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Pokémon Colosseum In-game Tier List

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Karxrida, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Approved by Jellicent
    Co-run by OrangeGuru
    OP adapted from sin(pi)'s Diamond and Pearl In-Game Tiers thread, which itself was based on Its_A_Random's XY In-Game Tiers thread

    [​IMG]
    Pokémon Colosseum
    In-Game Tier List Discussion​

    What is an in-game tier list?
    In-game tier lists rank Pokémon according to their usefulness during the main portion of the game — that is, until the credits roll for the first time. In-game tier lists provide players with the information needed to complete the game as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. For competitively-minded players, this approach to playing the game gives them more immediate access to useful items, TMs, and HMs.

    What are the tiers?
    In this in-game tier list there will be 4 tiers (Or possibly more). Pokémon that are the most useful belong in the Top Tier, while Pokémon that are the least useful belong in the Bottom Tier. The tiers are as follows:

    - S Tier
    - A Tier
    - B Tier
    - C Tier
    - D Tier
    - E Tier
    - F Tier

    Pokémon are tiered based on several factors:
    - Availability: When the Pokémon can be first found. Earlier Pokémon (i.e. anything captured before The Under) will more than likely rank higher due to Shadow Pokémon mechanics.
    - Typing: What is the Pokémon's typing and how useful it is in the game. More useful typings tend to rank higher.
    - Stats: What their base stats are like and how they contribute to a team. Pokémon with better stats for in-game runs tend to rank higher.
    - Movepool: What the Pokémon's movepool is like and how it contributes to a team. Pokémon with wider and more useful movepools tend to rank higher.
    - Major Battles: How the Pokémon fares against key match-ups in the game. Pokémon who perform better against more major battles tend to rank higher.
    - Other: Other aesthetics like abilities, levels, can minorly contribute to a Pokémon's tiering as well. Note that a Pokémon's physical appearance has no impact on its tiering!

    Basically, Pokémon who are ranked higher in the tier list tend to be found earlier in the game (or at a higher level), can win more match-ups from the game's various trainers (including the Admins), and have stronger movepools (usually starting out with good moves and getting good level-up moves). They may have other useful qualities, such as more useful abilities, faster growth, or self-healing moves.

    Note that tier descriptors are just a guideline, they are not meant as laws to be strictly enforced.

    Which Pokémon are available in Pokémon Colosseum?
    (WIP)
    Colosseum is unique due to its very small available pool of Pokémon and the fact that every one is a guaranteed encounter. There are only 52 Pokémon available, with 48 being Shadow Pokémon and several of them being postgame only. Below is the list of every Pokémon you can obtain, listed roughly by order of when they are first encountered. All in-game gifts are listed.

    Availability (CONTAINS SPOILERS) (open)

    Pokémon marked by an asterisk (*) are gifts.

    Starters
    Espeon
    Umbreon

    Phenac City
    Mukuhita
    Bayleaf
    Quilava
    Crocanaw

    Pyrite Town
    Noctowl
    Flaaffy
    Skiploom
    Quagsire
    Misdreavus
    Slugma
    Furret
    Yanma
    Remoraid
    Mantine
    Qwilfish
    Medetite
    Dunsparce
    Swablu
    Sudowoodo
    Plusle*

    Agate Village
    Hitmontop

    Mt. Battle
    Entei

    The Under
    Ledian
    Suicune
    Gligar
    Stantler
    Piloswine
    Sneasel

    Shadow Pokémon Lab
    Aipom
    Murkrow
    Forretress
    Granbull
    Ariados
    Vibrava
    Raikou

    Relgam Tower
    Sunflora
    Delibird
    Heracross
    Skarmory
    Miltank
    Absol
    Houndoom
    Tropius
    Metagross
    Tyranitar

    Team Snagem Hideout
    Smeargle
    Ursaring

    Deep Colosseum
    Shuckle

    Outskirt Stand
    Togetic

    Other
    Ho-Oh*
    Scizor*



    Untiered Pokémon
    Untiered (open)

    Tyranitar - Last Pokémon fought and caught before credits, which makes using it pretty much impossible
    Smeargle - Not available until Postgame
    Ursaring - Not available until Postgame
    Shuckle - Not available until Postgame
    Togetic - Not available until Postgame and is literally the last thing you catch
    Ho-Oh - Not available until Postgame
    Scizor - Requires E-Reader


    What is, and what is not being tiered?
    A Pokémon that is not being tiered is not being so if:
    -They come from an event
    -They cannot be captured/obtained until the postgame
    -They cannot be caught in-game

    Trade Evolution
    Pokémon with trade evolutions will be tiered separately, one entry for "with trading" and one for "without". If both with and without are classed in the same tier after most things are tiered, they may be merged.

    Current Rankings
    These can be found in the next few posts.

    Formatting
    Use the following format when submitting a write-up for a Pokémon. Make sure to use the Ruby and Sapphire sprites.

