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Pokemon Conquest In-Game Tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by BattleStar, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    [​IMG]
    In-game Tiers Discussion​


    What are these "In-game tiers"?*

    If you are observant about the other threads here at Orange Islands you probably already heard this explanation or seen another thread about in-game tiers. In-game tiers categorize Pokemon in tiers based on their usefulness in the game. This provides the player to complete games the easiest way possible.Here are things to consider when thinking about the usefulness of a Pokemon.

    • Ability: How effective and useful is the ability.
    • Stats: How good are the stats.
    • Move: How viable is the sole move it possess?
    • Movement: How well are they able to be maneuvered?
    • Type: Their defensive capabilities.
    • Matchups: How well do they do against other Pokemon?

    What are the tiers?
    Glad you asked. In this discussion we will have four tiers. The more useful the Pokemon is the higher tier it is on, likewise the lower the usefulness of the Pokemon the lower the tier. Here are the tiers.

    • Top Tier
    • High Tier
    • Middle Tier
    • Low Tier

    Pokemon at the top tier are obviously the best.They are strong and/or easily found in the game. They offer you an advantage in the game.Useful abilities are should also be factored in.

    What Pokemon are available in Pokemon Conquest?
    Pokemon Conquest had a diverse pool of Pokemon available though only some are able to be seized in the main story line.

    Here is the list from serebii on all the obtainable Pokemon.

    Obtainable Pokemon
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  2. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    Reserved for tier listings

    Giving credit to the other In-game tier discussions for the idea and Stellar's spectacular formatting skills.
  3. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
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    Availability isn't that big of a deal in most circumstances. Special episodes places you in different areas of the region with different warlords and different Pokemon. You can easily get most Pokemon via warriors, linking or passwords. The exceptions to this are Swarm Pokemon and legendaries, which are based on luck and certain prerequisites, respectively. Not to mention Pokemon you recruit carry over and have their link reset. Availability should likely be ignored for simplicity's sake.

    Another thing that is incredibly important to think about when ranking a Pokemon is what abilities it can get. Intimidate is amazing and getting it makes any Pokemon instantly better.

    Also, for the sake of not becoming a mess, I think it would be best to avoid including warrior/warlord information when ranking Pokemon.
  4. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    How is this supposed to work, more specifically? Are we only talking about Perfect Link Pokemon, or just talking about the Pokemon in a vacuum? Also, are we only talking about the first story, or all subsequent ones, since different Pokemon are available earlier or later depending on where you are?

    Anyway:

    I haven't linked with any legendaries yet, so I can't exactly comment on them, but I imagine they probably deserve a tier of their own

    Staraptor has to be in the Top tier, really. Movement range of 4, Intimidate, Flying-type (so can circumnavigate any terrain, pretty much, as well as hit opponents from behind easily), 4* Attack, 4* Speed, 4* HP, not to mention a 5* attack in Brave Bird (which hits multiple targets, and the side-effect isn't *that* bad, though it is annoying). You can also get Muneshige very early on in the game (or even somebody else with a Starly), and Staraptor is pretty easy to evolve up, once you've got past the dud Starly stage.

    In fact, most Flying-types (and maybe Ghost-types as well, since they can move through opponents) should get pretty high up on the tier lists purely because they can move about more easily. To that end, Gyarados is easily the best Water-type, so should probably also come quite high up (but evolving it from Magikarp is annoying if you don't use passwords). Stuff with Levitate should also fall under this category.

    Rhyperior is terrible. Even though it's seriously strong, it only has a movement range of 2 and Rock Wrecker is as bad in this game as it is in the normal games. Also, it's far too easy to force it into a corner and make it useless - while it has good range in Rock Wrecker, it can't do anything close up. I'd rather use almost any other Rock-type, except that almost all other Rock-types also have a movement range of 2 (I'd probably still rather use Gigalith or Tyranitar though, in theory, haven't tested either yet). Of course, it is the only strong Rock-type that you get in the main storyline, so Mid tier might be reasonable, but outside of the main storyline, it's Low tier at best.

    In fact, I'd say anything with a movement range of 2 doesn't cut the mustard. Dragonite is Flying-type, has a seriously strong attack that is only resisted by one type, not to mention huge stats, but can't get anywhere quickly enough, so is probably Mid tier overall. Charizard is the same, unfortunately.

