Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

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If Purrloin/Liepard are in their own tier, Raticate has a lower BST than Liepard. On top of that, Liepard has an alright SpA stat, so if you really wanted to give it some special moves, it would be fine. The only thing that really holds Liepard back is that it doesn't learn a lot of dark type moves and it's frail. That was really the reasoning behind my tier placement. In the long run, yes, Raticate is really not that good. It comes at a point where you should already have a normal type if you choose to use one (Herdier or Watchog), and it really is entirely too weak to stand up to two or more attacks. Saying "it can SD" or "it's good with Guts/Flame Orb" doesnt mean anything when it dies so easily.
Liepard's usable special movepool can be counted with just a hand (Dark Pulse, Hyper Voice, Hidden Power/Hyper Beam if you really want to stretch it). Not really a good thing imo.

It's worth noting that Liepard is slightly faster/stronger than Raticate, but Raticate has a better STAB move (Return vs. Night Slash) and has things like priority, Guts, etc. It is possible to use SD Raticate to some effect, sure it won't be as good as say, Minccino killing everything with Tail Slap, but it is a plus for Raticate.

Also 64/50/50 bulk isn't anything better than 55/60/70 bulk and Raticate can actually do stuff like SD/Guts, which Liepard lacks access to. In the end, the only thing that Liepard really gets is availability (seriously if it can do anything between it and Rattata this would be something) and a slightly higher speed stat, which isn't very significant for in-game purposes.

Having priority attacks is also a plus for Raticate as it allows it to do some decent damage while outrunning, and you also need to note that Watchog and Herdier lack priority.
 
I guess Liepard's access to Nasty Plot makes him very good at sweeping for the E4? It wishes it could have access to better special moves though.

88/88/106 offences are pretty high though; if it were a GSC or FR/LG Pokemon, it would be ranked more highly than low/bottom tier.
 
Liepard's usable special movepool can be counted with just a hand (Dark Pulse, Hyper Voice, Hidden Power/Hyper Beam if you really want to stretch it). Not really a good thing imo.

It's worth noting that Liepard is slightly faster/stronger than Raticate, but Raticate has a better STAB move (Return vs. Night Slash) and has things like priority, Guts, etc. It is possible to use SD Raticate to some effect, sure it won't be as good as say, Minccino killing everything with Tail Slap, but it is a plus for Raticate.

Also 64/50/50 bulk isn't anything better than 55/60/70 bulk and Raticate can actually do stuff like SD/Guts, which Liepard lacks access to. In the end, the only thing that Liepard really gets is availability (seriously if it can do anything between it and Rattata this would be something) and a slightly higher speed stat, which isn't very significant for in-game purposes.

Having priority attacks is also a plus for Raticate as it allows it to do some decent damage while outrunning, and you also need to note that Watchog and Herdier lack priority.
I see Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, and Snarl as viable options too. I'm not saying that 64/50/50 bulk or 55/60/70 bulk are good, that's my point. Raticate can't do SD if it dies easily and you get Flame Orb mid-game, so I fail to see why that's taken into consideration. My point was, that if Liepard has its own fail tier, and Raticate is worse stat-wise and movewise, aside from having priority in Sucker Punch...why isn't it in the same tier?
 
I see Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, and Snarl as viable options too. I'm not saying that 64/50/50 bulk or 55/60/70 bulk are good, that's my point. Raticate can't do SD if it dies easily and you get Flame Orb mid-game, so I fail to see why that's taken into consideration. My point was, that if Liepard has its own fail tier, and Raticate is worse stat-wise and movewise, aside from having priority in Sucker Punch...why isn't it in the same tier?
Get into your nuke shelters, because I'm siding with TM13 for once.

Shadow Ball has redundant coverage with Dark Pulse

Grass Knot doesn't hit for full power most of the time, and it's not really going to outdamage Dark Pulse all that often

Snarl is laughable compared to Dark Pulse.

Raticate actually does something when compared to Liepard. It damages things far better and is faster, if memory serves. That, with Sucker Punch, makes it a ton better than Liepard
 
Isn't Grass Knot a postgame TM in BW2?

SD and Guts should definitely be taken into account, because if Raticate a) outspeeds, b) can take one hit, c) OHKOs after an SD, he can definitely sweep an opponent. You can then heal him after battle. Even Magnemite and Scraggy need healing in this game. Midgame availability of an important offensive option shouldn't be ignored because there's still a half of the game ahead.
 
SD, Guts, and STAB Return means that Raticate is actually stronger than what its stats suggest, and Liepard's sole advantage is a higher speed stat, which Raticate can bypass with his access to priority attacks.

Here, everything I've mentioned so far, condensed into one nice, delicious, bite-sized sentence. :)
 
Grimer for Bottom Tier
Edit: Low tier

Muk is a cool Pokemon. Unfortunately, its flaws are many, including...

