Platinum Metagame Analysis - A Work in Progress

Discussion in 'Metagame Analysis' started by Stallion, Sep 22, 2008.

  1. Stallion

    Stallion Killing is my business, and business is good!
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    September 22 - Initial Analysis

    Platinum has only been around for a short time, although in that time I have played it rather extensively. To be honest, this metagame is actually significantly different to the previous DP metagame, so I thought that to help get everyone into this new metagame, I’d write an analysis on the “Big Threats” of Platinum, and what I’ve seen of them so far.

    Sky Shaymin – Undoubtedly the number one used pokemon on the ladder, I’ve seen it in every battle bar one. Almost always runs Substitute 100 % of the time, in conjunction with Leech Seed or Earth Power. Even after a day, I can tell that this thing should be uber, because its ridiculous ability backed up by high offensive stats and great speed means that everyone needs a Blissey/Registeel or a steel type to switch in on it. The speed in particular means that this thing is more of an uber then Garchomp, although the Stealth Rock weakness helps incredibly.

    Rotom forms – These things are a great addition to the Diamond and Pearl metagame, and I’ve seen each fill an important niche in the metagame.

    Rotom -heat – My personal favourite of the forms and my favourite pokemon in this metagame. Overheat in conjunction with Choice Scarf and its other moves mean that it can reliably revenge kill the following threats: Mamoswine, Scizor (needs to be careful of not letting it get too many SD’s though), Lucario, Heracross, Gyarados, Azelf, Metagross, Infernape and Sky Shamin (!) That’s a mighty impressive list so far J The only negative with this form is that Tyranitar takes any of its hits like a man and Pursuits it to death, which makes me think of considering Will-O-Wisp > Thunder Wave.

    Rotom – wash – The washing machine’s main role from what I have seen is to be able to beat Heatran one on one. That and the fact it is better suited to block Rapid Spin then Rotom-heat make it generally more bulkily EV’d.

    Rotom – lawnmower – Leaf Storm is what makes this thing a slighty better spin blocker then wash Rotom, as it hits Donphan much harder as well as Claydol. However, it can’t take on Heatran too well.


    Rotom – fridge – I had my doubts about this things viability, but boy was I forced to eat my words. This thing is an awesome addition to any hail team, with a Ground and Fighting immunity as well as taking on Steels that give the team trouble. I’ve seen this pokemon run with Blizzard/Thunderbolt/Rest/Sleep Talk with bulky EV’s, and this beast is one of the best fighting counters ever. Swords Dance Lucario risks either being walled by Gliscor or by this, so the teams I’ve seen usually run it in conjunction with each other.

    Rotom – fan – Lol.

    Scizor – The crimson bug has jumped from low OU/BL to top tier OU, with the addition of a single move in Bullet Punch. After a Swords Dance (factoring in Life Orb), Bullet Punch actually 2HKO’s Gliscor which is unbelievable. Has the potential to sweep unprepared teams and has done so many a time that I’ve witnessed. However, the one reason it doesn’t run rampant is because of the pokemon I am about to outline below.

    Heatran – Without this, people would be repeatedly swept by Scizor and get owned by SubSeed Skymin. The moveset is the same, except people almost always run Naïve just to beat Skymin, which further proves my point in how overcentralising it is.

    Dugtrio – A rise in Heatran has led to a rise in Dugtrio. They are now commonly scarfed, to be an 100 % check of sorts against threats like Heatran or Infernape. Commonly run with Scizor or Shaymin to take out the larger threats to it.

    Kingdra – It has seen improved, albeit not incredible use. However, LonelyNess and I have had great success with it. It sets up on every bulky water, which are usually the bane of Dragon Dance/Outrage pokemon such as Salamence, and pummels traditional physical walls such as Gliscor and Hippowdon. It even has enough Special Attack unlike Gyara to utilize Hydro Pump to destroy Skarmory, much in the same way that Mamoswine uses Blizzard. Make no mistake, every team should prepare for this.

    Salamence – It hasn’t been as threatening as I thought. Whilst 135 base attack and Outrage is beastly, the fact that Skymin forces every team to carry a priority move such as Ice Shard or Bullet Punch means that Salamence isn’t nearly as effective as it should be. This is yet another argument that I believe will throw Garchomp into the mix for a readmission into OU, should Skymin somehow remain in OU.

