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Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records

Discussion in 'Smogon's Greatest Hits' started by Peterko, Apr 4, 2009.

  1. MythTrainerInfinity

    MythTrainerInfinity

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    Heart Gold Battle Factory Open Level
    Battle Video: 15-28740-65303
    No. of wins 59

    The reason why I don't complain about hax much on Shoddy anymore is because of this place.

    Got some UUs and some bad luck, so yeah...
  2. Griffard

    Griffard

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    Just lost on battle 70 to a choice jolly rampardos, earthquake basically raped my team. Very sad. At least my streak was 69!!
  3. Drathos

    Drathos

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    I have the exact same streak as you Griffard +1 battle putting my all time high streak with Jumpman's trick team at 70 before taking a break from using the team, I found out that sometimes it's better not to use Trick on pokes that will benefit from the speed boost a.k.a Heracross. I'm experimenting with stall based teams at the moment which is proving to be quite fun, stall is my favorite theme for a team, watching the opponent slowly be defeated:) Good luck with anyone else who is having a hard time in the Battle facilities!
  4. Head Honchkrow

    Head Honchkrow

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    I have a question about using Scizor. During a recent SoulSilver Battle Tower streak, I was fighting against a Tangrowth with my Scizor. Scizor was fully set up (+6, behind sub) and I used Bullet Punch. However, Tangrowth (606 variant) managed to survive the Bullet Punch, which astounded me. I didn't think many Pokemon were capable of doing that. Now, this particular Scizor was sav'd, so I was suspicious of some error in the coding. But I checked its stats and everything, and nothing was wrong. So I started running damage calculations.

    First I used the Libelldra Forge calculator (my personal favorite). So here's how it went down: At +6 attack (800) and with a Muscle Band, a Bullet Punch from Scizor does roughly 83%-98% damage against a 196 HP/182 Def Tangrowth, which roughly checks out with what I observed in the Battle. However, upon further inspection, I saw that the calculator had registered Bullet Punch as a 66 Base Power move. I was under the impression that Bullet Punch, after both Technician AND STAB, was a 90 Base Power move, which would make it 99 with a Muscle Band. I ran the same calculation on the Smogon Calculator, and I got the same numbers again. So I'm confused.

    tl;dr Is Bullet Punch only a 60 Base Power move on Scizor, or is it a 90 Base Power move? If it's the former, then why?
  5. Alphazone

    Alphazone

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    Alright I have been doing the SS Battle Tower singles, and had my win streak snapped at 23... Ill tell you how I lost after I post my team.

    Latias @Choice Scarf
    Nature Timid
    IV: I do not know, however the guy who stands next to the PC in the Battle Tower said my Latias has "Outsanding" or something like that and its best stat is defense.
    EV: 252 Speed 252 SpD 4 HP
    Moves:
    T-Wave
    Dragon Pulse
    Surf
    Trick

    Scizor @Muscle band
    Nature Jolly
    IV: Asked the same guy, said they were somethng along the lines of "decent" and my best stat was Attack
    EV:252 in Speed and Attack, 4 HP
    Moves:
    Bullet Punch
    Super Power
    Substitute
    Swords Dance

    Garchomp @Yache Berry
    Nature Adamant
    IV: Same as Scizor, exact same.
    EV: 252 in Speed and Attack, 4 HP
    Moves:
    Outrage
    Swords Dance
    Aerial Ace
    EQ


    So yeah I do the TrickScarf combo then let Scizor set up. Garchomp is basically back up, and hits Shedinja in the BT or Double Teamers with Aerial Ace. However, Im beginning to think I need Charm on Latias so its easier to set up for Scizor. Im thinking of removing either Surf or Dragon Pulse.

    How I lost: Fought an Ace Trainer with Aggron, Dragonite and Scizor.
    Sent out Latias, used Trick
    Aggron uses Iron Head
    I switch in for Scizor, lose about 1/4 of health
    I choose Swordsdance, but Iron Head hits me first and I flinch
    I SD again, but same result I flinch.
    Decide to just Bullet Punch for two turns till he finally kills me. (This is where I think I lost due to the Flinches)
    Send in Latias, kill Aggron with Surf.
    He sends out Dragonite
    I use T Wave, but Dragonite had a Lum Berry.
    Dragonite kills me with D Claw
    Send in Garchomp, kill Dragonite with Outrage.
    Praying that its not a Steel type, but god blesses me by sending out a Scizor! >.>
    So Im locked into Outrage, do 1/3 damage to it
    Scizor Swords danced
    Outrage again, Scizor lost 2/3 health
    Scizor hits with X Scissor
    I survive with 6 HP
    Scizor finishes me with Bullet Punch.

