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Pokémon+ Luck-free metagame : Server up and running !

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Innocent Criminal, Jun 29, 2011.

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  1. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Actually the removal of a ch chance (20% crit rate?) evens out the perfect accuracy:

    Yea, this is probably horrible statistics, but here's my reasoning:

    Assuming Stone-Edge crit rate is 20%, on average it would crit once every five hits. And due to it's 80% accuracy, on average it would miss once for every 5 hits.

    So in 5 turns: 100 + 100 + 100 + 0 + 200 = 500

    In this server: 100 x 5 = 500.

    EDIT: LOL, Darkmalice has a good point!
  2. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Wouldn't it be better to implement a mechanics change in which all moves have perfect accuracy, but moves' new base damage is their old damage multiplied by accuracy i.e. Hydro Pump = 120 x 0.80 = 96 base power? In other words, moves hit for the average amount of damage they will cause if used an infinite number of times over infinite matches. This would certainly help in balancing moves like Power Whip and Focus Blast
  3. PokéMontage

    PokéMontage

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    ^Turning Hydro Pump into Surf is not the solution. The point is to allow moves to maintain their advantages over other moves while replacing their luck-based downside (Accuracy) with a downside that doesn't revolve around luck. Nerfing Hydro Pump's power completely removes its advantage over Surf.
  4. Steeler

    Steeler

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    full paralysis should happen every four turns.
  5. Innocent Criminal

    Innocent Criminal

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    @Airfoil : then, dominate the metagame using StoneQuake coverage and it will most likely get nerfed. I didn't say that I'm not willing to change it, only that expect it to be needed. Theorymoning doesn't make much sense at this point, you can't ask me to undo my work and recode this everytime someones assumes something ! Play this and prove your point ;)

    @DarkMalice : mostly what PokéMontage set. I wanted this to still be a choice between raw power and reliability. I also won't change any BP in order to keep analyses and damage calcs still relevant. This doesn't belong here, though.

    @Steeler : Suggestions go in the development thread. I don't think I'll do that, though, as knowing your opponent won't move mean you can take advantage of it and, for exemple, continue boosting instead of attacking. No one does that with standard paralysis because 3 times out if 4, they'll just get KOed.


    So, I had a little more time to play this, here are my thoughts :
    - Terrakion greatly benefits from SE, it will probably go up in usage.
    - Magnezone is amazing, as phazer-pinning while disposing of Ferrothorn removes so many defensive cores. SubCharge also got a lot better. Works very well with Excadrill, but also ChestoRest Kingdra.
    - I saw HJK Lucario, but CC is still probably better for Ghosts, Blissey and Ferrothorn. However, Iron Tail now let him break through slower Gliscors and gives him amazing neutral coverage. Iron Tail might lower speed (like Hammer Arm) as a small nerf.
    - Dragon Rush makes Bulky Dragonite a lot better, and Salamence probably benefits from it too. It will probably get 1/4 recoil.
    - I didn't get to try it or play against it, but Sun probably got better from Sleep Powder.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Well we expect low-chance secondary effects to not happen either way, so a Pokemon using it could more or less not expect anything from these effects. The ones with 30% chance of happening still have their side effects activated on the second hit.

    On the other hand, we expect Sheer Force to receive the power boost and free LO boost from moves, whose secondary effects hardly see any use (see Focus Blast, Flare Blitz, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Earth Power, Fire Punch etc), so removing the power boost seems unwarranted.

    I think the activation-on-the-second-hit should also apply to Iron Head / Rock Slide / Air Slash flinch (30% chance), which would otherwise be a shitty Iron Tail / Stone- Edge / Hurricane. Granted Rock Slide is usually seen on Sweepers, most notably on Excadrill, who usually doesn't really rely on the flinch chance but more for coverage, and giving this added effect may be dangerously exploited by such sweepers. However, I must argue that Iron Head and even Air Slash is often used for its secondary effect than for coverage / power, so I think a 30% chance-effect for Iron Head and Air Slash are justified if not for Rock Slide.