    Tyranitar – I’ve seen it lead sometimes, but in all honesty it has done shit all vs me, aside from Pursuiting Rotom and letting my Skymin set up a free sub :). I suspect that it hasn’t seen anywhere near as much play as it deserves due to Bullet Punch Scizor running rampant and Sky Shaymin outspeeding variants with even one Dragon Dance.

    Lucario – Gives you headache’s thinking of a counter with its new toys, but as projected, greatly suffers from 4 slot syndrome. The first three slots will almost always be Swords Dance/Close Combat/Extremespeed, meaning that Gyarados or Gliscor can still potentially be effective counters, although Ice Punch is the most common 4th attack it runs.

    Bronzong/Jirachi/Deoxys – I’m mentioning them all in the same breath for one reason, that they are all commonly run with Light Clay and dual screen support. They are often used to great effect on offensive teams, making Brick Break an incredibly useful asset.

    Registeel – Lol, we all know the only reason this thing is seeing any use :P. That and the fact that it counters 2 attack Scizor pretty well mean that RegiNazi actually has a niche in the OU Metagame. Stealth Rock/Ice Punch/Thunder Wave/Explosion is by far the most common set, but don’t seem surprised if the Curser becomes pretty popular too.


    Mamoswine: The good news for Mamoswine means that Skymin makes Ice Shard an incredible asset to anyone’s team. The bad news is that Bullet Punch means that Scizor will always beat Mamoswine 1 vs 1 no matter what, something that it could never previously do. The jury is still out as to which one of these changes impact on the mammoth the most.

    Trick(insert psychic here): Yeah, this move is available to pretty much all psychics. The sheer movepool most of these pokemon have already means Trick adds another element of unpredictability in, making them incredibly annoying to deal with.


    Azelf: Has been used almost exclusively as a suicide lead, which pretty much disgusts me. A mixed set is incredibly dangerous, I got owned by the only one I played. Another threat teams are yet to prepare for, which could prove costly in the end.

    There’s probably more I could add, but here’s all I have for now. If anyone has anything to add from personal experiences, feel free to do so.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    November 1st - An unfinished update on the state of the metagame

    Alright, seeing as I don't have a lot of time, I'll do a few pokemon and then edit this post (this time I actually will ^_^) with more. Also decided to be much less biased in this one.

    Skymin
    - Still a pain in the ass, and a good lategame sweeper. However, a Blissey/Registeel isn't required to stop it. The fact that it is frail coupled by the fact that many moves OHKO it (without it KOing in return) and a SR weak (+ Sandstorm running rampant), this thing isn't used as much as it was at first. It is still a potent threat though, so keep it in mind whilst building teams. As for set popularity, Substitute sets seemed to have died down with all the residual damage I mentioned previously. Choice Scarf Skymin sets have seen alot of use, but from my experiences, its frailty means it can't switch in and revenge kill enough well. That, and it OHKOes barely anything, means that I am actually quite puzzled as to its popularity. Some people swear by it though, so be wary of it just the same. With the removal of Deoxys-S to ubers, I predict its usage will start to decline.

    Heatran - Oh boy, this things usage has skyrocketed. The standard moveset hasn't changed but Heatran's popularity has (and always will be) based around the popularity of stuff such as Celebi/Jirachi/Scizor/Lucario/Skymin. It is a "check" against them of sorts, and as their popularity peaks (as it certainly is now), Heatran's will most likely follow.

    Rotom(s) - Still sees a fair bit of usage, and why not? Many resistances coupled with impressive movepool mean that Rotom will be continued to be a staple of teams, barring an even larger surge of Tyranitar. The most popular sets seem to be Rest/Sleep Talk, the supporter with one (or more) of Will-O-Wisp/Reflect/Thunder Wave or a Trick set. However, Stellar's set of (Sub/Charge Beam/Shadow Ball/Hp Fighting) is certainly starting to become popular. As for the forms themselves, the oven is far and away the most popular, due to the usefulness of fire attacks in this metagame. The washing machine sees a bit of usage, but the lawnmower/fridge are rarely used and the fan is never. Also something of note is that the Rotom's have now made Spiritomb and Dusknoir obsolete as Spin blockers, due to beating almost every rapid spinner in the game.

