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Pokémon X and Y Discussion

Discussion in 'Trou Du Cul' started by Birkal, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. Mocha

    Mocha

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    Someone mentioned earlier about there needing more Flying type legendaries. Honestly? Eh, don't they have enough with Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Tornadus, Thundurus, and Landorus? I may be missing another. Not to mention, they've paired up just about every type with Flying, except Flying/Fighting (could be more). I mean, I wouldn't mind some alternate preexisting types with Flying, such as a better Ghost/Flying (yeah I love you too, Drifblim).

    They've also made plenty of Psychic and Dragon legendaries too. I'd like to see more Ghost, Dark (there needs to be better Dark Pokemon so badly) and POISON. Like wth is a Poison legendary?
  2. Infernis

    Infernis

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    Guys, I just found the greatest deviantart Fennekin evolution. Behold!

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    Link

    TROLOLOLOLO
  3. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Ghost/Steel haunted knight armor pokemon would be pretty great, even better if it had levitate. It doesn't even need obscene stats to be effective (though the way things have been going, I wouldn't be surprised if it had them). 80 HP / 100 Atk / 110 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 70 Spe would be perfectly acceptable with a BST of 530, and would fit well flavour-wise. Gyarados has 540 I believe, Volcarona 550, and most of the starter pokemon are 525-535 so it isn't excessive at all.
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    For the first, Sun already exists. Acid rain seems like an interesting idea, and another idea that I had is night. Boosting Dark-type and/or Ghost-type attacks, givinge people another reason to use them, apart from combating Psychic-types. They actually have great neutral coverage, like Water-type attacks.
  5. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    how does one pokemon of a type being very strong make the type OP? Does genesect make bug op? Reshiram make fire OP? White Kyurem make ice OP?
  6. Mymom234

    Mymom234

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    That means.... Froakie would be Water/Flying, Chespin is Grass/Rock..... and Fennicken.... OH GOD WHY

    Troll Freak strikes again.
  7. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Fighting isn't directly OP. The reason it is so successful is because its advantages FAR outweigh the negatives. SE coverage on 5 types, high BP moves to use (Close Combat, Superpower, Hi Jump Kick, etc), pokemon that tend to have the stats to use them well, pairs well with several other types.

    The negatives are: weaknesses to flying and psychic, resisted by flying, psychic, ghost, poison, and bug. Let's look at it.

    Flying has almost no competitive merit outside of resisting Ground and Fighting. The most widely distributed flying move is Aerial Ace, which is shit. Hurricane is not distributed well and requires rain anyway, Brave Bird is not distributed well, and the next best move is the barely average Air Slash. None of the most common flying-types have any reason to forgo a stronger coverage move for flying STAB (Mence and Nite have fire/ground, Zapdos/Thundurus have ice, etc), when their other STAB is so much better. Also, Stealth Rock makes them only 75% as useful in checking fighters.

    Ghost is easily the least common type, and even less are viable. Gengar is viable, Jellicent is viable, Chandelure and Mismagius are barely viable. They tend to have low HP and defenses, meaning that they will fall easily to a coverage move coming from strong attack. Ghosts also lack powerful moves, with Shadow Ball/Claw capping at 80 and 70BP. This limits their usefulness.

    The Bug-type is a joke. Nearly all of them have crippling flaws and the 5 or so viable ones are saved by either fantastic secondary typing, perfectly placed stats and movepool, or a kickass ability. Read: Scizor/Heracross, Volcarona, and Yanmega/Venomoth. Only 2 of those are OU, and the last 2 are very niche. Even then, Stealth Rock.

    Poison falls under the same category as bug, except GF made nearly no salvageable poison-types. Doesn't help that they can't touch the best and most ubiquitous defensive type in the game.

    Psychic. Probably the best fighting-type check, except that GF nerfed them so hard in Gen 2 that they have not recovered since. The best tend to be fast and frail (Alakazam, Starmie; even the Lati twins have unremarkable physical bulk).

    The fighting-type on its own is not overpowering (unlike the dragon type, which is intentional), but readily exploits the shortcomings of those types supposed to check it.
  8. Guppin

    Guppin

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    I don't think that the move is an ice type. It's just the water animating, although it DOES look like a snow flake it's just the water forming. Besides, it wouldn't make sense for them to show a water type using a ice move instead of its STAB.
  9. Quickster

    Quickster

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    Just give it Escavalier's stats and we're good. I mean they're both suits of armor and Esca's stats would fit perfectly on it anyway.
  10. Camara

    Camara

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    I would mess the little as possible in the type chart. I don't think a new type will be introduced, and in my opinion light type makes no sense.

    Still, I think some small tweaks should be done.

