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Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Its_A_Random, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. BlazeStarter

    BlazeStarter

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    I do agree that finding an Old Amber is quite difficult. I've yet to get one, but I'll find one at some point.
  2. Jesterhead

    Jesterhead

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    I've gotten an Old Amber without trying both times I played through... I didn't know it was rare? lol
  3. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    Opportunity cost usually does not apply until you actually get the Pokémon. That is, rarity is generally not factored into a Pokémon's tiering, if not, minorly.

    For precedent on this tier list, see: D-Tier Cryogonal & Kecleon, as well as A-Tier Heracross. All these Pokémon have very low encounter rates (especially Cryogonal), yet are rated in their respective tiers on their own merits (In regards to Cryogonal, the ability to do well against Drasna & Siebold w/ Freeze-Dry, as well as its decent speed is one of the main reasons for its tiering). All of these could be a tier lower if we really wanted to make rarity something we really wanted to worry about. Rarity is currently not really considered that much, if at all.
  4. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Are we ignoring the precedents set in the previous in-game tier projects then? For instance, RBY Tauros and Chansey are as low as they are only because of the difficulty of meeting and capturing them; otherwise Tauros in Top/High and Chansey in High/Mid would've been the way these two would be handled. Other examples of such availability issues would be the swarm Pokemon in GSC, the odd eggs and the expensive Game Corner mons like Porygon.

    Personally I think the punishment should be proportional with the difficulty of obtaining a specific mon. I wouldn't punish Heracross at all for instance; or rather his possible punishment wouldn't warrant a tier drop in my book.

    Not trying to force my view on this, but if the policy of availability / rarity / difficulty of capture isn't changed, I'd also argue that friendship mons (namely Espeon) and Sylveon aren't penalised for the time necessary for their evolution either, because at least the time required to evolve these two is pretty much fixed, whereas you could be looking for an Old Amber for less than a minute or you could take an hour to find one. A choice to ignore the difficulty of capture but penalise the difficulty of evolution seems illogical to me however.
  5. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Ive been in that cave for hours and still not found an Old Amber ;_; I have Anorith/Shieldon fossils out the wazoo though...

    Its_A_Random I tend to take rarity into account for something. Especially something like Cryogonal who is like 30~45 mins to find (if not worse). Most of the mons on this game I have are common. Doduo took the longest time to get :o
  6. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    M.Gardevoir has a pretty high Sp.Def [Base 135] and Slowking also has a pretty high HP and Sp.Def [95/110]. I've admittedly not used Gengar or done my own calcs however; but I'm not 100% sure on the OHKO's; especially if you are below them on levels.

    Glyph and Meowstic should be easy OHKO's though.

    Also I got TWO Ambers in a single pass of Glittering Cave while I was booting out Team Flare. I guess the rate is lower postgame since there are additional fossils; but as far as I have seen Old Amber is very common.

    And if we were ignoring capture difficulty; Kangaskhan would easily be A; not C.
  7. Korlashh

    Korlashh

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    In my opinion, Pokemon should really not be tiered lower by factors based purely on chance (encounter and catch rate, or Aerodactyl's old amber finding rate). Pokemon should be tiered based on their usefulness entirely after catching, but noted in availability that it is a rare encounter. If a player wants a pokemon that fights like an A-tier pokemon (hypothetically), then they'll take the time and effort to catch it.

    That includes friendship evolution because, 100% of the time, you have to train it to max happiness and level it up to evolve it. In Espeon's case, I had to ride my bike on Cyllage City's track to max its happiness and evolve it in time for Psybeam, so I tiered it a letter down because that is an inconvenient event that is undergone for every Eevee that wants an Early-game Psybeam and pwn face the rest of the game.

