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Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Its_A_Random, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Beedrill can OHKO Amaura with Rock Smash [Base 90 Atk and x4 effective]. It outspeeds Tyrunt and hits it hard with Rock Smash if it's got Swords Dance; and OHKO's with SD.

    Beedrill outspeeds Amaura and it doesn't always use Rock Tomb; hence why I said it is risky. Beedrill survives Take Down; and that is all it has to do since it proceeds to outspeed and OHKO everything else. The AI is not exactly great. Especially with the first two GL's. [For example; Viola usually spams Infestation regardless of anything else; be it a x4 resist that Tackle would hit harder or not. Grant tends to use random moves too; but not as badly as Viola.]

    That's why I said a sweep is a risk. There is a strong chance Amaura will Rock Tomb and either OHKO you or drop your speed so you can't sweep. But Beedrill can easily defeat Amaura at least with Rock Smash; and then deal hefty damage to Tyrunt.

    I think Carbink is more akin to most of the E pokemon than the D ones personally. It's slow; it's multi-hit KO'ing everything and slow to level.

    And if it wasn't for Swords Dance Beedrill would easily be E. But Swords Dance and good TM timing make it a bit more useful than things like Sentret.
  2. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    I am sorry but just no.

    50 Atk Beedrill Rock Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Amaura: 60-72 (77.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Beedrill Rock Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Amaura: 72-88 (93.5 - 114.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Beedrill Rock Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Amaura: 76-92 (98.7 - 119.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    Both are Level 25 with 15IV in every stat. If Amaura leads with Rock Tomb, it kills you. "Rock Slide" is Rock Tomb and "Tackle" is Take Down in the below calcs.

    0- Atk Amaura Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 48-56 (67.6 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0- Atk Refrigerate Amaura Tackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 45-54 (63.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Amaura Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 50-62 (70.4 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Refrigerate Amaura Tackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 51-60 (71.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I think that's pretty conclusive. Beedrill should not be anywhere near Grants Pokemon even with an SE move. You also don't scratch Tyrunt either...

    252+ Atk Beedrill Rock Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrunt: 28-34 (41.7 - 50.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO Same IVs as above.
    0 Atk Tyrunt Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 72-86 (101.4 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Either way, Beedrill is a horrible horrible choice for fighting Grant. Chances are you won't even be Level 25 either...
  3. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    I'm trying to recall if I critted Amaura then; because I recall OHKO'ing Amaura. I guess I did crit. After an entire run you can easily forget when you critted and when you did not.

    And as I said about Tyrunt; Beedrill hits it hard. I never said Beedill at +0 OHKO's it. I said Beedrill can OHKO Amaura and then deal heavy damage to Tyrunt.

    Also; knocking Amaura into the red should prompt Grant to heal it. If Rock Smash scored a -1 def you then proceed to OHKO.

    Obviously Beedrill is not 'SUPER AWESOME GODMODE' in this gym; but for a Bug-Type in a Rock Gym? It's impressive. Certainly performs better than Butterfree and Vivillion.
  4. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    If you are inherently relying on luck to take out Amaura with a Beedrill like what the above poster seemed to do, then that simply tells me that on average (assuming no hax), Beedrill loses to Amaura. End of story.

    Luck is one thing you should never rely on, even in an ingame run. Even the mentioned calculations while giving a decent summary of what you should expect, should not be fully relied on either, given the inherent inconsistency in how one performs in an in-game run. One run you could OHKO Amaura with Rock Smash. The next, Amaura would be comfortably in the yellow zone & in no danger of having to be healed.

    Why you would even expect Beedrill to do much in a Rock Gym anyway... lol
    Karxrida likes this.
  5. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Because I wanted to see how much Rock Smash did to Amaura with the x4 weakness.

    I didn't rely on luck; I just forgot that I got a crit during my test @_@
  6. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    If Pidgey is worthy of D tier, then it's not unreasonable to expect to see Beedrill in the same one. Decent attack and speed, good availability with a passable "useless period" (Medium Fast is actually kinda slow until L10 or so), two okay STABs with situational application, Swords Dance.