    Poison
    Poison is an horrible offensive type, being only effective against grass (and many of these are not weak to it) and being useless against the prime defensive typing. Not only this, to culminate their humilliation the best poison move in the game (Toxic) is learned by ALMOST EVERYONE. This makes no sense at all.
    Defensively poison is ok, resistance to fight and immunity to poison are good. But they are normal in the defensive department, no justification for their horrible offensive potential.
    IMHO, poison needs to score against something else. In Gen I IIRC they were good against bug, which makes sense, and although not being awesome would be enough IMHO. It would be great for poison to be super effective against water or steel (even if steel keeps not being able to be poisoned) to balance a bit these two great defensive typings.
    This poison buffing would also possibly make psychic pokémon more common, which would be good in my opinion, as psychic nowadays isn't that common.

    Normal
    Normal is that type everyone forgets isn't it? Well, normal sucks. Why?
    First, offensively it doesn't score super effectively against anyone, and there is one immunity and two resistances, one of them the prime defensive typing.
    But on the defensive, normal has one immunity and no resistances, and a weakness, against one of the best offensive types (Fight).
    The neutralness of normal is not actually true then. They are to all accounts a worse dragon type.
    What I would do here? I would simply remove the fighting weakness. Pure neutral defensive typing (excluding the immunity) but resisted by two types, and being useless against one. In my opinion this would be enough.

    Ice
    Defensively ice is horrible. But ice has the honour of being good against dragons (and good against other things). That IMHO makes ice balanced. In any case, another resistance can be added. Water would be interesting, and alternatively dragon would be very interesting. With resistance to dragon ice would be some kind of defensive weirdo, with lots of crippling weaknesses but a very desired resistance to dragon to decentralise steel on the dragon countering.

    Dragon
    I think dragon typing is supposed to be good. And don't forget many of the pokémon of this typing are pseudo-legendaries with great movepools and typings. Dragon is powerful but not broken - the pokémon of this type are the problem, too powerful it can be argued. Druddigon and Altaria are good pokémon, but they aren't uber immediately because of their typing. If something is to be introduced, then something like mentioned above.

    I also HATE combos with no weaknesses. So no neutralish dark/ghost. So I personally would make a weakness. Something simple like making ghost neutral to bug. That would do it and not break anything else (as bug is resisted by enough types already).
  11. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Ice resisting Water and Dragon would redeem the type significantly. I'd be all for that.

    EDIT: Also, all of the no weaknesses pokemon are perfectly manageable thanks to sub-par stats and limited actual resistances.
  12. Quickster

    Quickster

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    Giving Defog some kind of useful effect would by nice. It currently removes entry hazards on the opponent's side of the field which is obviously not good for the user. Maybe make it a weather-clearing move to balance weather?
  13. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    Oh my God, yes. This is my one wish that I am hoping for in Gen VI. This Ghost/Steel typing would fix practically all the issues on team I make, and would be able to say "screw you" to two of the most dangerous attackers in OU - Terrakion and Tornadus. Perfect Hydreigon partner, perfect Volcarona partner. My one wish.
  14. Cervantes3

    Cervantes3

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    Also, if you look at the video 2 seconds after this scene, you'll see that the move looks very much like hydro pump.
  15. Camara

    Camara

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    I also think it is not necessary to change this, it's my personal opinion that pokémon must have at least one weakness (hi troll Eelektross), excluding Normal pokémon that are... normal (according to my suggestion).

    Yes, the typing isn't that that great (neither Spiritomb and Sableye), but we never know when Gamefreak trolls us and creates a dark/ghost Lugia-esque pokémon with magic guard. Dear God.
  16. Blazen

    Blazen

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    I would love a Pokemon based on the Dullahan that is either Ghost/Steel, or Ghost/Fighting.

    Any speculation on stat spreads for the starters yet? I can see the Fennekin line being a fast specially focused Poke, though that could leave it too similar to Charizard, Typhlosion, and Ninetales (though if it is fire/psychic that could possibly shake things up).

    Depending on it's typing I can see Chespin's line being straight up bulky with an emphasis on the physical stats. This could also mean that he's the slowest of the three.

    Froakie could make for a good mixed attacker. I would love for him to be essentially a water type Infernape. Decent attack stats and speed, but just a little on the frail side.

    While I like the balancing act that Grass/Dark, Fire/Psychic, and Water/Fighting provides, I'm left wondering how useful they would be. Grass/Dark hasn't worked out too well yet and I think Shiftry has pretty much done all we could hope for with the typing.

    Fire/Psychic is just not a good type combo at all. Fire helps handle the bugs and steels that plague Psychics, but Psychic provides pretty much nothing for fire. The only advantage is that it Psychic types generally tend to get extra coverage moves. So hopefully this means a diverse movepool.

