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Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tiers

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Fireburn, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
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    Introduction

    The best Pokemon is one
    that is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and loses only loses only 1 HP when damaged. It also learns every HM, heals itself automatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best.

    The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run-through of the game. Those will be put in
    the High tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in the Low tier. Pokemon that are neither efficient nor inefficient—for example, Pokemon who have an initial downside but can eventually perform as well as High-tiered ones—are put in the Middle tier.

    Pokemon are graded based on five factors: availability, raw stats, movepool, typing, and match-ups against major in-game opponents. Availability is a measure of how easy it is to obtain the Pokemon, and it ranges from very low (gift Pokemon) to very high (common "tall-grass" Pokemon). It also takes into account the part of the game at which you are able to get the Pokemon. For example, a Pokemon could be extremely good, but he would be worthless if you get him after every major battle. Raw stats affect the Pokemon's ability to KO others and to take hits in-game. Obviously, you want Pokemon with great stats, since that means they can easily KO many other Pokemon without fainting, or at least taking repeated trips to a Pokemon Center.

    A Pokemon's movepool is the variety of attacks the Pokemon learns. Does he need a lot of TMs to have a good moveset? Can he learn a lot of HMs to help you navigate in the overworld? Does he learn powerful attacks of his own type? Although TMs are reusable in Black and White, having good TM compatibility and level-up moves are still of great importance.

    Typing and match-ups go hand in hand. The optimal typing gives a Pokemon both STAB on useful attack types and leaves it with little to no weaknesses. If a Pokemon has a dual typing, it should complement him both important to offensively and defensively. Typing also determines the major battles in which a Pokemon will be useful. (Major battles can range from Gym Leaders battles to Rival battles.) Therefore, it is use Pokemon with good type combinations that give them an advantage in most of the game's major battles.

    Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded while manipulating luck through resets; these aim for the absolute fastest on-screen time, but the real time spent on them is much greater. If you want to play through the game in a relatively low time frame, then you’re looking for an efficient run.

    A team is actually the most efficient (in terms of utility per team member) if it only consists of a single member. This tier list will assume a team size of around three or four Pokemon, however, as otherwise the list would be extremely centralized around starters and early-game Pokemon—everything else wouldn't be worth the effort.

    High Tier

    [​IMG]
    Archen

    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Available fairly early on, Archen has excellent offensive stats and a great movepool. Its evolution has insane Attack and Speed and will rip through most in-game opponents with STAB Acrobatics alone.

    [​IMG]
    Cobalion

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Though it comes late, Cobalion is at the high level of 42, which should be slightly above your team average by that point. Its typing is excellent defensively, leaving it with many resistances and only a few weaknesses. It is fast, fairly strong, and learns Swords Dance not too long after you get it, backed by reliable STAB attacks. It is capable of tearing through most of the late-game fights by itself.

    [​IMG]
    Darumaka

    Availability: Early-Mid
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Darumaka comes early, and with the ability Hustle, which makes its physical attacks obscenely powerful. Couple this with its evolution's huge Attack stat and and Sheer Force, which boosts the power of its most powerful STAB attacks Fire Punch and Flare Blitz, and you have a complete monster on your hands. It has enough Speed to outpace most of the game's enemies, decent bulk afforded by its great HP, and a good movepool.

    [​IMG]
    Drilbur

    Availability: Early
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Excellent Attack and good Speed combined with a useful typing, Drilbur gets most, if not all, of its good moves (including Swords Dance) by level-up, and its evolution gains a ton of resistances. It is very useful versus the late-game bosses.

    [​IMG]
    Joltik

    Availability: Late-Mid
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Although Joltik comes somewhat late, it grinds easily against the Gym that will soon follow. Great Speed, good Special Attack, a useful STAB combination, and Compoundeyes Thunder make it very helpful throughout the rest of the game.

    [​IMG]
    Lillipup

    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Lillipup comes very early and is extremely good early game with good Attack and early access to STAB Take Down. It also learns Crunch and elemental Fangs for coverage, has fast evolutions, and is fairly bulky. Although it loses a bit of its luster near the end, it remains a very useful Pokemon throughout the entire game.

    [​IMG]
    Oshawott

    Availability: Starter
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Probably the best of the few obtainable Water-types, Oshawott has a great movepool, good stats, and does well against most of the Gyms. It is also a Starter Pokemon, so you do not have to worry about trying to catch it.

