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Pokémon Diamond, Pearl & Platinum In-game Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by sin(pi), May 9, 2017.

  1. sin(pi)

    sin(pi) lucky n bad

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    qfe. We are only tiering pokemon that are obtainable before you beat Cynthia; everything else is irrelevant for this list.

    On Spiritomb's underground interactions - it is fairly simple to meet 32 people underground if you have access to the second console + game. Entering and exiting your secret base (while blocking the entrance) counts as having left the underground, so you can simply dig a base and have the second game's character stand outside it. You can probably do this in about 10-15 minutes.
  2. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Well, technically it IS possible to get Dual Slot Pokemon during the "main game" before beating Cynthia, since the only requirement for getting the National Dex in DPPt is to see (not catch) every Pokemon in the Sinnoh Dex, which you could do before beating the champion in theory, albeit at the expense of a lot of time investment. I believe this also unlocks the Pal Park and the Pokeradar and all of its Pokemon too (but not Swarms if I remember right).

    I still wouldn't include it on the list though, due to the aforementioned time investment.
  3. Kurona

    Kurona

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    If it IS possible, I think we technically need to include it -- maybe just put 'All GBA slot Pokémon' in F.
  4. sumwun

    sumwun

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    I really think we should not tier post-national Pokedex Pokemon. They are several dozen evolution families that are mostly of average strength and become available the last 15 minutes of the game, so they'd almost always end up in F tier anyway. Because of this, I think post-national Pokedex Pokemon unnecessarily complicate this project. On that note, Onix (yes trade) should be F tier in DP, because in DP, the only way to get a metal coat before getting the national Pokedex is to find a one-in-20 wild steel Pokemon and either catch it or steal its metal coat.
  5. Kurona

    Kurona

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    I think we should treat it the same way as ORAS' national dex. Some might be worth it like the lake pixies were in that game, but most of the time not really.
  6. sumwun

    sumwun

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    ...in what way did they treat ORAS's national dex? I looked on their thread and couldn't find anything about the lake guardians in the OP. Can you explain?
  7. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke what if he kicks the ghost
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    Seeing everything in the Sinnoh Dex before completion of the E4 is extremely unrealistic. There are several Pokemon you encounter only through the E4 including Vespiqeun, Spiritomb, Garchomp, Drapion, and Milotic in DP alone. Plus, unlike ORAS where some national dex stuff is great and available right then and there with basically no sidequesting (Swords of Justice, Pixies, Heatran, Genies) there's nothing like that in DPP.

    Don't bother tiering any dual slot stuff, IMO.
    atsync, Nelson Tangela and Karxrida like this.
  8. Kurona

    Kurona

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    Huh, last time I was there I could have sworn there were talks about at least a couple somewhat useful post-national dex Pokémon like Azelf and Clefairy. My mistake.
  9. sumwun

    sumwun

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    As you may have figured out already, when I analyze an evolution family, I tend to forget about the requirements for evolution. Recently I realized that, if one wanted to use something like Loppuny or Espeon in an efficient run, then they would have to wait until around the last gym, or even past that, to fully evolve the Pokemon, even if it held a soothe bell the whole time. I think I owe you guys an apology for not realizing this earlier, trying to put those evolution families in higher tiers, and wasting your time by having you guys convince me otherwise. Despite your hard work, a few hard-to-evolve Pokemon did end up in high preliminary tiers, due to the fact that sin(pi) made them using my faulty suggestions. The least I can do for you guys now is to take a more careful look at each evolution family and lower the hard-to-evolve Pokemon to where they belong. Below are the nominations.

    B tier
    Budew (shiny stone requires defeating the rival at Canalave City)

    D tier
    Eevee (Espeon)
    Shellos (evolves at level 30, bad offensive stats until then)

    E tier
    Cleffa (moon stone requires defeating Wake)
    Bronzor (evolves at level 33, bad offensive stats until then)
    Croagunk (evolves at level 37)

    I hope you guys can forgive me for being stupid.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  10. Kurona

    Kurona

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    Nowhere near the last gym, no. Usually I have my Eevee evolved into Espeon a gym or two after I get it; good use of Soothe Bells, vitamins and massages make it very easy - and unless you've been making it faint in every single battle, I don't see how it would take that long even if you were just relying on walking and battles.

