Pokémon Pinsir

[Thorhammer]

So it never quite hit me until now just how bonkers this thing's coverage is.

Flying/Ground as an attack duo is ridiculous. Their resisted and SE hits match up perfectly, meaning every single grounded Pokemon gets smacked with either an effectively 200 BP neutral Return or a 100 BP super effective Earthquake doing just as much. The only things safe are the few that are immune to Ground while resisting Flying, such as Skarmory, Rotom, and Thundurus. And even those can only resist it and take a 100 BP hit.

So what exactly does that 200 BP mean? It's the damage from a base 155 Atk Pokemon hitting with STAB and the equivalent of a LO boost while using a move stronger than Earthquake, which also happens to have perfect accuracy and no drawbacks. It's hitting harder than a neutral Earthquake from a LO Groudon with the same nature. Even with a Jolly nature, Mega Pinsir can hit harder than Adamant LO Kyurem-B's Dragon Claw. It can do that kind of damage to an even wider range of Pokemon, while being considerably faster. And it can round out its moveset with Swords Dance or Bulk Up to set up and Quick Attack for priority. Priority which hits harder than Dragonite's Extremespeed and has better coverage.

Mega Pinsir is insane.

 

[Impy]

So it never quite hit me until now just how bonkers this thing's coverage is.

Flying/Ground as an attack duo is ridiculous. Their resisted and SE hits match up perfectly, meaning every single grounded Pokemon gets smacked with either an effectively 200 BP neutral Return or a 100 BP super effective Earthquake doing just as much. The only things safe are the few that are immune to Ground while resisting Flying, such as Skarmory, Rotom, and Thundurus. And even those can only resist it and take a 100 BP hit.

So what exactly does that 200 BP mean? It's the damage from a base 155 Atk Pokemon hitting with STAB and the equivalent of a LO boost while using a move stronger than Earthquake, which also happens to have perfect accuracy and no drawbacks. It's hitting harder than a neutral Earthquake from a LO Groudon with the same nature. Even with a Jolly nature, Mega Pinsir can hit harder than Adamant LO Kyurem-B's Dragon Claw. It can do that kind of damage to an even wider range of Pokemon, while being considerably faster. And it can round out its moveset with Swords Dance or Bulk Up to set up and Quick Attack for priority. Priority which hits harder than Dragonite's Extremespeed and has better coverage.

Mega Pinsir is insane.

Pinsir doesn't even need a boosting move, his coverage allows him to maim just about anything. And if he does get away with a swords dance, he can smash through nearly every wall in the game with little effort. He's also bulky enough to handle several priority attacks. After years of languishing in the shadow of superior bugs, Pinsir has busted down the door and stomped into standard to claim what was always rightfully his.

 

[Thorhammer]

Some calcs:

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318 - 375 (75.9 - 89.4%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 331 - 390 (91.6 - 107.8%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 283 - 333 (88.1 - 103.6%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 233 - 275 (77.0 - 90.6%)
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%)

That's what stands in Pinsir's way. Some of them, particularly Zapdos, can be EVed a bit tankier. Regular Thundurus has the same defenses as Thundurus-T, outspeeds Mega Pinsir, and shouldn't have trouble killing it once it's in. But still - with the exception of Hippowdon, that's what Pinsir does to the stuff that resists his attacks. The rest of the game is taking this kind of damage before Pinsir even sets up, and worse when it does.

+0 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar: 136 - 160 (33.8 - 39.8%)

Okay, that's one monster that can survive even after an SD. Still, who runs max Def Mega Tyranitar, anyway?

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 459 - 540 (113.8 - 133.9%)

Now that's more like it.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 235 - 277 (90.3 - 106.3%)

Faster foes? What are those?

 

[Pokefan12]

I think that there's one niche option everyone is overlooking: STAB Flying Facade.

If MegaPinsir ever gets flanked by a Will-O-Wisp, TWave or even some stray Poison Spikes, then it can fire off with a 70 x 1.3 x 2 x 1.5 = 284 or so base power no-drawbacks Flying-type move. That would mitigate probably one of its very few major weaknesses by replacing it with complete ridiculous overkill. And I like that, as long as it doesn't bring us into 4MSS territory.

