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Pokémon X and Y Discussion

Discussion in 'Trou Du Cul' started by Birkal, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. Infernis

    Infernis

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    Water/Flying: See Gyarados, Mantine, Pelipper, and Swanna. Hardly unique. Lanturn and Rotom are the only Water/Electric types though, and if Froakie turns out to be an offensively focused Pokemon, then's some mean STABs.
  2. Codraroll

    Codraroll
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    I think Fire/Ground can be ruled out for a starter, as this would give it an unusually severe disadvantage against a Water starter, and by extension, the inevitable "Water Pokémon everywhere"-routes. It would also nullify its Grass resistance, causing some confusion (admittedly, not as bad seeing as Empoleon already did this, but still...).

    The starter Pokémon is almost always a fairly balanced one, with some advantages at several points in the game, but rarely a severe disadvantage, at least not early on. Game design-wise, it's meant to be a reliable 'mon and the team's powerhouse for a while, designed to stick with you from the start of the game to the end. They wouldn't give it a 4x weakness against an extremely common in-game type. True enough, Charizard was 4x weak against Rock, but in that game there were only two Rock type moves, neither of them very common, and Charizard didn't gain this weakness until post-all-the-caves-game, where you had a team to make up for its shortcomings. And since the very first game, if my memory serves me correctly, we haven't had any starters with a double weakness.

    Similarly, unfortunately, Grass/Dark would give Chespin a disadvantage against the common Bug type. This could be mitigated somewhat by not giving it a Dark type until its final stage, at which point you won't find many strong Bug types (Bug is an early game type, as opposed to stuff like Dragon and Ice). Still, the presence of the dreaded double weakness is a strong argument against Chespin's possible Grass/Dark type. Grass/Poison, Grass/Ground or even Grass/Rock could work. Grass/Steel is out of the question.

    We could have a secondary type that nullifies the primary weakness or resistance (See Empoleon) or hit the rival starter super-effectively (Torterra, Infernape), but I think GameFreak want to keep double weaknesses to a minimum, to keep your precious starter a solid choice throughout your entire adventure, and prevent it from being a total liability at some points in the game.
  3. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    Torterra was 4x weak to Ice and Swampert was 4x weak to Grass. Granted, that was Swampert's only weakness, but Torterra still got shafted pretty hard. The Sinnoh starters are weird because in their fully evolved forms they were all super effective against each other (Empoleon needed Ice Beam, of course, but most people are going to have that on him anyway). Gen II and V were the only ones without a starter that had a double weakness; it actually looks more likely that there will be one in gen VI. It's nice to be hopeful that every one of our new starters will be great, but there's still a chance we'll end up with another Meganium or something. (I fucking love Meganium, it's one of my favorites, but come on guys it's one of the shittiest fully evolved Pokemon there are.)

    Yeah, I know this has been said a million times, but I seriously hope Fennekin doesn't turn into another Fire / Fighting. I'm really worried about this. We need some innovative starter types, like Grass / Flying or Fire / Psychic. That would be so cool.

    Chespin being Grass / Dark would actually be pretty nice. Like a Shiftry that didn't suck.
  4. Xenol

    Xenol

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    Well... since Fennekin is based on the Fennec Fox, which is a desert fox. Fire/Ground doesn't seem all that unlikely to me.

    Besides, since Chespin is a hedgehog that has a lot of spikes, maybe he can evolve to have metallic ones? Hence an offensive version of Grass/Steel.

    As for Froakie, I am thinking it'll be interesting if it becomes Water/Rock since Fire/Ground, Grass/Steel and Water/Rock makes a really interesting trio dynamic going on there as each starter is 4x weak to the primary type of the stronger starter against it. Besides that, this interestingly make all the starters immune to sandstorm.
  5. LonelyWolf

    LonelyWolf

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    Hello there, I'm totally new "old man" who just registered here, although I've been reading Smogon Forums for years... I've enjoyed all the speculations, CAP talks and so on from the past. I Hope my 1st post is appropriate quality for this community.

    But yeah, it took about 3 weeks to read all those 150+ pages this thread has, and little extra difficulties when I had to translate this all to my son also... Lot of great ideas and discussions. To point out, I find Yveltals way of handle ideas most impressive (,be welcome). Of course there are many other great "thinkers", but you've gotten the edge to jump out from the mass.

