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Pokemon Conquest In-Game Tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by BattleStar, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    ^ haven't played with all the mons you mentioned, but charmander frankly contributes nothing. i don't see any of the "early game advantages" you're talking about; it's an average fire type and literally nothing more. i've got both charmander and darumaka among my fire types, and darumaka hits much harder and reaches its full evolution sooner, not to mention darmanitan has conqueror. charmeleon is only enough to keep up with darumaka and right when you think they're on par suddenly darumaka decides to evolve and boom outclassed completely. charmander is just average and i don't see it escaping that designation when it has competition like darumaka.

    i also don't agree with the comparison of charmander to carnivine because carnivine is by far the earliest mon you can get with levitate, and unlike the other early flying mon (starly... i haven't seen rufflet yet), carnivine can retain its dignity in combat. starly does pay dividends because eventually it becomes staraptor, but carnivine's levitate puts it head and shoulders above basically every other mon you can get for at least the first third of the game. what does charmander have that sets it apart from other fire types? it doesn't have darumaka's fierce power, and it doesn't have any distinguishing abilities or an especially powerful move. it's average. moreover, charmander is evolving towards a mon with 2 movement speed, where as darmanitan retains its predecessor's move speed and makes gains in everything else.

    as for leafeon and glaceon, a friend of mine did go for glaceon in his first run. indeed he told me that it sucked ass to have to use eevee until nixtorm. that definitely matters in the tiering imo, so i don't think they deserve top tier either, but being among the few viable mons of their typing deserves a significant mention.

    and as for rhyperior. you're right that it's usable, and that's where it stops. if you're waiting for a mon to get into range of your rock wrecker, couldn't you be using a better, faster mon and just outright attacking instead? maybe that's not necessary to beat the map, but that doesn't mean that the two mons are now on equal tiering. volcarona's fire blast does just as good a job of killing scizor as simisear's does, but you're not gonna see anyone arguing for simisear in OU, and rhyperior is the same - certainly it can get the job done, but that doesn't mean it deserves a good tier. rhyperior is objectively slower, with less move speed, less speed stat, and a move that requires a recharge. there's no way it's going to get as many opportunities to kill as a mon with high movement speed and a strong area move. yes i could use rhyperior and still do fine, but WHY do so when there are stronger mons? that's why i don't see your argument for rhyperior being tiered higher. "usable" does not a higher tier make.

    can't tell here if you're trolling or not. spamming leaf storm? that doesn't work in OU, it doesn't work here either, and grass is generally an unremarkable offensive type if not a mediocre one. moreover, when he said speed, he was referring to their speed stats - their movement speed is only okay. sceptile at least has sprint, so it can make some headway, but serperior has only 3 movement and a pitiful 2 attack. neither of them are going to be making waves when they can basically only perform one attack before neutering themselves.
  2. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    You're advocating the importance of Pokemon's range move (which I agree is important enough). Charmander has a move range of 4 before it starts evolving and it attacks 2 squares away with Ember, which is often more useful than Darumaka's run-up Flame Wheel in spite of its superior power. Darumaka needs to be two squares away to execute its move, after which it's often the case that nobody can attack at 1-range anymore because Darumaka's there. Charmander can co-operate with others, attacking at 2-range when somebody's attacking from an adjacent square. This is a tactical RPG so it's not all about Pokemon X's power vs. Pokemon Y's power. The maps matter, who the opponents are and how they behave also matter. Flame Wheel attack-type users (Darumaka and Pignite, later also Excadrill and Monferno) may hit hard but they don't let others take part because of the way their attack positions themselves, and at times they have trouble targeting the enemies successfully because there needs to be a lot of space.

    It's also not right to say Darumaka's evolving earlier than Charmeleon. Darumaka needs 110 attack to evolve, while Charmeleon needs only 83. Darumaka also has a slightly higher attack base, but Charmeleon is getting there sooner. You're lucky to have an evolved Darumaka by Valora. The difference is so slight that it hardly deserves a special mention though.

    I do agree that Darmanitan is better than Charizard taking the whole game into account (Charizard doesn't just stay there with two move though; flight still takes it to places and Flamethrower has respectable range), but it's not top tier vs. low tier difference.