 

[DarkestSamus]

Are all of these calculations running with Jolly? Or Adamant? Has there been proper discussion about what he can/can't kill with Adamant or can/can't outspeed with Jolly?

 

[Thorhammer]

Are all of these calculations running with Jolly? Or Adamant? Has there been proper discussion about what he can/can't kill with Adamant or can/can't outspeed with Jolly?

My calculations all ran Jolly; it's why I listed its Atk as 252 instead of 252+. Pinsir could hit harder with Adamant, but its Speed tier is so crucial that I don't think it'd be worth it.

 

[Machi]

Moxie still will get use. Thats like saying MagicGuard Zam won't get use simply because of MegaSageModeActivated got released. And just because he has massively more power (most powerful Thrash in the game!?) doesnt mean he's going up to OU. Rocks arent his friend in his normal form and unless you can sweep the moment you mega-evolve rocks will hurt even more. You are right in that hyperCutter may be better if you plan on mega-evolving but like I posted up top...how pissed would you be if that pinsir DID get +2 before megaevolving into PerfectlyUltimatePinchBeetle. And even then Moxie will get used over his abilities with any Pinsir that isnt gonna be megaevoling

I agree with the viability of Moxie since the issue is the things that usually carry intimidate tend to be Gyarados or Landorus-T and well neither of them are exactly the ideal match up, and Landorus-T comfortably outspeeds before Mega evolving (or often it tends to carry a scarf), and frankly I'd avoid Mega evolving while either of the two are alive. Mega Pinsir tends to act more as a late game sweeper or a cleaner that rocks aren't really an in issue when chances are Pinsir will be there to stay and pick of the remainder of the opponents team, more so if it is the Sword Dance set since it will be incredibly difficult to set up +2 on a flying/bug typing.

The real problem I've had with Mega Pinsir isn't so much rocks but the all encompassing revenge killer Talonflame that will just stop you cold, and tends to stick around late game to boot.

I also don't think Moxie is that great on a pokemon as slow and frail as Pinsir. People are going to play accordingly when Pinsir comes out, no one is going to let regular Pinsir kill something and risk setting up momentum that way, he's better off mega-evolving as soon as possible and muscling through whatever regular Pinsir can't.

Moxie on the other hand not only frees up a move slot but is fairly easy to nab against a lot of weakened and slower mons that Pinsir carries coverage against, e.g. Ferrothorn or Heatran being favorites (Quick attack also eases this to some degree in expanding your options), so it is not all that difficult to take advantage of the ability and a lot safer IMO as well as making normal Pinsir somewhat of a threat.

Pinsir is just one of the few mons that can afford to delay its mega evolution since it not only avoids compounding its weakness to steath rock, allowing him to switch in more often, but has a very usable base form and often the only time something normal Pinsir can't muscle through (especially with Moxie) that a mega evolution becomes necessary tends to be when you need to use Aerilite Quick attack to clean up or if you needed the speed boost with the upcoming switch ins or revenge killers. Otherwise, as I chimed in above I can't say I'd be comfortable mega evolving Pinsir when common intimidate users Gyarados or Landorus-T are still up and about, especially the later, so that Hyper cutter tends to be more situational whereas Moxie has a wider application and offers flexibility.

 

[pedro702]

more and more love mega pinsir i use jolly moxie pinsir i usualy send him in when im facing a weakned oponent use quick atack or another atack if im faster grab the moxie boost and then mega evolve, its so easy to get one its insane thanks to quick atack and i dont advise anyone using double edje, mega pinsir is actualy bulky and prefer to have its full hp imo.

so far only skarmory really bother me but thats why you got team mates and a weakned down skarmory cant counter mega pinsir either.

anyone running adamant i really dont advise it being able to outspeed all base 100 and garchomp really helps this guy

quick atack
return
swords dance
EQ

give amazing coverage still in the future i might drop swords dance for close combat i rarely have the time to set it up but when i do its almost gg.

 

[Kafei-]

sorry for my ignorance but aerilate boost status moves?
Specially Helping Hand lol

 

[wah543]

Does Aerilate work like Refrigerate and also make normal type moves have higher base power?

 

[Thorhammer]

Does Aerilate work like Refrigerate and also make normal type moves have higher base power?

Yeah. There's a lot of research on all three abilities in the Battle Mechanics Research thread.

