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Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by SuperJOCKE, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Siglyph and Swoobat outspeed Hera and lands nasty hits on Heracross. Base 97 and 114 respectively. Just figured I'd mention it. Also, both are birds.
  2. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    I used it on my team (my final set was Return/Close Combat/Shadow Claw/Swords Dance) and it was alright. If I had to pick a tier I'd go Mid. It definitely has good power, speed and coverage, and if it can set up a Swords Dance it can be brutal. However, it's severely let down by its horrible defences. I often found that if it couldn't OHKO it was going to take massive damage in return, or even get itself OHKOed against more powerful opponents. I have to agree with TM13IceBeam that an unboosted neutral attack isn't always enough to OHKO, and this is particularly relevent to Zangoose given that Return has no super-effective coverage ever. Swords Dance helps but it isn't always easy to set-up without being hit hard or dying.

    It comes a tad late and it doesn't really have many notable match-ups either, besides Zinzolin or whatever his name is. I guess it also does well against the Dark type elite 4 member with Close Combat but I used something else on my team and didn't test it.

    Overall good but not outstanding.
  3. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    can someone name me the exact list of trainers who use swoobat, because i can only think of rood and he's just one battle. sigilyph has caitlin but you shouldn't be using hera anyway unless you feel extremely plucky.

    magdestroysboth
  4. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    And Using Swoobat against Heracross is jumb dumb with his 4x fighting resist
  5. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Yeah, don't use Heracrumb against Swoobumb.

    Sigilyph is actually a bit more common I think? Must be some 4-5 trainers at least that use it, including one gym and one elite.

    Unfezant, Braviary and Mandibuzz (and their unevolved forms) usually die to Close Combat before they can do anything from my experience. Now Archeops and Swanna I'd stay away from. Neutral Close Combat is more powerful than SE Rock Slide, but you might want to conserve its PP or something.
  6. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Doesn't Skyla still have her Swoobat?
  7. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    And who is going to use Heraboss against Skyla?
  8. IOS

    IOS

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    This debate is kind of silly. Every Pokemon has bad matchups. Is anyone planning on using Magnezone against Camerupt? Didn't think so.
  9. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    That's a pretty extreme example, but I get your point. The point is, does the point that Rock Slide hits SE mean anything when fighting a Flying type. And again, who in their right mind is going to send out Heracross against a Flying type?
  10. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    why cant the same be said for scrafty?
  11. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    It can. I never said it couldn't.
  12. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    I dont see why Scraggy qualifies for top and not Heraboss then
  13. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Most of my argument was because people were saying "lol lets put Scrafty in High and Heracross in top" It sorta felt like "lets bump down Scrafty since there's no room for both of them up there"

    It's stupid. Scrafty is great, Heracross is great (although I've never used one because stupid Safari Zone), why are we throwing one under the bus because someone likes the derpy looking bug too much?
  14. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    I havent used Scraggy in BW2, so I cant say if it deserves top or not, but looking at it off paper, it doesn't seem worthy of top tier, and I've never been able to tell why its top in BW1, or 2. Heracross has 125 base atk, and close combat at level 34. Also guts+flame orb which you get in reversal mountain.
  15. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    HJK is just fine for in-game, it doesn't need the attack boost from Expert Belt if you get a Moxie Scrafty because it'll be hitting OHKOs anyway.
  16. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    but it has piss poor stats as a scraggy, only 90 base attack as a Scrafty, and 65 base hp doesnt sound very bulky, even with 115 base defenses.
  17. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    You say only 90, when Crobat has the same attack score. Moxie just throws things into overdrive. It's really one of those Pokemon you have to experience to know just how good it is.
  18. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    I was joking when I said to use Rock Slide .________.
    why else do you think the section about rock slide was slashed out just like this statement

    Besides, the only occurrence of flying-types in E4 are Drifblim and Sigilyph, in two battles which heracross really doesn't have any business with other than being used as healing fodder. Rock Slide is just too weak for SE damage (remember neutral hits usually need a boost behind it to OHKO? Something like Zangoose STAB Return has problems one-shotting. 102 * 1.5 = 153. 75*2 = 150 < 153. What makes you think that Heracross will have a better time killing shit with a weaker and less accurate attack with just 10 more Attack than Zangoose? The flinch?)
  19. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    I dont think Crobat is top. And Moxie may boost its attack, but that low speed means it'll likely have to switch out against alot of stuff after a boost, making the boost useless.
  20. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Ok I'm posting my thoughts on the pokemon I used. My team was Samurott, Leavanny, Magmortar, Steelix, N's Sigilyph and Zangoose.

    I agree with Oshawott's current position in High. It kinda sucks as an Oshawott but take off when it first evolves, becoming a very good water-type. It's pretty much the same as BW1.

    Magby in Mid is also fine by me. I hate how late it evolves mostly, although it is pretty good overall.