    What else um

    Empoleon is great, what with Hydro Pump and great Attack, especially if you are using Ina and her accuracy-boosting power. High tier, I'd say. Sceptile and Serperior are pretty bad, honestly - they're not really strong enough to take anything down in one hit and while they can attack twice in a row, they might as well not bother. Mid tier. Samurott is great but Gyarados is usually better (Samurott is easier to level up and better if you have Motochika, but Gyarados has that Flying-type, bigger Attack stat, and what not). Mid tier. Darmanitan has a big Attack stat, 5* Fire Blast, and Darumaka is actually useful for most of the game, so is probably the best Fire-type in the initial story (didn't try Emboar, so). Excadrill is pretty much the only usable Ground-type (as in, thing with a Ground-type move) in the first storyline, so probably merits high tier for that.

    Axew, Dratini, Deino, and Gible are all pretty good if you get them early on (thinking the ninja episodes here, not much good in the first story) as Dragon Rage will OHKO pretty much everything. Metagross is great - high Attack and everything, Steel-type, movement range of 3 for some reason, and Clear Body to block Intimidate, but if you don't have a password, then it requires a Swarm, so is nigh-on impossible to get, not to mention that Beldum and Metang are pretty lacklustre, and most early-game warriors won't be able to link past the mid-forties with it. Conkeldurr is very easy to get, through Yoshihiro, but Superpower can let you down with its power drops. I haven't tried Machamp yet. Beartic has a terrible movement range and Icicle Crash tends to miss at the worst possible times. Low tier.

    I'd say that all Swarm-only Pokemon should be listed as unranked since it's never really certain that you're going to get them. The only exceptions should probably be the Eevees - they all come fairly late in the game (and Eevee is pretty bad until it evolves) but they're all pretty good once you get them. Their attacks are all quite weak though, aside from Vaporeon's, and there are an abundance of good Water-types, so the only really notable one is Glaceon as there really aren't that many good Ice-types at all (Lapras is the notable exception but only comes in the special episodes)

    Carnivine is great early-game, thanks to Levitate and Vine Whip, but not so much after the first few. Mid tier. Scizor is awesome, but Metal Coat is nearly impossible to get and the only other way to get them is to level up your facilities in Valora to a stupidly high level (and even then, getting a Scyther is almost as hard). Mid tier for poor access. Galvantula's a pretty good Electric-type, and I prefer its Discharge attack to Luxray's and Ampharos's Thunder attacks for ease of use (also Compoundeyes), but Luxray does have that Intimidate, not to mention Sprint if preferred.

    Also an obligatory "Jigglypuff is terrible, don't use Jigglypuff"

    The following are what I consider pretty huge selling points on any Pokemon, imo:

    - Ability of Intimidate / Sprint / Vanguard / Conqueror / Life Force / Levitate / Pride / etc.

    - Flying-type or maybe Ghost-type

    - Movement range of 4

    That's all I can say for the moment
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  5. OVERGRO

    OVERGRO

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    In the very recent past I did try and start a discussion about this here in a social group, the idea for a thread didn't even cross my mind hahaha.

    Well I think that this tier list should only be focused on the main story line as most other in-game tier lists are. That is, defeating Nobanaga for the first time, no special episodes or post-main-story-content, again, staying true to the ingame tier spirit.

    That being said I do agree with all of the above that is true for the main game! Carnivine was amazing in the main storyline with Levitate and Vine Whip. Of course Eevee is top tier as well. I also used Gurdurr/Conkeldurr to great success. After you beat Terrera and Illusio you can find I believe the leader of Pugilis training in Ignis, where you can recruit him for a perfect link Conkeldurr. It's very strong and has some decent type advantages without many type weaknesses.
  6. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    I will be putting the abilities as something to consider. It actually is a really important point and sorry I looked over it.This will focus pretty much on the main story line. This will mainly just be talking about the Pokemon itself, however I think perfect link and warrior abilities can be mentioned to add to a Pokemon's case.
  7. moonbound

    moonbound

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    Gyarados and Darmanitan destroy everything with good range attacks with no negative side effect and have good availability. Glaceon is the clear eevee evolution choice as it destroys Dragnor as long as you're willing to wait to evolve.
  8. TheChortler