 

[Lord Wallace]

Wow inititally I overlooked this mega simply due to it being....Pinsir lol. But looking over the thread I'm excited about it's viability in OU. It probably will not make the usage cut or anything and Talonflame is all the craze right now in terms of priority revengers/cleaners, but Pinsir definetley holds significant power.

I'm especially curious to see if Pinsir scores any notable 1 or 2HKOs with Double Edge or even Quick Attack that LO Adamant Talonflame misses out on (155 Attack >>> 81 with LO recoil), or if he can niche his way into a team over Talonflame courtesy of his Bug STAB or typing (yeah I know that arguement is pretty weak sauce but some teams may just enjoy not adding another Water weakness). EDIT: The ability to smack T-tar and other typical Talonflame counters with Close Combat is also something it holds over Talonflame.

Plus, the x4 Fight resist and superior bulk may allow him to switch into powerful Fighting types and do his job a lot more easily than Talonflame, that is certainly a boon to it as well.

 

[Adonzo]

Quick comparison between Talonflame and Pinsir's priority, seen as how they are the only Flying priority in the game.

252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 99-117 (29.03 - 34.31%) -- 2.32% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 136-161 (39.88 - 47.21%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-242 (59.82 - 70.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jolly Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack has roughly 73% 48% the power of Adamant Talonflame's Life Orb Brave Bird, with no recoil.

EDIT: STAB jesustalonflameisridiculous

 

[BROloom]

Quick comparison between Talonflame and Pinsir's priority, seen as how they are the only Flying priority in the game.

252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 99-117 (29.03 - 34.31%) -- 2.32% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 136-161 (39.88 - 47.21%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Jolly Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack has roughly 73% the power of Adamant Talonflame's Life Orb Brave Bird, with no recoil.

You forgot to add STAB on Talonflame
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-242 (59.82 - 70.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Thorhammer]

File under stuff Pinsir outdamages:

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248 - 292 (72.7 - 85.5%)
252 SpA LO Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 247 - 291 (72.5 - 85.3%)

This assumes +Spe natures for both.

Latias is eating LO recoil and Draco Meteor stat drops, and she still can't do this kind of damage to Steels or Fairies, and can only surpass it against opposing Dragons. Pinsir has no drawbacks, hits almost everything, and can do plenty more damage to anything weak to Flying or 4x weak to Ground.

 

[DTC]

Pinsir is just one of the few mons that can afford to delay its mega evolution since it not only avoids compounding its weakness to steath rock, allowing him to switch in more often, but has a very usable base form and often the only time something normal Pinsir can't muscle through (especially with Moxie) that a mega evolution becomes necessary tends to be when you need to use Aerilite Quick attack to clean up or if you needed the speed boost with the upcoming switch ins or revenge killers. Otherwise, as I chimed in above I can't say I'd be comfortable mega evolving Pinsir when common intimidate users Gyarados or Landorus-T are still up and about, especially the later, so that Hyper cutter tends to be more situational whereas Moxie has a wider application and offers flexibility.

I 100% disagree with this. Pinsir can not afford to delay its mega evolution at all, especially in comparison to the other mega evolutions. You say it has a "very usable base form" -- yea right. The same base form that's NU plus with no item to boot. In addition, Pinsir will not even have a STAB in its base form if it's using Swords Dance / Return / Earthquake / Quick Attack, which is imo the best set. Pinsir wants to mega evolve ASAP because it's such a gigantic power boost to its main attack. Also, Hyper Cutter will be the best ability on Pinsir pre-evolution, as it allows Pinsir to not have to worry about the Intimidate attack drop the first time around (since switching comes before the mega evolution). Moxie is only good if you can kill stuff before the boost, and Pinsir isn't exactly going to be killing stuff when it has no STAB attack or item boost...

To be honest, most Pokemon you want to mega evolution ASAP. You can say that you don't have to mega evolve right away, and that there are some small benefits to not mega evolving right away, but fact of the matter is most of the time, mega evolving is by far the superior choice.