    [​IMG]
    Petilil

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Although its coverage sucks, that doesn't matter for this Pokemon. Good Special Attack and decent Speed stats combined with Sleep Powder AND Quiver Dance make this thing a monster that can sweep through most opponents with great ease. It should be noted that there is a Petilil with good IVs and an excellent nature that can be obtained through
    an easy trade in Nacrene City fairly early on. (You will need to cough up a Cottonee.)

    [​IMG]
    Sandile

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: It comes fairly early and possesses a useful STAB combination with just enough Attack and Speed to back it up. Perhaps its most useful trait is the ability Moxie—with it, Sandile's attack will be raised every time it KOes something, which makes it a deadly threat that can solo most trainers, particularly ones with fuller rosters such as the Elite Four.

    [​IMG]
    Sawk

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It comes early on and stays useful throughout the entire game. Fighting is an excellent STAB to have in Black and White and Sawk has great Attack and good enough Speed to abuse it. It also gets the ability Sturdy, which stops all OHKOes, and decent TM compatibility. Getting one of these is nearly guaranteed victory against the second Gym. However, Sawk is hard to find in White due to being a shaking grass only Pokemon.

    [​IMG]
    Scraggy

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Excellent typing leaves it with a sick STAB combination that will destroy most opponents. It is bulky, has decent Attack, and an excellent movepool, including some very high power STAB attacks such as Hi Jump Kick. It beats three out of the four Eilte Four members by virtue of its typing alone.

    [​IMG]
    Sigilyph

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Sigilyph starts off strong and stays strong until the very end. It has a great movepool and is fast and powerful, with a surprisingly useful typing for countering the litany of Fighting-types in Black and White. It is also one of the few usable Pokemon that can also learn the useful HM Fly.

    [​IMG]
    Tepig

    Availability: Starter
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Fairly bulky and very strong
    , Tepig has a good combination of STABs and great TM compatibility, and is useful against most of the Gyms. It is available as a starter.

    [​IMG]
    Timburr (with Trade Evolution)

    Availability: Early
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Its level-up movepool is excellent and it has a very meaty Attack stat. Although it is slow, it has the bulk to survive most attacks. Fighting-types are generally very useful in Black and White, anyway.

    [​IMG]
    Timburr (no Trade Evolution)

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Gurdurr is still very bulky with Eviolite and still has a decent 105 base Attack stat to work with.

    [​IMG]
    Throh

    Availability: Early
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It is bulky enough to take almost any attack
    , and has both decent Attack and a good movepool. It is a very reliable tank that is useful throughout the entire game. However, Throh is hard to find in Black due to it being a shaking grass only Pokemon.

    [​IMG]
    Tympole

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Available early on, it has a good movepool, decent stats, and excellent Water / Ground typing after evolution, leaving it with only one weakness.
    Tympole is probably the best Water-type aside from Oshawott.

    Mid Tier


    [​IMG]
    Axew

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It has excellent stats, great typing, and learns both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance to make it capable of sweeping entire teams. Unfortunately, it comes late and has late evolutions, so it will need some babying.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Basculin

    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It stats are only average and it comes only about mid-game, but it learns a lot of powerful attacks. It is also available in a trade in Driftveil City with an ideal nature. (You'll need a Minccino.)

    [​IMG]
    Blitzle

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Blitzle has very high Speed and has decent coverage, but it is very frail and only has modest offenses. While useful early game, it really loses its touch late game.

    [​IMG]
    Cottonee

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Although Cottonee is a good annoyer with Prankster and a variety of status moves, it has poor type coverage, mediocre power, and no real way to sweep.

    [​IMG]
    Deerling

    Availability: Late-Mid
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: It has a good movepool and decent stats, but it comes late and is a bit frail.

    [​IMG]
    Druddigon

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments:
    Though powerful and possessing a wide movepool, Druddigon comes late and has a very low Speed stat.

    [​IMG]
    Ducklett

    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Ducklett is a useful HM mule and has decent stats and a good type combination, but HMs aren't as important in Black and White, and it's rather mediocre until it evolves. It also only comes around mid-game.

    [​IMG]
    Durant

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Durant is fast and very powerful with Hustle, but it comes very late, will require some grinding, and isn't terribly bulky.