    It also depends on the Pokémon - to what extent they're able to hold their own, and more importantly what their base friendship is. Zubat is a good example of the former because while Golbat isn't the most amazing thing in the world, it's decent enough to the extent of fully evolving around the same time as your starter if not earlier due to being able to hold its own and being with you for a long while. Cleffa is an extremely good example of the latter as it starts off with a whopping base 140 friendship, meaning it won't be long until it evolves into Clefairy. Buneary is an extremely bad example on the other hand, starting off with base 0 friendship and hence immensely hindering how well you can use it -- not like Lopunny is even a prize worth writing home about anyway.

    Once again this is where experience is very important. When I've used Budew and Eevee (Espeon) on former playthroughs, they've evolved a gym or two after I've gotten them to immediately be useful and not be hindered much by their base forms -- though Budew admittedly gets off much easier due to effectiveness against the first gym and much of Oreburgh mine. Eevee requires a bit more babying so despite how amazing Espeon is I can certainly see it being put a little bit below Alakazam, but nowhere near E - it's such a good Pokémon it shouldn't even be below B.
    OrangeGuru likes this.
  11. sumwun

    sumwun

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    I thought that in really efficient runs, the player isn't supposed to stop for vitamins or massages, and isn't supposed to take a lot of steps, so I only used levels in my calculations. Eevee starts with 70 friendship, gains 7 per level until it goes above 100, then gains 4 per level until it goes above 200, and gains 3 per level after that. It evolves when its friendship goes above 220. After 5 levels, its friendship becomes 105. After 24 more levels, its friendship becomes 201. After 7 more levels, its friendship becomes 222, and then it evolves. 5+24+7=36. Eevee is obtained at level 20, so it evolves at around level 56, which I'm pretty sure would be well past the last gym.
    I tried nominating Zubat for A tier already, and it's still B tier.
    Clefairy is still pretty weak. It remains that way until the player obtains the HM03 surf, unless the player was extremely lucky and found a moon stone held by a wild Pokemon or underground.
    That's exactly why I want it to be E tier.
    When I get time, maybe I should try another Platinum run and counting my steps after receiving the Eevee.
  12. Kurona

    Kurona

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    While the exact nature is subjective, it's very important to note that 'efficient' is not synonymous with 'speedrun', and hence as long as it's helpful and not extremely out of the way; it's not a bad idea to stop and get it. Just throw any vitamins you've picked up at Eevee, take it to the Massage lady as soon as you hit Veilstone, and while you're there buy some more vitamins if you think it's worth it. Ultimately it's up to the player to decide to what extent an 'efficient' playthrough goes, but ultimately the cost of time concerning most friendship-boosting things are so small compared to the payoff as to be completely negligible.

    This is again why calculations will only take you so far. The calculations you've presented are correct - as far as I know anyway, haven't memorised the formulas off by heart or anything - but they fail to account for a huge variety of important factors - the boosts given by vitamins and massages are very significant, as is the amount of steps you accumulate while playing the game. Unless it's something really obvious like Luvdisc or Unown, you need to play with the Pokémon - and/or rely on the experience of other players that have used the Pokémon - to truly judge its viability.
    Karxrida and OrangeGuru like this.
  13. OrangeGuru

    OrangeGuru

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    I have to disagree with this logic. By efficient I don't think anybody here is meaning the absolute fastest way to play a game with exactly X amount of steps. At that point you're speedrunning the game with prob only one pokemon. For me, efficiency means effectively going through the game in a reasonable time by not having to spend extra time in a route or area training a super weak poke that can't hold its own or searching for a specific item or feature (think going underground for a moon stone or grinding for more red shards, etc). A casual stop for a massage or for vitamins while you're in town does not take away from efficiency in my opinion (especially since you can give the HP Ups, Calciums, etc you find lying around to the friendship pokes).

    Yes, try Platinum with Eevee, but don't bother counting the steps (you want to talk about draining efficiency - that seems like a waste of time to count each step; at a minimum, it wouldn't be fun). I agree with Kurona here that experience is vital. I've probably used Eevee (and other friendship evos like Budew) at least once in each game it's available and it evolves quickly enough just playing through the game without taking the minimal number of steps (a normal journey running through grass and through towns will suffice). Again, Pokemon isn't a game where you just plug data into some formula and calculate the success of a pokemon; you need experience so you can talk about mechanics like friendship accordingly

    Edit: sniped lol
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  14. sumwun

    sumwun

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    Have you heard that the Poketch has a pedometer app? It has the app installed from the beginning, meaning I don't have to sidetrack for very long to get it.
  15. OrangeGuru

