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Platinum Updates for the Threat Lists.

Discussion in 'Site Projects' started by Tangerine, Jan 3, 2009.

  1. Tangerine

    Tangerine Where the Lights Are
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    Jumpman pointed out that the threat list was very outdated and that we need to update it to account for Platinum Changes.

    See the previous update thread to see how you should approach this.

    For your reference the offensive threat list is here, The Defensive threat list is here

    The things that need to be updated are the Pokemon and their descriptions to account for Platinum and tier list changes.

    Not much more to say!
  2. Tangerine

    Tangerine Where the Lights Are
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    Things that Need to be Updated:

    Changes to Offensive Threat List:

    Trick. Every Pokemon that can learn Trick should be noted since Trick is one potentially damaging move and everyone needs to know that "This Pokemon can Trick you". I think it's important to add.

    Rhyperior needs to be added again, considering the Rock Polish sets seem to be all the rage nowadays, considering Bulky Water isn't as prominent anymore.

    Jirachi: Psychic/Steel. 100 Base in every stat, boasts Calm Mind, Psychic, Grass Knot, Thunderbolt, Wish, U-Turn, Reflect, Thunder Wave and greatly benefits from "Serene Grace".

    Jirachi gained Iron Head, which has a 60% flinch rate with Serene Grace and it's a much better offensive typing than Zen Headbutt. Physical Jirachis are also common meaning that we should also add the Elemental Punches

    Salamence: Dragon/Flying. 135 Base Attack, 110 Base Special Attack, 100 Base Speed, "Intimidate", and the ability, with either Choice Band or Choice Specs, to hit EXTREMELY hard off the bat from both ends of the damage spectrum. Besides Dragon Dance, its large movepool includes: Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Brick Break, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Dragon Pulse and Roost.

    Outrage needs to be added.

    Dragonite: Dragon/Flying. 134 Base Attack, 100 Base Special Attack, 80 Base Speed. Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Focus Punch, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Ice Beam are among its impressive myriad attacking moves, and Dragonite also has Roost, Heal Bell, Thunder Wave and Safeguard as great support options.

    Dragonite "Probably should be removed" mostly because I think if you can cover DD Mence You can cover Dragonite quite well.

    Kingdra: Water/Dragon. 95 Base Attack, Defense, Special Attack and Special Defense, 85 Base Speed, 75 Base HP. Sports two fun abilities in "Swift Swim", which doubles its speed in the rain, and "Sniper", which grants its critical hits 3× power instead of 2×. Among the most effective moves for Kingdra are: Rain Dance, Surf, Waterfall, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Dragon Dance, and Yawn. It's worth noting that with Swift Swim, the single turn it takes to set up Rain Dance will not only double Kingdra's speed but boost both its physical and special Water-type moves one stage, which makes both Life Orb and Mystic Water look great on it.

    Outrage should be added

    Scizor: Bug/Steel. 130 Base Attack, 100 Base Defense, 65 Base Speed. Makes great use of its new "Technician" ability, which grants a 1.5× boost to all attacks 60 Base Power or less, and can still benefit from "Swarm" which grants the same boost to Bug-type Attack when at 33% or less HP. Scizor's decent movepool includes, X-Scissor, U-Turn, Iron Head, Brick Break, Pursuit, Aerial Ace, Quick Attack, Swords Dance, Agility, Baton Pass, and Roost. It very much welcomes the benefits of Life Orb, Choice Band and Choice Scarf.

    Bullet Punch should be added.

    Defensive Threat List:

    Rotom A: I don't think there's any reason not to add this considering it's a much better Dusknoir. On that note, Dusknoir should likely be removed and replaced for Rotom A.

    Poliwrath: I have never ever seen a Poliwrath used in competitive play... yet. I think Machamp can take its place.

    Tangrowth - 100/125/50
    Grass. A very reliable Earthquake resistance, with a highly diverse movepool that includes Leech Seed, Knock Off, Sleep Powder, Reflect and Stun Spore on the supportive side. Can use Sunny Day/SolarBeam effectively, or use another Grass attack like Energy Ball, Power Whip or Grass Knot, can be accompanied by Earthquake.

