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Poison Arceus (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by timetwister, Aug 18, 2010.

  1. timetwister

    timetwister

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    [​IMG]
    Arceus' Analysis Page

    [Overview]

    <p>The Creator oozes with the scum and filth He has deemed you to be in His toxic form. The might of the pestilential deity lays waste to His victims faster than the deadliest of plagues. While the goopy master cannot scratch the hide of His Steel nemeses with His divine Judgment, nor is He a friend of the Psychic- and Ground-types He hath created, His viscous hide protects Him from even the most powerful of onslaughts. The venomous creator even consumes all forms of Toxic and Toxic Spikes in His mighty gullet when He enters the battlefield. Bow before your corrosive maker!</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Recover
    item: Toxic Plate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Poison is a notoriously bad offensive typing, it is resisted by 4 types, not including Steel-types being immune to it, while only hitting Grass-types super effectively. However, Poison Arceus has its place in the Ubers metagame, due to its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes and its immunity to Poison. Therefore, it can set up on Blissey with impunity, fearing only Thunder Wave. Apart from absorbing Toxic Spikes, this set plays identical to almost every other Arceus Calm Mind set.</p>

    <p>Focus Blast is recommended in the second slot due to its ability to hit Steel-types immune to Judgment for super effective damage. However, there are a couple of other options: notably Flamethrower and Ice Beam. Flamethrower hits some of the Steel-types for super effective damage, except that you lose the ability to hit Dialga hard and Heatran is now immune to both of your moves. Ice Beam, on the other hand, trades the ability to hit Steel-types for the ability to hit the plethora of Dragons in Ubers for super effective damage, most notably Giratina, who resists Judgment with its part-Ghost typing. Sludge Bomb is also a possibility over Judgment if you are enamored with the 30% chance of poisoning your opponent, but the loss in power is noticeable to the point where at +6, you have a small chance to not even 2HKO Ubers Softboiled Blissey.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Poison Arceus greatly appreciates Groudon being out of the picture before it attempts to sweep. The standard Rock Polish Groudon will always OHKO Arceus with Earthquake, while you need 2 Calm Minds under your belt to OHKO it with Ice Beam, and need 5 Calm Minds to guarentee a OHKO with Focus Blast. A Latios or Latias with Grass Knot can deal with any Groudon, fearing only Dragon Claw. Alternatively, Lugia can be used as a defensive counter. Wobbuffet is a great teammate for Calm Mind Arceus, as with Encore, it can almost guarantee a free Calm Mind for Arceus while your opponent switches out. Also, Wobbuffet greatly appreciates the Toxic Spikes removal that Arceus provides. If Ice Beam is chosen over Focus Blast, Magnezone makes a great teammate, trapping and killing off the Steel-types that wall you.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Recover
    move 2: Will-O-Wisp
    move 3: Ice Beam / Flamethrower
    move 4: Roar / Cosmic Power
    item: Toxic Plate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The main draw to using Poison Arceus is to support the team by removing Toxic Spikes, so it's only natural to utilize its potential as a team supporter. With 406 HP and 301 defenses, access to a reliable healing move in Recover, and fantastic support moves, Arceus can fill this role very well. Will-O-Wisp is a great move that helps Arceus and the rest of its team against physical attackers, while the final slot either prevents your opponent from setting up, or turns Arceus into an impregnable wall.</p>

    <p>Will-O-Wisp is the preferred status move, although Toxic and Thunder Wave both have their merits. However, Will-O-Wisp's ability to soften hits from Groudon, who would otherwise stomp all over Arceus makes it the better choice. Ice Beam's utility and coverage in Ubers makes it the primary choice for an attack, but Flamethrower is also an option, especially if you choose Toxic or Thunder Wave, as it still gives you a chance at burning Groudon and other physical attackers.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Since you are likely using Poison Arceus for its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, it is very hard to "counter." However, there are some Pokemon that are especially disruptive to your supportive efforts: Mewtwo, Heatran, and Groudon. Taunt + Calm Mind Mewtwo is a real problem for Support Arceus, as Arceus would be forced to either fire very weak Ice Beams or switch out. A great way of dealing with Mewtwo is Giratina-O, whose Shadow Sneak can wear down Mewtwo rather quickly. If you choose Cosmic Power for your final moveslot, Heatran will wall you, so you will need something like Garchomp to take care of it with a powerful Earthquake. Forretress or Skarmory make great teammates for Support Arceus, as it will be forcing a lot of switches, which you can take advantage of by laying down entry hazards of your own. If necessary, Arceus can use Stealth Rock in the last slot, but since it has much better things to do than that, this is not recommended. Finally, with Arceus crippling physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp, Blissey is safe to take the remaining special attackers on.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Flamethrower or Ice Beam can be used over Focus Blast on the Calm Mind set, but the coverage Focus Blast gives is significantly better. Sludge Bomb is a possibility over Judgment if you really want to poison your opponent, but the power loss is rather significant.</p>