    TheChortler

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    While getting Volcarona and Garchomp are tedious, they are absolutely amazing (especially Volcarona). While Fiery Dance and Dragon Rush do virtually the same thing except with different accuracies, Fiery Dance is the move of choice since it provides a nifty chance for an attack boost (although the chance of a flinch that Dragon Rush provides can help in many scenarios as well). They definitely deserve to be high or top tier.
  9. Tenodera

    Tenodera

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    I got a ton of use out of Gyarados, Bisharp, and Gallade. Their attacks are powerful, satisfactorily ranged, and get useful neutral coverage, and the movement from Gyara's Flying typing is just so good.

    Staraptor is really outstanding. Vanguard + Brave Bird can OHKO three neutral enemies with ease. It also has phenomenal movement capabilities and is easy to evolve.

    I found anything with a single 3-space hitbox very obnoxious. Namely Rhyperior and Luxray.
  10. OVERGRO

    OVERGRO

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    I second that Staraptor is amazing.
    This is further solidified by the fact there is a warrior who perfect-links with Staraptor early on!!

    Also, Intimidate has a HUGE range. It's broken.

    Are Volcarona and Garchomp somewhat easily available in the main storyline? I haven't seen Gible, Gabite, or Larvesta before Dragnor, and by then the main story is almost done.
  11. TheChortler

    TheChortler

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    I believe that you can get Larvesta fairly early on, but I don't think there are many people who form a perfect link with it :P

    I actually have been using both of them in the side stories, but I didn't notice Gible's presence in the main storyline while I did recruit a couple of Larvesta holders.

    I'm going to begin experimenting with Zoroark since I finally got my hands on a Zorua, so I'll see how worthy it is.
  12. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    OK so this is just for the starting episode

    I get it now

    Also: The following is assuming no passwords, including that for the Motonari and Motochika event

    Top Tier

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / HP / Speed
    - Movement range of 4
    - 5* Brave Bird, hits multiple targets
    - Intimidate / Vanguard
    - Flying-type
    - Only matches up badly against Cragspur and Valora
    - Easy to obtain through Muneshige or a few people in Aurora
    - Starly is a disappointing start

    [​IMG]
    - Above average stats
    - 4* Aqua Tail, hits multiple targets
    - Intimidate
    - Flying-type
    - Only matches up badly against Dragnor
    - Fairly easy to obtain Magikarp in Fontaine
    - Magikarp will be extremely tedious to raise up, so a significant dud stage

    [​IMG]
    - Very high Atk
    - Decent other stats
    - 4* Superpower (with side-effect, however)
    - Can push other Pokemon, so useful in flag battles
    - Easy to obtain through Yoshihiro as Gurdurr
    - Very powerful in all evolutionary stages (no dud stage)
    - Comes a cropper against Chrysalia, Illusio, Avia, Viperia, and Spectra, but extremely powerful against the rest

    [​IMG]
    - Very high Atk
    - High HP / Speed
    - 5* Fire Blast with huge range
    - Easy to obtain in Ignis (through warriors)
    - Darumaka is very strong in its own right
    - Evolves fairly quickly
    - Only matches up badly against Fontaine, Cragspur, and Dragnor

    [​IMG]
    - Strongest early-game Grass-type
    - Levitate
    - Available almost immediately
    - Average all-around stats
    - 2* Vine Whip is disappointing
    - Much much weaker after the first half of the game

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / HP
    - Movement range of 4
    - 5* Hydro Pump
    - Presence of Gyarados and Empoleon makes it less attractive, but it is arguably the strongest single Eeveelution

    [​IMG]
    - Very high Speed
    - High Atk
    - Vanguard / Sprint
    - Movement range of 4
    - 4* Thunderbolt
    - Probably the best Electric-type in the game, but there's a lot of other decent options in this category

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / Def / Speed
    - Life Force
    - Instinct, if that appeals to you
    - Movement range of 4
    - 4* Leaf Blade
    - Best Grass-type by a fair way, but by the time you get Leafeon, Grass-types have all but lost their usefulness

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / Def
    - Movement range of 4
    - The only even vaguely decent Ice-type in the first episode, but comes extremely late. Demolishes Dragnor, though
    - Icy Wind is disappointingly weak