    Lack of reliable recovery means that "if you can get past Celebi you can probably get past Tangrowth"

    Steelix - 75/200/65
    Steel/Ground. A typing that laughs at many, many opposing types, and with Defense like that it can shrug off Earthquakes if it has to from say, Metagross. It can set up Stealth Rock and phaze with Roar, but beyond that it usually doesn't hurt anything with some kind of defense. Earthquake and Gyro Ball are used to inflict damage against enemies weak to it.

    Steelix is also something I don't really find the point of keeping, I think if you can get past Metagross and friends you should be able to deal with Steelix comfortably.
  3. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    I think Swampert should be added to offensive threat list, Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk / Waterfall is very dangerous as well as Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Earthquake, Earth Power, Stone Edge, Hammer Arm, and other such attacks make Swampert a threatening Pokemon.
  4. Great Sage

    Great Sage

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    I agree with removing Tangrowth, Steelix, and Poliwrath from the defensive threats list. At 72, 94, and 128 on the OU ladder's usage, respectively, they aren't particularly things you need to "look out" for when building a team.
  5. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Other things that would be nice if added:

    Heat Wave on Zapdos
    Remove the illegality of Thunderpunch + Poison Heal on Breloom
    Aqua Tail on Tyranitar (which nicely hits Hippo and Rhy)
    Ice Punch on Lucario
    Earth Power on Celebi
    SuperPower on Mamoswine ?
  6. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Rock Polish Rhyperior isn't ALL the rage. >_>;

    Code:
    | Rhyperior  | Move         | Earthquake       |    98.1 |
    | Rhyperior  | Move         | Stone Edge       |    79.3 |
    | Rhyperior  | Move         | Megahorn         |    55.6 |
    | Rhyperior  | Move         | Substitute       |    30.8 |
    | Rhyperior  | Move         | Swords Dance     |    24.0 |
    | Rhyperior  | Move         | Rock Polish      |    15.9 |
    And:
    Code:
    42. RHYPERIOR (Usages: 19277)
     
    Typical moveset:
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Megahorn
    - Substitute
     
    * Swords Dance and Rock Polish can replace any of the four moves listed.
    
    But anyway, more things to add:

    - Superpower on Scizor, perhaps removal of Choice Scarf.
    - I'm not sure about removing Dragonite personally. From what I recall it can still be a good Mixed Sweeper with Superpower.
    - I'm also unsure about the removal of Dusknoir because it is still OU.
    - Starmie needs more in-depth on how it is a threat. It can perfectly use Expert Belt or Life Orb with little problems, and it does do a lot of damage to Pokemon that are weak to its attacks.
    - DX-S needs to be removed. Probably same with Roserade.
    - Flygon and Empoleon should be added on the offensive threat list, I guess.
    - Magnezone should probably be an offensive threat, not a defensive threat.
    - Ditch Weezing, Umbreon possibly, Garchomp, and possibly many others.

    My only qualms thus far. On that note, I think we should avoid removing anything that is technically "OU" now despite it being outclassed.
  7. Imran

    Imran
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    Venom posted what was originally here in the "regariding the rules of the Team Rate forum." thread. Thanks!

    Regarding the Overused mons that you have mentioned:

    I agree with almost everything that you have said. Poliwrath needs to go, as do any other mons who end up being involved in the Underused tier (which covers Tangrowth and Steelix neatly.) This may end up covering Gallade, Roserade, Slowbro, Weezing, Umbreon, Porygon 2, Crobat, Shuckle, Miltank, Ludicolo, Hariyama, Cradily, Milotic, Walrein, the Regi's, Drapion, Uxie, Mesprit, and Shaymin. I feel these could be incorporated into a threat list "for their tier" that I made mention of in the RMT rules thread.