    As for Cryogonal, I found and caught it as I was playing through the story (aka not grinding away time trying to look for it). Call me lucky, but I find it fair to tier it based on its potential after catching it. I would nominate it low on the basis that its only useful attack is Ice beam, it has paper defense, it comes late with not-so-good matchups (ice gym, fire/water/steel E4).
  8. BlazeStarter

    BlazeStarter

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    Another case of RNGod again... I hate that it's ridiculously tough at times.
    Ex.: In my Pokemon X, I found Honedge immediately when I was going to get Aegislash. In Pokemon Y, when I tried finding it, it took me at least 30 minutes.
    I say "Again" because I play quite a few games that have XX% chance to hit, and XX% to do X amount of damage.
  9. orangelemur

    orangelemur

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    I'd assume we aren't allowed to tier based on any wonder traded pokemon? I started my x game over and wondertraded to see what I could get, and got a Squirtle, Aron, and Goomy.
  10. cant say

    cant say

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    I definitely agree with you but in previous in-game tier lists rarity has never actually hindered a pokemon's placing. HGSS Scyther is 'uber' tier and Hercross is 'top' tier despite having to get lucky with the bug catching contest and headbutt respectively. BW2 Eeveelutions placed high despite a 5% encounter rate. Looking back at them now they all just get notes in their availability section explaining that they can be hard to find. So if Aero does perform well (like I said I'm yet to use him) then he should be placed in the appropriate tier with a note explaining that Old Amber sucks to find
  11. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    Correct. All in-game tier lists assume that no pokemon or items are obtained through interaction with other games. Only pokemon, items, and TMs obtainable in that game may be factored in, and they only matter from the point you obtain them onwards.
  12. orangelemur

    orangelemur

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    Raichu/Swanna/Victreebell/Rhyperior/Houndoom/Slurpuff is who i'll be using in my current runthrough.
  13. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Not correct. Have a look at Tauros's and Chansey's tiering over here.

    Have a look at Heracross's and Munchlax's tiering here.

    Or the roaming dogs' tiering here. Also applies to Mesprit in the above link.

    In Scyther's case, I believe it was simply argued the difficulty of catching it is negligible, though I personally don't agree with this considering Lapras was indeed punished for being available only on one day of the week, even though you have a full team able to capture it, it's a fixed encounter and doesn't depend on having a certain ability to function better.
  14. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    One in-game run, it could take you a minute to find an Old Amber. The next, it could take you one hour to find an Old Amber.
    One in-game run, it could take you a minute to find a Cryogonal. The next, it could take you one hour to find a Cryogonal.
    One in-game run, it could take you a minute to find a Bunnelby. The next, it could take you one hour to find a Bunnelby.
    One in-game run, it could take you a minute to find a Honedge. The next, it could take you one hour to find a Honedge.

    The same argument about trying to find an Old Amber can be applied to any Pokémon you could find in the wild by chance. Every Pokémon that is not handed to you on a plate has an "opportunity cost" associated with finding it. Some might have a bigger opportunity cost than others, but currently:
    Do we move Honedge down to B-Tier because there is the off chance that you could spend an hour trying to find a single Honedge?
    Do we rank Goomy E-Tier because there the off chance that you may have to throw 40 Dusk Balls at it before it is caught?

    There is so much inconsistency between run to run that trying to find & get the Pokémon should have a minor influence in tiering at best. That is not to say that I will not change my mind on the whole not factoring opportunity cost until the Pokémon arrives policy either. Sure I get that it could take longer on average to find a Cryogonal than a Bunnelby, but I am not convinced as of yet that the difficulty of capture should have more of an influence than intended.

    Just saying, Porygon is a poor precedent to mention since as with the Eevee evolution thing, the waiting time is consistent. Also different tier lists with different leaders tend to have different policies on the whole pre-catch opportunity cost thing. atsync/Mekkah may have had the policy with the RBY Tier list that it should be taken into account a fair bit. Stellar/SuperJOCKE may or may not have had the same idea with the BW2 tier list. I am of the opinion that it should not be taken into account for most Pokémon, but it can have a minor influence if the Pokémon has an abnormally low encounter rate. I think that how the Pokémon performs & how much it can contribute when you get it is of higher importance than how difficult it is to get it. If the difficulty of capture is very high, then it could be factored to some extent. This is why Sylveon is ranked like it is (C-Tier), because when you get Eevee, the time you take to try & evolve it consistently bogs down the run. Alongside this, it is not the fastest Pokémon in the world, & a few other factors.