    [​IMG]
    Dwebble

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Its extremely slow and burdened by many weaknesses, but it has a solid STAB combo, a great ability in Sturdy, and a useful sweeping tool in Shell Smash later on in the game.

    [​IMG]
    Ferroseed

    Availability: Late-Mid
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Ferroseed has great defenses, but comes somewhat late and it is extremely slow.

    [​IMG]
    Gothita

    Availability: Early-Mid
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Gothita comes fairly early, but it is rather slow, has only modest power, and is outdone in most ways by Sigilyph.

    [​IMG]
    Klink

    Availability: Late-Mid
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Gear Grind and Shift Gear are amazing moves, but
    Klink has late evolutions and comes somewhat late. It also lacks good physical moves to abuse Shift Gear aside from Gear Grind and Return.

    [​IMG]
    Litwick

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Litwick is very strong and grinds easily against the seventh Gym, but it has late evolutions and also comes somewhat late.

    [​IMG]
    Mienfoo

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Though it comes late and likely won't evolve until you are at the Elite Four's doorstep, Mienfoo has great Speed and offenses.

    [​IMG]
    Mincinno

    Availability: Early-Mid
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments:
    Though very fast, it is very frail, and its Attack is only modest.

    [​IMG]
    Panpour

    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments:
    Panpour is useful to beat the first Gym and learns a lot of moves, but its stats leave something to be desired.

    [​IMG]
    Pansage

    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Same as Panpour, pretty much.

    [​IMG]
    Patrat

    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Good early game
    , with a fast evolution and good moves such as Hypnosis and Crunch, but its stats are mediocre and its usefulness will fade quickly.

    [​IMG]
    Roggenrola (with trade evolution)

    Availability: Early
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Roggenrola is very strong and comes early, but it is incredibly slow and has quite a few weaknesses.

    [​IMG]
    Sewaddle

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Sewaddle comes early, learns pretty powerful moves, and has decent stats, but it has a bad type combination, and needing a friendship evolution is annoying.

    [​IMG]
    Snivy

    Availability: Starter
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Snivy comes very early because it's a starter. Though very fast and decently bulky, it has poor type coverage and mediocre offenses. However, it is saved somewhat lategame by Coil, which makes it pretty amazing against some of the last fights.

    [​IMG]
    Solosis

    Availability: Early-Mid
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments:
    Solosis comes fairly early. It is extremely powerful but very, very slow.

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Terrakion comes extremely late and needs grinding, but it is fast and incredibly potent with high Attack and an excellent combination of STABs that make it very useful against the final fights.

    [​IMG]
    Tirtouga

    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It is very slow and is riddled with weaknesses, but it comes fairly early at a good level and it pretty powerful offensively.
    Tirtouga makes a good HM mule and is a dangerous sweeping threat with Shell Smash.

    [​IMG]
    Vanillite

    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Vanillite comes mid-game and has very good Special Attack, but it has a lot of weaknesses and poor type coverage.

    [​IMG]
    Venipede

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: A bit weak until its final evolution,
    Venipede doesn't have very good defenses, but Scolipede, its evolution, is fast and can hit very hard with STAB Megahorn.

    [​IMG]
    Virizion

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Virizion comes late, but has great stats and a useful typing, although it is not overly useful against the final battles.

    Low Tier

    [​IMG]
    Alomomola

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Alomomola has bad stats aside from HP and comes pretty late.

    [​IMG]
    Audino

    Availability: Kill it
    Stats: Kill it
    Movepool: Kill it
    Additional Comments: Why bother to catch one of these when you can kill one for mountains of experience points? Honestly?

    [​IMG]
    Bouffalant

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments:
    Though having a very slick design and being pretty strong, it is horribly slow, comes late, and isn't useful against the final fights.

    [​IMG]
    Cryogonal

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It is excruciatingly hard to find
    , has poor defenses, and has a mediocre movepool.

    [​IMG]
    Cubchoo

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Cubchoo is slow, comes late, and possesses poor typing.

    [​IMG]
    Deino

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Very Wide
    Additional Comments: Incredibly late evolutions ruin its usefulness, not to mention it comes late
    already.

    [​IMG]
    Elgyem

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Elgyem comes somewhat late. It gets some good moves such as Calm Mind, but it is frail and is extremely slow.

    [​IMG]
    Emolga

    Availability: Early-Mid
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Despite coming mid-game availability and its good Speed, Emolga's other stats are mediocre.