    Registeel - Lol obsolete after a week of popularity.

    Scizor - Nothing has changed since week 1, this thing is a beast. Forget Deoxys-e (well we can now, heh ^_^), this thing is the absolute bane of glass cannon teams, due to a souped up Bullet Punch, making it hard to revenge kill. Due to the popularity of the Swords Dance/Bullet Punch/X-Scissor/Superpower (Roost can either replace X Scissor or Superpower), I've seen an increasing number of people run a Choiced U-Turn set, so as to beat Scizor's usual counters. A big reason why Zapdos and Heatran are so popular. Not unbeatable but definately a top tier threat everyone should watch out for.

    Lucario - With Scizor on the rise, Lucario usage has sadly declined. People have seemed to forget that Extremespeed is almost as powerful as Bullet Punch, and that Lucario has access to a 120 BP STAB move. Something of note is that they mainly run Jolly nowadays as to counteract the Gliscor/Salamence that run + 279 speed, although I'm not sure as to why as Gliscor is never used anymore. SpecsLuke is still not given the credit it deserves, and remains a massive threat to anyones team, being able to 2HKO practically everything with the right move. HP Rock has started to see use to still hit Salamence and Zapdos very hard as well as Gyarados. Not a really common threat, but a large one nonetheless. These two sets above are all that I really see, aside from the occasional Calm Mind or Agility Lucario.

    Dugtrio - - Scarf Dugtrio was hugely popular in early Platinum, commonly paired with Scizor or Skymin to remove threats such as Heatran, but is now obsolete. The removal of Deoxys (Dugtrio could trap and OHKO offensive versions 100 % of the time) has also led to a major decrease of CB/LO Dugtrio's, although they are still more common then the scarf set. Expect to see Scarf Dugtrio's make a return as Heatran and Gengar get increasingly popular.

    Zapdos - Has seen alot of usage as of late. It has incredibly impressive type coverage (Heat Wave was the best thing that could happen to it, barring something like Aura Sphere/Focus Blast) and fills the unique niche of being a Scizor/Bulky water counter in one. The Life Orb set had a boom of popularity for awhile. However, with Blissey and Tyranitar seeing increased usage, as well as the omnipresent threats of Scizor and Lucario, Zapdos has been seeing more usage in its pre-platinum role of a physical tank.

    Salamence - After Skymin's drop in usage, Ice Sharders have fallen off the face of the planet, with the two main ones (Mamoswine and Weavile) seeing comparatively little usage. Enter Salamence. Physical sets are by far the most popular (and why shouldn't they be!), with STAB CB Outrage 2HKOing stuff like Heatran and actually OHKOing Lucario (the ones I've faced anyway, without a defense drop as well). Works well at tearing down walls, and forces most good teams to carry a steel type (like Chomp did in DP). The overwhelming popularity of the Dragon Dancer and the Choice Bander will lead to a resurgence in mixed sets, once the good players cotton on to the fact that 9 times out of 10, an opponent will switch in a steel type. Stealth Rock weakness still makes it cry in general, but most teams aren't prepared to deal with both variants of Salamence (I for one know that MixMence bones me, but physical Mence loses to my team). This versatility means that it will enjoy very high levels of usage for months to come.
  2. Taylor

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    I think Zapdos deserves a mention.

    Scizor's Bullet Punch is a brand-new, constant threat in the new Platinum era. Zapdos' newly added Heat Wave allows it to OHKO those pesky Scizors that immediately set-up a Swords Dance and penetrate teams with Bullet Punch, and Roost gives Zapdos you an absolute certainty to be able to switch in on Scizor and force it out.

    However, Zapdos is no stranger to the OU environment and with the addition of Heat Wave, it should only appear even more often that it does now.

    The additional Heat Wave improves Zapdos' sweeping capabilities. Before the arrivial of Heat Wave, Zapdos' offensive, directly-damaging attacks were severely limited in number. But with Heat Wave, Zapdos can afford to concentrate entirely on an independant sweep. Use Agility to increase Zapdos' Speed, then throw Expert Belt or Life Orb on its moveset and you're all set. Because Heat Wave and Thunderbolt cannot do squat to Swampert, you will want Hidden Power [Grass] to remedy that problem; just keep in mind that your OHKO on both Dragonite and Salamence is no longer available.
  3. Tangerine

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    Heatwave Zapdos means that HP Grass/Heat Wave/Thunderbolt Zapdos has a very few number of safe switch in - I think sweeper zapdos is worth using now.