1. Bad Typing-- It's bad enough that he'll be absolutely destroyed by Clay and Caitlin, but the poison type is synonomous with bad coverage, since it only hits grass super effectively. In BW2 there are no grass type gym leaders/E4, so it only is advantageous against random trainers. In other words, if an ingame trainer attacks you with their ever-menacing Sunkern, Grimer's your guy. But if you're honestly going through the game without a Darumaka or some other super awesome fire type that could do the job better, you're doing it wrong.

2. Bad movepool-- Grimer's level-up movepool essentially consists of poison moves and Mud Bomb. Once again, grass types ingame aren't that hard to deal with anyway, so it's somewhat outclassed in this regard. Never fear though, because Grimer also gets the elemental punches through move tutors! And Lucario. And Electabuzz. And basically everything with hands. Not only that, but wouldn't you much rather use your shards to get useable attacks for your Volcarona? At least it has Mud Bomb to deal with steels.

3. It doesn't get any better from there-- The biggest issue with Grimer is the fact that it doesn't evolve until level 38. 38. In other words, you'll be stuck with bad stats until around the time that you face Drayden, meaning it'll be basically impossible to train. Once it does evolve though, you end up with something with stats comparable to Gurdurr with a worse movepool and type.

Grimer, quite frankly, stinks. It adds nothing in the way of "wow" coverage, and it's hardly remarkable anywhere else either. Because of this, Grimer is strictly a bottom tier pokemon.
 
Comparing pokemon means that post is already redundant, by the way.
Anyway, grimer is no where near as bad as you said he was. It's like with the purrloin tier rattata, I'm sure you have never used one.

Grimer has a very usable special defense stat, and many moves that allow you to poison as well as dealing damage. Now stall may not be popular in-game, but what does it matter? If it's unpopular it doesn't mean it's bad, (I loved my forretress >:() and grimer is very good at specially walling. It may be offensively good on one pokemon, but it only weak to two and one is pretty rare on anything other than the psychic trainer class so you can work around that. Moreover what does it matter if lucario learns elemental punches (not fire punch though) if muk/grimer also execute it very well? Grimer gets a fairly early priority attack (iirc) which can make it a great avenger as well.
So grimer should definitely be low rank. Not great offensively but has pretty decent coverage. has some nice walling capabilities as well. It evolves a bit late which also hurts it, but overall not a terrible pokemon and definitely should not be bottom. Mid tier would be stretching it, but overall low fits it perfectly, so yeah.
 
Yes I have used one. I just had a hard time training it, since using up shards to get ice punch is annoying, and it gets hardly anything else of value besides STAB. I see what you're saying though; it can have some uses. Low tier makes a little more sense. Especially when you compare it to the other stuff currently in bottom.
 
Comparing pokemon means that post is already redundant, by the way.
Anyway, grimer is no where near as bad as you said he was. It's like with the purrloin tier rattata, I'm sure you have never used one.

Grimer has a very usable special defense stat, and many moves that allow you to poison as well as dealing damage. Now stall may not be popular in-game, but what does it matter? If it's unpopular it doesn't mean it's bad, (I loved my forretress >:() and grimer is very good at specially walling. It may be offensively good on one pokemon, but it only weak to two and one is pretty rare on anything other than the psychic trainer class so you can work around that. Moreover what does it matter if lucario learns elemental punches (not fire punch though) if muk/grimer also execute it very well? Grimer gets a fairly early priority attack (iirc) which can make it a great avenger as well.
So grimer should definitely be low rank. Not great offensively but has pretty decent coverage. has some nice walling capabilities as well. It evolves a bit late which also hurts it, but overall not a terrible pokemon and definitely should not be bottom. Mid tier would be stretching it, but overall low fits it perfectly, so yeah.
This is something I seriously have an issue with. If you even hint at comparing Pokemon, BAM, your post doesn't count. What in the flying fuck is the point of a tier list if we're not comparing Pokemon? Isn't that what a tier list is for? Frankly, this is why we're not getting anywhere and why this tier list isn't nearly as accurate as it could be. We don't have a control group of Pokemon we can compare other Pokemon to. It would be so much easier in figuring out just where a Pokemon goes. Is this thing significantly more useful in game than this Pokemon? Then it probably shouldn't be in the same tier, huh?

But no, every time it's brought up, someone has to come over and say "Your post sucks, your analysis sucks because you compared two Pokemon". It's hypocritical, to be honest, and frankly, idiotic.

Sorry if I sound inflammatory, but seriously, explain the point of a tier list that doesn't compare Pokemon.
 