    I feel Dragonite should be made mention of, Superpower is "enough" to differentiate it from Salamence + it's additional bulk (especially on the special side), but maybe we should mention that it is unlikely to be seen due to Salamence, and also if it is to be seen, what users that choose it over Salamence could be trying to achieve.
  8. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    BUMP

    KD24 and I are working on getting this up and running atm. Please continue posting if you'd like to add anything else.
  9. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    Snorlax, with CB now Pursuit + Elemental punches are allowed. That's a good Offensive threat now. As well as Defensive, RestTalk with Pursuit is viable for hitting ghosts.

    Flygon, now that chomp is gone. And maybe Crobat????? I guess Nasty Plost, Brave Bird, U-Turn, Roost, Hypnosis, Air Slash, Heat Wave etc. are all effective. Coming of that base speed as well, just a thought though.
  10. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    Okay, here's the initial draft of the offensive threat list, updated to Platinum standards.

    Note that these were written by Jumpman16. I've merely added things and removed bits here and there. Under each Pokemon, I'll list the things I changed just to make it a little easier to read.

    - Added Aqua Tail.

    - Added Bounce.

    - No changes.

    - Added Trick.
    - Decided against adding Zen Headbutt and elemental punches.

    - Added last sentence about special attacks.

    - Added Sleep Talk and Facade
    - Added SLP to the status condition section

    - Added Outrage and Aqua Tail

    - Added Trick, Body Slam
    - Added sentence about Choice Scarf.

    - Removed Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb.
    - Added Energy Ball.
    - Added sentence about physical attacks.

    - Removed Calm Mind and Bulk Up
    - Added HP Ice, Ice Punch, Vacuum Wave and Stone Edge


    - Added Trick.

    - No changes.

    - Added sentence about Choice Scarf.
    - Fixed link to analysis.

    - Added Payback.
    - Removed Mega Kick.

    - Added Pursuit.

    - Added explanation for Download.
    - Removed mention of OHKOing Bliss with NP LO Hyper Beam since Blissey runs SpD now.
    - Added Trick.

    - Added Heat Wave.

    - Added bit about LO set after discussing in irc, not 100% on this one though so speak up.

    - Removed bit about illegality with Thunderpunch/Poison Heal
    - Added Superpower

    - No changes.

    - Added bit about his SpA
    - Added Grass Knot
    - Brought more attention to Intimidate immunity

    - Added bit about typing in the last sentence

    - Added Earth Power, Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt and Trick
    - Removed Giga Drain and Shadow Ball

    - Added Iron Head, Body Slam, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Thunderpunch, Trick and Zen Headbutt

    - Added Superpower

    - Fixed link to analysis.

    - Added Outrage and Substitute.

    - No changes.

    - Added Bullet Punch and Superpower
    - Removed Choice Scarf mention
    - Considering removing mention of Swarm and Iron Head.

    ------------

    The following were written by me from scratch so feel free to rip them apart.

    (Rotom-A link is not clickable atm but I'll update it as soon as the analysis is up)

    So the current threat list is -

    Tyranitar
    Gyarados
    Infernape
    Azelf
    Electivire
    Heracross
    Salamence
    Togekiss
    Gengar
    Lucario
    Starmie
    Weavile
    Dugtrio
    Machamp
    Snorlax
    Porygon-Z
    Zapdos
    Suicune
    Breloom
    Ninjask
    Metagross
    Heatran
    Celebi
    Jirachi
    Mamoswine
    Yanmega
    Gliscor
    Empoleon
    Magnezone
    Flygon
    Rhyperior
    Rotom-A

    Note that Dragonite and Gallade have been removed completely.

    If you feel strongly that something needs to be added (I've heard talk of Crobat, Raikou, Staraptor and Gallade's removal was controversial to begin with) then please speak up!

    Likewise if you'd like to see something removed, now's your chance.
  11. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    Togekiss: It appears a decent number of people have taken a liking to a Mixed Set (see analysis). Here are some stats

    Togekiss | Ability | Hustle | 11.2
    | Togekiss | Move | Extremespeed | 10.0

    It messes up it's counter so it might be nice to give a mention. Possibly Encore as well since that can screw you up.