    <p>For the Support set, Judgment can be used over Ice Beam or Flamethrower if you really desire a STAB move, but having a Poison-type move as your only attack is very suboptimal considering the abundance of Steel-types in Ubers. Thunder Wave or Toxic can be used over Will-O-Wisp, but Will-O-Wisp's ability to cripple Poison Arceus's biggest threats in Groudon and Garchomp makes it a great choice.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Groudon is the best counter for Poison Arceus; the standard Rock Polish Groudon will always OHKO Arceus with Earthquake, unless you are running the Support set and are able to Will-O-Wisp it. In a similar manner, Garchomp can pose a threat if Arceus lacks Ice Beam or Will-O-Wisp, as Choice Scarf Garchomp will 2HKO it with Earthquake. Heatran and other Steel-types are a pain for Arceus because it will have to rely on Focus Blast's shaky accuracy in order to take care of them. Steel Arceus deserves a special mention because not only can it Calm Mind along with Poison Arceus, but it could also use Roar to phaze your Arceus out, putting you in a real tough spot.</p>
  2. giggity69

    giggity69

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    I think that safeguard deserves a mention and light screen deserve a slash on the support set sue to the formers ability to combat status and the latter's excellent defensive capability in tandem with will-o-wisp. I don't feel that cosmic power really does anything for arceus and it wastes a slot and a turn that he could be using to support the team. Along that line, how often does something in ubers actually stay in for three turns? I can only think of a few instances (A few of which would get you shut down by taunt.... I am looking at you mewtwo). So I think that Perish Song should be replaced as well (Maybe reflect and safeguard could take their slots).

    As far as the CM set is concerned, I do not really feel that it is viable because it is utterly walled by steel types without flamethrower and completely walled by heatran with it. Poison just has too terrible of coverage to be the crux of a set on something like arceus.

    He does have access to both swords dance and poison jab, so you may be able to make a moveset out of that ( SD, Poison Jab, EQ, Fire move?) though it may run into the same problems as the CM set.

    PM me when you get a chance because I have a basic analysis for a set I tested written, so maybe it could get tacked on in here.
  3. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Calm Mind Arceus is really overdone, IMO. It's not that good on Poison Arceus due to its horrible coverage (There are more Steels in Ubers than in OU, heh). The defensive set is good though, and that should be what Poison Arceus should be geared to do.
  4. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Well, you sort of have to treat every type of arceus as a different pokemon, so naturally with each new type there are advantages and disadvantages that may make a CM set more viable under certain circumstances or on certain teams. I am kind of bored of seeing every analysis list a CM set, but I know that they each need to be analyzed seperately because they each have different counters and different pokemon they can set up on.
  5. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    Agreed. But you really need to emphasise what differentiates it from the Steel Calm Minder, which has similar counters (Groudon), brings a spread of fantastic resistances to the table and has no immunities to its STAB.
  6. Fireburn

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    Poison CM does indeed work well. It is set apart from from Steel because:

    -TSpikes Absorption benefits the rest of the team.

    -Ability to beat Blissey one on one makes up for lesser STAB. Also Flamethrower Blissey in sun is annoying to Steel Arceus if it crits.

    -Doesn't care about Fighting-types/attacks, most notably Heracross, Infernape, or Fighting Arceus. Also Darkrai, Deoxys-A, and Mewtwo don't usually pack moves that can hit Poison Arceus for SE damage.

    -Not weak to Fire.

    However I would like to see Focus Blast as the primary option for the 2nd attack. Her's a list of all the stuff that you can beat with Focus Blast that Ice Beam does lol to:

    -BU Dialga.
    -HEATRAN (This is a big one)
    -Tyranitar (Also a biggie)
    -Defensive Normal Arceus
    -Steel Arceus
    -Registeel
    -Hits all other Steels (and Groudon) for neutral damage.