    [IMG]<Sprite URL>[/IMG]
    [B]Name
    Availability:[/B] When does this Pokémon become available? Is it easy or hard to catch?
    [B]Stats:[/B] Describe how a Pokémon's stats make it excel. Is it a deadly sweeper or a strong wall? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
    [B]Typing:[/B] Discuss this Pokémon's typing in a sentence or two. Is its STAB efficient or not, does it have any great resistances or glaring weaknesses?
    [B]Movepool:[/B] Describe this Pokémon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options from purification and through level up? Is it over-reliant on TMs to function?
    [B]Major Battles:[/B] Describe how the Pokémon handles the major opponents throughout the game. Notable opponents and battles include Admins and battles against various (named) members of Cipher that are notably difficult.
    [B]Additional Comments:[/B] Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here, as well as (opportunity) cost - does it require constant healing, highly sought-after TMs (eg Earthquake), or expensive Game Corner items, for example? The entry can be wrapped up here as well.

    Please write professionally.

    Some guidelines to follow:
    - We are allowing the infinite ball glitch.
    - Due to the heavy investment required to make later Shadow Pokémon usable, you are allowed to propose or argue tier placements based on whether or not a Pokémon is outclassed by something else.
    - There are two Time Flutes that instantly purify a Shadow Pokémon when used. Remember to mention if something is a good Time Flute candidate or not.
    - Remember that there are 3 free Rare Candies given to you. Some Pokémon (like Vibrava) may appreciate the level boost.
    - Have fun!

    Feel free to dispute and discuss other users submissions, but please, no flaming. Normal forum rules apply here. Finally, this is not the place to talk about the games in general.

    This will be done in a few phases. First, initial tiering and placing, then writing up the entries, then finally reviewing placings and write-ups. Then we will attempt to get it on-site.

    Resources
    http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/col_ingametiers
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  2. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    S-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the game. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon typically show up very early on and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.

    Pokémon (open)
    Croconaw
    Espeon


    A-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be very high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed, but either have some visible flaws that hurt their efficiency or have their usefulness counterbalanced by a late arrival.

    Pokémon (open)
    Entei
    Flaaffy
    Mukuhita
    Quagsire
    Quilava
    Raikou
    Suicune
    Umbreon
    Vibrava


    B-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.

    Pokémon (open)
    Bayleef
    Furret
    Meditite
    Skiploom


    C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

    Pokémon (open)
    Granbull
    Hitmontop
    Misdreavus
    Stantler
    Swablu


    D-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late.

    Pokémon (open)
    Forretress
    Noctowl
    Piloswine
    Qwifish
    Sudowoodo


    E-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are generally only able to OHKO or 2HKO specific opponents and suffer from being matchup-based, generally relying on items to assist in sweeping several opponents. These Pokémon either have flaws that outshine its strengths or are otherwise decent Pokémon that come too late to be of any major use.

    Pokémon (open)
    Ariados
    Heracross
    Mantine
    Remoraid
    Skarmory
    Slugma
    Plusle


    F-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the worst efficiency of those available in irrespective of their availability. These Pokémon outright lose a lot of 1v1 matchups at like levels unless they are assisted with significant item support, or are otherwise ridiculously inefficient due to late captures, horrible movepools, etc. The flaws of these Pokémon completely mask whatever advantage they could possibly have and hence, should never be considered seriously for an efficient run-through of Colosseum.

    Pokémon (open)
    Absol
    Aipom
    Delibird
    Dunsparce
    Gligar
    Houndoom
    Ledian
    Metagross
    Miltank
    Murkrow
    Sneasel
    Sunflora
    Tropius
    Yanma
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
    Colonel M likes this.
  3. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    The Time Flute

    The Time Flute is an item that instantly purifies any Shadow Pokémon it is used on if they are taken to the shrine in Agate Village. 3 of them exist in Colosseum, with 2 being available before the final boss and they require minimal effort to obtain. Pokémon that have strong attributes but would otherwise be unusable or inefficient due to lateness become viable if the Time Flute is used on them, making it an important item for efficient playthroughs.

    The following Pokémon are good candidates for the Time Flute.
    Pokémon (open)
    Entei
    Raikou
    Suicune
    Vibrava
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
    Colonel M likes this.
  4. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    TMs

    TMs in Colosseum are actually difficult to get a hold of, and some are even missing. Due to this, here is a compendium of all TMs available (or not) in the game and how to get them.
    Missing TMs (open)
    TM 03 Water Pulse
    TM 04 Calm Mind
    TM 08 Bulk Up
    TM 09 Bullet Seed
    TM 21 Frustration
    TM 28 Dig
    TM 34 Shock Wave
    TM 39 Rock Tomb
    TM 40 Aerial Ace
    TM 42 Facade
    TM 43 Secret Power
    TM 50 Overheat


