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Pokémon RMT bot

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by casmith789, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. casmith789

    casmith789

    Joined:
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    My friend CallForJudgement and I have made a RMT bot. If you want to try it out, PM me on IRC so I can get it up and running.

    To get this to work properly, I need a comprehensive list of Pokémon and their counters. The first initial one I've done by hand, but I know as well as anyone that by no means is it comprehensive, and by no means is all the data accurate.

    The current data is shown below: please can you suggest counters/checks for Pokémon that aren't there and also removing ones that are (counters I have used have been got from smogon, so most should be okay).

    First pokémon is the pokémon being countered, then beneath is the list of counters.

    Thanks for posting :)

    edit: UUs removed

    Aerodactyl

    Swampert,Hippowdon,Gliscor,Rhyperior,Machamp,Bronzong,Suicune,Vaporeon,Cresselia,Scizor,Jirachi
    Alakazam
    Blissey,Snorlax,Bronzong,Scizor,Jirachi,Metagross,Latias,Weavile,Tyranitar
    Azelf
    Heatran,Tyranitar,Blissey,Cresselia,Togekiss,Snorlax,Weavile,Scizor,Latias
    Blissey
    Machamp,Heracross,Electivire,Snorlax,Metagross,Tyranitar,Rhyperior,Salamence,Togekiss,Lucario,Infernape,Dusknoir,Spiritomb,Skarmory,Rotom-A,Jirachi
    Breloom
    Celebi,Cresselia,Heracross,Gliscor,Salamence,Gyarados,Zapdos,Skarmory
    Bronzong
    Magnezone,Rotom-A,Gyarados,Vaporeon,Swampert,Suicune,Infernape,Heatran,Blissey,Celebi,Skarmory
    Celebi
    Tyranitar,Weavile,Skarmory,Forretress,Scizor,Flygon,Salamence,Latias,Dusknoir,Heatran,Azelf,Suicune
    Cresselia
    Tyranitar,Heracross,Weavile,Scizor,Blissey,Snorlax,Jirachi,Swampert,Magnezone,Gyarados,Infernape
    Dragonite
    Suicune,Swampert,Weavile,Mamoswine,Cresselia,Hippowdon,Skarmory,Bronzong,Scizor
    Dusknoir
    Tyranitar,Weavile,Heracross,Heatran,Rotom-A
    Electivire
    Swampert,Cresselia,Rotom-A,Dusknoir,Hippowdon,Rhyperior,Bronzong,Forretress,Celebi,Gliscor,Dugtrio,Salamence
    Empoleon
    Blissey,Vaporeon,Latias,Lucario,Celebi,Snorlax,Cresselia,Skarmory,Bronzong,Salamence,Gyarados,Rotom-A,Zapdos
    Flygon
    Cresselia,Suicune,Vaporeon,Hippowdon,Gliscor,Gyarados,Bronzong,Skarmory,Forretress,Heatran,Metagross
    Forretress
    Rotom-A,Gengar,Gyarados,Skarmory,Zapdos,Heatran,Infernape,Salamence
    Gengar
    Weavile,Tyranitar,Metagross,Heracross,Scizor,Blissey,Snorlax,Jirachi,Bronzong,Heatran
    Gliscor
    Gyarados,Starmie,Swampert,Vaporeon,Suicune,Skarmory,Bronzong
    Gyarados
    Starmie,Cresselia,Celebi,Metagross,Suicune,Vaporeon,Skarmory,Rotom-A,Jolteon
    Heatran
    Milotic,Suicune,Tentacruel,Vaporeon,Swampert,Latias,Kingdra,Blissey,Heatran,Snorlax,Tyranitar
    Heracross
    Gliscor,Salamence,Gyarados,Zapdos,Dusknoir,Rotom-A,Jirachi,Metagross,Skarmory,Scizor