    ...whereas Ice Beam is only useful for Groudon. (Garchomp is faster so you still lose to it.) Flamethrower is also inferior to Focus Blast since that leaves you totally helpless vs Heatran. IMO, you drop FT completely and put Focus Blast as the primary coverage attack.

    The defensive set looks okay, but I think you should deslash Toxic. WoW is just so much better since you still get solid residual damage AND it covers Steel-types bar Heatran AND it cripples Groudon/Garchomp which are Poison Arceus' main counters. Toxic only really needs an AC mention since it lets you beat Blissey one on one.

    Also do not mention Bold. (Unless is gives survival to a specific, important attack.) Not being able to outspeed Max Speed Positive base 90's + Rayquaza + Palkia/Mew is not worth the little bit of extra defense, esp considering Arceus gets Will-o-Wisp.
  7. timetwister

    timetwister

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    I agree with those recommendations, Fireburn. All of the things you pointed out were things I wasn't sure about anyway, so thanks for validating my concerns. As for Focus Blast, I had PP and Accuracy concerns, but I suppose it's too good to pass up.

    Also, giggity, I already tried a SD set, however it was different. But I think running an SD set without ExtremeSpeed is not optimal and much more easily countered.
  8. giggity69

    giggity69

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    That is true; I suppose a poison SD set would be more of a novelty but I thought it needed to be looked into at least =)

    Also, fireburn, bold gives arceus a very, very solid chance to survive scarfchomps earthquake (Timid : 82.8 - 97.5% Bold : 75.4 - 88.7%) It is kind of a specific reason and I do feel that timid would gererally be the superior choice, but being able to survive an attack and burn the pokemon who would most likely be revenging it makes it worth a slash in my opinion.
  9. firecape

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    All Arceus sets should always run +Speed unless they have a very important reason not to. Sure you may survive, but really, you shouldn't stay in on Garchomp either way. Without a +Spe Nature you are outsped by all base 90 Speed Pokemon that run 252+, as well as Rayquaza, who has 20 more Attack then Garchomp.
  10. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Again I definitely agree that a timid nature is superior, but if for whatever reason the player wants to have that extra bit of defense, bold is an option. Maybe it could go in the other options section as opposed to being slashed, but I think it should be mentioned somewhere.:toast:
  11. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    RECALC: Garchomp's Scarf Earthquake does 63.5%-75.3%
  12. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Hmmm not really sure what went wrong when I did it but jib is right. Maybe bold isn't worth a mention after all
  13. timetwister

    timetwister

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    AC filled in.
  14. firecape

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    You definitely need to mention Toxic Spikes absorbtion when you write this- I skimmed it and didn't see any mention but in the overview, maybe I missed some other mention. I also think Flamethrower should be slashed for Focus Blast, and Shadow Ball should get at least a mention in AC for Giratina-O (I don't think it's slashworthy because then Steel-types wall you, but it should be mentioned with Magnezone support IMO). Flamethrower hits the main target of Focus Blast (Steel-types) for 100% accuracy, rather then the shaky 70% of Focus Blast. I realize Heatran walls you with Flamethrower, but I'd rather take that then Focus Miss.

    edit: Just a heads up, the proper format for your EVs is 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe, compaired to your 100 HP / 100 DEF / 100 SATK / 100 SDEF / 100 SPE
  15. timetwister

    timetwister

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    Thanks. I fixed the EV's and added more mentions of the fact that it removes Toxic Spikes. Also, I'm not entirely sure about Flamethrower. But as for Shadow Ball, I think Ice Beam would be better as it has 15 more BP and has better coverage with Poison Judgment, also hitting Giratina-O for super-effective damage.
  16. firecape

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    I stand by what I said for Flamethrower, but yes now that I think about it Ice Beam would be better then Shadow Ball.
  17. Great Sage

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    Timid is the only nature that will be listed. Bold can be mentioned in Additional Comments, if necessary.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  18. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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    QC APPROVED 2/3
  19. Fireburn

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    [​IMG]

    Moved to ubers forum.
  20. timetwister

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    I have written it out (hopefully in the correct format). I guess I need grammar checks now.
  21. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Don't make this an advertisement or anything of the sort. You may have pointed out that Poison-type Arceus has some faults, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Poison Arceus stops at "only" support. You never mentioned anything other than it removing Toxic Spikes, which some other random Poison-type can do, but *not* as great as Arceus. Also, I may not be a GP member, but I strongly suggest against multiple punctuations, and I recommend this analysis have a professed tone to it. Perks? Advantages? Why should it be used or not used? Describe, don't advertise.