    This is the list of TMs you get throughout the story that don't require Colosseums.
    Freebie TMs (open)
    This list is organized by the order in which the TMs can be obtained.
    TM 41 Torment - Phenac City, gift from beating Roller Boy Kaib
    TM 27 Return - Phenac City, gift for beating Gym Leader Justy (don't do immediately because his Pokémon are in the 40's)
    TM 46 Thief - Pyrite Town, jail cell in Police Station
    TM 06 Toxic - Pyrite Town, story gift for beating the scripted Pyrite Colosseum matches
    TM 49 Snatch - Pyrite Town, in room behind Cipher Admin Miror B. after you beat him
    TM 47 Steel Wing - Mt. Battle, in chest found in reception area after beating Cipher Admin Dakim
    TM 45 Attract - The Under, in chest after beating Cipher Admin Venus
    TM 26 Earthquake - Shadow Pokemon Lab, in chest after beating Cipher Admin Ein


    List of TMs you can buy.
    Purchasable TMs (open)
    Mt. Battle (requires grinding Coupons and thus not efficient)
    TM 13 Ice Beam
    TM 24 Thunderbolt
    TM 29 Psychic
    TM 32 Double Team
    TM 35 Flamethrower

    The Under
    TM 10 Hidden Power
    TM 14 Blizzard
    TM 15 Hyper Beam
    TM 16 Light Screen
    TM 17 Protect
    TM 20 Safeguard
    TM 25 Thunder
    TM 33 Reflect
    TM 35 Fire Blast


    List of TMs that are won from Colossuems. Note that attempting to obtain most of these is not very efficient due to the high Pokémon levels of certain Colosseums.
    Colosseum Prize TMs (open)
    Phenac City
    TM 18 Rain Dance - Round 1
    TM 11 Sunny Day - Round 2
    TM 19 Giga Drain - Round 3
    TM 22 Solarbeam - Round 4

    Pyrite City
    TM 01 Focus Punch - Round 1
    TM 07 Hail - Round 2
    TM 05 Roar - Round 3
    TM 31 Brick Break - Round 4

    The Under
    TM 37 Sandstorm - Round 1
    TM 36 Sludge Bomb - Round 2
    TM 30 Shadow Ball - Round 3
    TM 23 Iron Tail - Round 4

    Deep Colosseum (Postgame only)
    TM 12 Taunt - Round 1
    TM 48 Skill Swap - Round 2
    TM 44 Dragon Claw - Round 3
    TM 02 Rest - Round 4
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
    Colonel M likes this.
  5. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Reserved.
  6. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    I still need to alter some things, but we can get the discussion started. Nothing is tiered at the moment so I don't circumvent any potential discussion or create inherent tiering bias.

    I'm also open to changing the number tiers and their definitions if the people take issue with anything.
    OrangeGuru likes this.
  7. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Reserved because I'm paranoid.
    Kurona and OrangeGuru like this.
  8. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Okay so I am actually playing this at the moment with a team of

    Sudowoodo/Starters/Qwilfish/Hariyama and Typhlosion. I've just reached The Under but so far everything is kinda pulling its weight.

    Espeon should easily go S/A tier. Access to Confusion off the bat and it does have a "slow" period between about 32->36 before it gets Psybeam. Definitely feel the comparative weakness of Confusion when the peons start using Evolved mons. After it gets Psybeam though it goes right back up to one shotting almost everything. Especially when boosted by Helping Hand from Umbreon.

    Umbreon will likely be A/B tier. Takes hits incredibly well, and its probably worth spending the Toxic TM on it. Doubles is a lot more fast paced, but sometimes the extra damage stacks from Toxic can really help out Umbreon's lowish offences. It only has Bite (I think? I can't find anything about it actually having that but I am sure it does) and Faint Attack for a lot of the game. I'd argue that depending on your Gen 2 starter choice, hanging around and getting Sunny Day/Rain Dance is well worth the effort and Umbreon has the moveslots to be able to use it well even though the G2 starters themselves come with a weather move.

    On Gen 2 Starters: I used Feraligtr in my first game (all those moons ago) tied up with Rain Dance Raikou. Surf becomes incredibly potent even from Feraligtr's mediocre Special Attack with the Rain Boost and Raikou can fire off Thunders/Thunderbolts with ease. Raikou is definitely something worth thinking about for the use of a Time Flute in my opinion. Typhlosion has been OK so far, Sunny Day + Flame Wheel has been doing serious hits, and Dig is great for coverage against Rock types. It was much fun blocking Miror B from Rain Dancing with his Ludicolo's (although this was an incredibly risky play vs those guys). I'd probably go for B tier for Typhlosion at the moment.

    Hariyama is powerful, but doesn't really feel like its carrying its weight at the moment. Cross Chop is unreliable, but Vital Throw has been a god send against trainers who spam Double Team (there are a few).