    Yeah, idk. I guess it might be a good idea to look over the tier list again & bog down those with high capture difficulty/move up Sylveon & co. But... Yeah. I am naturally agreeing with Korlashh on this one, & that we should not be trying to put a major emphasis on capture difficulty, but I am not going to slam the door on the possibility of a policy change. Not at all.
    Karxrida likes this.
  15. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Just wanted to quote this for emphasis because I agree with it completely, not just for this issue but for all policy regarding how things are tiered. I've always viewed each tier list as its own thing, and I don't think that things have to be done in a particular way just because another tier list lead by (and put together by) different user/s did it that way.

    I have no real strong opinion about the rarity thing for this particular list. The only thing I care about is being as consistent as possible within the tier list. If you penalise a Pokemon for a particular flaw, you should be sure to hold everything else to the same standard.
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  16. cant say

    cant say

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    Lucchini ok so maybe saying never affected was a bit of a stretch, but those are some extreme examples. In the safari zone you have to account for first finding them and not making them flee. Honey trees are just ridiculous in themselves, and of course the roaming legends are annoying... Fortunately in X and Y there is no Safari Zone with fleeing pokemon, no honey trees that take 6 hours to spawn pokemon, and the only roaming pokemon in the game don't count as they're post-game. So while rarity will still count in this list it won't be knocking down potentially top tier pokemon to the bottom. So yeah I agree with what Its_A_Random is saying, each playthrough can be very different. I think the tier list is used more in terms of 'I just caught this pokemon, how good is it going to be'? Of course there are the people who will want to refer to the list before they start their playthrough when planning out their team, and that's what the descriptions are for. So if for example Aerodactyl does make it to A tier, whoever is reading it will see that they have to first find Old Amber and that it can be a real pain, and they can then take that into consideration
  17. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    Yeah, I think that difficulty catching the pokemon (or obtaining items/TMs/etc. needed for that pokemon) should be ignored. Any pokemon that isn't flat-out given to you by NPCs has a chance of it taking a very long time (or even forever, literally) to obtain. For some pokemon it is a different chance than others, but no guarantees. Each pokemon also has a chance of not even taking a minute to obtain, just some pokemon have a different chance than others.
  18. cant say

    cant say

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    Mulan15262 I don't think it should be ignored though, it still needs to count for something. Pokemon that are handed to you are obviously going to rank higher because they get you through the game easier. It just shouldn't be a major factor. Like; 'Oh man Aerodactyl destroyed the game. I didn't need anything else. Oh, but it did take me a couple hours to find which majorly sucked. E TIER!!' But also it shouldn't be S tier because we ignored the capturing part. I dunno, we've just gotta be reasonable. I'm just gonna go do my playthrough(s) with him and decide then...
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  19. SimicCombine

    SimicCombine

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    I always thought "is a pain to acquire" was worth one tier in viability. "Wrecks everything, but takes an hour to catch" and "wrecks most things, but is easily caught" both sound like A tier to me.
  20. BlazeStarter

    BlazeStarter

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    I finally got access to my Pokemon X team, and I made one with all different types. Here's my setup:
    Delphox:
    Appearance: Starter Pokemon, very easy
    Type: Fire/Psychic, useful against a variety of Leaders and Wikstrom. Main issues are Dark types. Ghost can be countered with Shadow Ball, and Water, Rock, and Ground can be countered with Grass Knot to some limit, if the Pokemon is heavy enough.
    Stats: High Special areas, low in Physical areas, with fair Speed. EVs should go to Defense, Sp. Atk., and a third stat of choice that's not Attack
    Movepool: Not diverse, few various move types are available. I run Flamethrower, Psychic/Psyshock, Shadow Ball, and Grass Knot.
    Major Battles: Number of type advantages against some Gym Leaders and Elite Four Wikstrom. Is able to take on Diantha's Mega Gardevoir.
    Other: Most of its moves through leveling up are Fire or Psychic. The best way to get Shadow Ball is through a Heart Scale, Grass Knot from Ramos, and Flamethrower and Psychic/Psyshock are learned through leveling up.
    Tier: A

