Pokémon HeartGold & SoulSilver - The Offical Competitive Discussion Thread

[blasphemy1]

Wow I'm liking some of these changes to the lower tiers. Aggron finally has a reason to be used and I'm certain Mismagius/Honchkrow are going to OU now.

And finally, a reason to use Dragonite. Any ExtremeSpeed set ideas?

I had been thinking about one prior to the announcement:

Dragonite @ Focus Sash / Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Rash (+SpA, -SpD)
EV: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Extremespeed
-Fire Blast
-Hidden Power [Grass]

Idea here is that Draco Meteor + Extremespeed takes out any focus sash users, namely Azelf, Aerodactyl, Infernape, Roserade, and Smeargle. Focus Sash can protect you from an immediate Stone Edge from Aerodactyl, but Lum Berry saves you from Roserade/Smeargle leads. Fire Blast handles Metagross in two shots, while Fire Blast + Extremespeed beats Roserade. Hidden Power Grass takes care of Swampert, and HP Grass followed by Draco Meteor beats Hippowdon.

Rash since Heatran isn't in top ten, and it guarantees 2HKO on Hippowdon.

Vs. Top Ten Leads:
Azelf: Draco Meteor + Extremespeed
Metagross: Fire Blast twice
Jirachi: Fire Blast twice, Inner Focus saves you from Iron Head flinchhax
Aerodactyl: Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt + Extremespeed
Swampert: Hidden Power Grass twice
Infernape: Draco Meteor + Extremespeed
Ninjask: Draco Meteor/Fire Blast + Extremespeed
Roserade: Fire Blast + Extremespeed
Smeargle: Draco Meteor + Extremespeed
Hippowdon: Draco Meteor twice

2hkos all leads, running calcs on Hippowdon and Swampert, the only two I am not 100% sure of.

EDIT: HP Grass > Earthquake as Heatran lead usage is dropping.
EDIT #2: HP Grass + Draco Meteor 100% 2HKOs Hippowdon, with Rash.

 

[AJC]

just a reminder

guard swap skarmory is the new blissey!

POWER/GUARD SWAP ATTACK/DEF SWAP BUFFS WITH THE FOE NOT STATS

Power trick is what swaps the users attack and defense

 

[Stallion]

Wait according to a post above Blissey got Encore???? FUCK, forget bloody NP Mismagius and Extremespeed Dragonite, this thing here is going to fuck up the metagame. The one major problem with Blissey was that it was formerly set up bait, well think Shuckle on steroids in this case. Gahh the one change I didn't wanna see :(.

EDIT: Phew thank god there isn't!

Conversely, Brave Bird Ho-Oh makes me all kinds of happy :). People are also underestimating dd crawdaunt and are saying it'll stay NU. Lol it's actually a fun OU ddancer with good defenses and not too many bad weaknessss (well fighting sucks but the only defensive fighting type used in OU is machamp and it's 2hkoed by waterfall. It'll probs be UU though).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

AQUA JET LUVDISC YEA

Okay, now for serious stuff:

Brave Bird will not be especially impressive on Honchkrow IMO, given its slow speed and the huge recoil. I barely even used it on Staraptor, and that's the one that really needs it.

As for Extremespeed Dragonite, the only thing that comes to mind is Choice Band. CB Extremespeed off of Dragonite is just about as strong as Scizor's Bullet Punch, and Dragonite also has Superpower/EQ to ward off Rocks and Steels, Flamethrower to ward off stuff like Skarmory and Bronzong, and nothing especially wants to switch into CB Outrage. DD Extremespeed isn't especially interesting given its bad coverage (and DD removing the need for priority, namely the middling speed). It's too bad Dragonite doesn't get U-turn, it would be the next Scizor-type.

Nasty Plot Mismagius is gonna wreck UU, no doubt about that. Brave Bird probably won't push Honch to BL, but it might prove a nasty surprise from time to time. SD Aqua Jet Feraligatr looks fun as an Azumarill alternative, but at the same time Drumjet Azumarill is also gonna be beastly.

Head Smash Rock Polish Aggron looks fun, but it still has the same problems that any Aggron has, namely crippling weaknesses to Ground and Fighting.

Also strange... why didn't anyone notice Encore Gardevoir/Gallade, Poliwrath, and Primeape? (also golduck but he's lame.) Considering how good a move Encore is, this has the potential to be a little silly.

 

[Coronis]

Why Blissey? Why Encore?

 

[Raistmagic]

AQUA JET LUVDISC YEA

Okay, now for serious stuff:

Brave Bird will not be especially impressive on Honchkrow IMO, given its slow speed and the huge recoil. I barely even used it on Staraptor, and that's the one that really needs it.

As for Extremespeed Dragonite, the only thing that comes to mind is Choice Band. CB Extremespeed off of Dragonite is just about as strong as Scizor's Bullet Punch, and Dragonite also has Superpower/EQ to ward off Rocks and Steels, Flamethrower to ward off stuff like Skarmory and Bronzong, and nothing especially wants to switch into CB Outrage. DD Extremespeed isn't especially interesting given its bad coverage (and DD removing the need for priority, namely the middling speed). It's too bad Dragonite doesn't get U-turn, it would be the next Scizor-type.