    EDIT: I also realized that I misunderstood your "critical hit" after 20-turn effect. I have mistaken this as a "nerfed" critical hit that temporarily negates the defense boosts accumulated without the doubling of damage. However, what you are proposing is the PERMANENT removal of the defensive boosts, which is interesting and less exploitable. I like it.
  7. WindScar

    WindScar

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    I think it's unfair to ban sleep inducing moves. Make it last 3 turns and make a pokémon be immune to it after it wakes up.
  8. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Sounds extremely boring and uninteresting.
    The thrill of a lucky critical hit, flinch or status effect turning the flow of matches is the main reason I still even bother playing pokemon.
    You people should embrace the luck factor instead of hating it. I bet luck IS the main reason you started playing competitive matches, you just don't want to admit it for whatever reason.
  9. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    Cool story bro, how about you read the OP before shitting on the thread.


    EDIT-- Eh, I was going to post something else here, but I guess I should go to the development thread.
  10. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    so explain the masses of people going FUUUUUUUUUUUU daily over a random critical hit that owns them in random CM wars for example.
  11. Innocent Criminal

    Innocent Criminal

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    Please just ignore people coming here to rant, as asked in the OP.

    @WindScar : SleepPowder and Spore are allowed and sleep always lasts two turns. Anyway, suggestions and complaints go in the development thread.
  12. kanak0

    kanak0

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    This seems like a cool idea and I will be sure to try it out this weekend.
    And remember haters gonna hate, dont let them get you down.
  13. Gerard

    Gerard

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    What happend to CompoundEyes?

    Still, nice job, i love to see machamp gone for good, i've alwas hated that thing
  14. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    Maybe a Compoundeyes pokemon could ignore the harmful secondary effect of (previously) low-acc moves?
  15. Dark Arceus

    Dark Arceus

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    I tried this...

    Playing pickup sticks was more fun.


    Smogon is competitive so I get why people don't like hax but it's part of the game. If it wasn't it would be easier to tell who would win and sooner.

    Hax makes the battle more fun. What makes pokemon pokemon is having fun, playing however you want, and having luck involved to turn any battle around.

    Say your opponent has swept your team with +2 Speed and Attack Dragonite and has 2 more pokemon while you only have 1. If enough luck happens it can be turned around.

    While hax is not competitive it is apart of the game. Also it actually makes the game more fun and interesting.
  16. verbatim

    verbatim Red like Roses
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    Now I agree with you but this is a good thing. People who think luck should stay can stay on the standard server and those who want it gone can play on the new one. Everyone wins.
  17. Airfoil

    Airfoil

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    Try getting at least a decent streak on the Battle Subway, or even the Battle Tower in he old games where hax is even more out of control, and you'll see our point. I've lost so many times because the enemy got a Crit, or because Rock Slide missed three turns in a row, and I've died three times against this one Chomp on the subway w/ Brightpowder and Sandstorm. They Protect three turns in a row, then when Protect fails my attack misses. After 20 minutes I died to Sandstorm.
  18. gookie

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    People coming here to rant should probably pay more attention to eric the espeon's post (hint: maybe quote it in the OP). This sounds like an excellent idea and I'd probably play it if the playerbase became large enough and the tweaks were sorted and carried out.
  19. VintageRonJohn

    VintageRonJohn

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    Thanks

    I've read this whole thread, and it sounds like a great idea as written. Lots of the suggestions sound like a "slippery slope" deal leading right back to luck.

    As you've said, it's silly for me to ask you to recode stuff without testing it out myself, so I won't, and I'm looking forward to testing this, but I'd like to point out these things anyway:

    Even if this is oodles of fun for a few months, shouldn't it boil down to rock-paper-scissors between a small handful of extremely common lineups?

    I expect that Baton Pass will need a nerf, as pointed out way earlier in this thread. What's to stop someone from using, say, a suicide lead, Magnezone in the second slot, and Baton Passing with the other four Pokemon? When Skarmory phazes it will already be toast.