    Finally Water/Fighting is already covered pretty nicely by Keldeo. On top of that, a Water/Fighting frog, or toad is a bit redundant since we have Poliwrath (though this hasn't stopped GF before). I would be nice to be proven wrong about all this though. Like I said before, I like the in-game balance the combos would provide.
  17. Guppin

    Guppin

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    I second that. It would be a much better move if it removed weather, kind of like cloud nine and air lock.
  18. feriokun

    feriokun

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    100% agree with this. I hate only a handful of pokes being viable. It wouldn't take revamping stats even, just a good move would be enough for alot of pokes.
  19. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Normal shouldn't lose its weakness to Fighting. You don't want Chansey being the best wall from OU.

    An Water-type resistance for Ice would be interesting, and would make Ice-types somewhat viable, especially considering that hail has (ironically) a good matchup against Rain, in general.

    There were a lot of Psychic-types on RBY that weren't good despite Psychic-type being considered the best type.

    As for combos with no weakness, you should consider that the current Pokémon with no weakness, don't have the defensive stats to abuse this fact, and they also have almost no resistances to speak of. In fact, Sableye and Spiritomb both are easily countered, for example, by Heatran, which incinerates them with Fire-type attacks.
  20. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    So I've seen a lot of talk here about wanting a Ghost/Steel Pokemon, and I would love to see one as well. However, seeing the kinda stats people are suggesting, I just want to say, be careful what you wish for. I don't know how many of you have ever played in the CAP metagame, but Kitsunoh, our own Ghost/Steel creation is arguably the most useful Pokemon there is. The typing is just so amazing defensively that it serves to check a ton of common threats with it. And that with the amazing bulk of 80/85/80. Now, I know nothing that anyone has thought up really has the speed that Kit has that makes it so threatening, but even for something slower, I wouldn't want anything with that typing to have too much bulk. I want something fun to play with, not something that is so annoying to break that I just want it gone.
  21. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    What, Hypno? Mr. Mime? Pretty much every Psychic type was good, whether or not it was used depending on being outclassed or not, between Exeggutor, Starmie, TobyBro, obviously Alakazam.

    Expanding on Ice gaining a water resist, it makes sense. Water resists Ice because the latter is basically just water...so why doesn't it work the other way around? If anything, Ice should be good against water by freezing it, but eh.

    I don't play CAP, but what are some common ways to deal with it outside of fire? I'm assuming that without recovery it would fit right into the current OU. Some sample calcs, assuming the 80 HP / 110 Def / 100 SpD I suggested. The red ones are a similarly EVd Jirachi for comparison:

    299 SpA LO Starmie Surf vs 364 HP / 236 SpD Steel/Ghost: (46.43% - 54.67%) (41.83% - 49.26%)
    359 SpA Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs 364 HP / 236 SpD Steel/Ghost: (46.98% - 55.49%) (42.33% - 50.00%)
    389 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs 364 HP / 236 SpD Steel/Ghost: (46.43% - 54.67%) (41.83% - 49.26%)
    359 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs 364 HP / 236 SpD Steel/Ghost: (36.26% - 42.86%) (32.67% - 38.61%)

    Those are 2-3HKOs from some neutral hits in the tier, one of which is resisted. This is assuming that it focuses on being physically defensive. If it tries to be specially defensive, we have the following:

    369 Atk +1 LO Salamence Outrage vs 364 HP / 256 Def Steel/Ghost: (49.45% - 58.52%) (48.51% - 57.18%)
    394 Atk +1 Dragonite Fire Punch vs 364 HP / 256 Def Steel/Ghost: (68.13% - 80.77%) (66.83% - 78.71%)
    383 Atk +1 Gyarados Waterfall vs 364 HP / 256 Def Steel/Ghost: (53.02% - 62.64%) (51.98% - 61.14%)

    In other words, we've seen and dealt with this bulk in the metagame before. In exchange for Jirachi's higher speed, access to Wish, higher special attack, and slightly higher bulk on either end, this pokemon would gain the ability to check a different range of threats and lower susceptibility to spikes. 100 Base attack is nothing special either, just adequate.
  22. Cobraroll

    Cobraroll
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    I see several people here cry for stuff that "will make everything viable".To which I reply:
    You have no f-ing clue on how a metagame works.


    There you go. This isn't directed at anybody in particular. Being able to use everything successfully is a naïve idea at best.

    GameFreak has given us a little over seven hundred Pokémon, counting everything. Some are flat out better than others, and that's how it's supposed to be. If that Butterfree you get by grinding at Route 2 is just as strong as any other 'mon you'll encounter on your travels, it would make for a very boring game. Most of the early-game Pokémon will fall behind as the game progresses, urging you to catch something stronger later on. It's made this way to diversify the game experience.