    The most annoying skymin set I have faced is the Growth one and the Sub Seeding - I think the Sub Seeding is pretty much the best one you can get

    For some reason I have seen a lot of newbies trying to BP Speed with Ninjask - maybe the newbies returned for platinum ~_~

    I don't understand the obsession with Ice Punch Lucario - maybe people will start running SD Jolly set in order to beat Gliscor or something but other than that...

    Mamoswine isn't what it used to be, really. Despite Salamence being more dangerous now, Mamoswine no longer can switch into Zapdos due to heatwave, and since I predict Lucario will be running +speed anyway. I did see less Mamoswines.

    Trick Gengar is pretty much one of the most amazing things I have seen. Stall is just a lot harder to play now because of it.

    Heatrans are EVERYWHERE. I think Heatran will be #1, over Gengar who took a hit with the bullet punches and skymin and hypnosis being less accurate. Heatran is nice since +speed Heatrans outspeed skymin ^_^

    Kingdra is a huge threat ~_~ the lack of a 4x weakness to abuse means that it is going to go down pretty strong, not to mention its useful resistances.

    Toaster Oven rotom seems to counter SD Scizors well, although they need to watch out for those pursuiting types x)
  4. Maniaclyrasist

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    One other thing i've realised is that people seem so caught up with these new additions they keep forgetting about the older guys who might not have gotten many great additions and thus don't prepare for them and end up getting swept. Two examples of these are DDance Gyarados as well as CM Jirachi.
  5. Tangerine

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    Is CM Jirachi really a threat with all the Scarfheatran running around?

    Maybe if it runs like HP Ground or something.

    But Scarf Heatran seems to be the "glue" - something that can deal with so many threats it's not even funny - I really predict that it will be #1 in usage, with Scizor and Skymin not too far behind.

    About Trick Gengar - it's not just Gengar. Trick Leads are just amazing - it shuts down the Suicide leads that try to set up SR - so by tricking you gain the freedom to choose your moves and you take a free shot at whatever that is coming in, which means you can literally get away with randomly choosing your attack.

    Trick Burn Orb/Toxic Orb Clefable seems to be an amusing way to stop stall too.
  6. TAY

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    Here is what I have seen:

    LO DD Gyara is incredibly powerful right now. Celebi and Starmie are seeing shrinking numbers due to Skymin, and most teams are carrying Scarf Heatran, Scizor, or both. This makes it pretty damn easy to set up and sweep, especially if you lay reflect/light screen first.

    There has been somewhat of a resurgence of sweeper Deoxys-E sets, possibly in order to beat skymin and/or scarf Heatran. Deoe in general has received a pretty heavy check from the now very popular Scizor, which is deoxys' only universal counter to date (considering the rarity of fire punch/hp fire on deoe). With STAB Technician Bullet Punch, Tech'd Pursuit, and Brick Break, Deoxys-E stands no chance.

    The most popular Rotom form by far is the toaster. Overheat and Steel resistance make it a great scizor counter, and it does beats gyarados on the switch as well. Always carrying the option of a scarf trick set, toaster Rotom is very deadly.

    Skymin is one annoying fuck. The subseed set is probably the most powerful (and most popular), since every grass type is thoroughly obliterated by STAB Air Slash. Almost every team carries at least one powerful priority move in order to help deal with Skymin. It has also inspired the use of 252 SpDef Skarmory, and has caused most bulky Zapdos to have a +SpDef nature.

    A lot of people seem to think that HP Ice is obsolete on Zapdos, and that Heat Wave is the bees' knees. Maybe it's just for the novelty, because Electric + Ice still gives way better coverage than Electric + Fire. Zapdos beats beats Scizor with TBolt anyway, so...I guess people just really hate Mamoswine and Heracross? IMO HP Ice is more worth using than Heat Wave.

    I've seen trick on a lot of random shit, including Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi, and Claydol. I have to admit the Trick + Explosion combo can be amazing if played well. Trick + SR leads (such as the ones mentioned) have also become fairly popular.
  7. Taylor

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    Roost Scizor denies Zapdos the chance of finishing it off with Thunderbolt. This also allows Scizor, with invested Special Defense and HP, to Swords Dance infront of a Zapdos without Heat Wave, which is another reason to use Heat Wave.