This is something I seriously have an issue with. If you even hint at comparing Pokemon, BAM, your post doesn't count. What in the flying fuck is the point of a tier list if we're not comparing Pokemon? Isn't that what a tier list is for? Frankly, this is why we're not getting anywhere and why this tier list isn't nearly as accurate as it could be. We don't have a control group of Pokemon we can compare other Pokemon to. It would be so much easier in figuring out just where a Pokemon goes. Is this thing significantly more useful in game than this Pokemon? Then it probably shouldn't be in the same tier, huh?

But no, every time it's brought up, someone has to come over and say "Your post sucks, your analysis sucks because you compared two Pokemon". It's hypocritical, to be honest, and frankly, idiotic.

Sorry if I sound inflammatory, but seriously, explain the point of a tier list that doesn't compare Pokemon.
Actually it's not about comparing Pokemon, but rather, rating Pokemon by their own merits. The original post does state that it has craptastic coverage (poison/ground isn't really that good), lack of notable use against any gym leader (there's no fire leader and grimer is pretty bad for elesa)

What the post didn't mention though, is Grimer's decent utility early on in the Poison Gas + Venoshock combo, which is also one of your stronger attacks early on. Grimer also gets Sludge Bomb around Elesa, so it's not at all shit tier like Purrloin.

I think we still should consider Muk's access to E-punches, because for what it's worth it IS still something that Muk can get, and Muk is as entitled to them as any other Pokemon that can get it like Lucario and Electabuzz.

You could also say that Koffing does the same shit and arguably better too with Weezing's later access to Fire Blast/Thunder and Earthquake immunity, but Koffing's irrelevant to this
 
It hasn't been discussed anywhere and it's not listed in the first post as obtainable but Vulpix and consequently Ninetales are available from the Abundant Shrine which you can access after you get Waterfall from N at the entrance to Victory Road. Coming around level 37 in the dark grass. I encountered it in my most recent playthrough when looking for TM92 Trick Room but had no room for a fire type in my party at this point in the game and honestly since Vulpix comes so late the only thing it's useful for is non-STAB ghost/dark move coverage against Caitlin/Shauntal and non-stab psychic coverage vs Marshal.

I'm mostly just posting this for the information since, again, it's not listed in the thread anywhere.
 
Instinctively I'd put it in Bottom, on the grounds of it being very underlevelled, having no significant advantages in the final important battles and being very out of the way.
 
It does seem kinda strange that the Pokemon and trainers in the shrine are set to the levels of Route 14 Pokemon, suggesting that the Abundant Shrine was indeed meant to be visitable on the first visit to Route 14. Bad developer oversight, I suppose.
 
Grimer for Bottom Tier
Edit: Low tier

Muk is a cool Pokemon. Unfortunately, its flaws are many, including...

1. Bad Typing-- It's bad enough that he'll be absolutely destroyed by Clay and Caitlin, but the poison type is synonomous with bad coverage, since it only hits grass super effectively. In BW2 there are no grass type gym leaders/E4, so it only is advantageous against random trainers. In other words, if an ingame trainer attacks you with their ever-menacing Sunkern, Grimer's your guy. But if you're honestly going through the game without a Darumaka or some other super awesome fire type that could do the job better, you're doing it wrong.

2. Bad movepool-- Grimer's level-up movepool essentially consists of poison moves and Mud Bomb. Once again, grass types ingame aren't that hard to deal with anyway, so it's somewhat outclassed in this regard. Never fear though, because Grimer also gets the elemental punches through move tutors! And Lucario. And Electabuzz. And basically everything with hands. Not only that, but wouldn't you much rather use your shards to get useable attacks for your Volcarona? At least it has Mud Bomb to deal with steels.

3. It doesn't get any better from there-- The biggest issue with Grimer is the fact that it doesn't evolve until level 38. 38. In other words, you'll be stuck with bad stats until around the time that you face Drayden, meaning it'll be basically impossible to train. Once it does evolve though, you end up with something with stats comparable to Gurdurr with a worse movepool and type.

Grimer, quite frankly, stinks. It adds nothing in the way of "wow" coverage, and it's hardly remarkable anywhere else either. Because of this, Grimer is strictly a bottom tier pokemon.
Actually Muk has 95 more points in his BST than Gurdurr and has only 5 less than Conkeldurr

Edit: TM13 in BW and BW2 you dont need badges to use HMs so if you already have Waterfall you can go to Abundant Shrine
 
It hasn't been discussed anywhere and it's not listed in the first post as obtainable but Vulpix and consequently Ninetales are available from the Abundant Shrine which you can access after you get Waterfall from N at the entrance to Victory Road. Coming around level 37 in the dark grass. I encountered it in my most recent playthrough when looking for TM92 Trick Room but had no room for a fire type in my party at this point in the game and honestly since Vulpix comes so late the only thing it's useful for is non-STAB ghost/dark move coverage against Caitlin/Shauntal and non-stab psychic coverage vs Marshal.