    Lapras:
    Appearance: Given by Pokemon Breeder outside Shalour City, easy if you talk to many people.
    Type: Water/Ice, has four weaknesses, but only Electric can be a major issue.
    Stats: Immense HP, moderate across the other stats, with a low Speed. EVs can go to Speed, Attack/Sp. Atk. (depending on given stats), and HP.
    Movepool: Deceptively diverse, only has Water/Ice through leveling up, but TMs reveal another story. Has access to Electric and Psychic moves, and even Dragon Pulse (don't use it, use Ice Beam), can be breeded with Ancient Power, earlier games can give it Iron Head and Signal Beam for even more diversity.
    Major Battles: Due to Speed, it's tough to use it. Not many after it have a weakness to Water and Ice as well.
    Other: Not much.
    Tier: B-C

    Xerneas:
    Appearance: X only, in Team Flare HQ, easy to get to, but late in game.
    Type: Fairy, only weak to Poison and Steel, both which can be countered with Psychic and Focus Blast, respectively.
    Stats: High HP, Attack and Sp. Atk. are equal, Speed and defenses are lower. Raise Speed, the lower defensive stat, and the attack stat of your choice (mine was physical, with Horn Leech, Night Slash, Megahorn, and Moonblast)
    Movepool: Fairly large, access to Steel, Electric, Fighting, and Outrage (Lv.93), with some others sprinkled in.
    Major Battles: As it comes fairly late in the game, there's few remaining at that point. Helps against Lysandre's Mienshao and Mega Gyrados, and ignores Outrage. Other than that, there's few major battles out of those.
    Other: Geomancy, its unique move, is risky; it takes two turns to raise its special stats and Speed two levels. When catching it, you should be grateful, but watch out for Moonblast. That's a very nasty boost.
    Tier: S-A (Ignore, it was just a part of my type-variety team)

    Hawlucha:
    Appearance: Route 10, before the Shalour City Gym. It's fairly early in the game, and it's a pain to fight if you don't have the right Pokemon. The issue is finding one. A friend and I talked about Pokemon on Route 10, and they're fairly rare.
    Type: Fighting/Flying seems like a strange combination, but only has a few weaknesses in Electric, Flying, Ice, and Fairy. Ice isn't a problem, and so is Flying with a Rock type move. Strangely, it has Dig to counter Electric types, but it has a two-turn wait, so it can be switched fairly quickly. Steel Wing can handle Fairy types, so it has moves that can counter all of its weaknesses... but it takes up three move slots.
    Stats: Its Speed makes it hard to catch, but its other stats are somewhat lower, bar Attack. EVs should go to Sp. Def., Attack, and a third stat that's not Sp. Atk.
    Movepool: It's sort of explained in its typing. It has a good variety to counter its weaknesses, but Flying Press, learned early on through leveling up, is nasty against the right opponents.
    Major Battles: With Flying Press, you can best Korrina's Gym in almost every way, barring her own Hawlucha. Ramos' Gym is similar, bar Weepinbell. The rest are very bad choices to bring it out in.
    Tier: A-B

    I still need to update this, so I'll add on more later on.
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  21. sickweare

    sickweare

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    I'll nominate/back Houndour