    Sudowoodo/Qwilfish will probably be C/D tier. Both are useful and have decent moves/bulk but big downsides. I got Poison Point on my Qwilfish (not sure if Abilities are fixed), but Swift Swim would have likely been more useful coupled with Rain Dance. Qwilfish desperately wants that Sludge Bomb TM but I haven't reached that far yet (my team is 39 or so, Under Round 2 is mid 50's). It also wants Ice Beam too, but again lots of grinding required. Sudowoodo getting access to Rock Slide off the bat is nice as its a decent move in Doubles. Shame he's not really fast enough to abuse the Flinch proc, but otherwise Sudo has been doing OK. I'll probably end up teaching it Return for another decently strong move.

    Team has very little synergy as a doubles squad at the moment, so I am trying to work on that. Colo has a very strict TM pool/Learnset pool and its kinda hard to get moves you want onto various Pokemon. Also the overly constrained Pokemon Selection list does this no favours too. I'd argue that any team that synergies with a weather will always do well in Colo (stacking Fires/Waters/Electrics). Even the massively underlevelled Plusle can rip holes in things towards the end game with Thunder.
    Fireburn and Karxrida like this.
  9. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    I did one of these way back when and I agree it needs some tuning. I don't think there are that many things that could be considered top-tier but here's what I think are the best mons:

    Espeon - Probably the best overall mon in the game. Starter, excellent offense with high SpA and Speed, great supporting capabilities with screens and Helping Hand to buff teammates when it can't do anything itself, decent coverage with Bite. It's inability to cover Dark-types isn't super important because every battle in this game is Dubs so you can just let its partner handle the Dark-type mons.

    Croconaw - Probably the best of the Johto starters since Bayleef sucks and Quilava has to compete with Time Flute!Entei. Croc has an excellent early-game performance with Hyper Mode abuse letting him OHKO a lot of early foes with crit Shadow Rush, and you can get around the potion restrictions with healing machines and colosseum battles. Also has an excellent matchup against Dakim and his highly Water weak team. Has a bit of a midgame slump in The Under but comes back hard lategame once he gets Earthquake and Blizzard TMs. Croc doesn't outright OHKO a lot of stuff after purification but he learns a ton of good moves (Surf, Earthquake, Blizzard) and has valuable coverage + rain/HH support to buff his offense so he's never useless.

    Entei - Entei is only top-tier assuming you use the Mt. Battle Time Flute on it, but it's by far the best candidate for it since it comes at Level 40 and has STAB Fire Blast immediately upon purification. Coverage leaves a bit to be desired but Stomp/Bite are serviceable for awhile, and it can make use of Return for a strong physical move and Solarbeam + its natural Sunny Day to become a nuke and turn the tables on the rain-based teams that Ein/Miror B like to use.

    Quilava is comparable to Entei since The Under sells Fire Blast TMs. While Typhlosion has better SpA and comes earlier, Entei has superior bulk and Attack and requires no investment to get running aside from a Time Flute that realistically is going to either it or Suicune. Quilava also has trouble with many early-game opponents, particularly Dakim and Miror B., and by the time Fire starts getting useful you have access to Entei. While technically you could pick Quilava and use the first Time Flute on Suicune, Croc/Entei are better matched for the parts of the games they are available.

    Quilava/Suicune/Makuhita are probably High tier but not Top, Quil and Cune is inferior to Croc/Entei and Makuhita is really bad until purified (and has to rely on Cross Chop which is unreliable). Umbreon kind of sucks past early-game unless you need a sponge to take hits while you heal your attackers.

    On Time Flute usage - you're realistically only going to use it on the Legendary Beasts since its by far the best return on investment due to their high stats and powerful STAB moves that need to be unlocked ASAP. Entei/Suicune are the best candidates for the first one depending on if you picked Croc or Quil, and Raikou likes the second one since the U-Disk is available where you Snag it. You possibly use one on Vibrava, which can give you STAB EQ Flygon for the final area of the game. Everything else comes too late or isn't powerful enough to justify it.
    Dreamox, DHR-107 and Karxrida like this.
  10. pika pal

    pika pal
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    I notice Colosseum has much bigger gaps in viability: Something either rolls over the game or just kinda seems to lose out to the good stuff, and a lot of the mon's are pretty underwhelming compared to XD, and the flatter level progression curve means you don't really have much reason to swap mons out if they come later unless they're something as overpowered as the Beasts.

    I need to play Colosseum again to make an informed contribution, but I definitely remember all my runs that went smoothly used Espeon and Croconaw.
    Karxrida and Fireburn like this.
  11. HotFuzzBall

    HotFuzzBall im bored now
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    Yeah I agree that Colosseum has large gaps in viability since a lot of the mons you can get are pretty bad (Yanma, Aipom, Delibird, etc.). Anyways onto my thoughts on the Pokemon that were on my team during my runs of the game...