    I used N's Sigilyph which isn't being tiered, although I don't think the extra experience really changes that much about it. It's currently in High which is fine. I think a case for Top COULD be made, but I won't be the one making it!

    For Onix, I think it's going to need 2 entries since we aren't assuming trade evolutions: one where you are able to evolve it and one where you aren't. Onix would be terrible without evolution. I put up with it until Chargestone Cave and it was barely useful giving that evolution was inevitable (it shits all over Elesa, for instance) but I can't understand why anyone would want to use it the whole way through!

    So yeah, these are submissions for Sewaddle, Onix (evolve into Steelix) and Zangoose. Yes I know I already posted about Zangoose but I wanted to put it in the right format.

    Sewaddle: - Mid Tier
    Availability: Found on Route 20. It is fairly common and easy to find.
    Stats: Leavanny has good stats overall. 103 Attack and 92 Speed make it a strong attacker. Its defences aren’t mind-blowing but 75/80/70 isn’t the worst out there, and it can shrug off a hit or two assuming that its typing isn’t disadvantageous to the situation.
    Typing: Grass/Bug is a hit-and-miss STAB combo. Both are resisted by Poison, Fire, Flying and Steel, but the combo covers Water, Rock, Ground, Psychic, Grass and Dark. It should go without saying that Grass/Bug is a poor defensive type as it carries 6 weaknesses (including 4x weaknesses to Flying and Fire attacks). On the other hand, resistances to Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting and Ground are helpful. Overall, you’ll need to pick your fights carefully.
    Movepool: Sewaddle has access to good physical STAB attacks. Bug Bite at level 8 is neat and makes Sewaddle surprisingly tough, and just as Bug Bite and Razor Leaf start becoming weak it gets Leaf Blade and X-Scissor. If you wish you can try sweeping with Swords Dance, as long as you don’t do anything stupid like set up against a Flying type. Leavanny’s main problem is that it has absolutely nothing to hit Steel types with, and its coverage options don’t really help much against the 4 types that resist its STABs.
    Major Battles: Roxie wall you. Against Burgh you have super-effective Bug Bite for Swadloon and Leavanny. Your Electric resistance is helpful for Elesa but watch for Zebstrika’s Flame Charge. Your Grass STAB is ideal for Clay and Marlon but stay away from Skyla. Leavanny can help against the elite 4, particularly against Caitlin (bar Sigilyph) and Grimsley (watch out for Aerial Ace and Rock Tomb).
    Additional Comments: Swadloon evolves into Leavanny by happiness. This isn’t that big of a deal in BW2 and there is a good chance that you’ll have Leavanny by level 21. Having a Pokémon with 103 Attack that early is pretty sweet. Leavanny can be a useful addition to you team as long as you provide it with plenty of team support to account for the shortcomings of its typing.

    Onix (evolve into Steelix): - Mid Tier
    Availability: Onix is found in the Relic Path, accessible via Castelia Sewers. It’s somewhat rare (5%), although it is more common in ground shaking spots (20%).
    Stats: Onix is well known for its bad stat distribution. 160 Defence seems impressive but 35 HP lets it down somewhat. 70 Speed makes it fast for a Rock type, for whatever that’s worth. Unfortunately Onix has a terrible 45 Attack, and it can’t take unresisted special hits for very long with just 35 HP and 45 Special Defence. Thankfully, Onix improves significantly after evolution. It loses a ton of Speed but becomes more durable and can inflict better damage (although 85 Attack is still a bit low).
    Typing: Rock/Ground has its ups and downs, although it isn’t great overall. 4x Water and Grass weaknesses are horrible, and Fighting, Ground, Steel and Ice weaknesses on top of that don’t do it any favours. Still, Onix carries some useful resistances (Fire, Flying, Poison and Rock) along with an Electric immunity, which may be helpful for some teams. Upon evolving to Steelix, it becomes Steel/Ground, which is a much better typing. Steelix gains a ton of resistances and sheds a few weaknesses, all in exchange for its Fire resistance (now a weakness). It’s more than a fair trade!
    Movepool: The thing that saves Onix from being truly worthless before evolution is its early access to STAB Dig, which partially makes up for its low Attack. It also gets Strength and STAB Rock attacks, providing it with good coverage. Onix and Steelix actually have wide movepools. Beyond STABs, you get Crunch, Double-Edge and the elemental fangs. Strong coverage really helps make up for the middling Attack stats that Onix and Steelix carry.
    Major Battles: Ultimately it depends on when you evolve it. It should be said that Onix may well be the best counter to Elesa in the game because it resists all of her attacks besides Emolga’s weak Pursuit, and it has super-effective STABs for her whole team (and Smack Down can even be used to make Emolga vulnerable to Dig). Onix does less well against Burgh (Steelix is an ok choice for Burgh though) and Clay. Onix should be evolved before Skyla and Steelix can beat Swoobat and Skarmory one-on-one. Aside from Flygon, it does well against Drayden too. It should skip Marlon obviously. Its performance against the elite 4 is good. Aside from Marshall, it can contribute in all battles as long as you keep it away from the wrong opponents. If it has Sturdy, it can also be a great counter to Iris’s Focus Sash Dragon Dance Haxorus.
    Additional Comments: You have the option of evolving Onix right away (backtrack to Virbank Complex and use Magnet Pull to fish out Magnemites until you get one holding Metal Coat) or waiting until Chargestone Cave. Onix/Steelix can be a good choice either way, so don’t worry if you don’t want to wait around to evolve it as soon as possible. It is a good idea to give Onix Eviolite while it's unevolved to buff up its defences. If you are unable to evolve it into Steelix... you probably shouldn't be using it! Sturdy is probably the better of its abilities. Rock Head is only good if you want to run Double-Edge, and Sturdy is more useful overall.