    [​IMG]
    Foongus

    Availability: Late-Mid
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Foongus has poor offenses and is very slow.

    [​IMG]
    Frillish

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It has a useful typing and good stats, but it comes too late to be of much use.

    [​IMG]
    Golett

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Golett comes late and is very slow. It needs a lot of babying before it evolves and isn't overly useful against the last fights.

    [​IMG]
    Heatmor

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It has mediocre stats and comes late.

    [​IMG]
    Karrablast

    Availability: Late-Mid
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Karrablast comes a bit late and is too bothersome to evolve. Its evolution is also very slow and has bad coverage.

    [​IMG]
    Larvesta

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: You get it late from an Egg. This means it is going to be at Level 1. How useful do you think that is going to be?

    [​IMG]
    Maractus

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Maractus comes early, but has mediocre stats and a terrible movepool.

    [​IMG]
    Munna

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It has a very sparse movepool and horribly slow. Not very useful against most of the Gyms.

    [​IMG]
    Pansear

    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Mediocre stats and weak STAB moves make for a pretty bad Pokemon.

    [​IMG]
    Pawniard

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments:
    Pawniard evolves very late and also comes late. Most of its attacks aren't overly potent, either.

    [​IMG]
    Pidove

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It has mediocre stats, a poor movepool, and isn't really helpful anywhere.

    [​IMG]
    Purrloin

    Availability: Why
    Stats: Does
    Movepool: This Exist
    Additional Comments: It can't take a hit at all and has a poor movepool with only modest offenses.

    [​IMG]
    Roggenrola (no trade evolution)

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its stats just won't cut it late game.

    [​IMG]
    Rufflet

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It comes late and evolves too late to be of use.

    [​IMG]
    Shelmet

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It comes late and is too bothersome to evolve.

    [​IMG]
    Stunfisk

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It has average stats, is very slow, is not useful in any of the major fights, and looks like a...I don't even want to describe it.

    [​IMG]
    Thundurus

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: It is a roamer and comes late, which makes it a huge pain to catch. Although a good Pokemon,
    Thundurus comes too late to be of real use.

    [​IMG]
    Tornadus

    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Same issues as Thundurus.

    [​IMG]
    Trubbish

    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It has poor stats and coverage. This thing has no use against any of the gyms or Elite Four. It is literally a piece of trash.

    [​IMG]
    Tynamo

    Availability: Late-Mid
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments:
    Tynamo is very hard to find, comes late, and is stuck with a very poor movepool and stats for most of the game.

    [​IMG]
    Vullaby

    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Vullaby has literally no offensive presence and comes too late to be of use.

    [​IMG]
    Woobat

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It is completely outclassed by Sigilyph in every way except Speed. That includes cuteness.

    [​IMG]
    Yamask

    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments:
    Yamask comes fairly early, but its incredibly slow and has poor type coverage. It also isn't overwhelming powerful, which is the final nail in the coffin.

    Neutral Tier - The Pokemon in this tier are here because revealing more about them would spoil the story of the game.

    [​IMG]
    Reshiram

    [​IMG]
    Zekrom

    Not Tiered - The Pokemon in this tier are those that can't be obtained in-game without using a special outside event.


    [​IMG]
    Victini

    [​IMG]
    Zorua

    [​IMG]
    Zoroark

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem

    [​IMG]
    Landorus

    [​IMG]
    Keldeo

    [​IMG]
    Meloetta

    [​IMG]
    Genesect
  2. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    This looks really good, I'll be sure to check back here when I'm looking to do an efficient run.
  3. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

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    can you add in some pictures? Otherwise, it's like a wall of text.

    Thundurus and Tornadus are the only ones I hugely object with. Tornadus has the fantastic Acrobat (which, coming off of 115 Attack, is not bad in any respect) while Thundurus has Discharge, which is not bad either. Both deserve mid tier at least (hell, terrakion is in mid, no?).

    You also may want to include different rankings for trades. Roggenrola with trade is far superior to roggenrola without.

    Otherwise, I skimmed over it and it seems good.
  4. fudgy

    fudgy

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    No Venipede in here for some reason
  5. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Added Venipede.