    So yeah thats my triumphant fall. This is my first time aiming for 100 wins instead of BP grinding so I will learn from experience. But I need to know when to Trick or not Trick, unless that is something I always HAVE to do.
  6. Drathos

    Drathos

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    The move's base power was determined by it starting at a base of 40 and then being raised by 1.5 thanks to Scizor's ability Technician bringing the base power to 60, and it is raised once again by 1.1 thanks to Scizor's hold item, Muscle Band, bringing the final base power to 66 so yeah and with the STAB boost it raises the base power to 99 with Muscle Band but, I'm assuming that since Technician is already raising Bullet Punch's base power times 1.5 that the STAB bonus gets canceled out since it also raises the base power times 1.5 which would be 3 if both are factored in but, I'm not sure of this. That's just my guess, hope this helped.
  7. Oberon

    Oberon

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    I meant Curse. My bad. It was meant to wish stall for me and when the circumstances were right, curse/payback on everything.

    I'll correct that.
  8. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Just letting you guys know, Drapion can't use Acupressure in a Substitute which makes Drapion a lot worse than it is on Shoddy. And Acupressure is fun and I was like obsessed with Drapion and Acupressure for a while but why don't just use something like Rhyperior with Substitute, Rock Polish, and Swords Dance? That would work just as well but much quicker
  9. Drathos

    Drathos

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    I think the main reason that people are using Drapion is due to its ability, Battle Armor, which means critical hits won't happen while you're trying to set up with Drapion and also Drapion only has one weakness which is ground and once he's fully set up even super effective ground moves won't be doing that much damage to him. Whereas Rhyperior has six weaknesses and can't block critical hits unless substitute is used but he is still going to be slow to get that set up before a Rock polish so he can still get hit by a critical hit which could make him weak enough to not be able to set up a substitute. Some of the pros and cons:


    Pros (Rhyperior):

    ~Faster set-up

    ~Higher attack

    ~Wider type coverage in moves

    ~Solid Rock ability helps him to take super effective hits better


    Cons (Rhyperior):

    ~Slow without a Rock Polish

    ~6 weaknesses compared to Drapion

    ~OHKO users will take him down (in particular the Gliscor with Focus Sash)---hope for a miss on this one or sub. to protect yourself



    Pros (Drapion):

    ~One Weakness

    ~Can set up all stats thanks to Acupressure which means it's able to take hits better than Rhyperior

    ~Hard to break subs. when it gets set up

    ~Rest to fully heal its status and HP, making it even harder to take down

    ~No critical hits will touch him


    Cons (Drapion):

    ~OHKO moves will take him down (in particular Gliscor with focus sash)---hope for a miss or try to sub. to protect yourself

    ~Longer set up giving your opponent ample time to get a burn, paralysis, poison, freeze status on Drapion depending on what move they are locked into but, Rest solves this

    ~After being fully set up Acupressure will have low pp which means Drapion can only fully set itself up one time and then it's practically finished
  10. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
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    I think it would have to be tested. Rhyperior works much better in UU on Shoddy than Drapion (without cheating by using Acupressure in a Substitute) so it just seems to me that it would work better in the Battle Frontier. I've used both plenty and obviously Drapion is more fun but what is better? Rhyperior: Substitute, Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Swords Dance, Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Rock Polish, SWEEP! or Drapion: Acupressure Special Attack, Acupressure Accuracy, Acupressure Defense, Acupressure Speed, Acupressure Special Attack, Acupressure Defense... not the greatest. I've literally switched in a Drapion and used Acupressure 4 times to get Accuracy bonuses every time
  11. Scepticallistic

    Scepticallistic

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    Sweep with what? Earthquake and be walled by flying/Levitators? Stone Edge and risk missing multiple times? Rock Slide, which is almost as iffy in consistency? A non-STAB move? :|
  12. Annoying Old Party Man

    Annoying Old Party Man

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    I have a record of 51 in the battle castle, but it happened so long ago that I don't remember what team I used.

    Can I post a pic for conformation, or will this just not count at all?
  13. Drathos

    Drathos

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    You only have to post a pic of your record if you're top 3 in a facility so you don't have to post a pic but, it helps in making people believe your record.
  14. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

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    I don't get why people are comparing Drapion with Rhyperior, and on shoddy, lol. This is the Battle Frontier Thread. Battles in the Frontier involve almost totally different strategies than even Wifi, let alone Shoddy which is at least a bit different from Wifi already.

    I.e. people don't use (or at least shouldn't use) Acupressure Drapion in UU shoddy battles, unless they just like taking risks, because unlike the Frontier AI, humans actually switch pokemon to scare Drapion away. Anyway, totally different game.

