    oke this is ready for QC. I'm sure it's not perfect because I kinda rushed at the end, but it should be mostly good. I kinda mixed up Talonflame/Mega Pinsir counters a bit at one point, so if you see anything funky that fits that bill, just let me know.
  8. incandesco

    incandesco

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    No mention of Storm Throw? Better alternative than Close Combat, guaranteed 120 damage with no drawbacks unless Cloyster is carrying Shell Armor for some reason. Widely successful on mine.
  9. Alter

    Alter let me down easy
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    Critical hits now deal 150% instead of 200%. As a result, Storm Throw's base power is essentially only 80. Close Combat was only AC material was it was anyway, and running Storm Throw over Earthquake leaves Mega Pinsir unable to beat Aegislash.
  10. Cyris Talkhelm

    Cyris Talkhelm

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    I feel like the 4x weakness should mention post mega instead of just straight up
  11. Panthera64

    Panthera64

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    I think that it should be mentioned that seeing a Pinsir in OU is pretty much a guaranteed Mega in team preview. It's not such a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but that makes it really predictable.
  12. ShootingStarmie

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    I don't see any mention of Skarmory as a counter. Pls mention.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  13. Tainic

    Tainic

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    Mention that Double Edge + Quick Attack are illegal. (Or at least that's what PS says, dunno if it's a bug.)

    Also Paralysis support is something Pinsir absolutely loves, as it makes most of his checks (Notably Talonflame and Terrakion.) virtually useless against it. (I dont know if Quick Attack +2 OHKOes Talonflame though, but I guess it does.)
  14. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Nah PS is right on that one - Quick Attack wasn't on Pinsir in Gen III, which is where Doubke Edge was allowed.

    Anyhow, at +2 252/0 Tyranitar and 4/0 Mega Tyranitar are both OHKOed by Earthquake (barely for the latter but it still is), so you might want to specify the conditions in there (cannot be at +2 or Ttar has a scarf)

    e: does Pinsir even really have 4mss? Only Close Combat seems like a remotely useful alternative. Also, Facade doesn't seem right in OO, as Facade still takes into account the attack drop from the burn so its still not hitting too hard.

    e2: derp
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
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  15. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Facade is now unaffected by burn rate.
  16. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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    Thanks. I knew I was spacing on something.

    Done (actually I just cut Double-Edge because fuck no Quick Attack), and outside of Talonflame, it really doesn't care that much about paralysis support. Most of the best checks/counters are other immune to paralysis or just don't care about it.

    Also Storm Throw sucks.
  17. Tesung

    Tesung

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    You mentioned that it has bad 4mss, it seems to me like it has literally no 4msss. It needs no other moves really
  18. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I used a bit of 4 attacks Pinsir w/ [Return/Thrash]/EQ/CC/QA and it worked okay. Bug and Bug/Flying are not good defensive typings, so he doesn't exactly have a lot of opening for setting up an SD, so all out attackers just lets him nuke stuff instead. Honestly, the only reason all out attacker is viable is because Rotom-W IS the metagame and usually the only solid Pinsir check teams carry right now, and being able to smash its face in with CC for a free kill and then beat up on the opposing team is extremely welcome.
  19. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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    Mainly referring to Thrash/Close Combat here. Having to choose between Return and Thrash and Earthquake and Close Combat kinda sucks. In retrospect, that's not ~really~ 4MSS, but it conveyed my point. When I write it, I'll rephrase that point.
  20. Plus

    Plus real vibes
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    QC 2/3
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  21. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
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    it might be worth mentioning that mega evolving isn't 100% of the time the way to go when trying to set up. for example, when you're facing excadrill and it has rock slide, rock slide is ohkoing mega pinsir. it sure as hell isn't doing that to pinsir. this situation in particular has tripped me up a couple times, but it's also true in the case of thundurus/electric-type moves in general, pretty much any stone edge that doesn't ohko (read: non-stab ones), and ice beams. setting up as normal pinsir and then mega evolving can prove effective in a couple scenarios.

    also, i would remove sr being an issue from the overview, or at least make sure you tone it down when you write it up. generally it's only 2x, as by the time pinsir mega evolves and sets up, it usually doesn't need to switch out, because its checks have been eliminated.
  22. Tainic

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    Mention that trappers are fantastic Teamates for Pinsir : Especially Wobuffet and Magnezone, the former eliminating efficiently offensive counters like Thundurus, Rotom W or Terrakion and the latter taking care of Skarmory, Klefki (Priority TW hurts Pinsir a lot.) and the rare Bronzong.
  23. Panda

    Panda

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    I wish to propose that Close Combat be at least slashed alongside Earthquake.