    Tornadus and Thundurus are roaming legends (I.E. a pain in the butt to catch), come after you've beaten pretty much everything, and aren't really too useful or special against anyone in the Elite Four. If you are in serious need of a good Flying-type, Archeops comes earlier and has much higher Attack. Terrakion is in mid since its actually useful (owns Grimsley, most of N's team, and most of Ghetsis's team) and it comes with a solid level-up set.

    I've actually used both genies. Tornadus was disappointing even against Marshal as most of his team carries Rock moves, but Thundurus was kinda useful against Ghetsis, so I may bump him up...

    Good call on the trade matter though, I'll add that as soon as I get the chance.
  6. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
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    Missing Dwebble and Purrloin as well. Purrloin is definitely low tier, but dwebble I could see in mid tier, since it comes early at desert resort, with some decent STAB attacks (Smack Down and immediately learns bug bite in a few levels), crustle itself is pretty good with shell smash and sturdy lets it survive to make use of the boosts, and Bug stab helps against Grimsley and Caitlin.
  7. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    I don't know what you're talking about.

    ;)
  8. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    By the way, much of the Introduction was originally written by Mekkah, so I want to make sure he is credited. Sorry for not mentioning this earlier.

    Any more comments?
  9. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    In my opinion, you should mention the fact that Sigilyph is basically one of the only viable users of Fly that isn't so bad its restricted to being an HM slave.

    But the actual guide should be structured like this: http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/dpp_plat_ingametiers, sans the images for now (please don't put images in, seriously, it just adds extra work or you and the htmler). This isn't really debatable seeing as how thats how the ones on site are structured.

    Also, good lord, your current formatting is an eyesore with all the spacing fail
  10. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Nitpick: Kyurem and Landorus don't need a special outside event to get them, they are just unavailable pre-E4.
  11. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Will do. I was planning on switching the format anyway, but I just wanted to go ahead and post it now.

    Also the spacing fail is because I originally had sprites, but the spaces were messed up when I got rid of them.

    Kyurem and Landorus aren't tiered because they're only available post-game.
  12. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Also, note that you CAN technically get a legit Zorua off the GTS fairly early, but GTS somewhat defeats the point.

    Additionally, I would propose to split Sawk and Throh on version (i.e. have a "Sawk (White)" entry and a "Sawk (Black) entry"), and add a Top Tier (for the TRULY outstanding mons like Archen) and a bottom tier (for things like Deino, who is lucky to reach the Zweilous stage before it finishes the main story). The RSE tier list did something similar, and the fact Sawk becomes a total pain in the rear to catch in White SHOULD affect its tiering in that game.

    Finally, I would mention that Sigilyph is somewhat rare, particularly if you want Magic Guard, and to point out that CompoundEyes Thunder on Galvantula is certainly no joke.

    Also note that Litwick can technically be a Chandelure during the Ice Gym (meaning that it actually can reach its final stage mid-game), provided it gets the Mistralton Cave Dusk Stone. It isn't exactly missing anything from its Lampent stage-Shadow Ball comes ASAP after the 7th gym (where it will be abusing Fire Blasts anyway) and it gets no other notable levelup moves as a Lampent-and has everything to gain.
  13. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    I don't want to separate Sawk and Throh as both are still equally useful in either game, despite being harder to get.

    There aren't enough mons IMO to necessitate a Top or Bottom tier either.

    Mentioned Compoundeyes Thunder for Joltik.

    Also this should be in the proper formatting now.
  14. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Pokemon are graded based on five factors: availability, raw stats, movepool, typing, and matchups against major in-game battles. Availability is a measure of how easy it is to obtain the Pokemon, and it ranges from very low (gift Pokemon) to very high (common “tall grass” Pokemon). It also takes into account the part of the game at which you are able to get the Pokemon. For example, a Pokemon could be extremely good, but he is worthless if you get him after every major battle. Raw stats affect the Pokemon's ability to KO others and to take hits in-game. Obviously, you want Pokemon with great stats, since that means they can easily KO many other Pokemon without fainting.

    A low percentage shaking grass Pokemon isn't exactly "highly available," whether it's early game or not. At the very least put White Sawk and Black Throh in mid-tier, as while they're just as badass if you can get them, they're a MUCH bigger pain in the ass to catch-i.e. they're highly inefficient to capture in those games, especially when you can simply use their normally available counterpart.