    Now I'd like to pop out thought of (pre)evos which haven't been discussed yet, and I find it worth to debate. I see people are very excited about the possible totally new mechanics to evolve old pokemon. But I would like to say, that in my opinion it's more likely to presume that GF uses already "used" methods (prove me if I'm wrong). For example, trading with Metal Coat or getting evolution while leveling up with AncientPower attack and so on. And in a way, I find it that way more reliable to discuss which pokemon are possible to get (pre)evo. (Yea, I know, technically "all" of the pokemon can evolve excluding legendary and those which have already 3 stages... or hmmm, can they add 4th stage evos? I see it unlikely, but... Well... Not my point now).

    When thinking this way, I find it easier to figure out possible solutions and so on. I introduce couple of examples; you are wise enough to figure out more then.

    Pinsir/Marowak/Farfetch'd... (so on)
    I'd see it likely to get evo in a way I gave example earlier on. I find it hard to see those mons evolve "naturally" while just leveling up. I can in a contrary figure them quite clearly to evolve with help of Metal Coat to something which is... Well... Coated in metal! Then also I can imagine them having some ancient-form evo with help of AncientPower, although Marowak is only one of those I mentioned which have possibility to learn it...

    Also, knowing GF they love to introduce "side-evolutions" for already existing Pokemon (dissapointing community usually, for not giving evo for mons which should've deserved it). Talking one's like Bellossom/Frosslas and so on. Is there pokemon you think could fit in this category that GF could consider using for new side-evolutions?

    And I'm just saying an idea about the Relicanth evo discussion which took place earlier on... I found it years ago very plausible that it'd evolve. Not naturally of course because of its whole idea. As a young man, I thought that "Maybe in next generation they'd have some scientists which have been studying this extraordinary creature, and found out that in some special way (Read: aforementioned Metal Coat, AncientPower and so on...) it'd evolve!" I thought Relicanth evolving into some Water/Steel would be awesome. Empeleon sort of satisfied my thoughts in IV Gen at that time, but oh well...

    I hope you get my idea. I'm trying to say, that when we think that how'd GF let some Pokemon evolve after many generations, I see it very unlikely it'd do it "naturally". Why would them suddenly evolve without any assistance in a way? Evolution in real life isn't so terribly fast you know... In certain aspects, yes. But oh well. Nowadays it is we humans which speed it up artificially, directly or in-directly.

    This way we can figure out easier which are more likely to evolve, although those might not be those Pokemon which community anticipate to evolve... Does some certain suggested Pokemon have in their real life counterparts some ancient, well-known, "stronger" versions? Or are there some pokemon which seem very appropriate and kind of "cool" (In childrens eyes at least) with new armour-like thing?

    And yeah, I know all the other stone/happiness/place based methods... I just don't mention examples about them, to keep this simple. Do you find some older pokemon "very likely" to evolve to darker form with Dusk Stone or more divine form with Shiny Stone? I've discussed a lot about this matter also with my son. I'd love to see some fan art about this matter, I'm not good enough to produce anything as awesome what I've seen...

    And yeah, sorry if my text is illogical or something. Although I have a quite high degree education (I'm Physician here in Finland... Yea, even physicians can play pokemon, if u didn't know..) I'm more capable of understanding written/spoken English than producing it myself. Part of the reason I ended up register here and write this was that I could share mine and my sons ideas and get our imaginations about new (pre)evos even more vivid!

    Hope speculation will keep the pace up, even there's so much time until the release.
  6. Yveltal

    Yveltal

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    When I think about the Metal Coat, I fall back on a theory that Game Freak would make an attempt to create new evolution methods for old Pokemon that couldn't be performed in the previous generation, usually involving a brand new item. The ancient power route you had to take for Tangela, Piloswine and Yanma is certainly a bit strange, but non of them were capable of learning AncientPower prior to Gen IV, making it a good fit. Future Steel-based evolutions may require the introduction of a variation of the Metal Coat. Let's pretend they make a Metal Hat that evolves Marrowak into Oresaur, a slightly taller, shinier Marowak who now sports a shortblade and an appropriate helmet.
    I'm hoping that they will build further on trade-based evolution catalyzers this new generation that can work for more than one particular Pokemon(magmarizer, electrizer, dubious disc, reapers cloth, deepseatooth...there's so many, it's easy to get lost in them!) I think a new type-changing trade item would be perfect, like an Exoskin that evolves one Pokemon into a part bug-type evolution, or a HeatPack that evolves a couple of pokemon into a part fire-type. If I could demand anything from Game Freak, it's more reasons to trade and talk to people :D

    on a personal note, LonelyWolf, you're sweet to me XD
  7. Ryanide

    Ryanide

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    But if chespin is indeed a hedgehog, it'll probably end up being slow-ish with heavy defensive stats. So if it's a grass/dark it'll probably be like a slow, bulkier shiftry with a really bad defensive typing. Bulky pokemon with bad typings rarely do well.