    Oh, and this goes for the rest of the analysis as well.
  22. iDunno

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    I agree with this. Make your analysis sound more professional (especially the overview), and hold off with the exclamation marks.

    Instead of "Poison??!?" say something like "Did you say Poison?". This makes it sound more refined.

    The Overview should be expanded a bit, as it is lacking in information (don't make it too long though).
  23. Fatecrashers

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    i love grammar prose
    so put another dime in the jukebox baby

    GP CHECK 1/2

    delete
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    Show Hide
    [OVERVIEW]
    <p>While Poison is normally considered a sub-par type typing, Poison Arceus does have a niche place in the Ubers metagame. The lack of powerful Poison-types is exploited very effectively by Forretress, laying down Toxic Spikes to weaken weakening the staying power of your walls and Life Orb sweepers. Poison Arceus remedies this, by giving you a guarenteed way of getting rid of those pesky Toxic Spikes just by switching in.</p>

    [SET]
    Name: Calm Mind
    Move 1: Calm Mind
    Move 2: Judgment
    Move 3: Focus Blast
    Move 4: Recover
    Item: Toxic Plate
    Nature: Timid
    EV: 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Poison is a notoriously bad offensive typing type. It is resisted by 4 types, not including Steel-types being immune to it, while it only hitting hits Grass pokemon for super effective damage. However, Poison Arceus has its place in the Ubers metagame, due to its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes and immunity to Poison. Therefore, it can set up on Blissey with impunity, only fearing only Thunder Wave. Apart from absorbing Toxic Spikes, this set plays identical to almost every other Arceus Calm Mind set.</p>

    <p>Focus Blast is recommended as the second attack to go along with Judgment due to its ability to hit the Steel-types that are immune to Judgment for super effective damage. However, there are a couple of other options: notably Flamethrower and Ice Beam. Flamethrower also hits some of the Steels for super effective damage, except that you lose the ability to hit Dialga hard and Heatran is now immune to both of your moves. Ice Beam, on the other hand, trades the ability to hit Steel-types for the ability to hit the plethora of Dragons in Ubers for super effective damage, most notably Giratina, who resists Judgment with its part-Ghost typing. Sludge Bomb is also a possibility over Judgment if you are enthralled by enamored with the 30% chance of poisoning your opponent, but the loss in power is noticable noticeable to the point where at +6, you have a small chance to not even 2HKO Ubers Softboil Blissey.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>Poison Arceus greatly appreciates Groudon being out of the picture before it attempts to sweep. The standard Rock Polish Groudon will always OHKO Arceus with Earthquake, while you need 2 Calm Minds under your belt to OHKO it in return with Ice Beam, and need 5 Calm Minds to guarentee a OHKO with Focus Blast. A Latios or Latias with Grass Knot can deal with any Groudon, fearing only Dragon Claw. Alternatively, Lugia can be used as a defensive counter. Wobbuffet is a great teammate for Calm Mind Arceus, as with Encore, it can almost guarentee a free Calm Mind for Arceus while your opponent switches out. Also, Wobbuffet greatly appreciates the support Arceus provides removing Toxic Spikes removal that Arceus provides. If Ice Beam is chosen over Focus Blast, a Magnezone makes a great teammate, trapping and killing off the Steel-types that would wall you.</p>

    [SET]
    Name: Supporting Support Arceus
    Move 1: Recover
    Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
    Move 3: Ice Beam / Flamethrower
    Move 4: Roar / Cosmic Power / Perish Song
    Item: Toxic Plate
    Nature: Timid
    EV: 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>The main draw to using Poison Arceus is to support the team by removing Toxic Spikes, so it's only natural to fully utilize its potential as a team supporter. why shouldn't it continue the theme by supporting the team even more? With 406 HP and 301 defenses, access to a reliable healing recovery move in Recover, and fantastic support moves, Arceus can fill this role very well. Will-O-Wisp is a great move that helps Arceus and the rest of its team against physical attackers, while the move in the final slot either prevents your opponent from setting up, or turns makes Arceus into an impregnable wall</p>