    Skiploom/Jumpluff - Jumpluff is pretty underrated imo since it functions as such a great support mon, with access to all 3 powder moves and Leech Seed at its disposal (though Stun Spore, Leech Seed and Poison Powder must be relarned via Heart Sclaes rip). Skiploom is available early on and evolves right away after you purify it. What sold Jumpluff to me was its Speed tier, which basically allowed it to cripple 1 Pokemon early on (granted the move actually lands). Its offensive stats suck so Jumpluff is exclusively a support mon and while its bulk (75/70/85) is alright, Grass/Flying is a pretty bad typing so those are Jumpluff's shortcomings. Though if I were to rank it I would put it in either High-Middle tier since it is still pretty effective as a support mon but, the lack of offensive pressure kinda sucks.

    Flaaffy/Ampharos - Probably a staple in most Colosseum runs from what I have seen. Like Skiploom, Flaaffy is also available early on and evolves right away after getting purified, which is always fantastic. Ampharos/Flaaffy has a lot of things going for it such as access to solid moves such as Thunderbolt upon purification, which is fantastic early on. It also has access to moves such as Light Screen and Thunder Wave but, it lacks offensive coverage. While it does face a ton of competition with Raikou (Raikou is faster and has slightly better bulk), Ampharos is still a very solid choice for an Electric-type due to its early access in the game while also having Thunder Wave to make snagging a lot easier. Overall, I believe Flaaffy is either a Top-High Tier mon in this game.

    Misdreavus - Misdreavus was alright when I used it plus it is the only Ghost-type available in the game. Anyways, Misdreavus is available early in the game learns some pretty good moves early on such as Shadow Ball (shame it's physical during this gen) and Psybeam upon purification. If you are planning on using Misdreavus, you will most likely need to invest in TMs (specifically Psychic and Thunderbolt) to fully maximize its potential. Misdreavus also has access to Confuse Ray and it can utilize filler moves such as Attract or Rain Dance/Sunny Day well, giving it one of the few mons in the game with both an offensive and supportive presence. Really the main downfalls of using Misdreavus is coupon investment but other than that, it is an okay mon. I would probably rank Misdreavus in either High-Middle Tier as well.

    Vibrava/Flygon - Flygon is also another great Pokemon in the game. Vibrava is available around the mid-late portion of the game (it is the second to last Shadow Pokemon in the Shadow Pokemon Lab). Vibrava is pretty difficult train since its stats are terrible (bad offense and defense) but, it becomes worthwhile once it evolves into Flygon and it should be able to evolve right away after purification (if it gains enough EXP). Additionally, the Earthquake TM is also located inside the lab which is quite convenient (though after the boss fight) while having access to both Dragon Breath and Crunch (shame it's special but, Flygon has a usable Special Attack stat) is also pretty handy. I would probably place Vibrava in either Top-High Tier as well, leaning closer towards Top Tier though.

    These Pokemon probably should belong in some sort of "meme/bottom tier"
    • Ledian
    • Delibird
    • Plusle
    • Yanma
    • Aipom
    • Dunsparce
    • Sunflora
    • Shuckle?
    • Togetic?
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
    Karxrida likes this.
  12. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Karxrida Can we transfer this over to the "Lettered" systems everything else uses please as opposed to the "Top/High/Mid" stuff that we used eons ago? We could do with having a consistent system across all the tier lists (and it makes it easier because it becomes similar to the Viability Rankings that the competitive forums use).

    HotFuzzBall I definitely agree those mons should be at the bottom apart from Plusle. It does come at a super low level, but it can give your team a lot of support and doesn't die all the time. Like other electric types, it can nail things with Thunder in Rain and also use helping Hand to power up other Pokemon. I'm not sold on Vibrava, I've never had a good experience using one. Bad movepool, low offences and not great typing. I agree with the other mons you've mentioned though. Especially Ampharos. Having access to Twave is so good in this game and its so useful for capturing mons. I'd say every pokemon should have a non damaging moveslot "spent" so you don't have to keep attacking all the time.
  13. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

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    I recently ran through Colosseum with a team of Umbreon/Espeon/Hariyama/Typhlosion/Ampharos/Flygon. Every member pulled its weight immensely and should be high tier at least. I'll go into each:

    Umbreon - Honestly I feel Umbreon should be top tier; this Pokémon is insanely underrated. The fact that this is a game themed around catching Pokémon means that having a tank with smallish damage output is incredibly useful, as Umbreon can safely wittle down the HP of most Shadow Pokémon without killing them. However, even with its damage output being relatively small, it's not remotely useless in actual combat, as it is one of THE MOST USEFUL Pokémon for hosses in the entire game. Not only are bosses overleveled as fuck in this game, meaning Umbreon is one of the few Pokémon who can easily tank hits for the rest of the team from hard-hitting trainers like Gonzap and Evice, it also comes with Taunt and learns Confuse Ray a mere four levels after obtaining it, and combined those two moves shut down entire strategies of most of the bosses in this game. You have no idea how much easier it is to be able to Taunt Venus and not have her able to pull off her Attract/Confuse Ray/Thunder Wave bullshit. Seriously, by far the most useful support Pokémon in this game hands down, and you get it for free at the beginning of the game. Might honestly be the MVP of my entire team.