    Also, a story-neutral way to tier Reshiram and Zekrom:

    Reshiram
    (Black)

    Availability: Endgame
    Stats: Amazing
    Movepool: Shallow*
    Additional Comments: While incredibly strong, Reshiram has the unfortunate quality of being obtained only a few battles from the end of the main story. While he can certainly pull his weight in those battles, he isn't capable of outright sweeping them.

    Zekrom (White)

    Availability: Endgame
    Stats: Amazing
    Movepool: Shallow*
    Additional Comments: While incredibly strong, Zekrom has the unfortunate quality of being obtained only a few battles from the end of the main story. While he can certainly pull his weight in those battles, he isn't capable of outright sweeping them.

    *Due to how the final battles of the game work, Reshiram and Zekrom are normally limited to the four moves you obtain them with until after the main story. In order to give them access to their wider movepools before the credits roll, you have to intentionally lose one of the last few major battles of the game. This is generally not worth it.

    Also, why is Tynamo late while Joltik is late-mid? They're both available in the exact same cave, one's just way harder to find and sucks more.
  15. Uniqueness

    Uniqueness

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    Getting shaking grass pokemon isn't difficult at all as you can just keep on running by a patch of grass until shaking grass appears. True, its only 10% chance, but it still wouldn't take you much more then 10 minutes at the most to get a Sawk or Thro. same goes for any other shaking grass.
  16. spweasel

    spweasel

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    I assume this is based primarily on the DST thread, right? Keep in mind that there were several months worth of discussion since the last update to the OP and that several concensuses were reached since then by the posters (I'm not trying to make any "arguments", here, but these were things that seemed to be generally agreed with):

    Tympole and Panpour switch places (or at least Tympole goes down a tier) - Panpour is amazing for the mid game (evolve at 22), and has decent stats/coverage later on. Tympole's stats and movepool aren't nearly as good (and it's available later than the gift monkey), meaning its typing is all it really has going for it.

    Cobalion to Mid - Cobalion requires an otherwise unnecessary trip to Mistletron cave and is a pain in the butt to capture without blowing your Master Ball (which you might as well use on the roamer if you're capturing a legendary with it). He's very solid, but not High tier considering how hard he is to catch.

    Pidove to Mid - It has very strong Returns pretty early and the Super Luck + Scope Lens build makes it a little hax engine. Feather Dance combined with high (for in-game) speed gives it some use later on, especially against Marshal. It's not amazing, but it's certainly better than pretty much everything else in the low tier, especially due to how early it is available.
  17. TM13IceBeam

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    I lol'd at the Audino/Purrloin entries.

    Speaking of Cobalion, he's better than Virizion in the sole regard that:
    1. He's actually good against Brycen and doesn't risk a SE attack
    2. You need to catch him in order to even catch Virizion.

    I'd support for a bottom tier actually, where we can draw the line between how good Pokemon are. Joltik is probably 5x better than Tynamo, yet it's only one tier apart in a 3-tier system, which may confuse people. Bottom tier should IMO consist of Larvesta, Deino and Tynamo.)

    I don't see how Ducklett comes in Mid-game, and Deerling in late-mid. If I remember correctly, you have to beat Elesa to obtain access to Driftveil Drawbridge, but you don't need to beat Clay/Team Plasma to get to Route 6.
  18. Uniqueness

    Uniqueness

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    Shelmet and Karrablast, while not that great, are still no more difficult to evolve then other trade evolution pokemon. If your going to include an entry for Roggenrola with trade evouloution and without it, why not create one for them too?

    Also, one thing you don't really touch upon is how easy it it is to grind a pokemon depending on when and where you catch it. Look at Mienfoo, when you catch it its only in the low thirties, but the Ice gym is right there where you can get it to level 40 by the time you complete the gym ,OHKOing everything in there and gaining extra Exp. through the lucky egg.
  19. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    The fact is that even if you use untraded Shelmet/Karrablast they will end up at bottom tier due to their shit stats. Accelgor and Escavalier are already bottom, Accelgor due to overkill Speed and meh-ish offenses, while for Escavalier you could say that he's great due to nice bulk and existing in a game where Fire-types are non-existent(really, there's only 10 Fire types in total, Tepig's family, Litwick's family, Pansear/Simisear, Reshiram and lolHeatmor), but he's slow and stuck with Iron Head for most of the game.
  20. deuxhero

    deuxhero

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    Tynamo is at the bottom of the cave only though, and that means you can't use Plasma for XP.