    The standard Celebi is 2HKOed by Zapdos' Heat Wave and Stealth Rock support.

    But, perhaps the most important benefit that Heat Wave does is, rather than using Hidden Power Ice, you can use Hidden Power Grass instead. Swampert's renowned for the capability of stopping Zapdos with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Ice cold, so the addition of Hidden Power Grass is a nifty idea; though I prefer Toxic over Hidden Power on the stall varients, which will still cancel out any threat Swampert posed before.

    As you have said, Hidden Power Ice certainly merits its own position on Zapdos' moveset.
  8. Tangerine

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    Well Toxic doesn't stop the restalk curse ones, which seems to be one of the more popular swampert sets to run

    Has everyone else started seeing more donphans or something, it seems to be used probably for Ice Shard + Rapid Spin or something.
  9. Colonel M

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    Yeah it's weird because I thought Donphan was obselete when it came to Rapid Spin as it's vulnerable to Toxic Spikes and Spikes and lacks recovery outside of Rest. >_>;

    I can attest that Scizor seems to be the #1 threat next to Shaymin-S. These two alone seem to make many teams crumble if they lack certain Pokemon (think Zapdos in particular or Heatran). It also seems that Kingdra or Gyarados makes an excellent combination with these two as they both can step in on Fire Blast, dance, etc. I personally like the Kingdra set-up better with Rest / Sleep Talk / Dragon Dance / Outrage.

    I want to say that Rotom-H and Rotom-W are the best Rotoms in the game. These two are complete annoyances in today's metagame as nothing really switches in safely without being punished (Discharge, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Thunder Wave...). These things are the greatest thing to my team in my opinion and appreciate them both.

    I know Honchkrow nor Absol aren't seen often but these two definitely have obtained moves that make them threatening. Honchkrow's gifts of Superpower and Heat Wave make the Nasty Plot set more than useful (provided Stealth Rock is out) and makes many stall teams quiver if they're slow enough. Absol is a different story and Maniac sort of pointed this out. Swords Dance / Superpower / Sucker Punch / Stone Edge or Psycho Cut seems very dangerous to face against. And also remember that Absol's Sucker Punch is THE STRONGEST priority move in the game (Arceus in second, Scizor in third). These two might not hit OU (or maybe they will, who knows?) but I see these two still posing a threat.
  10. Tangerine

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    Fire Blast on Tyranitars!!!!

    Fire attacks suddenly look very sexy right now - mostly because of Scizor and Lucario and other things. HP Fire on Celebi seems like an excellent choice right now.

    Max SpDef Tyranitar is rather interesting - it's the best "heatran counter" (beats everything except specs Earth Power which 3hkos it and maybe the metal sound set). Earthquake or Fire Punch on TTar might be useful considering the stuff that likes to switch in or stay in (Heatran/Lucario/Fighters)

    Haven't seen absols at all - I really think Dark type priority isn't too useful considering the large amount of steels - and Absol really doesn't have the speed of Lucario to bash through them or the defense of Scizor to take a hit or two.

    I'll reiterate on Donphan - the Ice Shard + Rapid Spin set is very useful - Ice Shard for killing dragons, Rapid Spin for... getting rid of spikes and what not.

    People need to remember (myself included) Zapdos can run Heat Wave.

    Predicting swampert use decline - Skymin and Celebi and HP Grass on Zapdos just doesn't make curse restalkpert as appealing as before when Celebi and Roserade was the only real things that could take it after X amount of curses.

    Skymin leads? Watch out for them. They're scarfed a lot of the time...
  11. TAY

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    Has anyone else noticed a huge jump in the number of players using Thunder Wave and other paralysis support? It's actually a pretty logical metagame shift, now that the premier ground type (garchomp) is gone and the metagame is hugely offensive and speed reliant.

    So anyway, if I had to guess I would say that the metagame is going to start drifting away from offense as more and more players carry paralysis support on their teams.
  12. Taylor

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    I won't disagree with you there. Thunder Wave is one of those moves that some of the bulkiest walls possess, but often seem to cast it aside for a more useful move. Celebi, Blissey, and Cressilia, to name a few, are commonly used throughout the stages of this generation, all of which have Thunder Wave at their disposal.