Nasty Plot Mismagius is gonna wreck UU, no doubt about that. Brave Bird probably won't push Honch to BL, but it might prove a nasty surprise from time to time. SD Aqua Jet Feraligatr looks fun as an Azumarill alternative, but at the same time Drumjet Azumarill is also gonna be beastly.

Head Smash Rock Polish Aggron looks fun, but it still has the same problems that any Aggron has, namely crippling weaknesses to Ground and Fighting.

Also strange... why didn't anyone notice Encore Gardevoir/Gallade, Poliwrath, and Primeape? (also golduck but he's lame.) Considering how good a move Encore is, this has the potential to be a little silly.

I agree about Honchkrow. Drill Peck is already a great move. Brave Bird won't change it much.

 

[Khyl]

Holy shit some of this stuff has a lot of potential.

Something that no one really bothered noting, but something I find interesting, albeit gimmicky: Aqua Ring on Spheal. If Stallrein was bad before... >_>
But, it'd take up a moveslot that you could be using something like encore, or roar, or something else like that.

Speaking of NU Pokes, there's little reason not to use Quagsire now. And Momento Gardevior just got that much more annoying with encore.

I'm not sure if Aggron is going to push Relicanth out of his niche in NU, as a devastating RP sweeper, as Relicanth has the advantage of Waterfall, but Aggron does have more attack and defense (albeit less hp and speed)

Another slightly trivial thing that no one noticed, Reversal Dugtrio. Although fighting and ground get slightly redundant coverage, it could be worth making a set for, and gives him a possible sweeping option.

 

[Tucker]

Defensive Arcanine is alot better with the addition of Morning Sun to it's movepool.

Aracanine @ Leftovers
EVs: 180 HP/ 56 SpA / 252 Def
Bold Nature
Intimidate
-Flamethrower/ Fire Blast
-Hidden Power [Grass]
-Morning Sun
-Will-o-Wisp

I remember running it a while back with the lack of instant recovery on PBR and it could take STABed earthquakes if switching in with Intimidate, but with access to Morning Sun it's a solid defensive threat, especially on Sunny Day teams 75% Heal per turn is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Bribery]

I had been thinking about one prior to the announcement:

Dragonite @ Focus Sash / Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Rash (+SpA, -SpD)
EV: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Extremespeed
-Fire Blast
-Hidden Power [Grass]

Idea here is that Draco Meteor + Extremespeed takes out any focus sash users, namely Azelf, Aerodactyl, Infernape, Roserade, and Smeargle. Focus Sash can protect you from an immediate Stone Edge from Aerodactyl, but Lum Berry saves you from Roserade/Smeargle leads. Fire Blast handles Metagross in two shots, while Fire Blast + Extremespeed beats Roserade. Hidden Power Grass takes care of Swampert, and HP Grass followed by Draco Meteor beats Hippowdon.

That's an interesting set and it gives Dragonite a distinct purpose over Salamence being an anti-lead. The only problem I see is against Swampert since most carry an Ice attack, either Ice Punch/Avalanche or Ice Beam.



I also think Choice Band seems like the best set.

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)
EV: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Extremespeed
-Outrage
-Fire Punch
-Earthquake/Superpower

Fire Punch 2hko's Bronzong and Skarmory so no need to run Fire Blast. Aqua Tail/Waterfall could also work somewhere for the 2hko on Gliscor/Hippowdon and OHKO on Heatran. Superpower might be better since it OHKOs Blissey.



I can already see NP Mismagius being an incredible force in OU being in it's own speed tier. Out of the top 10 OU Pokemon, only Infernape, Latias, and Gengar outspeed it, all three of which are mostly special attackers. However, it still has to watch out for Scizor. xD

 

[pkmn1000]

YES!!! I'm gonna start using dragon rush lugia all over my team.

. I'm gonna start using dusknoir since it isnt particularly threatened by any of nites attacks and can easily stall draggy out of ES PP.

sorry for double posting

FUCK YES lv 50 kyogre water spout.

 

[WarriorPrince]

I think Np Maggy and ES Nite 2 of the best changes. Draggy FTW!!

I think I will use an anti lead Dragonite.

 

[RBG]

If you are going to post random 1 sentence posts, just edit your last post. Thanks.

 

[Age of Kings]

I'm most excited about Brave Bird Ho-Oh. With excellent STABs, it's far more difficult to switch in to. Sadly, you're basically required to run a rapid spinner with it because recoil and SR are never fun.

some of the egg move additions have made me speechless in awe.

 

[Alaka]

im sorry but pkmn1000 how can you think thats a good thing?

 

[Neonian]

I'm really curious as to what these 52 move tutors are... aren't there only like 500 or so moves?