    B-tier (X)
    Availability: Right around the second gym, shortly before evolving which is part of the reason it's effective
    Type: Fire/Dark which is still a unique combo to this day
    Stats: 75/90/50/110/80/95 high offensive stats and good abilities for in-game purposes
    Movepool: Limited, but effective with fire type and dark type moves mostly. Its level-up movepool includes Ember (right away), Feint Attack, Fire Fang, and TMs come in handy, like later on for flamethrower and dark pulse as well as sludge bomb. Other than that, it has few options to play with.
    Major battles: It comes at at time where it isn't useful (2nd and 3rd gym), but picks up from there.
    Grant: Don't even try
    Korinna: See above
    Ramos: Does well here, takes on all of his Pokemon well, but must be careful with Gogoat's Bulldoze
    Clemont: Does well. It takes on Magneton and Heliolisk with ease (thanks to dry skin), and Emolga shouldn't be a huge problem because of its frailty.
    Valerie: Does surprisingly well. It kills Mawile and Mr. Mime easily thanks to Fire STAB against Mawile and Mr. Mime's low defense stats (use feint attack against him). Sylveon isn't a great matchup
    Olympia: Does well here, but has to be careful when dealing with Slowking
    Wulfric: Utterly destroys this gym

    Team Flare: Average. It can't do much to other Houndours, but it can deal with the rest of the commonly used flare pokes
    Lysandre: Poor matchup against all of his Pokemon except Honchkrow who you don't want Houndoom in on anyway.

    Malva: Takes down Chandelure with ease. The rest are no goes
    Wikstrom: Destroys all but Probopass.
    Drasna: Can't do much
    Siebold: Should avoid this battle

    Diantha: Kills Gourgheist and takes on Gardevoir pretty well if you use a physical dark type move or sludge bomb (Gardy's frailty ont he physical side is the reason I say this)

    Overall I was happy with Houndour's performance. It evolves quickly upon capturing, and it has very good gym matchups as well as average-to good amtchups everywhere else. It's overall a solid Pokemon to use in X.
  22. Ryolain

    Ryolain

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    I agree with this reasoning, with the added note that it should maybe only be a factor for things that are either notably hard to find or, on the flip side, can't be missed. For example, since you literally can't NOT get Lucario, that works in his favor. Since Old Amber is a pain in the ass to find (I've been hunting for close to an hour now), that works against Aerodactyl. But something that has, like, a 30% appearance rate vs a 70% appearance rate or something probably isn't enough of a difference for it to really matter.
  23. orangelemur

    orangelemur

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    Let's talk about Meowstic and Nidoking.

    [​IMG]
    Meowstic(F): - C Tier
    Availability:
    Outside of the Parfum Palace. Fairly easy to acquire.
    Stats: Average defensive stats, above average SpA and SpE.
    Typing: Psychic isn't the great typing that it once was. Team Flare regularly carries dark types which can ruin Meowstic's day, though she does well against the poison types they also carry. She is very fast though, and her varied movepool enables her to set up screens, try to set up Calm Minds on a special attacker, or fire off a quick Thunder Wave. She also evolves fairly quickly at 25.
    Movepool: Very nice and balanced movepool. She can learn both screens, Thunder Wave, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Charge Beam, Calm Mind, Energy Ball, Dark Pulse, Thunderbolt, Signal Beam, and Fake Out. This is Meowstic(F)'s saving grace, she has the SpA and SpE to make a variety of attacks work for your team.
    Major Battles:
    Grant: She should be evolved by now. While she's not bulky, her monster SpA stat should help pump out those Psybeams.
    Korrina: Definitely wrecks here.
    Ramos: Can wreck Weepinbell. Can also Toxic Gogoat, but he and Jumpluff can hurt.
    Clemont: Can set up a Light Screen, but not too terribly effective here. She can learn Dig, though, if you wanted to try to use her.
    Valerie: Actually does well here. She can set up on Mr Mime and Sylveon with screens and Toxic and Shadow Ball/Charge Beam away.
    Olympia: Same thing as Valerie. Set up and Shadow Ball.
    Wulfric: Don't recall using her here.
    Malva (Fire): Don't recall using her.
    Wikstrom (Steel): Don't recall using her.
    Drasna (Dragon): Can beat Dragalge and perhaps Altaria with some setup.
    Siebold (Water): Can beat Clawitzer, Starmie, and Barbaracle with Thunderbolt. Might be able to beat Gyarados if it outspeeds.
    Diantha: Can beat Hawlucha. Don't recall using it on anything else.
    Additional Comments: Mine was named Meowschwitz, and I love it for that. Definitely not a top tier mon, but I enjoyed using it through endgame. Unforunately her lack of bulk and fairly poor in-game typing drop her down to C, in my opinion.