    Espeon - Not much to say on Espeon, everyone knows why it is top tier as well. Just wanted to note that while it is an awesome nuke, Reflect is really goddamn important in this game, and Espeon starts with it. Abuse screens! Seriously!

    Hariyama - While it is a very strong Pokémon, I'll concede that it was the weakest link on my team, though I honestly don't believe that's saying much. I opted for it because there aren't a lot of good mixed tanks in Colosseum, and Hariyama gets the job done. I opted for Thick Fat as a result, though sometimes I wonder if I should have went for Guts. It comes with both the strong but slightly inaccurate Cross Chop and the accurate but slow Vital Throw, and I found the two moves combined usually covered for each other's weaknesses, though I did find myself wishing I just had Brick Break for most of the game. It also can't touch ghosts without wasting a turn to use Foresight, but thankfully there aren't many Ghosts in this game, and when they do pop up, I usually just used my teammate to take them out. (This is doubles after all.) TL;DR: Best tank in that it eats hits and hits hard, but it lacks coverage and both its STAB options are a tad unreliable. Still extremely good overall.

    Typhlosion - Yes I did opt against spread damage for a long period of the game because I opted against Feraligatr, but Typhlosion carried its weight so well I didn't even mind. Excellent fast nuke alongside Espeon; Flame Wheel alongside Charcoal does a lot more damage than you would expect, and I was able to OHKO most things well into the late game with it. You also get the Fire Blast TM in the Under about halfway through the main story, and I just fell back on that whenever I felt I needed something dead. Unlike Espeon it doesn't also have support options like Reflect, but I just wanted to have more than one fast and powerful Pokémon on my team (since my final fast member I would be picking up lategame), and Typhlosion never failed me in that department. Not once did I ever regret my decision. I can't compare to Entei since I did not run it, (intentionally opted out of using any of the Beasts since I usually avoid legendaries for main-game runs,) but I would like to point out that it is obtainable much earlier and doesn't need a Time Flute for a fast purify.

    Ampharos - Another Pokémon that should need no explanation. Good mixed bulk, comes with Thunder Wave, learns Thunderbolt immediately upon Purification, is fully evolved one level after you get it, and learns Light Screen without need for a TM. ABUSE SCREENS!

    Flygon - The only thing on my team that shows up late game, but goddamn is it worth it! After purification, Vibrava is two levels away from fully evolving, and after beating Ein, who is the second trainer you fight after you catch it, you get the Earthquake TM. You absolutely HAVE to invest this TM into Flygon to use it, but then you have the fastest and most powerful spread move user in the entire game, complete with a decent defensive presence to boot. You may be concerned with hitting your teammates due to Earthquake, but Protect is a purchasable TM in this game, so I literally just slapped it on every other Pokémon on my team not named Umbreon and turned the final fights + postgame into a joke. Dragonbreath is not bad for catching Pokémon either thanks to Para chance, and Fire Blast is decent coverage, though it won't nuke things like Typhlosion's does. You gotta invest into Flygon for it to put out, but it delivers like a motherfucker.

    Colosseum is a brutal game, but I was able to beat Evice with like... 2 faints? And I was 10 levels lower than him too. Screens + Protect on everything + Flygon Earthquake spam + Umbreon support definitely made for one of the most enjoyable playthroughs I've had in a looong time.

    One last thing: Protect isn't just great for use alongside Flygon. The AI loves to double target in this game for whatever reason, so if you can figure out which Pokémon they intend to double up on, (usually the Pokémon with less defenses,) you can shut down their entire turn with a well-timed Protect. VGC it up and slap Protect on every Pokémon you can, trust me.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
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  14. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Gonna go over everybody's noms later (just got back from work and need a nap), but I wanted to answer this first.
    The main problem I have with using the letter system here is that Colosseum is very lopsided when it comes to Pokémon viability, and placement just gets kind of arbitrary when trying to cover the extra tiers the letter system has over "Top/High/Mid/Bottom".

    I'm not against switching over if others want it, but I feel like it doesn't fit for Colosseum.
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  15. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    There is little justification to use Plusle when it comes later than Level 30 Flaaffy/Ampharos. Heck, it's coming after the first major segment of the game at Level 13 when your starters are Level 26 and the other catchable mons are minimum Level 30. Why would you do that ever when Flaaffy is available? The Thunder TM is purchasable so Plusle's ability to Thunder things isn't unique.

    I'm unsure if capture assistance is being factored into rankings, but if so then Umbreon/Jumpluff increase in value due to their ability to soften things up for Snags. Their combat ability sucks though otherwise, so where they go will be determined by how highly we value that kind of thing.

    Ampharos is good and probably deserves High tier, has a good mix of offense, decent bulk, and good support options and immediately after purification it will evolve and relearn Thunderbolt. Its main weakness is poor Speed, which combined with its Ground weakness will pose a problem against a lot of lategame threats. If you aren't following the bosses levels closely, it may be obsoleted in lategame by Fluted Raikou.