    Evolution I'd say is also a factor. Joltik needs only 9 levels (a pitance with B/W's exp system), and doesn't need real babying to get them. Tynamo needs to be babied for a while after being caught to not be Magikarp. Additionally, EXP group for Tynamo is "erratic" while Joltik is "medium fast", giving Joltik a huge leg up until level 50, and the game is done by then.
  21. TM13IceBeam

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    Tynamo is available throughout the entire cave, it's the bottom part that has a higher encounter rate.

    Joltik > Tynamo for the other reason though.
  22. firecape

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    Grinding is insanely easy in B/W no matter where you are because of the Audino factor; it doesn't really matter if the next gym is easy for grinding, that patch of grass right there is most likely better.
  23. spweasel

    spweasel

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    Except that you need to do that next gym anyways, but Audino grinding puts your adventure on hold. Audino grinding is almost always a waste of time, since you get just as good (if not better) results from just lowing your team's size and not using Pokemon that need powerleveling. Heck, you can support a team of 5 or 6 pretty easily just by not avoiding trainer battles and exploring every area.

    Sorry for continuing an off-topic tangent, but people talking about "OMG Audino grinding lol" for normal gameplay is one of my pet peeves. It's fine for getting to level 100 or whatnot, but I can't think of any game that has accepted powerleveling as a legitimate strategy when creating a tier list.
  24. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Audino Grinding really doesn't take that long lol.

    Sawk and Throh are staying where they are, since they're not as hard to find as you think really.

    I don't see the need to do a bottom tier if only 3-4 mons are going to be in it to be honest. :/

    Pidove is completely outclassed by Archen who doesn't come THAT much later than it, and its not like having a Flying-type in B/W is extremely vital. (Also, by the time you get Return is about when you can get Archen as well, and without Return Pidove is weak.)

    Cobalion and Tympole are staying at high. Aside from Blizzard, they have comparable movepools, Tympole isn't available that much later and comes with Bubblebeam so that whole "no good Water STAB" thing isn't an issue, and Simipour's modest offenses and horrid bulk make it a less appealing option lategame whereas Tympole's evolutions can actually tank hits.
  25. spweasel

    spweasel

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    That's not the point lol. I won't bother making the same argument again, but you can find one of my previous posts on the subject here. I honestly don't care if people want to grind them for themselves, but it should have no bearing on Tiering or else we may as well put everything into High Tier.

    On my first Black run, it took me over half an hour to get a Sawk that was usable (Sturdy + nature that didn't reduce Attack or Speed). If you are trying to get an off-version one, you're much better off just waiting for Scraggy, who's just as good for most of the game and much better for the Elite 4 and beyond.

    I don't think they really need split entries, but they are hardly easy to get.

    Pidove doesn't require you to backtrack to get it, has a forgivable (if not especially good) Air Cutter early on, and most importantly doesn't preclude you from getting Tirtouga if you'd rather have it instead. It's not great, but just because it is "outclassed" doesn't mean that it needs to be Low Tier - there are plenty of outclassed Pokemon in Mid.

    It also can Fly as soon as you get the HM, making it more useful outside of battle than the flightless Archen (Archeops gets Fly, but there is likely going to be a period of time between getting the Fly HM and evolving it).

    No, they don't. Not even close. Have you looked at Palpitoad's TM list? It's terrible. It doesn't even learn Dig. Simipour learns Acrobatics, Rock Slide, Dig, Brick Break, Shadow Claw, Grass Knot, Blizzard, and Bite as coverage options. Palpitoad learns none of those (it gains a few when it evolves, but certainly not all of them).

    The differences between their offensive stats are actually larger than the difference in their defensive ones. While Seismitoad certainly has a much better survivability, Simipour deals solid damage (since it has amazing coverage and decent offenses) and has a great speed for in-game, while Seismitoad's damage output is disappointing at best and is frequently outsped.

    Also, the late game is kinda a joke aside from Marshal and Ghetsis, while Panpour is strictly better (aside from typing) from levels 22 through 36 since the difference in SpA means that Simipour's Scald will outdamage Palpitoad's Muddy Water.

    There's also the fact that while Tympole is decent for most of the game, Panpour has a fairly long period of time where he is absolutely amazing compared to the rest of your team. And even though he isn't as amazing late game, that didn't stop Lillipup from being High Tier.

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