    High Tier

    [​IMG]
    - Average all-around stats
    - 5* Thunder (but a tad prone to missing)
    - Long-range but can't attack close-up targets
    - Rather easy to pin against a wall
    - Easy to obtain through Ginchiyo or basically anybody in Violight

    [​IMG]
    - High overall stats
    - 4* Psycho Cut (decent range)
    - Conqueror
    - Easy to obtain through Kenshin
    - Instant Gallade - no dud previous stage
    - Somewhat poor against Yaksha, Valora, and Spectra

    [​IMG]
    - Stronger and bulkier than Luxray
    - 5* Thunder
    - Relatively easy to obtain in Violight
    - A lot slower than Luxray (so Thunder misses quite a lot)
    - Mareep is terrible

    [​IMG]
    - High Speed
    - 5* Volt Tackle
    - Relatively easy to obtain in Violight
    - Very frail, especially after using Volt Tackle
    - Lowered movement range after attacking can leave it unable to hit an opponent right next to it
    - Pichu is terrible

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / HP / Def
    - 5* Hydro Pump with great range
    - Steel-type so resists everything
    - Only Water-type bar Vaporeon that seriously gives Gyarados competition
    - Easy to obtain in Fontaine
    - Pretty slow
    - Piplup is fairly terrible until it evolves, but Prinplup is decent

    [​IMG]
    - High Speed
    - 4* Discharge, hits multiple targets
    - Compoundeyes
    - Relatively easy to obtain in Violight
    - In all honesty probably my favourite Electric-type bar Jolteon
    - Frail as heck
    - Joltik is both weak offensively and frail as heck

    [​IMG]
    - Very high Atk / HP
    - High Speed
    - 4* Drill Run (requires run-up, however)
    - Pretty much the best Ground-type around
    - Steel-type so resists everything
    - 100% Zekrom counter, 100% Rayquaza bait
    - Evolves pretty late on and can't touch anything in Avia
    - Drilbur is pretty strong itself but I dislike 2-turn attacks and the fact that it dies to everything

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk
    - Movement range of 4
    - Fire Fang has low power output
    - Pretty outclassed by Darmanitan

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / Speed
    - Movement range of 4
    - Instinct, if that appeals to you
    - Psybeam has low power output
    - Gallade / Gardevoir / Alakazam are generally better

    [​IMG]
    - High HP / Def
    - Movement range of 4
    - Assurance has low power output (unless it is used to hit a Pokemon for a second time, in which case it is quite good)
    - Low Atk
    - Only really decent Dark-type available, but I'd rather use Krookodile in theory

    Mid Tier

    [​IMG]
    - Same stats as Gallade
    - 4* Psychic - same strength as Psycho Cut but with different range
    - Instinct, if that appeals to you
    - Relatively easy to obtain through Kanetsugu or a bunch of people in Illusio
    - Only Mid tier because, really, why use this when Gallade exists

    [​IMG]
    - Only early-game Ground-type attacker
    - High HP
    - Evolves fairly quickly
    - Slow as they come (so often misses)
    - Mud Bomb is disappointingly weak
    - Wooper is just disappointing in all respects

    [​IMG]
    - High Def
    - Easy to obtain through Yoshimoto
    - Slow, but not as slow as you'd like for Gyro Ball
    - High Link means higher Speed which means weaker Gyro Ball um
    - Well, Pineco is alright as a Bug-type.

    [​IMG]
    - Only early-game Ice-type attacker
    - Can obtain in Fontaine, or by capturing that warrior in Chrysalia
    - 5* Blizzard, hits multiple targets
    - Very high HP
    - Pathetic movement range
    - Blizzard always misses (very slow)

    [​IMG]
    - High HP / Speed (weirdly)
    - 4* Aqua Tail
    - Easy to get in Fontaine
    - Oshawatt is pretty bad, honestly
    - In all honesty, greatly inferior to Gyarados and Empoleon, but a good self-contained Pokemon

    [​IMG]
    - Very high HP
    - 5* Fire Blast with huge range
    - Can obtain in Ignis or through Yukimura
    - Pathetic movement range
    - Fire Blast always misses (very slow)