    <p>Will-O-Wisp is the preferred status move, although Toxic and Thunder Wave both have their merits. However, Will-O-Wisp's ability to soften hits from Groudon, who would otherwise stomp all over Arceus, makes it the better choice. Ice Beam's utility and coverage in Ubers makes it the primary choice for an attack, but Flamethrower is also an option, especially if you choose Toxic or Thunder Wave, as you would still have it still gives you a chance at burning Groudon and other physical attackers.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>Since you are likely using Poison Arceus for its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, it is very hard to 'counter.' However, there are some Pokemon that are especially troublesome disruptive to your supportive efforts in your efforts in supporting the team any further: Mewtwo, Heatran, and Groudon. Taunt + Calm Mind Mewtwo is a real problem for Support Supporting Arceus, and most defensive pokemon in general as Arceus would be forced to either fire very weak Ice Beams or switch out. A great way of dealing with Mewtwo is Giratina-O, whose Shadow Sneak can wear down Mewtwo rather quickly. If you chose, choose Cosmic Power for your final moveslot as your final attack, Heatran will wall you, so you will need something like a Garchomp to take care of it with a powerful Earthquake. Forretress or Skarmory make great teammates for Supporting Support Arceus, as it will be forcing a lot of switches, which so you can take advantage of by laying down entry hazards of your own. In a pinch If necessary, Arceus can use Stealth Rock in the last slot, but since it has much better things to do than that, so it this is not recommended. Finally, with Arceus crippling physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp, Blissey is well equipped safe to take the remaining special attackers on.</p>

    [TEAM OPTIONS]
    <p>The best teammates for Poison Arceus are ones that can take advantage of its ability to remove Toxic Spikes. Wobbuffet has its Wobbuffet's ability to let help others set up is diminished if it switches into Toxic Spikes, also possibly ruining which may also ruin any attempts at getting a kill with a Custap Berry Destiny Bond. Blissey also likes the removal of Toxic Spikes as without them, so it does not have to rely on Aromatherapy to heal itself. so that it can continue to take powerful special attacks for the team. There are also offensive Pokemon that greatly appreciate the removal of Toxic Spikes. Groudon is perhaps the best example, as the combination of poison damage and Life Orb recoil hamper Groudon's attempts at a sweep.</p>

    [OPTIONAL CHANGES]
    <p>Flamethrower or Ice Beam can be used over Focus Blast on the Calm Mind set, but the coverage Focus Blast gives is significantly better than the other moves. Sludge Bomb is a possibility over Judgment if you really want to poison your opponent, but the power loss is rather significant.</p>

    <p>For the Support set, Judgment can be used over Ice Beam or Flamethrower if the lack of you really desire a STAB move is really bugging you, but having a Poison-type move attack as your only attack is very suboptimal considering the abundance of Steel-types in Ubers. Thunder Wave or Toxic can be used over Will-O-Wisp, but Will-O-Wisp's ability to cripple hamper Poison Arceus's most glaring holes biggest threats in Groudon and Garchomp makes it a great choice.</p>

    [COUNTERS]
    <p>As has been mentioned previously a few times, Groudon is the best counter for Poison Arceus. The standard Rock Polish Groudon will always OHKO with Earthquake, unless you are running the Support set and are able to Will-O-Wisp it. In a similar manner, Garchomp can also deal with Arceus if it pose a threat if Arceus lacks Ice Beam or Will-O-Wisp, as Choice Scarf Garchomp will 2HKO with Earthquake. Heatran, and other Steel-types, are a pain for Arceus because it will have to rely on Focus Blast's shaky accuracy in order to take care of them. Steel type Arceus deserves a special mention because not only can it Calm Mind along with Poison Arceus, but it could also use Roar to phaze your Arceus out, putting you in a real tough spot be using Roar which could put you in a real tough spot.</p>


    good work overall

    [​IMG]
  24. timetwister

    timetwister

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    I'm sorry, I never noticed Fatecrashers' post, I've been focusing so much on 5th gen that I sort of forgot about this. Anyway, the changes Fatecrashers made have been added to the OP. I guess I just need one more GP check.
  25. Komodo

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    ~GP check 2/2~

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    Red is remove
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