    And in every game, some Pokémon will come out on top. The cream of the crop. Those you acquire after much struggle, thorough exploration of remote dungeons, and often a fair bit of grinding. For obvious reasons, those 'mons often make it into the Standard metagame.
    After around 20 titles, there will be a fair few of these Pokémon with better stats than the rest. Some might not have been able to keep up with the newer 'mons following them, but those have also acquired extensive movepools after having existed for all these years. If only every one in ten Pokémon are designed to stand out among those who exist to "fill out" the game, well, that group currently numbers over seventy.

    Sturgeon's Law goes: "90% of everything is crud". This can also be applied to competitive Pokémon. Whenever a large group of Pokémon are changed (or added), some simply come out better than others. Unless every single Pokémon is tailored towards balance, some Pokémon would always outperform others in some role. And tailoring everything towards balance requires tremendous effort, given the type chart and that the gameplay (and thus Pokémon in it) has to be progressive. They will never go to the effort of making everything viable. If they really wanted to, they could give a single Pokémon the tools to rise and shine in the metagame, but everything? Heck, no. It's simple math.

    So what causes the current domination we see of some types? For instance, Dragons? Well, endgame is usually dominated by Dragons. It's the "rare, exclusive" type, commonly reserved for the most badass among badasses. It's not meant to be privileged on the same level as lowly Bugs or Normal types. It's dragons, goshdarnit! Rare, cool, powerful! It's not that GameFreak purposely makes the Dragon type overpowered in the current metagame (and historically, they've never been shown to care much for competitive Singles), it's simply that the role of "late-game badass" is usually filled by dragons. Just by belonging to this exclusive group, they're not meant to be taken down by any old rodent and its cousin. Gameplay-wise, they are the reward you've spent the whole game earning. Of course they are overpowered.

    Also remember that we ourselves would make any attempts at total balance extremely hard. We're the guys who stay up all night trying to determine which Pokémon is the best Dark-resisting physically bulky Dual Screener. As long as something separates them, we will find the better one.
    GameFreak try to make the games somewhat balanced, so that friendly matches between people aren't dominated totally by a single play style, but on this site, we are hundreds of people intensely trying to find a dominating tactic from the games. It's a quasi hive mind, working full-time, around the clock, cooperating and discussing to find the 'mons with a tiny edge over the others. We put more man-hours into analyzing the games than GameFreak ever did designing them. To an outsider, or first-time player, Pokémon IS pretty balanced. However, with all the work the community (heck, communities, we borrow a bit from other sites as well) have invested, we've stripped the game down to its pure competitive core, where the minuscule differences between Pokémon in-game count a damn lot more than what first may appear to be the case. And with the extensive knowledge contained in the community, this core can be shared with and accessed by everybody with a bit of desire to play the game on a higher level. Once the road is paved, everybody might follow it. Picking out the Pokémon that make up the current Top 20, and finding the play styles we eventually decided were "overcentralizing" and "broken" would take decades for a single person.

    We cry out that "[Pokémon] is broken!" and "[move] should be banned!" as if these were glaring errors and GameFreak were a bunch of lazy, short-sighted, sloppy bastards that paid no attention to balance whatsoever. Yet it's really only our intense scrutiny of the game play that made us arrive at that conclusion. Years of work. It would be impossible for GF to make a metagame (which embraces a single-digit percentage of the total buyers of their games) wherein everything is viable for top-tier competitive use, even discarding in-game progression. In a game as complicated as Pokémon, there are bound to be some monsters or play styles that stand out when analyzed sufficiently. This isn't chess, and was never meant to be like it.


    Tl;dr: GameFreak really have better things to do than "adding stuff to balance the metagame and make old 'mons better the way we play the games". They pay it some attention, but they hardly base major decisions on the Pokémon Showdown 1337 usage stats. A balanced competitive metagame demands a lot more attention to design than they'll ever be willing to give it.

    EDIT: Just to clarify, this includes changing the type chart to suit our definition of "a balanced game". Such a move would alienate many of their non-competitive fans (who definitely outnumber us ten to one or more), for what, exactly? Whatever reason they might have had to change the chart or add new types, it wouldn't be to counter Dragon dominance.
  23. Preved Medved

    Preved Medved

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    Like 85/120/70/50/50/100?:naughty:
  24. Redjar

    Redjar

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    Those are Gamefreak stats, you need Trollfreak stats
    85/119/70/50/50/101.
  25. BlaqJstr

    BlaqJstr

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    As for Type combination that's new I'm hoping or a Fire/Poison. As for a new type in general I have no idea what they can think of next hell they just now gave Dragon its own Energy in TCG. <sorry it just took them forever to even do that >If there is a new type Ill pay 100 to the nearest Trainer. Swear to Arceus
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