    [​IMG]
    - Same as Gardevoir, but higher offences to weaker defences
    - Life Force
    - Instinct, if that appeals to you
    - Abra is almost as bad as Magikarp

    [​IMG]
    - 5* Hi Jump Kick
    - Easy to obtain through Kunoichi or anybody in Pugilis
    - Very high Def
    - Shed Skin
    - Pretty average other stats
    - If HJK misses you're pretty stuffed (and Scrafty is very slow)
    - Generally inferior to Conkeldurr

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / Def
    - 4* X-Scissor - Can hit large number of targets
    - Steel-type so resists everything
    - Difficult to obtain - Link with it in Lv3 Sky Garden in Chrysalia
    - Honestly the difficulty of obtaining it is probably the biggest thing holding it back

    Low Tier

    [​IMG]
    - Decidedly average all-around stats
    - Why use this when Gallade / Gardevoir / Alakazam exist

    [​IMG]
    - Easy to obtain through Aya
    - Only mid-game Ice-type besides maybe Sealeo
    - High Atk / HP
    - 4* Icicle Crash (always misses, as it's pretty slow)
    - Pathetic movement range

    [​IMG]
    - Easy to get in Ignis
    - High Atk / Speed
    - 4* Flamethrower with long range
    - Pathetic movement range

    [​IMG]
    - Very high Speed
    - High Def
    - Requires Lv2 Ranch to obtain in Greenleaf
    - Leaf Storm is pretty bad
    - Damage output not enough to justify harsh Atk drops from Leaf Storm
    - Shame really

    [​IMG]
    - Very high Speed
    - Easy to obtain in Greenleaf
    - Leaf Storm is pretty bad
    - Damage output not enough to justify harsh Atk drops from Leaf Storm
    - Shame really

    [​IMG]
    - Very high Atk / HP
    - 5* Rock Wrecker (as bad in this game as it is in mainstream games)
    - Poor Speed, so misses all the time
    - Pathetic movement range
    - Can't hit anything close to it, very easy to back into a corner
    - Oh it is so indescribably awful aaa

    [​IMG]
    - Requires leveling up of Cragspur / Valora facilities to obtain
    - Very high Def
    - Rubbish Atk / Spe / HP
    - Rock Slide is decent I guess, but Bastiodon isn't hurting anything with it
    - Pathetic movement range


    [​IMG]
    - Slower but bulkier than Staraptor
    - High Atk / HP
    - Movement range of 4
    - Very high likelihood of not being able to evolve Rufflet with early-game warriors since a rather high link percentage is needed
    - If you wait until Avia, it comes far too late
    - Can't hurt Flying-types (at all)
    - Sky Drop is pretty weak
    - Eclipsed entirely by Staraptor
    - Honestly the only reason you would use it is Rufflet is pretty good if you can grab a warrior from Violight who uses it.

    [​IMG]
    - Decent Bug-type, I guess
    - Skips the whole weak-early-bug stage (no Weedle or Kakuna in this game, for some odd reason)
    - Twineedle is weak once you get further on in the game
    - Yeah it is pretty bad - only use if you have no other Bug-types at all

    [​IMG]
    - High Atk / Speed
    - Good overall stats
    - Vanguard
    - Difficult to obtain - Link with it in Lv3 Valley in Chrysalia
    - Fury Cutter. What the hell were they thinking? This one move single-handedly makes Scyther terrible. Oh well, at least there's Scizor.

    Dire Beyond Imagination Tier

    [​IMG]
    - This needs no explanation.

    ---------------------------------------------

    That's all for now.
    Aaron's Aron likes this.
  13. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    Chandelure is pretty good. Fire Spin is really good in this game, since it has 4 or 5 star power (depending on how much it hits) and hits EIGHT targets at the same time. Chandelure has good all around stats and a really high attack too. I've used it and I really kind of like it. The only bad things were it came in late, Litwick is meh, and the Dusk Stone can be tedious to get.
  14. TheChortler

    TheChortler

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    Articuno is top tier only if you have Mitsuhide's second form, otherwise it's only mid tier. Terrakion, Mewtwo, Groudon, and Registeel are also top tier, with or without the second form of their designated warriors. Dialga is only mid tier due to the recharge; even though Roar of Time is quite good, it isn't anything special.