    If I had to rank everything right now I'd probably do something like:

    Top: Espeon/Croconaw/Entei

    High: Quilava/Suicune/Vibrava (with Time Flute)/Raikou/Ampharos/possibly Quagsire/maybe Makuhita

    Mid: Umbreon/Meditite/Hitmontop/Skiploom/Misdreavus/Furret/maybe Stantler/maybe Skarmory

    Bottom: Everything else

    Entei/Suicune/Raikou/Vibrava are the only mons here realistically getting the Time Flute. Most things that come after the first Venus battle are too little too late, with the only exceptions being Vibrava/Raikou.

    Brief explanations for things not already talked about:

    Quagsire - Has lower stats than Feraligatr (especially in Speed) but has STAB Earthquake naturally and Water + Electric immunities can be very helpful against bosses that use rain teams. Does well against Ein and Dakim (though Dakim 2 is packing Solarbeam which can get awkward).

    Meditite - Not as bulky as Makuhita, but its faster and Medicham is very powerful. High Jump Kick still has reliability issues though.

    Hitmontop - The weakest offensively of the three available Fighting-types, its main selling point is Intimidate which is quite useful against many opponents. It also comes at a fairly good level, so if you opted not to use Makuhita or Meditite it wont take long to catch up.

    Misdreavus - The only available Ghost-type and it gets Shadow Ball naturally. Pretty solid to have early game but its usefulness fades as you progress.

    Furret - It has strong moves available (Strength, Iron Tail on purification) which makes it fairly good offensively for awhile, but like Misdreavus its usefulness fades with time.

    Stantler - It has Intimidate and Hypnosis which means it has some utility beyond being a Return beatstick.

    Skarmory - Can wall for a couple turns to heal teammates in endgame fights without needing any investment.

    e: forgot Noctowl, Mid is probably ok for it
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  16. HotFuzzBall

    HotFuzzBall im bored now
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    pretty much agree with everything but, I would say Noctowl should also be in the Mid tier since it comes early and it gets Reflect and Hypnosis, as well as some pretty solid offensive options in Steel Wing (after purification) and Fly (though its base Attack is terrible). Its special bulk is also pretty decent though but, its usefulness will fade over time.

    also adding on that Quagsire receives Surf too which is pretty nice as well
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  17. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Huge post incoming.

    Agreeing on Espeon for Top or S or whatever. It has perfect availability, naturally gets two good support options (Helping Hand and Reflect), and remains consistently good throughout the game.

    Also, how is Umbreon getting Helping Hand? It's not in its base kit and there's no Move Reminder.

    It starts with Bite, can confirm.

    Really iffy on Umbreon being that high. Its usefulness dropped off really quickly for me because its damage output is lacking and it doesn't have good support options (weather is done better by other mons imo). Yeah it's tanky, but I've never felt the need to fall back on it.

    Pretty sure you can't use weather against Miror B. 1 because Johto starters get those moves on purification, which comes after you do that horrible fight.

    I think you're underselling Quilava a bit. It ends up faster and stronger than Entei on top of having earlier availability and not requiring a Time Flute (opening up using it on Suicune).

    Sure.

    See above.

    Quilava has perks over Time Flute Entei and I've never used Croc, but you make some good points here and I can go with Top/S/whatever for Croc.

    Let's be honest, everything sucks against Miror B. 1, not just Quilava. That fight is garbage.

    I'd personally like to rank Entei and Quilava the same. They each have their perks that make it so neither is strictly better than the other outside of the tertiary effects of choosing Quilava over Croc.

    Agreeing for the most part.

    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Vibrava's cool, though, because 3 free Rare Candies mean you can evolve it immediately and wreck face.

    I was using Skiploom during my last (unfinished) playthrough and it was actually really good. Fast Sleep Powder is super useful in general, and its typing actually isn't that bad since it's immune to Earthquake and resists Surf. You can also do quick Sunny Days to boost Typhlosion or Entei, which is cool. I'd like Top but I'm good with High since its offenses are totally ass even as Jumpluff.

    Top imo. Flaaffy has a huge availability advantage over Raikou and puts in more work overall.

    Psychic and Thunderbolt are pretty much no-goes due to requiring massive amounts of Mt. Battle grinding. STAB being Physical is also super lame. Mid at best.

    Free Rare Candies allow for immediate evolution if you hold on to them. STAB Earthquake, good coverage, and good typing make me lean towards Top.

    Shuckle and Togetic are postgame and thus not going to be ranked.

    Otherwise yeah this is the garbage list.

    I'll comment more later.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  18. OM!

    OM!