    OrangeGuru

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    Ah ok, my bad. I forgot about that app because I always use the other ones like Friendship Checker and Dowsing Machine. But my original point about using personal experience rather than some formula still stands
  16. sumwun

    sumwun

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    Yeah, I should probably stop trying to tier friendship evolution Pokemon until I do another run.
  17. sumwun

    sumwun

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    Why is Zubat in B tier in all three games despite this nomination? Did I miss some critical Zubat drawback when writing this nomination? Is it something about the "attack stat on the wrong side of 100" thing?
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  18. Karxrida

    Karxrida People who aren't Blake > Blake
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    Something I just remembered is that I think you can find a Golbat at Level 10 in that first cave (but only in Platinum) after you get Rock Smash, which would significantly impact Zubat's placement because it means an early Crobat. A in Platinum seems appropriate if I'm correct.
  19. Heracr055

    Heracr055

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    You'd probably get Crobat at around the same time as if it were a Zubat tbh, just because of the friendship evolution. I can definitely agree with Golbat in the basement of Oreburgh Gate being an excellent choice in Platinum, and should be tiered separately from Zubat.

    Edit: Agreed with the low encounter rate issue. Just a few questions:
    1) When do Repels become available in Platinum?
    2) Does Golbat appear despite Repel, a la the Repel trick for some Mons in other games?
    3) If Repels become avaliable later and require backtracking, is it worth it to come back later (say from Floraroma Town-ish) and grind an underleveled Golbat to bypass the Zubat stage?
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
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  20. sumwun

    sumwun

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    The encounter rate for Golbat in Oreburgh Gate is only 1%, so it would probably be easier to evolve a Zubat than to find a Golbat in Oreburgh Gate.
    Heracr055 likes this.
  21. Ondore

    Ondore

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    1) Items are based on badges, and Repels come after the first badge.
    2) The Repel will prevent all encounters at L11 or up since Golbat only comes at the highest possible level (10). I don't recall the encounter tables for Platinum to know what that would make the effective encounter rate with a L10.
    3) n/a: Rock Smash and Repels unlock at the same time
  22. Stellar

    Stellar
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    Encounter rate for Golbat in Oreburgh Gate B1F is 5%.
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  23. sumwun

    sumwun

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    30% of the Pokemon there are level 10, so the repel trick increases Golbat's encounter chance to 1/6 if Stellar is right and 1/30 if Bulbapedia is right.
    Bulbapedia article was probably wrong.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  24. sumwun

    sumwun

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    A Zubat can already take down most of Gardenia's team, and evolves into Golbat immediately after Gardenia if not earlier. If one were to compare Zubat to the Oreburgh Gate Golbat, the only time the Golbat would have an advantage is during the Mars battle.
    Golbat requires a certain amount of friendship to evolve. In playthroughs, levels will probably be the single biggest contributor to friendship. For the sake of example, and because I think it's a reasonable estimate, I'll estimate that it takes 30 levels to raise a Zubat/Golbat's friendship enough to get a Crobat. The Zubat in Ravaged Path can come at level 3, which means it can be evolved into Crobat at around level 33. On the other hand, Golbats from Oreburgh Gate come at level 10, which means that it remains a Golbat all the way until around level 40. This means a level 3 Zubat from Ravaged Path may become a Crobat before the player battles the rival at Pastoria City, while the Oreburgh Gate Golbat will still be a Golbat, so the Ravaged Path Zubat will do much better against Wake, Cyrus, and the rival at Pastoria and Canalave Cities. Thus, I think the conventional way to catch and raise Zubat is still better than catching a Golbat at Oreburgh Gate, and the availability of Golbat at Oreburgh Gate shouldn't affect the tiering of the Zubat family.
  25. Silver_Lucario42

    Silver_Lucario42

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    why is psyduck d in dp but b in platinum ?_?

    why is cranidos so high? its attack doesn't really help when its only stab is ancient power until mt. coronet (rock slide tm) or head smash (level 52 if you actually evolve it, 43 if you put up with cranidos's awfulness) and its movepool sucks even outside that. take down and assurance are your strongest moves for quite a while. i remember using this thing in diamond, it was only able to do ok vs. aaron because i taught it fire blast. not the bulkiest thing either

    assuming bidoof is s because of its performance as an hm slave. why is wingull so low then? it can fly, surf, and defog

    jolteon should be a. what really sets it apart from vaporeon/espeon is the purchasable thunder tm in veilstone which is all this thing needs. thunder everything
    OrangeGuru likes this.

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