    I'm more bothered about seeing Helioptile in the same tier, though. Thundershock/Surf/Grass Knot doesn't seem that debilitating for offence until you get yourself a proper STAB.
  7. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Really you should have Parabolic Charge by the time you have beaten Ramos.
  8. Anty

    Anty

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    Im going to nominate Haunter w trade for A-Rank/Limbo A. Haunter appears mid-late game but it is still very effective. You get it just after the 5th gym in the spooky woods area. Its capture moves arent good at all, but straight away you can give it thunderbolt and venoshock, 2 strong move, one being stab. In 2 levels (lvl 33) it will learn shadow ball and after that you should evolve it. As soon as you arrive in the next town, you will be given the gengarite!! This makes it very strong and can take on the fairy gym with a mix of shadow ball and venoshock. After, you can teach it dazzling gleam which helps out with dark type team flare pokemon, okho'ing most without needing to m-evo. The psychic gym is very easy for it, as you will sweep with shadow ball! Also in that town, you can buy focus blast which will help a lot with the next ice gym and flares' houndooms. You get sludge bomb after that and you have a great move set of shadow ball/sludge bomb/dazzling gleam/focus blast. Amazing coverage. It is strong for the e4.
  9. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Personally I'd rather just evolve it right away, but L25 isn't too far from when you get the Sun Stone, so I guess there's no point in intentionally avoiding learning the best update to Thundershock it can have before the 5th gym. The recovery might make it worth keeping for later, too (since it's not taking physical hits very well).
  10. Litra

    Litra

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    That is what I did in X run using Heliolisk. Unfortunately, that meant letting the electric puppy lizard stay around leeching with Exp Share until it hit that level. The move itself wasn't exactly all that strong, so I had to rely on switching the thing in on Water-type attacks (Dry Skin is awesome).

    As for the statement on tier placement, I know where you are getting at. When I first wandered in this thread, I saw the tier it was placed being low and wondered why. Helioptile/Heliolisk was an early catch, surprisingly diverse movepool, amazing ability in shutting down enemy Water types (Siebold was my bitch), and good offense and speed. Then I took some thought to remember my Heliolisk only got to a high level mostly thanks to Exp Share being broken since there were few opportunities to actually use it. Heliolisk doesn't get a truly good STAB move until you beat Clemont so it's stuck with Parabolic Charge and Surf (I didn't use Grass Knot) until then. TM/HM availability aside, mine was spending most of its time in my run leeching experience or giving water-types not named Mega Gyarados the middle finger. As for Recovery, I remembered most of it being from Dry Skin switch ins since I dropped Parabolic Charge for being too weak.

    I do agree it could be placed a little higher in spite of the faults since it is a very handy Surf Slave if you didn't pick Squirtle or Froakie or didn't pick up the free Lapras.
  11. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    IIRC, one of the reasons for its tiering was due to its pre-evolution performance, which is below par. Base 70 Speed is okay early in the game, but Base 61 SpA was nothing home to write about, & its 44/33/43 bulk is in a nutshell, terrible. Basically it struggles to take a hit & at that point of the game, you do not really have a strong STAB besides Return which goes off your base 38 Attack. Parabolic Charge is okay, & sustainability helps, but its Base 50 Power is nothing special, & you will often struggle to OHKO with it. Heliolisk is a little better, & when you get the Thunderbolt TM it starts to get better, especially with its okay coverage & very decent special sweeping power, but its Physical frailty does cause for concern, although it has an okay special bulk. The majority of matchups from Heliolisk onwards are generally average with the odd good matchup (Siebold?) & the odd bad matchup (I guess Ramos & Clemont are tough encounters here). Also the omnipresent Black Belts/Battle Girls love to pray on Heliolisk, making things a bit tougher.

    I guess a tier jump could be needed for Helioptile, but at the very best, it is going to be C-Tier. It is simply too bad for B-Tier & too good for E-Tier.
  12. Litra

    Litra

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    I agree with the rank-up as C-Tier looks like the perfect fit due to good movepool and stats on the special side, but middling match-ups and terrible physical bulk. The match-up issues mentioned were almost the same ones I experienced (almost since Heliolisk did an okay job with Clemont except Heliolisk, which Mega-Cario took care of) down to its physical defense being so terrible even resisted attacks left marks since there were one too many times my Heliolisk actually got maimed by Flying-type attacks from full health, although that might have been in part due to a horrid Defense IV as well.
  13. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    I guess the lack of actual good matchups for Heliolisk also is a limiting factor. Eh; I'll hold judgement on D/C until I've finished my run with Manetric; who is pretty similar in playstyle and even phases of usefulness but has different coverage moves. I expect Heliolisk would be roughly level with Manetric.