I'm mostly just posting this for the information since, again, it's not listed in the thread anywhere.
I would reckon to put it in Low. While being really underleveled, it is possible to get a Drought Ninetales on a team pre-E4, meaning you could potentially run a powerful Sun-team going into the E4, which they aren't really prepared for at all. Additionally, STAB Fire-type moves help subtsantially in the Sun, and you can easily Audino grind in the Route 22 grass against Level 50+ Audinos.
 

breh

強いだね
I would reckon to put it in Low. While being really underleveled, it is possible to get a Drought Ninetales on a team pre-E4, meaning you could potentially run a powerful Sun-team going into the E4, which they aren't really prepared for at all. Additionally, STAB Fire-type moves help subtsantially in the Sun, and you can easily Audino grind in the Route 22 grass against Level 50+ Audinos.
I thought this list doesn't rank DW mons (bar Cinccino) ?_?

In any case, I feel like low is probably not the most accurate ranking:

You get Vuplix at level 37 with Flamethrower. Giving it two more levels nets you Extrasensory. Give it a Fire Stone and then tutor it Nasty Plot and tm it WoW. At that point, I'd say you have something pretty good, running a set of Flamethrower / Nasty Plot / Extrasensory / WoW.
 
TM13 in BW and BW2 you dont need badges to use HMs so if you already have Waterfall you can go to Abundant Shrine
the problem is not having the badge to use waterfall but rather the HM itself not existing until just before you're entering Victory Road >.>"

also honestly i don't think vulpix can go anywhere higher than bottom unless not existing until just before the E4 and coming at least fifteen levels underlevelled is somehow a positive factor

extrasensory and dark pulse are plus points though, and probably energy ball might work better :/
 

breh

強いだね
the problem is not having the badge to use waterfall but rather the HM itself not existing until just before you're entering Victory Road >.>"

also honestly i don't think vulpix can go anywhere higher than bottom unless not existing until just before the E4 and coming at least fifteen levels underlevelled is somehow a positive factor

extrasensory and dark pulse are plus points though, and probably energy ball might work better :/
I dunno, I think you're being a bit harsh. It has decent offensive prowess and although I agree that it's underleveled, it's still decent and can be audino ground up if you so desire. It is unfortunate that it comes as late as it does; I hadn't realized that it came only after waterfall.
 
It can re-learn Nasty Plot and sweep Shauntal and Caitlin, which is better than some can boast. Though taking into account the optional backtracking and training, not to mention very late availability, it's difficult to say whether it's Low or Bottom.

I think Ninetales, when given the chance, is still superior to some other options that only become available lategame (like, about most of them).

Still not as good as Gliscor or Sawk though.
 
It can re-learn Nasty Plot and sweep Shauntal and Caitlin, which is better than some can boast. Though taking into account the optional backtracking and training, not to mention very late availability, it's difficult to say whether it's Low or Bottom.

I think Ninetales, when given the chance, is still superior to some other options that only become available lategame (like, about most of them).

Still not as good as Gliscor or Sawk though.
Despite the fucking twenty levels of grinding you need to do to catch Vulpix up? Granted, Audino and the Lucky Egg exist, but that is still pretty ridiculous. No way it can be considered above Bottom.
 
Guys, Vulpix is bottom, it just is. You only get it before the E4 by going WAY out of your way and then you get it more than 20 levels under-leveled.

If it doesn't end up bottom I will have lost faith in this thread. :/
 
Alright, so this has been sitting here for awhile now iwth no activity, and as I said last time I posted I'll be bringing some Pokémon for immediate placing.

These are:


Vulpix for Bottom Tier


Bronzor for Bottom Tier


Cobalion for High Tier


Virizion for High Tier


Terrakion for High Tier

As always, I'll leave this open for discussion for a few days, and if you want my justification for these proposed tiers, I'll happily give it to you.
 

DHR-107

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Guys, Vulpix is bottom, it just is. You only get it before the E4 by going WAY out of your way and then you get it more than 20 levels under-leveled.

If it doesn't end up bottom I will have lost faith in this thread. :/
I actually have a Drought Vulpix in my current W2 game... Even having it earlier makes no difference. Flame burst in Sun (Which is the best move I have atm) doesn't even 3HKO Audinos of similar levels... It really doesn't do all that much for my team apart from delivering Sun (My team is designed around Drought).

God knows how bad it would be without the Drought boost D: I would def agree that Vulpix is bottom due to it coming so late and it lacking a lot of firepower.
 
I don't know about Terrakion for high, I don't know but it comes just before the eight gym which is late and it also struggles against it. Yes it can destroy giant chasm, but it struggles again against Caitlin, Shauntal and probably Marshall, but it can destroy Grimsley
 
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