Anyway, from what i've seen, mismagius and aggron are going to be real motherfuckers to deal with now.

 

[Dragonknight!]

dratini is now still my hero.

 

[franky]

I agree about Honchkrow. Drill Peck is already a great move. Brave Bird won't change it much.

Actually Brave Bird can 2HKO incoming Milotic in the UU tier - which is his common counter nowadays, so that is defenitely a big change.

On the LC metagame..
Misdreavus is damn cheap now, can defeat Munchlax now. Its probably going to be banned.

DD Barboach is interesting, gonna try that out. AgilityKrabby is going to be annoying for sure.

Speculation right now, Aggron is a potent force in the UU tier now thanks to Head Smash. Adamant + Polish with Life Orb is deadly as Head Smash deals a max o 77.92% on 252 / 252 Milotic. Deals a minimum of 52.23% on 252 / 252 Slowbro. Thoughts?

 

[Clandeck]

It appears Ho-oh learns Brave Bird at level 15, hence it will have it when you try to catch it in Heart Gold.

That, my friends, will likely be the hardest pokemon you will ever catch,
not only because of it's INSANE power, but it can also get recoil and kill itself before you can catch it.

 

[Age of Kings]

Drumjet Azumarill is also gonna be beastly.

It's legal now? Good god.

 

[RegalStar]

It's legal now? Good god.

There's a good chance of it, but it's not 100% confirmed yet. Mainly now Aqua Jet is a tutor move, and Azumarill is likely going to be able to pick it up as that, eliminating the whole incompatible egg move problem.

If Azu somehow misses the tutor call though...

EDIT: If Ice Shard is given out to random pokes, Garchomp and Latios might need retesting.

 

[Age of Kings]

There's an Aqua Jet tutor? I'm pending on the list.

If it does, I would say it'd probably be kicked to BL because every team would be required to run a water immune (yay Quagsire getting recover) or Milotic, though they already kind of do. Aqua Jet / Belly Drum / Superpower / Ice Punch is enough to sweep teams though. Maybe Sub over Ice Punch in there. It's plenty bulky so it won't really get picked off right off the bat if it gets set up.

 

[OmegaPit]

I wonder when the moves will be introduced into shoddy.

 

[Age of Kings]

I wonder when the moves will be introduced into shoddy.

Give it time for it to be programmed and sorted out. iirc for Platinum it took two weeks.

 

[franky]

There's an Aqua Jet tutor? I'm pending on the list.

If it does, I would say it'd probably be kicked to BL because every team would be required to run a water immune (yay Quagsire getting recover) or Milotic, though they already kind of do. Aqua Jet / Belly Drum / Superpower / Ice Punch is enough to sweep teams though. Maybe Sub over Ice Punch in there. It's plenty bulky so it won't really get picked off right off the bat if it gets set up.

True, just pure speculation, Azumarill can run Sub / Aqua Jet / Waterfall / Belly Drum in the UU tier. A bit random but it just needs its precious STABs as even the bulkiest Gras-type (Tangrowth) won't enjoy +6 Belly Drum Waterfall dealing 56.93% max. Ice Punch is always welcome, but 2 STABs is enough.

 

[MetaNite]

There's a good chance of it, but it's not 100% confirmed yet. Mainly now Aqua Jet is a tutor move, and Azumarill is likely going to be able to pick it up as that, eliminating the whole incompatible egg move problem.

If Azu somehow misses the tutor call though...

EDIT: If Ice Shard is given out to random pokes, Garchomp and Latios might need retesting.

Actually, this is incorrect. It will be legal due to a 'glitch' of sorts allowing Azumarill to breed and learn both moves.

I am pretty stoked about this:

1. Aqua Jet Feraligatr will finally separate it from Gyarados and will be a potent threat in UU.

2. Nasty Plot Mismagius will surely be banned in UU, but no doubt it will dominate while it is there. Think of it as an OU Manaphy who doesn't need 101 Subs.

3. Morning Sun Arcanine looks very cool. In UU, Arcanine can counter many many Pokemon and now doesn't need Rest and Sleep Talk. In OU, Arcanine is one of the best Scizor and Lucario counters, although it won't be very reliable due to Sandstorm's presence.

4. Encore Gallade / Poliwrath looks pretty cool, especially on Poliwrath due to it commonly using Substitute to avoid status. This will in theory shut down many Pokemon. Gallade also gains another support option, possibly enough to boot it out of Heracross' place (I don't think so). Bulky Gallade does look like a threat however.

5. Extreme Speed Dragonite looks interesting, assuming it can actually get the move. I agree with SDS mostly on this matter. Extreme Speed does not work well at all with its STAB, and is a waste of space on the Dragon Dancers. I see use however for it on possibly MixNite, and also CBNite for sure.

These are just the things I can remember at the moment. Looks pretty cool. Cannot wait for move tutors (finish the game already >:()

I would also say that the new moves will certainly be in Shoddy Battle 2, not so certain about the current version.