    I mean; Manetric is 105 Sp.Atk 105 Speed and Heliolisk is 109/109. Electrike has a better early with Spark over Thundershock however. They both evolve around the same time as well [Helio should be aiming for 25; Electrike evolves at 26]

    So I'm fairly confident when I expect Heliolisk to be similar in placement to Manetric. The key differences between the two is Grass Knot against Flamethrower and the Normal Typing. I guess Manetric can perform better in longer fights lategame as well with a pusedo-setup in Electric Terrain; getting OHKO's in major battles Heliolisk would not with Thunderbolt.

    I do agree Helio is likly not B.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  14. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Yeah, B is definitely out of the question. Not enough offence and speed, or defence, or significant setup capability (aside from Charge Beam, which is unreliable).

    I do think Heliolisk has a coverage advantage over Manectric though - besides Grass Knot, it also has access to Surf (early and important), Focus Blast and Dark Pulse. Flamethrower is arguably more valuable than either of these, but probably not more valuable than all three.

    Both seem close enough and suitable for C, but testing comes first. I'm starting another run tonight or tomorrow too; think I know what I want to test (there's honestly way too many Pokemon in this game).
  15. Tomy

    Tomy

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    Ahah, so true. When I'll finish my exams I'll do another run too.

    What about Vileplume? I wrote her entry, it's in the previous page. Any feedback?
  16. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    I wouldn't put much weight on Dark Pulse; since that requires Waterfall and therefor comes after the 8th badge. There are no battles past that point where you would use Dark Pulse with the exception of Goletergheist.

    Surf is nice but again; there is a lack of major battles it is SE on; while Flamethrower lets Manetric beat Wulfric.

    That said; I'm not far enough in with Manetric yet to say for sure. On the other hand; I am far enough to give judgement on this:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Bagon/Shelgon/Salamence - D/E Tier
    -Availability: Rare encounter on Route 8.
    -Typing: Dragon until Salamence; where it becomes Dragon/Flying.
    -Stats:
    Bagon: 45/75/60/40/30/50
    Shelgon: 65/95/100/60/50/50
    Salamence: 95/135/80/110/80/100
    -Movepool:
    Don't even BOTHER looking at Bagon and Shelgon's level-up movepools; for they are barren and worthless. The first STAB this line gets is Dragonbreath at Shelgon 32. Running off a spectacular 60 base Special Attack.

    Mercifully; when you obtain Bagon; you should already have Hone Claws; and you are close to Shadow Claw; giving Bagon at least a usable attack. Return is added if you can actually manage to not have Bagon faint on you all the time; and Rock Tomb as well as Aerial Ace comes after Grant.Still; the lack of STAB is a massive thing.

    Bagon's movepool does not really improve until much later in the game after this. Zen Headbutt comes at Shelgon 37; and Crunch as well as Fly at 50 [And again Crunch at Salamence 55]. Dragon Claw comes at an eye-watering 61; although at least Mence can be tutored Fire and Thunder Fang. TM-wise past Grant; you have Flamethrower; Earthquake and Brick Break; all very lategame.

    This all spells trouble for the Bagon line.

    -Major Battles:
    Grant: Cannot do anything. Amaura will OHKO it; and Tyrunt will demolish it while taking minimal damage
    Korrina: If you have Shelgon; it may be able to overpower Meinfoo. Otherwise; useless.
    Ramos: If you are willing to fight a long battle; Shelgon can take this gym on quite handily with Evolite. But there are far easier ways.
    Clemont: Shelgon can defeat Emolga with relative ease with Rock Tomb; but is powerless against Magneton; and unlikely to defeat Heliolisk [Especially as it won't have Hone Claws set up from Magneton forceing it out]
    Valerie: Even if Dragonbreath was a useful attack you'd still be useless.
    Olympia: Even with Evolite Base 50 Sp.Def gets you wrecked here.