    Obviously, these aren't in the beginning episode, but I thought they'd be worth throwing out there :P
  15. Layell

    Layell Alas poor Yorick, I knew him, Peter Gabriel too!
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    bugmaniacbob's summaries are a good start, but still include the name of the mon just to control f search.
  16. Garud

    Garud

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    I think bugmaniacbob's entries need to be a little more refined, I feel like they look a little random too. I had to scroll up to the template to see what the headings were for. In addition, I don't agree with Jigglypuff sucking that much considering it carries the team through the early game. Late-game it is passable as a tank and as a healer (because of the ability) so it's not all crap. Also, there are too many top-tiers, many of them are only mid-tier material, like Conkeldurr etc. Anyway, here's an entry for one of the best pokemon I've ever had to use in this game.



    [​IMG]

    Machamp (Top)

    • Ability: Guts is decent, but status doesn't happen often enough for Machamp to be utilizing this. Bodyguard makes Machamp a decent partner for frailer pokes like Alakazam, but it's not his best ability. Conqueror is where Machamp really shines as it allows Machamp to steamroll entire maps and take hits better, as he will be scoring multiple KOs at a time, making for easier kills and making it harder to kill him back.
    • Stats: Monster offense combined with the raw power chop making him strong offensively. Defensively he can take a hit, but won't like super effective ones.
    • Move: Cross Chop may appear to hit an odd area, but it's ability to hit multiple pokemon at once is amazing. Not as accurate as it would like, it averages around 80% which means 4/5 targets in the sights will be likely KO'd.
    • Movement: Machamp's movement is limited to 3 squares, and can neither swim nor fly. Still, he's not so slow that he never reaches the opponent, and Cross Chop's range still helps him hit the odd target at a distance.
    • Type: Fighting is weak to Psychic and Flying, and there are a few around, but not enough to truly worry him. Most Psychics are frail and most Flying types come with a secondary Normal typing, meaning they don't resist his attacks.
    • Matchups: Machamp is typed quite well overall, since there are a ton of Normal, Rock and Steel types present during the main story. In addition, since so many pokemon featured are neutral to fighting, Machamp can steam through quite easily. It's worth noting a decent Machamp can do massive damage to Zekrom at Draconis, and possibly take out some of it's allies with Cross Chop's range, while it is able to become bulkier over time with every KO. In the final story battle, the only thing Machamp fears is Mismagius, but it hits multiple pokemon (Lapras, Aggron, Lucario) supereffectively and all at once. He can even nab 3 boosts to his defense and attack and take on Rayquaza by himself.
    • Additional Comments: While he is not essential to the main story, and none of the story-based warlords have 100% link with Machamp, he is still a force to be reckoned with. He is also arguable superior to Conkeldurr, who has similar stats but a worse ability and a very poor frontal attack. In fact, he is arguably the best fighting-type in the game.
  17. This is a crazy, crazy world when Carnivine is all of a sudden not only relevant but actually good. I picked it up pretty early on (a) because of how awesome Levitate is in this game for getting around the terrain and (b) because it may be the earliest available Pokemon that has an area attack, but I expected to get rid of it pretty soon because "lol, Carnivine". Nope, it actually managed to stay useful for an unreasonably long period.
  18. Garud

    Garud

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    But it does lose its momentum towards the end though, which is a shame. I would say it's a high-tier, so close to top-tier. But this game does make you use pokemon you wouldn't have used otherwise.
  19. PrimeMinister

    PrimeMinister

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    Yeah, I was shocked at how good carnivine was. I also thought vaporeon was excellent, with great range, attack and huge HP. Also, hydro pump (imo) has decent range, being able to hit enemies that are carelessly lined up. Agreeing with bugmaniacbob's judgement.

    Although I was unable to get it untill mitsuhide's special episode (which was awesome if you haven't tried it yet), Lapras was fantastic, with monster HP and attack. I remember going against an army of 6 with just Lapras and cubchoo, and destroyed.