    At least shiftry has enough speed and special attack to do a decent sweeping job in lower tiers so it doesn't have to worry about being hit much by super effective attacks.
  8. czechm8

    czechm8

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    It seems like a few mons could definitely use evos/prevos, but I don't feel like Absol or heracross need an evo. Prevos maybe, but look at there stats Absol has the strongest priority in the game, do to its 130 base attack; yes it's speed isn't great but it's raw power is that of a fully evolved mon. Heracross is in the same boat 125 attack is GOOD ENOUGH; yes I know he's not OU anymore, but he's still a monster as any UU player can attest.

    I'm a big fan of the relicanth stronger prevo idea from a few pages back; it's an awesome idea. I read somewhere a while ago that the ancient proposed fish I can't spell is estimated to have the strongest bite of any animal ever, so possibly a candidate for a pretty solid attack stat.

    In conclusion prevos for skarm and maybe Absol, and evos for dunsparce, farfteched, masquarian ect.
  9. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Honestly, the first time I saw Electivire, I thougth it was Electric/Fighting. On my opinion if it was this typing, I thougth that it wouldn't be as bad as it is now. Electric/Fighting is a potent combination that makes for an excellent sweeper.

    Speaking of which, I was thinking of a physical Quiver Dance (one that augments Attack, Defense, and Speed), or if you prefer, a Bulk Up that also augments Speed. This would be a boon to Fighting-types if they had access to that move, as well as other physical attackers. At the moment the only things that have access to a move that boosts Speed and Attack at same time (without counting Shell Smash), I am speaking of Dragon Dance, are Dragon-types or Dragon-like Pokémon, outside of these, only Kinklang on lower tiers. Quiver Dance itself could also see more distribution.
  10. Wazzup360

    Wazzup360

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    Sawk for OU!
  11. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    Hey, I'm going to do some ridiculous speculation now.


    You know how everybody and their mothers is betting on the starter trio being Dark-Psychic-Fighting, or at least expecting that Fennekin will be Fire/Psychic, or at the very least that Fennekin won't be part-Fighting? Maybe some of those people haven't been here for older gens' speculation, but they're making a crucial mistake.

    They're being too obvious. And Game Freak isn't. They love curveballs. The wildest guess people would make at Piplup's final form was of a Water/Flying penguin, but most expected a Water/Ice. Needless to say, Water/Steel was quite a surprise. No one expected silly Turtwig becoming the badass Torterra (it sucks, but at least it's cool). We only bet on Oshawott becoming a Water/Fighting samurai otter after we saw that rough sketch which showed Iris, Ash, Axew, Dewott and Servine (...speaking of which, we never had the latter two in the anime's main cast roster, did we...?), and Game Freak's designers blatantly admitted they wanted Oshawott NOT to look like it would evolve into a samurai, AND that its samurai form weren't so straightforward in design. Obviously no one expected Tepig would become bipedal, much less that it would be yet another Fire/Fighting, or that Snivy would lose its legs and only its legs, or that the cute Mudkip would become that fugly Swampert, or that lol Blaziken.

    And now, what are we doing? "I'm sure Fennekin will be a Fire/Psychic because it uses a purple wave move in the trailer huehuehue br br". Lolno. We're falling for their shit once more. While it's fine to expect Chespin will become a hedgehog because of its names (considering he's not even a hedgehog yet lol), there's no way we can be sure of their final designs or typing because we don't know what Sugimori had in mind when designing them, and we probably won't until a couple weeks before release, when they might give some interviews on the matter.


    With this in mind, I'm going to bet two Skittles that Fennekin will be Fire/DRAGON. Just like that fanart someone posted a couple pages back. Bitches be crazy. "But Dragon is the overpowered type!!!" Altaria and Vibrava were available at level 35 in RSE by the 5-6th badge, and I'm sure no one bothered. If only Fennekin's final form is part-Dragon, then players will only get it at level 36. You could get a Gible in Platinum by the fourth badge too IIRC, so it's not that far-off to expect Dragon as a starter's final form. The experience rates are also alike (Altaria was Erratic, Garchomp is Slow, starters and Flygon are Medium-Slow), so there wouldn't be any difference in the training.