    Hippowdon
    Bronzong,Skarmory,Gyarados,Celebi,Swampert,Suicune,Vaporeon
    Infernape
    Suicune,Gyarados,Vaporeon,Tentacruel,Starmie,Salamence,Dragonite,Swampert,Latias,Azelf,Cresselia,Togekiss
    Jirachi
    Celebi,Tyranitar,Magnezone,Skarmory,Zapdos,Blissey,Snorlax,Swampert,Suicune,Vaporeon,Heatran,Gyarados,Metagross
    Jolteon
    Electivire,Tyranitar,Celebi,Jolteon,Cresselia,Snorlax,Blissey
    Kingdra
    Empoleon,Celebi,Suicune,Vaporeon,Snorlax
    Latias
    Tyranitar,Scizor,Metagross,Bronzong,Blissey,Mamoswine
    Lucario
    Gliscor,Gyarados,Celebi,Salamence,Skarmory,Hippowdon,Bronzong,Jirachi,Blissey,Gyarados,Zapdos,Cresselia,Dusknoir,Rotom-A,Heatran
    Machamp
    Dusknoir,Rotom-A,Celebi,Cresselia,Gliscor,Gyarados
    Magnezone
    Magnezone,Jolteon,Electivire,Rotom-A,Latias,Gardevoir,Gliscor,Swampert,Rhyperior,Zapdos,Heatran,Blissey,Snorlax
    Mamoswine
    Bronzong,Scizor,Skarmory,Weezing,Gyarados,Gengar,Cresselia
    Metagross
    Rotom-A,Zapdos,Skarmory,Bronzong,Forretress,Gliscor,Hippowdon,Swampert,Vaporeon,Suicune,Magnezone
    Ninjask
    Skarmory,Suicune,Hippowdon,Vaporeon,Scizor
    Porygon-Z
    Spiritomb,Blissey,Tyranitar,Metagross,Lucario,Scizor,Gengar,Heatran
    Rhyperior
    Bronzong,Skarmory,Swampert,Suicune,Hippowdon,Breloom,Celebi
    Rotom-A
    Heatran,Blissey,Tyranitar,Jirachi,Snorlax,Magnezone,Swampert,Weavile,Jolteon,Heracross,Zapdos,Gengar,Electivire
    Salamence
    Bronzong,Gliscor,Rhyperior,Cresselia,Skarmory,Starmie,Hippowdon,Gyarados,Suicune,Mamoswine,Blissey,Empoleon,Heatran,Scizor
    Scizor
    Rotom-A,Zapdos,Gyarados,Heatran,Magnezone,Hippowdon,Scizor,Skarmory,Infernape
    Skarmory
    Magnezone,Heatran,Lucario,Gyarados,Rhyperior,Tyranitar
    Smeargle
    Dusknoir,Gengar,Lucario,Scizor,Suicune,Skarmory,Vaporeon,Gyarados
    Snorlax
    Heracross,Machamp,Gengar,Rotom-A,Metagross,Rhyperior,Jirachi,Suicune,Lucario,Celebi,Skarmory,Gliscor,Azelf
    Starmie
    Blissey,Snorlax,Heracross,Tyranitar,Weavile,Metagross,Scizor,Latias,Spiritomb,Rotom-A,Dusknoir,Jirachi
    Suicune
    Vaporeon,Blissey,Gyarados,Salamence,Dragonite,Flygon,Kingdra,Celebi,Tyranitar,Latias,Jolteon,Zapdos
    Swampert
    Ludicolo,Celebi,Dusknoir,Gengar,Zapdos,Heracross,Vaporeon,Suicune,Latias
    Tentacruel
    Swampert,Empoleon,Metagross,Jirachi,Rotom-A,Latias,Suicune
    Togekiss
    Blissey,Cresselia,Zapdos,Rotom-A,Bronzong,Electivire,Jolteon,Scizor,Metagross,Salamence,Gyarados
    Tyranitar
    Scizor,Forretress,Bronzong,Skarmory,Hippowdon,Rhyperior,Swampert,Gliscor,Breloom,Lucario,Machamp
    Umbreon
    Heracross,Lucario,Machamp,Metagross,Scizor,Forretress,Skarmory,Gyarados,Tyranitar
    Vaporeon
    Tentacruel,Empoleon,Vaporeon,Celebi,Blissey,Cresselia,Kingdra,Salamence,Dragonite,Gyarados,Suicune,Jolteon,Rotom-A,Magnezone
    Weavile
    Forretress,Bronzong,Metagross,Scizor,Gyarados,Swampert,Heracross,
    Zapdos
    Blissey,Snorlax,Electivire,Jolteon,Ampharos,Flygon,Gliscor,Swampert,Rhyperior,Latias,Celebi,Tyranitar
  2. mattj