    Lucario: Technicality but in-game it's ExtremeSpeed not Extremespeed. Mine as well change it .-. Also, the lack of Vacuum Wave should probably be changed (I mean Focus Blast is there and nobody uses that lol). BTW, you also dropped Bulk Up and forgot to mention it.

    Machamp: Confusion rate from DynamicPunch should be mentioned since even your "counters" (unless you use like Slowbro) can be screwed up by it.

    Scizor: Nobody uses Aerial Ace Scizor. Just remove that entirely.

    Rotom-A: Each analysis for the formes has a seperate link so I'm not sure how the link is going to work but whatever.

    I'd consider adding Jolteon to the offensive list since Choice Specs + it's Speed can be quite threatening.

    Other than that, this looked good to me Lee.

    I started on the defensive list so I'll probably post that later unless someone else started it. (Probably sometime later today - few hours since i'm working on something else also).
  12. Imran

    Imran
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    I would consider expanding on Celebi a bit, the most offensive sets seen pre-plat were bulky Calm Minders. Celebi now can potentially utilise fast, Band sets are with that people have also started to consider offensive Special sets. It is occasionally seen using Life Orb and Choice Scarf. I guess I'd like to see a greater distinction between them. The same goes for Jirachi, physical sets are a lot more viable, and can be run more offensivly.

    I would agree with removing Swarm and Iron Head from Scizor. Empoleons most popular sets are generally Sub + Boost, so that would be worth mentioning, unless you think mentioning Torrent already is enough. Magnezone could do with a mention of Hidden Power Fire, its the Hidden Power I generally see in RMTs.
  13. Stellar

    Stellar
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    Maybe mention Trick under Gengar?
  14. Caelum

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    def list.

    Removing (opinions?):

    Poliwrath: It's never really used in OU (#128 on the standard ladder in December behind Cloyster and just barely beating Shedinja). Average stats / move pool weaken the use of its good typing.

    Tangrowth: Aside from Sleep Power, if you can beat Celebi; you can almost always beat Tangrowth.

    Steelix: I don't feel this is much of a physical defensive threat. It's not used very much in OU (#94 on the standard ladder, just below Staraptor and just above Magmortar) and it doesn't have phenomenal typing to take physical Attacks (weakness to Fighting / Ground hurt it in OU), no recovery move, and only real support options are Stealth Rock & Roar. Usually, if you can beat Skarmory you can almost always beat Steelix.

    Regice: It was #122 on the standard ladder in Decemeber (below even Slowking and getting slightly more use than Glaceon). It's weakness to Stealth Rock means it can't switch in repeatedly, no reliable recovery, bad Special Defensive typing. Even it's Explosion is fairly harmless. If you can dispose of Blissey, you can easily dispose of Regice.

    Garchomp: It's uber now :o

    Considering Adding (i.e. give me your opinions):

    Machamp: Bulky utility counter, Rest-Talk, DynamicPunch confusion's a bitch etc.

    Salamence: Gyarados is there so I was considering adding this. The analysis pages now have bulky sets for special & physical, Intimidate, Roost, good-typing / offenses etc.

    Added: Rotom-A, obviously.

    Also, these don't link to the analysis (and the current ones don't); I'll chance it later.

    - Rapid Spin + Knock Off are legal now.

    - Added Flamethrower / Fire Blast for bulkier Scizor, Metagross, SpD Celebi etc.

    - No change.

    - Remove Garchomp / Sand Veil mention.

    - no change.

    - no change. I removed Sing because it's almost never used and the accuracy is very off-putting but if people really want it back I'm not opposed.

    - Removed Garchomp and Salamence reference (it's not very good at countering Salamence now-a-days).

    - Added Bullet Punch. Correcting in-game spelling of U-turn.

    - Added Avalanche & Rest-Talk , removed Chomp.

    - no change.

    - Added CursePass & Wish

    - no change

    - updated move-pool info, removed things like Double-Edge & Focus Punch which aren't really used & added Return & Superpower.

    - added Light Screen.

    - added Encore because Encore is a broken move.