    While Altaria and Vibrava don't have the same BST of a starter (Altaria is 490, Vibrava is 340, starters are 525-535), even if DracoFennekin had huh good stats (unlike those two), I don't see how would it be unfair, considering we've had Technician Scyther in Platinum, Infernape/Staraptor spamming Close Combat in DPPt, Magnemite resisting everything in BW2 and lol Sawk in BW. The only real problem there could be is "type design", but I don't buy it too much because I know that, as a kid, I knew Kingdra was a dragon, a cool dragon!, but not as dragon as Dragonite, which was the real deal. I'm sure no one would think of DracoFennekin as anything more than "a cool dragon!". Unless, of course, you think Dragons should be "rare". But then I ask why do Swablu and Trapinch even exist.

    Considering Fennekin will be Fire/Dragon, I would also bet on Chespin being Grass/Steel and Froakie Water/Ground; this way, Froakie can hit both SE; Fennekin hits Chespin SE but has some problems with Froakie; and Chespin walls the "overpowered" part of Fennekin while murdering Froakie. This is... balanced, in my opinion. Sort of. It doesn't need to be perfect, never did, never will. Or maybe Grass/Steel and Water/Fighting; it also has a good, "different" dynamic (Froakie can't hit Fennekin SE but can hit Chespin; Fennekin murders Chespin but can't touch Froakie; Chespin still walls the "overpowered" part of Fennekin while still beating Froakie, but can be murdered by both. Reminds me of Empoleon), and all three have excellent complementary types. We know Reshiram, Keldeo and Ferrothorn long enough to know how amazing their typings are.
  12. Narutendo3

    Narutendo3

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    There's no way Fennekin will end up part dragon. If charizard isn't a dragon, then a desert fox certainly isn't. I think some people forget that every dragon type has dragon-like features. That dragon finalkin fan art didn't look dragon-like whatsoever. It just looked like a sort of lion or something. It didn't even really look fire type. It just looked like a boring normal type like most of the finalkin fan art.
  13. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    Because Flygon and Altaria are so dragon-like. It's not like I haven't mentioned them in the post or anything.

    And Charizard wasn't Dragon for the same reason Gyarados wasn't Dragon or we have so many reptile/Dragon-like pokémon since RBY but Dragonite was the only Dragon back then: they wanted, and want it that way. While many pokémon can be like Dragons, they aren't true Dragons except for a few. What I'm saying is that Fennekin becoming a Fire/Dragon, even though its initial design doesn't hint in any way to that, would be a massive curveball that I would totally expect from Game Freak. No one expected Blaziken's design, or Oshawott's samurai theme, or Emboar being bipedal out of nowhere.
  14. Infernis

    Infernis

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    Are we going with the least-expected typings? Because now would be a great time to introduce Water/Fire, Fire/Grass, and Grass/Water.

    Water/Fire is neutral against both other Pokemon with both STABs.

    Fire/Grass is neutral against both other Pokemon with both STABs.

    Grass/Water is neutral against both other Pokemon with both STABs.

    Crazy new types, man. (Asides from Ches-plus, who would be a Ludicolo knockoff.) If the game is actually set more south-southeasterly than Paris, that means we're in Switzerland. The home of neutrality. Isn't that a lark?
  15. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    I have no idea how this is possible

    but i so want this
  16. Narutendo3

    Narutendo3

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    Flygon and Altaria are dragon-like enough. Fennekin is just way too mammalian. And I know why Charizard isn't part dragon. It would just be laughable if we had a desert fox fire starter that's part dragon, while Charizard isn't. It would be a curveball, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it if I were you. There are plenty of more logical curveballs to throw us. I could easily see a fat, part steel fox before a dragon/fox.
  17. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    I know you're being sarcastic, but that I could expect too... I just think it's a bit too much. I could see them being all of the same type (lololo Fighting), but not all having the other's typing. Maybe because it would be too confusing? I don't really know how to express what I feel about this here.

    Of course, Fire/Steel is also possible. I never said part-Dragon is the most possible one, just that banking on something so "obvious" as Psychic is silly and that I'm betting on Dragon.

    And how are Flygon and Altaria so dragon-like?
  18. Jabroni

    Jabroni

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    Hm, Fennekin doesn't look like a dragon. And flygon looks fairly like a dragon. but would you have thought Trapinch was gonna be a dragon? The antlion/venus flytrap? or even vibrava? I think its hugely unlikely that Fennekin will be dragoning up anytime soon, but he's right. You can't know what a pokemon's final form will be just from seeing its stage 1.
  19. Flaming Piranha

    Flaming Piranha

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    I doubt any starter ever will get a secondary dragon typing. It's too OP a type to be getting so early on in the game, and everyone knows Gamefreak intend Dragon to be the rare, powerful and badass Pokémon you find near the end of the game, (See Salamence, Hydreigon, Dragonite)
  20. labarith

    labarith

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    If you have to ask, you'll never know.
    Rock is super effective against flying to there champ. I would think citing Gyarados you'd know this...
  21. LonelyWolf

    LonelyWolf

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    I didn't intend to answer so quickly, but this little buddy here insists me... And also I have few wise words to share with you all, so nobody wouldn't act in this forum like a person I'm going to mention.