    Team Flare: Shelgon is pretty weak and gets overpowered in the later fights. Salemance may show up by the final Lysandre fight; and performs well there.

    Wulfric: If you are Shelgon: You die. If you are Salamence... well; you can OHKO Abomasnow with Flamethrower at least.

    Rival: Until the final fight; is fairly bad against everything but the starter and the Eeveelution. Salamence should be able to outright sweep the final fight; however; with the possible exception of Meowstic.

    Malva: Torkoal is the biggest threat here due to Stone Edge. Earthquake can clean up her other grounded fires; and Talonflame can be overpowered. Despite this; due to being outsped by half her team; Salamence may have issues sweeping.
    Seibold: Gyarados has Intimidate and Ice Fang. Clawitzer has Dragon Pulse; Starmie has Dazzling Gleam and Barbuncle has Stone Edge. Have fun.
    Wikstrom: Klefki may be dangerous but is hit SE by Flamethrower/Earthquake. Probopass with x4 weak to Earthqwuake has has bad offenses; Scizor is x4 weak to Fire; and Ageislash is crippled by Intimidate before being Roasted/EQ'ed.
    Dransa: Dragon Claw should dispatch of all of her pokemon; but Noivern outspeeds and therefor is very risky. Anyone else find it odd she uses the two weakest fully-evolved dragons with the choice in Kalos?
    Dianthia: You can OHKO Tyrantrum; and easily defeat Goltergheist. Goodra will likly survive a Dragon Claw and then Pulse you back. Hawlucha loses but will probobly get a decent blow off even with Intimidate. You lose against Aurous [Unless packing Brick Break] and M.Gardevoir outright.


    -Other: Slow EXP growth; needing to be babied for the best part of THE ENTIRE GAME; horrible level-up movepool; bad matchups and a complete lack of usable STAB until the E4 makes Bagon awful for in-game purposes. Salamence may be powerful; but even he does not redeem the Bagon line.

    Even if Shelgon is quite tanky with Evolite; it is still slow and rather frail against special attacks; and it's movepool is godawful. If not for Evolite I would be putting Bagon firmly in E.
    Banryu likes this.
  17. Jesterhead

    Jesterhead

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    My first play-through was Greninja/Gardevoir/Blaziken/Ampharos/Aegislash/Roserade, and most of those have already been tiered, none of which I disagree with, and Blaziken doesn't count. So, Ampharos!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Mareep / Flaafy / Ampharos

    C/D Tier:


    Availability: Route 12, right after the 3rd gym. Only in Hordes, but if you've still got honey, that won't be an issue. The issue will be the level catch-up but it will also most likely be an Ampharos by the time you get to the 4th gym, and you'll also have Ampharosite, one of the few mega-stones you can get pre-E4.
    Typing: Electric just kind of nothings the whole game. Only weak to ground, which isn't common, and only strong against water and flying, which also aren't common. Mega Ampharos adds a Dragon typing, which gives it a strong STAB and some handy resistances, but also adds weakness to dragon/fairy/ice, so the choice to evolve can be tricky at times
    Stats: Ampharos has a very solid 115 base Special Attack, boosted to 165 in Mega form. It's very slow, especially in Mega, but it has surprisingly good bulk and can take at least neutral hits well, so it's not always a big deal.
    Movepool: Upon evolving, Ampharos gets Thunderpunch right away, which goes off his significantly worse Attack stat, but it's still usable for the short time you have to use it. Discharge comes at level 40, and Thunderbolt comes from gym 5. It's movepool in general is pretty barren, but it learns all it needs to. Rock Gem at 35. Thunder Wave and Confuse Ray compliment the set pretty well until Signal Beam comes at 51 and you get Dragon Pulse from the Move Relearner in Dendemille.
    Major Battles:
    Ramos: Can't really do anything here. And Gogoat will wreck him with Bulldoze
    Clemont: 4x resist goes a long way here, and Rock Gem is usable on all but Magneton
    Valerie: Don't go mega and you should do okay. Again, electric just kind of nothings the game.
    Olympia: Mega-Ampharos has the power and special bulk to hold his own here, no real strength or weakness here(sensing a pattern?)

    Team Flare: Again, pretty neutral all around. Takes Lysandre's Gyarados just fine thanks to a water resist.