    mattj blatant Nintendo fanboy

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    Hmmm... a surprisingly deep and spirited attempt!

    I could see it's usefulness by pointing out the obvious and well known counters, but sadly I don't believe it could ever be exhaustive or authoritative. For example I just 1HKO'd a Garchomp with a Crobat last night. I didn't see that on your list! XD (not that I believe it ever should be).

    Still, could prove useful.

    Oh, and BTW, is this Singles or Doubles oriented? That could make a huge difference.
  3. petrie911

    petrie911

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    Could you elaborate on how this RMTbot would actually work?

    I presume, from the fact that you want a list of counters/checks, that it goes through your team, looks for Pokemon you have few counters/checks to, then points this out. Does it do more than this?

    Also, I would suggest making a distinction between counter and check. Tyranitar is a counter to Heatran, while Mamoswine is a check on Salamence.

    Oh, and you may want to differentiate sets that may have very different counters. Gliscor counters SD Lucario, but it struggles against SpecsLuke.
  4. Shelcario

    Shelcario

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    This sounds like a cool concept to develop but, then it would defeat the whole purpose of the RMT forums:D
  5. mattj

    mattj blatant Nintendo fanboy

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    Nah, it might just save a lot of idiotic posts there.
  6. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    This obviously wouldn't defeat the purpose of the the RMT forum. It would just be something fun and helpful for obvious stuff and for newer players.

    Eh, I don't really get why you would use it; but I see no harm in it I suppose. Be interesting to see how it goes I suppose, good luck. Could potentially be helpful to newer players.

    BTW moving to C&C since this is more of a project, rather than a discussion.

    edit: An yes, I'm agreeing with petrie911, some details on how this works would be helpful and would probably encourage more people to help you.
  7. mtr

    mtr

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    This looks like it has potential. Since my Computer Use skill is not worth mentioning, all I can help with is the actual pokemon aspect.

    An SD Tentacruel can counter any Suicune barring the offensive HP Electric user.

    Jirachi can overcome a non-Stoss Blissey by getting SDef drops with Flash Cannon and SAtk raises with Calm Mind.

    Gyarados doesn't counter Dusknoir, as many run Thunderpunch.

    More later.
  8. casmith789

    casmith789

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    This in no way replaces RMT, I know humans are much more developed than my bot! How does it work? Well, it checks for counters to your team, and then checks how many of your team counter that pokémon, and from that says which could counter the team. Eventually of course the most common UUs could be put on the list of OU as well, so it would show everything except that odd Medicham!

    At the moment, yes, there is no difference between MixMence and SpecsMence, and different forms - I think this is possible to change eventually but will be a lot of work (eg Blissey counters SpecsMence, but not MixMence). That's quite hard to type in when using it via RMT though.

    This is singles orientated, and only OU, but hopefully I may be able to find time to expand to other areas. (only because my main experience is singles OU)

    At the moment I'm going for checks (which obviously includes counters) because you want it to give data against them, but yes, a distinction would clearly be better.
  9. Xia

    Xia aka Lone Gansel
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    It may be useful to add an application like Marilland's Team Builder that allows you to see how your team's weaknesses and resistances stack up against themselves.
  10. animenagai

    animenagai
    is a Past WCoP Winner

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    I like the effort. It's kinda useful having a quick list you can go to. The problem with this list is that it's too simplistic. For example, celebi is a great gyara counter unless it has bounce. If you team only has celebi as a check for gyara then you can be in trouble. Furthermore, rotom for example isn't a perfect counter for starmie. It doesn't like taking on multiple surfs, even if it;s not boosted, but it can be a good revenge killer. Kinda hard making a good list really.
  11. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    This is a cool idea, but how exactly would it work? I'm terrible at techinical stuff, so I'm just wondering, out of curiousity.
  12. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    This is a great idea. But I believe each individual set, instead of each individual Pokemon, should be mentioned as checks and counters. For example, DDMence is checked by Swampert, and Suicune, SpecsMence is checked by Blissey, MixMence is checked by Cresselia.
    In some cases, individual sets should be mentioned as checks instead of the actual Pokemon. For example, Scarf Heatran and Magnezone check SD Lucario, but no other Heatran/Magnezone set does.

    Also, there's a few problems with the list. Gyarados is mentioned as a check to Skarmory, and Skarmory is mentioned as a check to Gyarados. Gyarados can't check Skarmory, and Skarmory can check Taunt-less Gyara. Some horrible Pokemon that no one would every use are mentioned as checks, like Probopass as a check to Skarm, Shedninja as a check to Scizor, Banette as a check to Smeargle (twice). Rotom-A may sometimes need to be mentioned as their individual forms. Only Rotom-H checks Lucario, and like for example, Rotom-W can be mentioned as a check for Rhyperior and Rotom-C can be mentioned as a check for Swampert.
  13. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    This kind of bot would absolutely not work. Not only do counters become out of date and impractical... there's really a lot wrong with this idea.

    Building a team around "stopping your opponent from winning" will never result in winning. You simply cannot counter everything while trying to simultaneously win yourself unless you're building a well-thought-out stall team. A bot ignores how well a player can "play around" a threat, what strange moves a Pokémon might have, odd ways of dealing with threats, sacrfices and revenge kills, a more offensively oriented team... there's just too many reasons to list that a robot cannot rate a team.
  14. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Right church, wrong pew.

    A bot CAN help people "rate" teams. How many times have you made a team, then gotten like 5 battles in and thought "fuck how could I have forgotten that pokemon?" That happens to me all the time, and something like this would be useful to save time in that very common situation. Not only can this bot point out problem pokemon that you may have missed while thinking your team up, this bot can also help you find things to replace in this team. "I have 5 pokemon that can easily handle Bronzong? OK, now if I have to make changes in the team I have an idea of where to look..."