    I know you use it briefly in the main story, but arceus is painfully good. It believe it has 3 abilities, one of which lets judgement always hit for normal damage.
  20. Kikuichimonji

    Kikuichimonji

    Joined:
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    Machamp is great, that thing carried my team through the second half of the game even though mine had Bodyguard. Fighting is just a great type in general, both offensively and defensively, and Machamp's better-than-average stats coupled with the massive AOE you get with Cross Chop make it incredibly useful late game. There are several warriors that perfect link it and I believe at least one of them is available around the time you take Puglist.

    The Munna/Musharna line is probably the worst thing in the entire game.
  21. BeastMode2010

    BeastMode2010

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
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    I HATE fighting against Munna. It's so f*cking annoying. But yes, it is probably the worst in the entire game.

    If we aren't going with how difficult it is to obtain the 'mon, because you can eventually just find it, I really think Scizor needs to be in the High tier. He hits just so freaking hard, and has great mobility. If it's the "Metal Coat is a pain to get", doing the main story line and getting perfect link with Eeveelution, I got the wandering salesman twice, and by the second time it came around I was able to buy almost 2 of every evolution item he had.
  22. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

    Joined:
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    usually obtainability is one of the defining factors of an in game tier list as opposed to a competitive one. it definitely matters here. also, i'm pretty sure we're only looking at the main storyline, not postgame. not far enough to have reached scizor (see below) so i have no first hand experience as to difficulty of finding it, but it doesn't sound easy

    and as for jiggly,
    i don't think warrior abilities should be taken into account for a pokemon. oichi might have a very useful ability but that doesn't change the fact that jigglypuff is pretty weak. i use it anyway - look at its expression, it's so fierce! - but it's on the slow side and has relatively little to offer besides a lot of health.

    as for mons i liked, i only made a bit of progress before my computer decided to crap out on me. got a new comp - today actually, woo! - so i should be picking up again soon. in the meantime i will say that carnivine is truly awesome in the early game. levitate really cranks its utility up to the limit, but with that weak 2* attack i'm pretty sure it's gonna peter out. darumaka is also a great mon, hits very hard (mine is run up and you have to take a step back to use flame wheel, so i get a boost nearly every time), and darmanitan looks like it's going to be a solid upgrade. most of my other mons feel average and haven't really impressed me; some are downright weak. sewaddle is probably the weakest member of my entire lineup, but that's not saying much really. eevee is useful but mainly because of that great speed, which is coming from warrior ability (mine is celebrate, not sprint). charmander is not bad (recently evolved to charmeleon so it has a slight edge), but it's not good either, and darumaka tends to hit a lot harder in my team - my darumaka can keep up with charmeleon in damage output, easily. really i'm just waiting to see if the evolutions can impress me; nfes can only accomplish so much >_>

    question, btw, for those who've made heavy use of conkeldurr: does that drop from superpower notably affect prolonged battles? machamp looks like very compelling competition and it doesn't have that problem.
  23. Garud

    Garud

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
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    It does in fact have that problem as some pokemon who would take 2 attacks from it can survive the second because of the drops. Since Conkeldurr has less survivability it doesn't last very long in the prolonged battles. In fact, Conkeldurr should only be mid-tier in my opinion, since most of the important battles have 6 pokemon to beat, Conkeldurr can barely beat 1, and even then he has to take them one at a time. His ability is terrible too, so no benefit there.

    To sum up his poor standing in this game, it's best to consider this: You have to attack to win battles (you can't win through stall or entry hazards etc). Therefore a pokemon that gets weaker after every attack (easier to kill and harder to kill things) must have a serious upside to redeem it, something Conkeldurr just doesn't have. His raw stats mean he isn't terrible though, just so outclassed by Machamp.
  24. BeastMode2010

    BeastMode2010

    Joined:
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    I think only considering main storyline is a bad idea, as you don't have access to a lot of mons. I'm not 100% on this, but I've noticed, that depending on what your upgrade level on structures is, lures different mon to the location. So instead of being able to find a Munchlax or even a Simi- is incredibly, if not impossible task, during the main storyline. At least I've personally never seen them during the MSL, but I also only put about 14 hours into the MSL.
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
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    Interesting discussion. I feel that I disagree with some of bugmaniacbob's judgments, though.

    You shouldn't forget its accuracy issues and the very late final evolution. Gurdurr is never completely reliable with the hit rates it gets.