    Wulfric: Stay out of Mega and Rock Gem is your friend.

    Rival: Once you get Signal Beam, it'll take out Absol. Thunderbolt for Greninja. Rock Gem takes care of Delphox. Chesnaught can't do much to you either, and has low Sp. Def.

    Maiva: Resists fire and and kills everything with Rock Gem.
    Seibold: Resist water and kills everything with Thunderbolt. Watch out for coverage moves from Gyarados(Ice Fang), Starmie(Dazzling Gleam), and Clawitzer(Dragon Pulse)
    Wikstrom: Eh, not much use here. I just used Blaziken.
    Dransa: Stay out of Mega and blast away with Dragon Pulse
    Dianthia: Thunderbolt frys Hawlucha, No use against Gourgeist or Gardevoir. It can use Rock Gem on Aurorus and Dragon Pulse on Tyrantrum and Goodra, but again, stay out of Mega form.

    Final thoughts: Can't say much about Electric types in this game. You're running neutral almost all the time. It gets good coverage, but not great coverage. I wouldn't encourage Focus Blast because of the accuracy, but it's an option. It's one of those "lucky" few to get a mega-evo for the play through, but Dragon typing hurts it half the time so you have to be careful with it. Above all else, that low speed is what brings it down to C and probably even D. Even with its relatively good bulk, constantly getting hurt first is going to keep wearing Amphy down. Still, it is one of the better Electric-types available and hits like a truck in Mega form. Fun pokemon to use and will definitely pull its weight all the way through.

    I'm smack in the middle of a play-through with Chesnaught/Alakazam/Gengar/Jolteon/Azumarill/Charizard, so we'll see if Jolteon/Gengar still need tiering
  18. Littha

    Littha

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    Nidoking/queen is beyond awesome in game. You can get a hiden ability nidoran from a horde pretty early in the game and it evolves into nidorino/a at level 16 and strait into its final form with a moonstone.

    Mine had an expert belt as soon as it could and due to its insane move coverage could easily have soloed the rest of the game had I not been deliberately avoiding over leveling it.
  19. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    It is worth mentioning Nidorina is guaranteed 3 perfect IV's if you catch it. [But it cannot have Sheer Force]

    Hidden Ability Nidorans come down to pot luck however. Although using Sweet Scent makes finding them easier; they lack moves which trigger it so you either have to just pray or trigger Poison Points; which isn't 100%.

    Nidos also have some pretty bad gym matchups later in the game; and the endgame is full of rather fast pokemon. I wouldn't call them 'beyond awesome'; although I'd expect B; maybe at a push A for Nidoking. They are certainly not S; which is what I would call 'beyond awesome'.

    @ Jesterhead: Can you give your opinion on Doublade/Ageislash? Limbo is pokemon who are disputed between the two levels.
  20. Littha

    Littha

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    Mine went through the most of the remaining gyms with great ease. Fighting, Grass, Electric and Fairy were pushovers and 2/3 of the Psychic leaders pokemon were weak to thunderbolt. The ice gym was admittedly a bit of a hassle though.

    I would say that he did start getting outsped later on, though most of what did still couldn't 1 hit him and tended to get taken out in response (there are not that many fast water, ground or ice types out there and not many psychic types total). Maybe not the best pokemon out there but they were not hard to find + had great coverage + Sheer Force.