    @Master Ball: I'm pretty sure you didn't get +accuracy 4 times in a row unless your opponent was locked into an accuracy reducing move, since after 3 +2 accuracy boosts, it wouldn't boost accuracy again.
  15. Head Honchkrow

    Head Honchkrow

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    I considered that a possibility, but if that truly is the case, then Smogon has a grievous error on its Scizor page (where it blatantly states Bullet Punch is a 90 base power move after STAB and Technician). Either Smogon is wrong, or my Pokesav'd Scizor's Technician isn't working. But since the Damage Calculators suggest the former, I'm afraid Scizor's Bullet Punch might be weaker than we may believe.

    Any possibility this is only true in HGSS? I seem to remember Bullet Punch easily OHKOing most things in Platinum that now require a 2HKO in HGSS (Tangrowth 606, most Cresselia, etc.). But maybe that's just a fabricated memory.
  16. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    No, Tangrowth's just REALLY bulky. That's it.

    The reason it displays 66 base power is in order to show that it didn't forget about the Muscle Band. The increase from 40 -> 60 Base Power includes Technician, while the "additional" 6 base power is the 10% boost from Muscle Band.

    Besides, the Pokemon are the same from Platinum -> HGSS.
  17. orius747

    orius747

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    +8 Accuracy, huh? Quite an accomplishment. :P I like the idea, if only for the speed, which was a constant drawback when I tried using a Registeel. Unfortunately, as Scepticallistic pointed out, he has no options for sweeping with a STAB move, leaving him open to things like Lanturn, which could tank two Iron Heads and KO you with Surf, or Heatran, for the same reasons, or Magnezone, or Zapdos... You see my point. He doesn't have a single move that encompasses all Special attackers that could break his sub and KO him, unless you want to forgo Substitute which leaves you open to all other kinds of hax. Some of my (implied) numbers may be a bit off, but the point holds true, Rhyperior just doesn't have the special defense to survive even neutral special attacks, and can't boast perfect coverage against all special attackers. Though, if you did decide to oust Substitute for another attacking move, he can learn both Outrage and Aqua Tail for near-perfect coverage. Just pray you don't run into an Empoleon once you're set up.
  18. orius747

    orius747

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    Technician boosts any move as long as its Power when you hover over the move is equal to sixty or lower. It does not matter what kind of boosts you have on, whether from STAB, items, or moves. As far as I know, Cresselia and Tangrowth are never OHKO'd by a Scizor, so it may just be a memory error, or you were using a different item/move back in Platinum.
  19. Head Honchkrow

    Head Honchkrow

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    Yeah, but my point is that Technician increases it from 40 -> 60, and thoretically STAB should then increase it from 60 -> 90. Never mind Muscle Band, I'm more concerned about the fact that apparently Technician and STAB don't both apply to Bullet Punch, seeing as it's base power only gets multiplied once to 60.

    Yeah, now that I think about it I used Iron Plate instead of Muscle Band, and I used to have Stealth Rock support. But my question remains: why don't Technician and STAB both apply to Bullet Punch? Why is the Base Power 60 when it should technically be 90?
  20. orius747

    orius747

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    Pretty sure both apply. A random guy I googled on the GameFAQs forums agrees with me, as does a random guy on GameSpot, as does a random page on Serebii. The general consensus from Google is that it does, in fact, reach ninety base power.
  21. Head Honchkrow

    Head Honchkrow

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    Ah. I figured it out. Libelldra Forge's calculator tells you the final base power of the attack after all multipliers have been applied. However, for some reason, it only lists Bullet Punch as a 66 Base Power move when it's really a 99 Base Power move. If I put in the Base Power as 66 with no multipliers, it gives me a lower damage percentile than if I put it in as 40 WITH the multipliers, meaning it really is calculating the damage as though BP is a 99 base power move even if it says its only 66.

    tl;dr Libelldra Forge has a small error with its calculator.
  22. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    No what happens is that Libelldra Forge doesn't display STAB within that little "Base Power" section of the damage output.
  23. Drathos

    Drathos

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    Well I've concluded that a stall team based around entry hazards doesn't quite work too well in the Battle Tower as it gives the AI too much time to cause your team problems with things such as status and critical hits. Toxistalling seems to be a good strategy to employ when using a stall based team as it doesn't require too much set up, just have a pokemon on your team that can counter pokemon that resist poison, steel, and poison types. Hopefully I'll break the 100 win mark soon as the Battle Tower is becoming quite annoying:)
  24. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    lol when did this topic turn into a damage formula/technician mechanics discussion?

    all of you should read the in-depth smogon articles first, particulary the following