    Leafeon requires Eevee to have a defence stat of 94. Glaceon demands an attack of 91 and Nixtorm conquered. By postponing Eevee's evolution (i.e. not choosing to one of the three stones given to you or giving your protagonist an entirely different Pokemon), you are making him deadweight for a substantial portion of the game, therefore neither Glaceon nor Leafeon make an efficient choice. Pokemon like Magikarp or Abra can skip their period of having no combat to offer by being caught/recruited when they can evolve immediately; you have only one Eevee (whom you can't even delegate to train on auto-pilot), therefore no option to circumvent the period of very poor combat mid-to-endgame.

    Pichu evolves into Pikachu at Link 50. Granted, you can always skip its capturing until endgame, but that means no meaningful contribution throughout the game.

    These two demand Eevee's Link to be 70 to evolve. Try to remember how high your Link was when you beat the game. You're simply not ever seeing either of these two, period. You also mention Espeon being inferior to Pokemon whom you have a tier below (which he indeed is as he simply doesn't exist in an efficient maingame run; just pointing to the lack of consistence).

    Just wanted to say that the Abra you get if you conquer Illusio has a high enough attack stat to evolve upon the first errand you send it to.

    The mention of investing money in a bank is kinda irrelevant when we're talking about the maingame/tutorial, wouldn't you agree? However, you might have missed the Scyther trainer which starts appear in random places after you're in command of Terrera/Illusio. You can also skip some months (why not; nobody's attacking in this storyline) and get the Metal Coat to evolve it straight away.

    You put Carnivine into the highest tier for early game contributions, so why are the early contributions of Charmander and Rufflet disregarded when opting a tier position for them? Rufflet in particular exceeds Staravia (an evolved form of Starly who is simply terrible compared to Rufflet) in offensive potential, in spite of lacking Intimidate and having a bad (you're spot-on there) evolution. I'd say Rufflet is even better than Carnivine (better attack and move).

    It OHKOs things without even hitting super-effectively and is given to you absolutely free with Shingen. You needn't spend time training it. It's not even that slow during midgame because you're dealing with mostly unevolved Pokemon (they're there even in Nobunaga's army). Rhyperior can reliably grab at least one kill per map without slowing the party down, how much more do you want? If your party of six scores one kill each, you can be sure you're playing well and everybody is doing something. There are also maps where you can get somebody in Rhyperior's range by waiting just during the first turn (you're definitely not winning by the second anyway), and maps where waiting is tactically beneficial, like in Nixtorm where you make it so much easier for yourself by letting the opposition come to you instead of travelling to the other part of the map yourself. Rhyperior waits with the rest and then uses Rock Wrecker. Yeah, the range of 2 is a shame, but this thing is perfectly usable and you needn't train or even catch anything to get it.



    Should this be counted as an alternative to Scizor? Because Scyther is clearly inferior to its evolved form in this game, and there are a lot of other Pokemon who indeed do get worse upon evolution, perhaps making it more logical to cover their unevolved forms separately (Pineco and Luxio being notable examples of this).

    If you insist that Rhyperior sees no combat with its move, then surely the map should be over after one or two Leaf Storms with such play speed. And once again, evolving areas is out of the question in the maingame so I don't think you can get a Snivy in the first story at all without Wi-Fi.

    Great job on this overall, very thorough when outlining pros and cons, though I feel it is somewhat inconsistent at times (e.g. you talk about some Pokemon having the wrong typing for certain castles but avoid the subject in other cases, for example not mentioning how Darumaka is useless in the Fontaine and how he fails to attack anything in Violight with the enemies conveniently standing on electrical tiles, or how Magikarp isn't a drawback to Gyarados but Abra is one for its evolved forms even though it's given to your automatically in the storyline since it never attacks and you can't go wrong with its recruitment).

    I also find it kinda dubious that it's okay waiting forever to evolve Eevee into something that isn't Flareon/Vaporeon/Jolteon, but waiting for a 2-move Pokemon to get closer to the enemy is not possible at all, and places the poor immobile pokes into the lowest tier (okay, above Jigglypuff). You do have plenty of ways to make low mobility units useful; say, by using Bustle abilities or having them wait in specific places for specific enemies. Some maps take so long that have 1 less move than average isn't that dramatic. Just some ideas.
    Aaron's Aron likes this.

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