    Zangoose: - Mid Tier
    Availability: This is found on Route 7 and has a low encounter rate (5%). It may need a small amount of grinding to catch-up, but thankfully there is a breeder here that can be rebattled that provides HP EVs (meh) and Attack EVs (cool).
    Stats: Zangoose’s stat distribution is ideal for an efficient playthrough thanks to an emphasis on Attack and Speed. 115 Attack is very good and 90 Speed is more than adequate in BW2. However, Zangoose has awful 73/60/60 defences and tends to accumulate damage very quickly.
    Typing: This is probably the worst thing about Zangoose. Although Normal isn’t a bad typing in itself, it effectively robs Zangoose of any possibility of a super-effective STAB, something it would dearly love to have to ensure more kills. Given how frail it is, Zangoose needs to be able to kill things before it gets hit back, and sometimes a neutral STAB attack isn’t enough. Furthermore, Normal’s complete lack of resistances (bar a Ghost immunity) means that Zangoose will be hoping that its bad defences are enough to survive incoming hits (sometimes they aren't).
    Movepool: Normal types are known for their wide movepools and Zangoose is no exception. It gets plenty of STAB options to pick from with Fustration and Return being the best of the bunch. It can complement its STAB with Close Combat and Shadow Claw, which cover all the types that resist Normal. It also gets X-Scissor, Rock Slide, Aerial Ace and the elemental punches, all of which may be useful for particular teams. It has a wide special movepool but has no business using any special moves. Zangoose can use Swords Dance to increase its power although it needs to be careful not to set up in front of something that can kill it straight away.
    Major Battles: This comes down to what you give it. Against Skyla you can use Rock Slide, Shadow Claw (Swoobat) or just its STAB to contribute. Ice Punch can be used for Drayden, but Haxorus may survive and set up Dragon Dance, and Druddigon can hit you with Revenge. Thunderpunch is available for Marlon (and Close Combat for Carracosta). As far as the elite 4 goes, Grimsley is the best match-up thanks to Close Combat, but just watch out for Scrafty and Krookodile’s intimidate.
    Additional Comments: N/A
  21. Flare Blitzle

    Flare Blitzle

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    Heracross can outspeed and one-hit 3/4 of Caitlin's (normal) team with Megahorn...
  22. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    85% of the time.
  23. Flare Blitzle

    Flare Blitzle

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    And? We're not talking about Sheer Cold here, it hits far more than it misses.
  24. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    and if it misses you die to psychic? not to mention she WILL send out sigilyph after losing something

    also the chances of megahorn hitting three things is 61%

    while the chances of darmanitan successfully murdering everything with charcoal flare blitz is 100%

    pick your poison

    although if you agree to 61% that means you probably condone the use of hypnosis as a reliable strategy
  25. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Pretty much that, TM13. Using the argument that Heracross can beat Caitlin means nothing when Scrafty can do that against all four of her Pokemon with STAB Crunch. He also can solo Shauntel regardless of Moxie Boosts, and only has trouble against Grimsley's own Scrafty thanks to being weak against itself. Obviously you're not using a Dark type against Marshal, and Scrafty can do significant damage to Iris' entire team while surviving the one hit that Haxorus is going to get no matter what (because Focus Sash). I don't think Heracross can boast the same thing.

    Wide Lens boosts HJK's accuracy to 99 percent. 130 Base Power is excellent; why have we been saying that HJK sucks because we "can't" throw Expert Belt on instead?

    Koffing had a painful shit period before it evolved; I never encountered a real shit period with Scraggy. It rarely ever died because it was too busy killing things to die.

    Also, lol at saying that Scraggy's stats suck when it has Base 75 Attack, Base 70 defense and a great Duel STAB combination. 348 is more than a lot of Pokemon have as a base form, guys.

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