    That said I might be underestimating the difficulty of coming across hordes for others, I had a combee at the time with sweet scent just for attracting hordes.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Nidoking and Nidoqueen: A Tier
    Availability: Route 11 hordes contain both nidoran male and female with the potential for hidden abilities (which in this case is great), Nidorina can also be caught on route 11 (though without a hidden ability) and always has at least 3 IVs at 31.
    Stats: With 505 BST Nidoking and Nidoqueen both live in the mid range of pokemon stats wise. Neither has overwhelmingly high attack or special attack stats Nidoking's attack 102 is the highest between them but they both have moderate bulk (81/77/75 and 90/87/85 repectively).
    Typing: Poison/Ground is actually a rather good typing, at least for in game as your STAB moves hit nearly everything at least neutrally and having both fighting and fairy resists are nice while a 4x poison resist helps due to the huge number of NPC trainers that use poison types.
    Movepool: Nidoking and Nidoqueen have a rather shallow levelup movepool, especially if you want to run special attacks on them. That being said they learn a huge range of TMs and thus you can have your pick of Thunderbolt/Thunder/Ice Beam/Blizzard/Surf/Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb and thus you only really need Earth Power from level up to make an extremely diverse moveset.
    Major Battles: I caught my Nidoran as soon as possbile and while it began about 10 levels lower than the rest of my pokemon (due to being from a horde) it quickly caught up and proceeded to singlehandedly destroy 5 of the remaining 6 gyms and 3/4 of the elite 4. Around 70% of everything in the game is hit super effectively by an Electric/Ice/Ground/Poison move set.
    Additional Comments: Ideally you would want a Nidoran with its hidden ability to really function in the best possible way but failing that Nidorina can be rarely encountered on route 11 and comes with at least 3 perfect IVs which may make up for the loss of Sheer Force.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  21. Jesterhead

    Jesterhead

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    In response to Raikaria, I feel pretty safe in putting Doublade and Aegislash in A. Same tier, of course, because that dusk stone comes far too late to make a difference. Now it has all the makings of a great in-game pokemon. Excellent typing providing numerous resists and immunities, good match-ups against a few gyms and some of the E4, and comes very early.

    However, there are a few things that I think edge it out of A status.

    You get Shadow Claw/Sneak right away, which are great STAB's, but it is quite some time before you get Iron Head and even longer for Sacred Sword. The only other moves are Aerial Ace, which works on Ramos, but sucks otherwise, and Return, which provides no extra coverage at all. And there are plenty of dark and normal types to make its poor coverage for a while pretty annoying. Then there is, of course, its speed. Getting hit first is always a problem that drags 'mons down, although it's not the worst problem for Doublade, as it has pretty respectable bulk with Eviolite. However, even with Eviolite, special attacks can be hard to take, and Honedge can't take them worth a crap, which can be problematic when it doesn't evolve until level 35.

    You get the idea. Doublade/Aegislash is wonderful. Comes early, excellent typing, good coverage eventually, good physical bulk, etc. But the speed and the still-pretty-low special bulk and the waiting on good coverage moves all drag it out of S into a solid A-tier status.
  22. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    C sounds good for a much slower Venusaur/Roserade with a much later Petal Dance.

    I'm not so sure about A for Nidoking though, definitely not 'queen. Sheer Force has a chance to appear on a Nidoran from a horde; how many male Nidorans do we have to catch exactly to get the right one? There's also the issue of that Nidoran being underlevelled and requiring babying in comparison with the immediately applicable Nidorino, who may well have the inferior ability.

    Another problem I detect in that analysis is the mention of Nidoking being capable of soloing the game. I think Nidoking's contributions as just one of the members of a sizeable party are a lot more humble, as not only is his speed insufficient to outspeed plenty of threats but even his Sheer Force-boosted attacks will also often be insufficient to score fast kills. For example, I certainly don't expect Nidoking soloing Sigilyph and Slowking (the more specially defensive of the two slowpokes) with Thunderbolt without a big level advantage / Exp Share.

    Queen isn't that different from King; maybe both would fit right in in B?
  23. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Queen is arguably better lategame since it's bulkier so dosen't get KO'ed as often before it can attack like King can. But King is better until then.

    Likewise; caught in their middle forms; X's Nidorina is easily better than Nidorino due to the 3 IV's.

    Horde Nidorans need babying; and all Nidos struggle from Gyms 7~8 and aren't great at the E4 [But usable]

    I still think they MIGHT push into A; but I'm more inclined for B; albeit; the upper end of it. They both have a really strong midgame.

    Been too busy to really get much further with my current run; so I can't say too much. I'm nearing the point where I feel like I wil be able to pass judgement on Pansear/Simisear however.
  24. Mieel

    Mieel

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    i think i missed something here: How come Nidorina has 3IV?
  25. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Because Nidorina does not breed (as in it is in the "No Eggs" Egg group, with legendaries and Baby Pokemon) it for some reason falls into the gap of having 3 Perfect IV's. Its a strange quirk that seems exclusive to Nidorina/Nidoqueen.

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