    Using the top 200 Pokemon from November's Pokebank OU statistics, I compiled a list of Pokemon that are hit significantly (greater than 15 base power) harder by Earthquake than by either Return or Close Combat:
    Code:
    -Aegislash
    -Klefki
    -Heatran
    -Mawile (and Mega)
    -Aggron (only original form)
    -Jolteon
    -Metagross
    -Magnezone
    -Jirachi
    -Carbink
    -Ampharos (and Mega)
    -Manetric (and Mega)
    -Electivire
    -Doublade
    -Raikou
    Likewise, I did the same thing for Close Combat vs both Return and Earthquake:
    Code:
    -Tyranitar (and Mega)
    -Ferrothorn
    -Rotom-W
    -Lucario (and Mega)
    -Excadrill
    -Skarmory
    -Cloyster
    -Smeargle
    -Blissey
    -Tyrantrum
    -Heliolisk
    -Aggron (only Mega form)
    -Absol
    -Avalugg
    -Terrakion
    -Aerodactyl (and Mega)
    -Barbaracle
    -Kyurem-Black
    -Chansey
    -Weavile
    -Porygon2
    -Aurorus
    -Rotom-H
    -Zoroark
    -Houndoom (and Mega)
    -Empoleon
    -Bisharp
    -Bronzong
    -Ambipom
    -Liepard
    -Furfrou
    -Rhyperior
    -Porygon-Z
    -Krookodile
    -Steelix
    -Cinccino
    -Eelektross
    -Sharpedo
    -Lapras
    -Archeops
    -Ursaring
    Obviously, not every Pokemon above counts as a legitimate threat in the grand scheme of things, but note that most of the Pokemon in the "EQ is better" list are also hit for neutral damage by Close Combat. Aside from the various Electric/Flying types that wall Return/EQ/CC, only Aegislash and to a much lesser extent Doublade totally wall the coverage provided by Return/CC. Not to mention both Heatran and Magnezone are hit for tremendous damage by Close Combat, anyway, with the former often running Air Balloon.
  24. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

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    A thorough list but the relevant data is the percentage of the time that either close combat or earthquake are better. Here are some examples of what is wrong with this list

    For example, lucario is destroyed by earthquake and close combat in 1 hit, so listing lucar is pointless. As well as this in the close combat list a bunch of mons weak to fighting but still OHKO'd return are on the list, such as absol ( p sure absol dies to quick attack tho), so again listing these momnns doesnt help. I will say, that the balloon point is kind of fair though! I run balloon Excadrill on my team, and sometimes if I let my other checks to pinsir die I will preserve the balloon and use it to check Pinsir. with Close combat this owuld not bepossible. Both Heatrand Excadrill are very common balloon mons that close combat destroys.

    I personally think that being unable to defeat Aegislash is too high a price to pay, but if you reformulate your argument you might stand a better chance of convincing people.
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  25. Panda

    Panda

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    Fair enough. Let's remove all the Pokemon that satisfy at least one of the following:

    1) Is hit super-effectively by both Earthquake and Close Combat (I'll leave in any that are hit doubly SE by one of the moves, though)
    2) Is hit neutrally by Return
    3) Isn't bulky enough to take a resisted hit from any of Pinsir's options
    4) Could potentially switch in but can't do squat before Pinsir destroys it the next turn

    Earthquake > Close Combat
    Code:
    -Aegislash
    -Klefki
    -Heatran (sans-Air Balloon)
    -Mawile (Mega only)
    -Aggron (only original form)
    -Magnezone (sans-Air Balloon)
    -Metagross
    -Jirachi
    -Carbink
    -Ampharos (and Mega)
    -Manetric (Mega only)
    -Doublade
    -Raikou
    Close Combat > Earthquake
    Code:
    -Tyranitar (and Mega)
    -Rotom-W
    -Skarmory
    -Cloyster
    -Aerodactyl (and Mega)
    -Rotom-H
    -Bisharp
    -Bronzong
    -Eelektross
    Given the adjustments, it looks like things are pointing more in the favor of Earthquake. However, I do wonder if Mega Pinser is still able to net OHKOs/2HKOs on select Pokemon (Ferrothorn, Cloyster, Excadrill, Blissey/Chansey, Tyrantrum, Aggron, Avalugg, Terrakion, etc) It's a difference of ~40 base power, after all, between neutral Return/super-effective EQ and super-effective CC. In addition, is the ability to hit certain threats neutrally with Close Combat even worthwhile?

    Specific calcs are obviously necessary. Might pull some up later.

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