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    Wasn't houndoom in the game as well? Solar Beam, Fire Blast, etc.
  19. WreckDra

    WreckDra He came home from the war with a party in his head...
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    Yes, the Houndoom is seen in Realgam Tower as Karixrida noted in the OP. While we are on the subject, it is encountered so far into the lategame that it should probably be ranked Bottom Tier unless you absolutely need something to take Shadow Rushes from Tyranitar and the like. Even then there are better Pokemon for doing so that also appear in Realgam Tower anyways. Having the choice of Typhlosion or Entei beforehand would still be a massive viability hit even if it was available earlier.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  20. pika pal

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    How would Houndoom help with Shadow Rushes? In this game, Shadow Rush was neutral on everything, and Houndoom is made of tissue paper. I assume you were thinking of XD where Shadow was SE on regular mons and NVE on Shadows.
  21. WreckDra

    WreckDra He came home from the war with a party in his head...
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    Yeah, I was thinking XD since that is the game I have played over again in the last ten years. Houndoom has no redeeming qualities in my mind then.
  22. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Houndoom is also caught during the gauntlet of fights at the end of the game, so you can't even use it unless you either a) purposefully lose against the Shadow Tropius trainer or b) leave a space open in your party and ignore the other Shadow Pokémon. Even then, the Nascour and Evice fights are literally all that's left.

    Almost nothing in Relgam Tower is worth using bar maybe Skamory, and you get that when there's only 6 fights left before the credits.
  23. Tomy

    Tomy

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    Just right on time, I just finished another Colosseum playthrough!
    I'd like to advocate Misdreavus for High tier.
    On paper, it is a bit eh; its stats are nothing spectacular (in the late game, at least), I agree. However, its natural movepool is actually interesting (Confuse Ray, Shadow Ball, Pain Split), and you can slap on it Thunder if you want a stronger attack to it.
    But the major cornerstone about Misdreavus is its typing. 3 crucial immunities, 2 of them being extremely common, is unvaluable. Everything and their neighbours LOVES to spam Earthquake / Explosion / Self-Destruct (particularly in the late-game), which Misdreavus takes...0 damage. Its mediocre Defense is highly alleviated by the 3 immunities, increasing a lot its survivability.
    And oh, for what it's worth, it levels up quite fast, too.
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  24. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Ranking time. Technically did this earlier, but never made an update for it.

    Top
    Croconaw
    Espeon
    Flaaffy
    High
    Entei
    Mukuhita
    Misdreavus
    Skiploom
    Quilava
    Vibrava

    Middle
    Hitmontop
    Stantler

    Bottom Tier
    Aipom
    Delibird
    Dunsparce
    Sunflora
    Yanma

    Everybody agreed with the three in Top, so it was a no brainer to add them now.

    I put Quilava and Entei in the same rank and High instead of Entei Top because they both have pros and cons and neither is really Top to me due to the cons. Entei still makes a great Time Flute candidate and all, but Fire Blast as your only STAB is lame even if it's powerful.

    Mukuhita generally received good reviews, but everybody acknowledged that it has issues. It's currently in High but I can go for Middle.

    I'm personally not sold on Misdreavus in High, but I'm not the sole authority here and several of you have sung its praises for a good ranking.

    I know Fireburn put Skiploom in Mid, but I think its Speed and Sleep Powder pushes it into High despite its offensive issues. Its typing is also nice for dodging Earthquakes.

    I put Vibrava in High for now because its lateness is definitely something of an issue, and it requires the Rare Candies, Earthquake TM, and a Time Flute to work. It does work wonders, though.

    Hitmontop and Stantler are both Middle because they have Intimidate, which is really useful. Their offensive presence has issues (e.g. Hitomtop is stuck with Triple Kick for STAB), but they're not worthless.

    Bottom is pretty self-explanatory.

    I need to go over Fireburn's ranking list again later for his suggested rankings; I haven't ignored it. I'm also currently unsure about Umbreon due to mixed reactions and Noctowl because it's weird (great for Miror B. 1 but drops off kind of hard afterward).

    Also, does anybody else think I should go over to the Letter ranking system? DHR is the only one to comment on that and I've been thinking about switching over instead of Top/High/Mid/Bottom.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  25. HotFuzzBall

    HotFuzzBall im bored now
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    for consistency's sake I think this tier list should also follow the letter system as well (so far all the other tier lists bar the B2W2 and HGSS follow the letter system). Also I believe we need more than 4 tiers since there are some Pokemon that are still kinda useful (Noctowl, Swablu, Remoraid, Piloswine) but I don't find any of them to be mid or meme/bottom tier mons.

    I don't think Misdreavus should be High tbh, it should be Middle. Misdreavus starts out really strong but, its usefulness does start to fade (to me Misdreavus started being a bit difficult around when you reach the Shadow Pokemon Lab). The only reason why I found success in using it was through investing coupons (T-bolt and Psychic) to it when I used Mt. Battle to purify Shadow mons. So yeah Misdreavus does need some investment and its stats are only slightly above average too but, it is still a pretty solid mon and I think it shares a rank nicely with Hitmontop and Stantler.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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