    But overall this is only good as a reference, much like that type-chart thing that others are talking about. Papermon will only get you so far, you cant just look at type-matchups and determine how good your team is...just like you can't just look at the pokemon's paper counters and know if it is good.

    This idea isn't bad...it will be much more useful than people give it credit for (after it is fleshed out a bit more, of course). I'd like to see a tier option as well for Ubers and UU/NU teams. And maybe even other gens!! :)
  15. mtr

    mtr

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    And also, it could help out with teams that need to know what counters they need removed for a pokemon to sweep and if they have them all covered. Quite a few experienced offense players no doubt compute this all in their head, but they still might miss something from time to time.

    I would like to see individual sets as well, but I understand that it is a pain. So there can be a compromise: pokemon such as Lucario can strike hard from either end. But we can divide them into Physical Lucario and Special Lucario. Physical Lucario is easily defeated by Hippowdon, Special Lucario by Blissey.

    Pokemon such as Scizor are one-trick ponies. Therefore, such a divide is unnecessary for them.
  16. KnightoftheWind

    KnightoftheWind
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    This seems like a good idea. It'll definitely help with team building, to see potential threats.
  17. Thorns

    Thorns

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    Good idea. I see no harm in doing this - just make sure no one fully relies on it.
  18. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I get what you're at, but it's either just the Pokemon or the individual sets (which I agree should be the case), not Physical and Special, which gives no option for Pokemon like Mixmence (aka both Physical and Special). Lucario can also be a mix. Similarly, Physical and Special makes it hard to fit defensive sets like Umbreon into a category.

    And I wouldn't say Scizor doesn't need a split. Some of the counters for the CB and SD set are not counters for Baton Pass sets e.g. Hippowdon.
  19. Sharpteeth

    Sharpteeth

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    Since Aerodactyl is mostly used as a lead, I recommend putting up Jirachi as a counter.

    With the accuracy drop of Hypnosis, Gengar isn't an awesome counter to Blissey anymore.

    Magnezone just isn't a counter for Heatran...seriously.

    Hippowdon has no way of stopping Infernape because of Grass Knot.

    Blissey (and Regice) just aren't surefire counters to Kingdra because of Outrage and Waterfall.

    Again, Magnezone isn't a counter to Lucario.

    I think this will never take the place of a real Team Rater, but it can be a great idea as a makeshift Threat Checklist. It's a worthy endeavor, I hope to see it soon.
  20. casmith789

    casmith789

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    I see your point, and agree a bot itself with this attitude cannot possibly hope to design a team. This however checks for potential threats, something a human may overlook. For example, after running it through the bot, potential threats may come up as 'Tyranitar and Heatran'. Well, I'm running HP Ground so that can discount Heatran, but Tyranitar... hmm. Humans can then adapt their teams to threats they may not have thought of without doing an entire threat list.

    By the way, it is up and running on IRC, on synirc /msg teamforce !rmt lucario heatran hippowdon jirachi electivire kingdra (or any other 6 OU pokes) if I am online :)
  21. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I've realised you've removed all UUs. I feel some do deserve mention at times if they have use in OU, or if a Pokemon set has very limited checks and counters. For example, Porygon2 is the best Gyarados and DDMence counter.
  22. Game

    Game

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    This sums it up basically. I see this has potential, and like jrrrrrrr said, you sometimes can create a team and be battling and all of a sudden think "Crap, I completely forgot about (insert Pokemon here)!". I'll look through the counter/check list later, and see if I can help. I'm not tht great, but Im not horrible either (at battling).
  23. Shelcario

    Shelcario

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    Maybe he could split the RMT bot into each of the different tiers, UU bot, OU bot, BL bot, and maybe an NU bot when all of the playtesting gets done with that I'm guessing.
  24. Naxte

    Naxte

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    Eh, that's really a bit needless though. If the UUs and such are going to be put back into it, then it would be much better to simply go with one bot, with a command format like this:
    !Counters Honchkrow OU--Lists Honchkrow's OU counters.
    !Counters Honchkrow UU--Lists its UU counters.
    !Counters Honchkrow All--Lists its counters in all tiers (this could simply be a plain old list of all counters or be organized and broken up by tier).

    Exact same info, with the need for only one bot.
  25. casmith789

    casmith789

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    I removed all UUs because of the definition less than 5% of teams have them, so they're not much to worry about. Naxte, the idea of the bot was not actually to check for counters for an individual poke but for the entire team, the bot would try to see whether weaknesses to one pokemon were covered elsewhere.

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