    But yeah, Yveltal certainly has the point. I never thought it that way. I'd love it if GF could think about those items working on multiple pokemons. And also, when thinking about "real world methods" how evolution happens (all the Creationists shall be silent.), have they evolution methods which haven't been used yet? I doubt GF would use something like genetic manipulation really, because then they would be stating their opinion that it's totally okay to play with genetics. (I always thought that creating Mewtwo was a metaphor... It didn't end up well when considering humans). Also, even though this following idea is kinda weird... Could it be nice niche to have a Pokemon which colour will vary depending on the how much pollution there is in the air/water/ground? I have no idea how'd game mechanics be to achieve it, but I'm talking about "Peppered moth evolution" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution).
    That'd also be quite a good way to educate people about our impact on animals/environment.

    Now to the main point. The reason I'm now writing new post is my sons idea and I don't know has it been discussed before. Not at least in this thread.

    Could GF create Eevee-ish pokemon, which doesn't evolve like Eevee, but via all those items we use to evolve pokemon via trade? That'd be kinda cheap solution from GF if they are running out of ideas when considering "How we can create new fox-like Eevee evo, so it doesn't look like exactly the same?" (Yeah, I know you all Eeveelution fans will rage now... But I'm saying this just for my sons sake.. And what bad could it cause if we discuss the possibility?). But yeah, there they could use Reaper Cloth, Dragon Scale, Protector and so fort in that way. I find it easier to create those missing Ghost, Fighting, Flying, Dragon, Steel, Rock, Ground and so on types if they'd introduce new, maybe bipedal pokemon, which functions like Eevee in a way it evolves to heck of a lot different types.

    And Narutendo3 - Please.
    Why you again try to achieve hatred towards you from others? Couldn't you just think a minute longer before you post? I'll tell you what I mean (sorry, I don't know how to quate, but I try my best):

    Narutendo3: "There's no way Fennekin will end up part dragon."
    - Sweet narutendo, you should know that this is the forum for speculation. Did Mario With Lasers ever in some point say that this shall happen? No. (S)he even started with saying that (s)he's going to do some ridiculous speculation. My whole point is that when you're commenting, PLEASE, don't use so harsh ways to say what you think. You have a point if you're meaning to say it's highly unlikely, but when you're stating that it won't happen, it doesn't lead to anything else but hatred against you.
    (Although, I'd like to say that your argument about "looks" is total bullshit... You see, when talking about pre-evos of named Altaria and Flygon, which are NOT dragon-type and doesn't even look it'd become dragonlike someday. Then we have this fella Fennakin, which obviously doesn't look like a dragon and neither is self part-dragon... So looks have very little to do what would some pokemon evolve to.)

    I wish everyone who reads this could act "like an adult person" and realize this is the forum for speculation. If you're going to say that "something is not going to happen", please, explain using some reasons which aren't abstract. You see, looks and "the feeling in one's arse" are each persons own opinions. It's totally different to say "I doubt that" when comparing to way Narutendo3, which is quite disrespectful towards people who are just saying their speculation.

    All in all - No emotions, just speculation and competent reasoning ;)
  22. TheMrBassdude

    TheMrBassdude

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    That logic scares me, not gonna lie. I remember when Quiver Dance was the Special Dragon Dance that everyone wanted, and it was ok, because nothing got it (Volcarona's the only one in OU, right?). A fighting type Quiver Dance would probably go to EVERYTHING, because I can't see it having worse distribution then Bulk Up among fighting types.). And then, of course, we're gonna want a Calm Mind that boosts speed, which is also scarily OP. I like the boosting moves right where they are haha
  23. Flaming Piranha

    Flaming Piranha

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    That's what quiver dance is....
  24. TheMrBassdude

    TheMrBassdude

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    I meant the Psychic typing on it, to go with the buffed Bulk Up. Starmie, Alakazam, Mewtwo getting this thing? The typing was my main concern, not the effect, since, as you said, it's already in the game
  25. Flaming Piranha

    Flaming Piranha

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    Ah, my mistake. And I agree, that is very OP.
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