    - no change

    - no change

    - no change

    - small grammar nitpick

    - no change

    - No change. Considered dropping since if you can beat Hippowdon you can beat Donphan but left it because of Rapid Spin / Knock Off / Ice Shard.

    - nobody really uses Gyro Ball Miltank, removed that.

    - no change

    - no change

    - added Reflect & Perish Song.

    - no change.

    - no change

    - no change

    - no change

    - no change

    -I felt Milotic's walling abilities were a bit over-played so I toned down the hype a little bit

    - I actually disagree with you Tangerine that Dusknoir should be removed. Yeah, it's better than Rotom-A but Dusknoir is usuaully using a physical move - pool (and hence can be crippled by WoW), has access to Pain Split, and can use Sub/Punch CB etc. So it's "different" enough to warrant it's own spot. Anyway, "no change"

    - no change

    - no change

    - no change.

    - added Curse.

    - no change

    - no change

    - removed Garchomp reference

    - no change.

    - removed Garchomp ref.

    - no change

    - no change

    - no change

    - no change.

    Ones I want to add / adding

  15. Great Sage

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    The new Rotom forms are definitely worth adding to the defensive threat list. Machamp also gets my support. I don't think Salamence is as much a defensive Pokemon as a Pokemon that sometimes uses its defenses to become a more powerful offensive threat, and I'm really iffy on Flygon, since 80/80/80 just isn't that good.
  16. Caelum

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    Yeah you're right. Flygon was a really, really borderline case for me so I'm just removing it. The typing really doesn't make up for it's stats. Shame.

    About Salamence, I was struggling with the semantics of it more than anything. If it even bothers to play "defensively" it's for offensive purposes, arguably that's offensive play (WishMence is basically never seen so yeah). I'll think about Salamence more but Flygon is gone.
  17. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    lee, tyranitar should probably have earthquake listed as well, i guess you forgot that we mentioned it yesterday.
  18. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    I've never seen a Choice Band Celebi and Doug's usage statistics agree with me on that one. I've mentioned all his usable physical and special options and by mentioning Trick I've implied that he could be using a Choice item.

    All of Jirachis's usable physical moves are already there.

    Removed Iron Head, gonna leave Swarm because Scizor still does have the potential to run a Reversal set and Agility/Baton Pass/X-Scissor/Sub @ Swarm and Liechi Berry is a decent set. I think Torrent was played up sufficiently on Empoleon. Bit sketchy on adding HP Fire, it's not really a move you have to be concerned about when choosing a 'Zone counter...it's more of a specialist move for killing Scizor.

    Ooops. Added.

    Sure thing.

    Putting this up in the RMT forum now.

    EDIT: Actually, one more concern and this is with the ordering. Jump said in the intro that the Pokemon were in absolutely no particular order but there's something that just feels wrong with having Scizor towards the bottom, Electivire at the top and so forth. Should it be re-ordered based on usage (I know that raises the question of whether or not we will reorganise it every month based on the latest usage statistics but I just want to see what people think)?

    EDIT 2: It's up now, still happy to reorder them if people would prefer it that way.
  19. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    Not really on usage in my opinion. Maybe put them in order from most threatening to least threatening? It'd come down to opinion though, so usage could be a good back up. But, yeah Scizor is needed near the top. ^_^
  20. Havak

    Havak I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
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    I'd probably just keep them organised alphabetically, but I have OCD so do with it what you will.
  21. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Hey guys, are we going to upload the defensive threat list sometime?

    It seems that only the offensive threat list got updated, so the defensive one really needs to be updated too.

    Also, are we going to add Latias to both since it's OU now?
  22. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    list the pokemon alphabetically or by pokedex number i'd prefer the latter actually

    and thanks for all the help on this guys! (i wrote, "peer edited" and maintained the entire offensive threat article/list by myself fyi)
  23. Caelum

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    I'm sick today so I was finding stuff to do and realized the defensive one still wasn't updated, so I did that.

    I also added Latias to both (mine as well be current) and alphabetized them.

    edit: I'll take responsibility for updating it in response to the suspect tests (if that's okay with Jump).

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