    [​IMG]
    Nidoking: - A Tier
    Availability:
    You can find Nidorino/Nidoran on Route 11. You also get a Moon Stone in Reflection Cave almost immediately.
    Stats: Nicely balanced stats. Fairly balanced stats except for its above average Att.
    Typing: Poison is an incredible offensive type in game. Adding Ground just breaks it, making it weak to Water, Ice, Psychic and Ground, all of which are pretty easy to spot coming.
    Movepool: Extremely varied and useful movepool. Mine at the end had Surf, Ice Beam, Poison Jab, and Earthquake. Nidoking learns Earth Power at 43 and Megahorn at 58, but he learns so many useful TMs, its not even funny.
    Major Battles:
    Grant: Nidorino should know Double Kick, which isn't the best move, but it does help if you're not packing a fighting type.
    Korrina: Resists most of Korrinas attacks and should do well.
    Ramos: Does well here with Poison moves.
    Clemont: If you have a Nidoking, enjoy digging away. If you have Nidorino still, enjoy digging away.
    Valerie: Wrecks. Use a ground move for Mawile.
    Olympia: She hurts him.
    Wulfric: You should be able to take one ice hit, but this gym might give you trouble.
    Malva (Fire): Destroys.
    Wikstrom (Steel): Destroys.
    Drasna (Dragon): Ice beam ALL THE THINGS!
    Siebold (Water): Might be able to do something with Thunderbolt, but they can all hurt him pretty badly.
    Diantha: Has the potential to beat Hawlucha and Gourgiest but the others have coverage moves which Nidoking doesnt like.
    Additional Comments: Nidoking is better than ever. He can meet whichever role you need him, and he is bulky with a great typing and extremely varied movepool.
  24. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    Ugh fuck I got so busy & kinda forgot ugh ugh ugh... ×.×

    Yeah I am kinda going to stick to what I argued with (though still keeping things open) because while it is true something rarer will appear less often on average, there is also the possibility of getting said mon first encounter yadda yadda yadda. Also with Old Amber there is a noticeable inconsistency between those who attempted to get it in their runs that well rarity is not exactly a concern (some say that they got 1-2 along the way without trying, others have gotten the other end of the spectrum).

    Anyhow I am going to propose a few Pokémon for instant tiering just because ugh I slacked off ugh... -.-'

    Alomomola: N/A -> E-Tier
    Corphish: N/A -> D-Tier
    Durant: N/A -> D-Tier
    Geodude (w/o Trade, or simply, Graveler): N/A -> E-Tier
    Golett: N/A -> D-Tier
    Klefki: N/A -> D-Tier
    Minun: N/A -> E-Tier
    Nincada: N/A -> D-Tier
    Nosepass: N/A -> E-Tier
    Onix (w/o Trade): N/A -> F-Tier
    Pachirisu: N/A -> E-Tier
    Plusle: N/A -> E-Tier
    Rotom (Should we count appliances separately?): N/A -> D-Tier
    Scyther (w/o Trade): N/A -> E-Tier
    Zweilous: N/A -> E-Tier

    I can expand on anything if needed to but basically ugh I slacked off sorry ugh ugh... ×_×
    Karxrida likes this.
  25. Millky95

    Millky95

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    We should only if one or two appliances really stand out compared to the other forms

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