    Lots of Pokemon will have sad, useless abilities :'( haha

    Keep up the great work! You're doing everyone a service.
  20. sc4rs

    sc4rs

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    For the first point, I don't think that deterministic necessarily means a-few-beat-all. For example, chess hasn't had a "master strategy" come up for it, and Pokemon certainly has a comparable number of options as an entire game of chess, what with nearly 600 "pieces" to choose from.

    Baton Pass hasn't been an issue for me yet (though I've played a grand total of 3 matches because nobody is ever on, haha), and it seems to me all that needs to happen is for people to use a Phazer that deals with Magnezone. My Phaser happens to be a Subtran, and it had no problem toasting Magnezone the one time it Roar'd one in.
  21. Saiva

    Saiva

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    First of all this it's just a suggestion:
    the problem that everyone has with hax is not hax itself (redundant you may say), let me explain this statement better:
    Missing stone edge isn't that annoying, i mean 1 in 5 chance of a miss its always there, the problem is when it misses 2,3 or even 4 times in a row (i believe that the odds are like 1/20 for 3 misses in a row)
    So, why instead of giving those moves 100% accuracy. Why not implementing a limit. something like you can have 1 miss every 5 turns, and on the 4 turns after the miss stone edge can't miss, after the 5° turn it can miss again
    This way the possibilitty of missing stone edge/fire blast 3 times in a row would be non existant, balancing hax issues and not altering the metagame that much

    Please excuse me beforehand if it's a bad idea (and for grammar mistakes)
  22. VintageRonJohn

    VintageRonJohn

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    After a battle I had where Focus Miss lived up to its nickname, I said pretty much this exact thing to my friend. Here's the problem: once you've missed, especially if it's on the first turn, there is no longer any drawback to using the powerful moves. You could then spam low accuracy moves and rest assured that they would hit enough to bring you to victory. I sympathize with this idea, but one wasted turn is not a high enough price for being able to relentlessly and reliably use a high-powered attack for the next four.

    Furthermore, would the counter reset if a different move were used, or if the Pokemon switched? Details like that could probably cause confusion and/or abuse.

    Personally though, I am in favor of somehow banning three misses in a row on moves with 70% percent accuracy or better. (The odds on Stone Edge missing 3x consecutively is actually 1/125). Last night when I was battling the very same friend Thundurus' Focus Blast missed about five times in a row, although we had this conversation months ago.
  23. No. 1 Machop Fan

    No. 1 Machop Fan

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    Interesting... I may have a chance on this server!

    I'm guessing No Guard, Compoundeyes and Victory Star would be useless on this server?
  24. Green Mage

    Green Mage

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    I have been waiting for a server like this forever and i am currently jizzing my pants just thinking about it...but I have a feeling you went a bit overboard. All improvements or changes to the game should be implemented through bannings and unbannings; changing the core mechanics is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

    That's why I can't agree with the accuracy thing. There are two kinds of hax: 'risk management' hax, and unmanageable hax. Move accuracy is totally manageable; since you can decide when and where to use stone edge (for example), you can use it at a time when missing with it won't cost you that much. Unmanageable hax, like critical hits (for example), is the type of hax that you have absolutely no control over; it gives you or your opponent the potential to outright win the game at any time based entirely on a random number. There is no skill, strategy, competitive value or 'thrill' involved when a meteor strikes the battlefield. (really? you get a thrill out of winning or losing because of a critical hit? whatever.)

    OHKO moves are a bit different in that you can decide for yourself when missing wouldn't be too costly, but the opponent doesn't have the same decision-making ability. OHKOing is so powerful and there are so few useable sturdy pokes around that both players basically end up hoping for the best result as the OHKO user spams it turn after turn, and that is never something you want to be happening in a supposedly-skill intensive game.

    I could write a book about this subject and most of my points have probably been brought up already, so i'll shut up now and hope that this server evolves into something really fun.
  25. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    >decide when and where to use Stone Edge

    So if you are using a Pokemon with EQ+Stone Edge, you are faced with a Salamence, you are forced to use the slightly inaccurate option...
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