 

[Machi]

I 100% disagree with this. Pinsir can not afford to delay its mega evolution at all, especially in comparison to the other mega evolutions. You say it has a "very usable base form" -- yea right. The same base form that's NU plus with no item to boot. In addition, Pinsir will not even have a STAB in its base form if it's using Swords Dance / Return / Earthquake / Quick Attack, which is imo the best set. Pinsir wants to mega evolve ASAP because it's such a gigantic power boost to its main attack. Also, Hyper Cutter will be the best ability on Pinsir pre-evolution, as it allows Pinsir to not have to worry about the Intimidate attack drop the first time around (since switching comes before the mega evolution). Moxie is only good if you can kill stuff before the boost, and Pinsir isn't exactly going to be killing stuff when it has no STAB attack or item boost...

To be honest, most Pokemon you want to mega evolution ASAP. You can say that you don't have to mega evolve right away, and that there are some small benefits to not mega evolving right away, but fact of the matter is most of the time, mega evolving is by far the superior choice.

Yet the base form has enough base Atk and speed as well as coverage to pick off common mons like Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferothorn and then we have quick attack. Yes, Pinsir is weak but so weak that it cannot kill off a Pokemon that has taken prior damage given Pinsir's attack stat and coverage? It may not be exceptional but it certainly is capable of doing its job in cleaning up enough to nab a moxie boost or two as compared to trying to set up Sword Dance with that typing. This is the point of using Moxie capitalizing on the weak which is a situation that can easily be brought about with proper team support, e.g. hazards, or a simple revenge kill.

I can say at least from experience that Moxie has been far less situational and heck of a lot easier to pull off that I can't agree wholeheartedly that Hypercutter would be the ability of choice. It is far more reliable simply because you're not going to see every team carry one of the common intimidate users, Landorus-T or Gyarados (with Landorus-T being a threat overall due to potential scarf). Whereas Moxie can be built around, as if you weren't doing so already with Mega Pinsir, and used more reliably.

Pinsir at least in its base form is not as vulnerable as it does not compound its weaknesses, since flying type while great offensively does add some unwanted weaknesses to take into account as you Mega Evolve AND sword dance.

I am not too sure about the issue about delaying mega evolution? Isn't competitive battling about weighing in those small benefits? In this case utilizing Moxie, which is one thing that sets Pinsir quite apart from other mons aside from Manetric (lightning rod) and Heracross (Moxie). Obviously with the current lack of a tier Pinsir will generally want to mega evolve but take into account unlike Heracross Pinsir gains a speed boost in his mega form so capitalizing on that moxie boost in conjunction with the raised speed to become a far more potent mon upon mega evolving. I find this to be quite an advantage over a lot of other mega mons because I do find the lack of an item to boost power to often tends to fall short on expectations that a boost is greatly appreciated, and since I have issues doing so with sword dance Moxie tends to do that job.

 

[The Gentleman Gamer]

I think that there's one niche option everyone is overlooking: STAB Flying Facade.

If MegaPinsir ever gets flanked by a Will-O-Wisp, TWave or even some stray Poison Spikes, then it can fire off with a 70 x 1.3 x 2 x 1.5 = 284 or so base power no-drawbacks Flying-type move. That would mitigate probably one of its very few major weaknesses by replacing it with complete ridiculous overkill. And I like that, as long as it doesn't bring us into 4MSS territory.

Except that Facade doesn't ignore the attack drop from burns, unlike Guts. So the double power... is halved. On the plus side, it is RELIABLY weak!

 

[LionKingMax]

Thing is, there is no reason for a Pinsir to stay in his base 85 speed for more than one turn, I don't see much use to it, even with a Moxie boost. You're just asking to be revenge-killed and +1 quick attack will not kill a lot of things over 60% hp.

Adamant: +1 252+ Atk Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 168-198 (46.92 - 55.3%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO (Can't use anything else since chomp outspeed if adamant)
Jolly: +1 252 Atk Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 153-180 (42.73 - 50.27%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO (Can't use anything else if you stayed normal Pinsir)

Jolly 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 243-286 (89.66 - 105.53%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

He IS really tanky defensively though, just having a chance to survive a banded Outrage from chomp speaks for itself (Fire blast does around 65-70%)

 

[DTC]

The beauty of Moxie is that if you do not have the ability to kill something, you can not get an Attack boost, and is what makes the ability balanced. Regular Pinsir will have a very hard time getting a Moxie boost, because it has issues killing stuff that is not very weakened. While there would be a few situations where you could potentially get a Moxie boost, it is extremely easy to switch into a Pinsir that has not mega evolved because it has no STAB move and no item boost.