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/damage_formula

    the reason this annoys me quite a bit is that I worked hours and days on figuring this stuff out with the help of X-Act and people simply ignore it...

    the strategy dex pages are not "totally" wrong (as in: the general damage output is roughly 50% more, no matter where you´d place the STAB modifier, but it is still incorrect), they just use a wrong formulation (wording) for convenience, or to make a strong point / convince people to use the moveset, yes it hurts my eyes sometimes, but I´ve been too lazy to fix such insignifant details (insignifant when compared to all the helpful strategy description stated on the page)

    writing something like "STAB increases the damage output roughly by 50%" would be pretty inconvenient

    CONCLUSION
    1. Bullet Punch has 40 Base Power.
    2. Muscle Band is a 1.1x Base Power Modifier.
    3. Technician is a 1.5x Base Power Modifier.
    4. STAB is NOT a Base Power Modifier.

    STAB is applied near the end of the formula, before type effectiveness, so in reality, STAB doesn´t boost the base power, more like total damage or "increases the damage output in the damage formula before STAB boost is applied"...´

    the article is maybe a bit difficult to understand, but the Base Power "part" of the formula in this case looks like this:

    (40 x 1.1 x 1.5) = 66

    technician depends on the Base Power of the move, so in case of using payback after the foe made their action, it turns into 100 and thus technician is not applied (so technician payback is either 75 or 100 base power, 100 base power ignores technician)

    back to technician bullet punch

    606, Tangrowth 2, Bold, Big Root, 196, 108, 182, 130, 91, 70, Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Toxic, Double Team, HP/Def/Sp.Attk

    assuming adamant 252 EV´d 31 IV attack on scizor, 3xSD (800)
    tangrowth defense is 182

    simplified damage formula (for my convenience):

    ((((800 x 66 x 0.44) / 182) + 2) x 0.85-1) x 1.5 = 163-193 damage / 196 HP

    that tangrowth will always survive a muscle banded 3 SD Technician Bullet Punch from Scizor (excluding a CH, obviously)

    tl;dr read the smogon articles, they´re really helpful and use the smogon damage formula, it is based on the smogon article posted above


    EDIT:

    for the reasons mentioned, that calculator is correct...again,
    1. STAB is not a base power modifier and
    2. both STAB and technician are applied on scizor´s BP (they´re just modifiers that are located in different parts of the damage formula each)

    Damage Formula = (((((((Level × 2 ÷ 5) + 2) × BasePower × [Sp]Atk ÷ 50) ÷ [Sp]Def) × Mod1) + 2) ×
    CH × Mod2 × R ÷ 100) × STAB × Type1 × Type2 × Mod3

    both muscle band and technician are in the red part of the formula, STAB is (in) the blue part of the formula

    hope that helped clarify this matter


    EDIT2: now my post was totally off topic...well, on my first HG attempt with my 2 newest Blisseys (changed the spread to 651/x/118/273/306/118 to outspeed poliwrath) ended in battle #15, crazy magcargo got me once again, my serene graced psychic needed 15 turns to lower its sp.def. ._.

    now I´m in my second attempt, did the first 50 last night...have both plat. and HG at 50, so I can do both streaks simultaneously for more time efficiency (I have 5 lv.100 blisseys already damn, pretty overkill)

    yeah and the pokéwalker is neat in motivating me to walk around and do rope skipping (started this a few weeks ago but figured out only recently that I could utilize it for the pokéwalker) or jog lol, to the point I strained my legs badly last friday (what did I get, like 500 watts lol?)...damn my muscle/tendon output is far from what it used to be when I was still a competitive tennis player

    by the way, are you still playing the voltorb flip for your staryu? you know who I mean...it´d be nice to hear how your record(s) developed
  25. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    no i'm done with that, i got enough for TB and IB and with Surf from that dude in the dance theater I evolved Staryu at Lv. 16 and will now murder the entire game with surf/tb/ib/recover. i may even use it with an eventual nidoking and honchkrow to get BP for tutor moves since starmie/nido/krow have the best synergy of the pokemon i want to use (nido is immune to electric and resists bug, and also resists grass, as does krow who resists the ghost and dark that starmie has left...rock resist for krow with elec immunity is cool too, and ground/psychic immunity in krow for nido as well as water and ice resist in starmie shows what i mean about synergy, why i typed that all in parentheses is kind of beyond me though).

    i'm not playing any bt/bf though, the only thing i'll do is attempt to win four battles in the hall with kingdra cause i still have my 250 streak there but knowing my luck i will lose at 252 lol. congrats to you with blissey and tre with swampert though

    to the guy who seriously wonders whether drapion is better than rhyperior in the tower or worth it in general, you're free to try breaking 2363 wins with rhyperior if you think it's capable

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