    In spite of the new Rotom forms, blocking Rapid Spin has become much more frequent in the games today, as well as becoming greatly easier to accomplish. This doesn't necessarily affect offensively-based teams, however it has become a convincing alternative to Spiritomb / Dusknoir as Rapid Spin counters, perhaps which has inspired more and more players to shift over to defensively-based teams.
  13. TAY

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    I would even take it a step further than Taylor by saying that the new Rotoms have made Dusknoir and Spiritomb almost totally obsolete. Probably the biggest advantage is that no rapid spinner in the game beats Rotom-h if he switches in (barring LO Starmie or something), and it comes with the added advantage of countering Scizor, Metagross, and Gyarados.

    So yeah I would say that the new rotoms (though mostly Rotom-h) are definitely causing people to go back to more defensive play styles. The fact that Stall / Balanced teams can deal with the quickly growing number of status users is obviously a plus as well.
  14. Mekkah

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    I know we cannot be 100% objective with this but...statements like these go a little too far in my opinion. If we want to encourage people to play before they state things, then a sentence like "I could tell this thing was uber after day one" is not the way to go.
  15. gorm

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    Zapdos and gyarados should be added to the OP as they are extremely "significant" to early Pt... Deoxys-S is also rather important, both the offensive team counter (providing insurance for mence/skymin/gyara) and the lead (getting sr down reliably). Deoxys-S as a lead however has it's potential pretty neutered by all the cb scizor leads

    cb scizor btw appears to be the new standard? I might be exaggerating..

    lastly i think ttar, cb and curse need a mention since it's all everyone is using right now :D

    great job establishing a basis MS ;D
  16. jrrrrrrr

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    Oh, give me a break.

    Skymin is not even close to the most popular pokemon and it is not even close to as immaculate as you are making it out with this paragraph. Do I have to remind you of this:

    Things like "everyone needs a Blissey or Registeel to switch into it" and "more uber than Garchomp" are not only horribly subjective but they are also blatantly false. Both the #1 and #2 most common pokemon in OU 4x resist its STAB. This "counter-breaking" move in Seed Flare only has 8 PP and 85% accuracy, which means that even if it somehow manages to get around that Zapdos (which is unlikely, but I'll play along), its best form of attacking will be basically removed.

    Serene Grace is by far the most overrated ability in the game. Why do you think moves like Confuse Ray are almost always excluded in analyses? Answer: because relying on luck is a surefire way to lose. Skymin is certainly no exception. SG is the only reason why Skymin is so threatening on paper, but unfortunately in practice Skymin really fails to meet the hype. Whenever SG doesn't activate, Skymin can not put up a fight. Basically, you have a pokemon that will do nothing 40% of the time and easily resisted damage 60% of the time.

    Even if Skymin does have good offensive stats, its still a Grass-type. Grass is a shitty type. There isn't any arguing against this one.

    Speaking of Skymin's offensive potential, how can something that you feel is so clearly Uber struggle so much to 2hko things? Skymin's threat comes from that -2 SpDef drop, not its sheer power. Skymin needs luck to be a menace, unlike things such as Gyarados and Garchomp who are strong enough to beat things on their own without luck. There is a reason why the metagame is mostly physical based and Skymin exemplifies it.

    Skymin can't even OHKO most things that are weak to its STAB. Because of that, Skymin is very easily revenge killed and will be switching in and out constantly in order to attempt an attack. When you combine that with the fact that it is SR weak and not SS immune, you will only be bringing it in 4 times total per match, severely limiting its potential even more.

    Basically, even if you think Skymin is Uber, this is supposed to be objective and writing 5 sentences about how you can tell its uber from day 1 and then 3 words about an sr weak at the end is very far from an objective analysis.
  17. Stallion

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    5,064
    Just gonna leave it there, if you saw the day of the post you would realise that this hasn't been updated in awhile; it was the second day of Platinum. So I'm gonna assume the rest of your argument is moot because of that point without even reading it, i will post another instillment after this current post though. My opinions have changed, although I will attempt to be less biased next time :).
  18. Stallion

    Stallion Killing is my business, and business is good!
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
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    EDIT: Copied this post and added it on the end of the OP

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