Do you really want to make yourself much weaker, slower, and frailer, just for the POTENTIAL to get a Moxie boost? In most battle situations you simply will not as the reward does not outweigh the risk. Not to mention that Hyper Cutter has very nice utility too, because Landorus-T is a pretty amazing Pokemon in Pokebank OU.

 

[Machi]

The beauty of Moxie is that if you do not have the ability to kill something, you can not get an Attack boost, and is what makes the ability balanced. Regular Pinsir will have a very hard time getting a Moxie boost, because it has issues killing stuff that is not very weakened. While there would be a few situations where you could potentially get a Moxie boost, it is extremely easy to switch into a Pinsir that has not mega evolved because it has no STAB move and no item boost.

Do you really want to make yourself much weaker, slower, and frailer, just for the POTENTIAL to get a Moxie boost? In most battle situations you simply will not as the reward does not outweigh the risk. Not to mention that Hyper Cutter has very nice utility too, because Landorus-T is a pretty amazing Pokemon in Pokebank OU.

You miss the point again when you're trying to bring up things that aren't weakened when that is entirely what you try to capitalize on... Let alone Hypercutter is no different when whatever switches in may not necessarily carry intimidate, and by that logic just as well leave you with an unused ability. Landorus-T is simply brought up because it is the more common thing that would carry Intimidate even if it belongs in the Pokebank (and since it doesn't exist yet that just whittles down your choice of intimidate users to worry about currently), as well as being accounted for in this thread. They are both situational that hasn't changed just that the other one can be built around.

Of course you run the risk of being slower and frailer for the potential of a moxie boost but again I've never disagreed that there is a need to account for the remainder of whatever the opponents team is because of course you'll want to mega evolve when the next mon sits at a base speed above 85 but below 105. However, what we're looking at here is trying to set up and nab a boost that arguably getting it off Moxie is a lot easier than Sword dance should you opt to boost yourself, which is what a lot of the calculations in this thread account for a boosted hit (much like Landorus-T even if it is in the Pokebank). Hence, moxie or Sword dance is about MPinsir with a risk reward scenario.

The only ability that obviously does not bring anything to the table for mega evolution is mold breaker unlike Moxie which is why I'm not for writing it off as easily with an equally situational ability as Hypercutter, when obviously not every team will carry an intimidate to stop you at the roots (let alone opt for it as the go to strategy).

 

[Thorhammer]

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mew: 248 - 292 (72.7 - 85.5%)
252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mew: 109 - 128 (32.0 - 37.6%)

Pinsir should never be running Bug moves, so that's still its best attack, hitting for a pitiful 44% of the power it gets upon Mega Evolving, even before taking into account the worse coverage. Same deal with Quick Attack.

 

[Daisukereds]

No one has ever mentioned it, but have you considered running Feint instead of Quick Attack (10 BP less, but +1 Priority)? Might not be enough damage output, but could damage a Talonflame enough (calcs anyone) after SR.. If you a reeeally afraid of it and are about to lose the match.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

No one has ever mentioned it, but have you consider it running Feint instead of Quick Attack (10 BP less, but +1 Priority)? Might not be enough damage output, but could damage a Talonflame enough (calcs anyone) after SR..

Well, most Talonflame I've seen are running Adamant natures with low enough speed for Mega Pinsir to outspeed them, so it might not be necessary. I've been wishing since BW that they had boosted Feint's power back to 50 like it was in DPP, but sadly that's not the case. The extra priority level might be helpful once in a while, but I just don't think it's worth losing 25% of your power.

 

[Thorhammer]

No one has ever mentioned it, but have you considered running Feint instead of Quick Attack (10 BP less, but +1 Priority)? Might not be enough damage output, but could damage a Talonflame enough (calcs anyone) after SR.. If you a reeeally afraid of it and are about to lose the match.

I've been using Mega Pinsir a lot and I've usually found power to be more of a concern than Speed when using Quick Attack. Might be worth trying for certain situations, but overall, I'd say beating priority from Pokemon with over 105 base Speed is a small gain for having to give up a quarter of your power.

Of course, piercing Protect isn't too shabby either, especially if you're having trouble with something like Toxic Stall Gliscor.