    Starly is best recruited with Muneshige since he's closer to evolution that way. You can catch a wild Starly in Aurora if you like, but it won't be doing you any favours for a while. Rufflet has a very high attack for an unevolved Pokemon, 4 move and Wing Attack (same attack as Starly's evolved form, Staravia, but a higher base attack stat to deal even more damage with it). Rufflet surpasses Staravia in power, losing in bulk and support, and it can recruited on the same day as Muneshige assuming you didn't assault Violight with a full team of six.

    It's best to stop using it after a while though, as Braviary's not good for quickly clearing maps (it'd be good if there was some tremendously powerful enemy whom you didn't want making actions at all costs, like the holding mechanic in the Disgaea games, but there's no such enemy in the game), but it's best to stop using Carnivine after Cragspur or so, too (I brought it specifically for Quagsire in Valora and it was entirely obsolete by then).

    Levitate is useful indeed, but you have fliers by that point in the game too (Zubat, Starly, Rufflet), two of whom move further, so it's by no means unique. Plus, 2-star Vine Whip is quite pathetic when the others catch up in stats and not terribly powerful when you first get it either (just respectable).


    I want to say it's not nearly as efficient as you claim it to be to rush the enemy with high-move Pokemon. Let's say you have your Staraptor get ahead of the rest of your team and start assaulting the opposition with Brave Bird. It starts suffering defence and range penalties, getting hit hard during the enemy's turn and not being able to position itself for another attack due to being restrained to one move next turn. Moving one square less often makes the difference of being attacked (if you travel too far) and not being attacked (if you count squares and take attack ranges into account). Not being attacked also means avoiding annoying flinching, freezing, etc. It's frequently not only safe but also efficient time-wise to take it slowly.

    Rhyperior is also far from the immobile tortoise you're painting him to be. Attacking from 3 squares away is the same range as Ampharos and Luxray's Thunder, none of whom are given to you for free like Shingen's Rhyperior is. I used Rhyperior liberally during my first run of the game and he got kills consistently in every map he took part in, and the gap between his potential damage and that of the rest of your team is very big when he first joins. Stronger Pokemon than Rhyperior? If we talk raw strength, then there's no equal midgame, and he's still the strongest (or tied for the strongest) at its very end, just suffering from lower than average hit rates.

    Honestly though, while it's true that Rhyperior can't fight back when surrounded and that he takes time to get to distant places with 2 move, these two problems are mutually exclusive. If Rhyperior is too close to the enemy, then you positioned him poorly on your previous turn. I know, it's too easy to just move your broken Staraptor as far as possible and Brave Bird the hell out of everything mindlessly, and such effortless potential is counted when we determine what's good and what isn't, but Rhyperior CAN be used effectively -without slowing the team down-. Its speed is a problem indeed, but so is Conkeldurr's speed. Recharging is definitely not fun, but it can still move around when it can't attack, which is something Dig users can't do. And if we argue that an offensive playstyle is effective, then killing a mon or two with Rock Wrecker is still better than killing nothing at all (again, if you have a team of six, how many kills on average does each of them get per battle?).


    We do use Draco Meteor a lot in OU however... You use it once for one big brutal nuke, then disappear. The same principle applies here.

    I know what he implied. I'm referring to speed as in the swiftness of your playstyle. The main argument against 2-move mons is that you need to slow down to make them part of the battle; not entirely true when 2-move with 3-range attack is arguably better than 3-move with 1-range attack. If we're really rushing forward with our 4-move mons, then the battle should be over before the self-inflicted attack cuts have too serious of an effect on our further damage output.

    I don't know what you mean by "2 attack" in case of Leaf Storm. It has great range (you're not too unlikely to be able to get three or more enemies into its range at once) and is a 5-power move. Even if the damage isn't fatal, it's very high still and hurts a lot of enemies.
    Aaron's Aron likes this.
  3. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    I've never used Machamp. Certainly on paper it would appear to be greatly superior to Conkeldurr, except in terms of ease of obtaining - why should I go out of my way to link Machop up to Machoke when there's a perfectly good Gurdurr who is available immediately, superior to Machoke, and as such far easier to train up? I don't disagree that Machamp is better, objectively, than Conkeldurr, but Gurdurr is much easier to obtain, much easier to train up, and Gurdurr is slightly superior to Machoke, the form that will be used most during the campaign.

    The only reason I'd put it as top tier is for high availability and immediate usefulness as a Gurdurr. That's enough, I feel, and you evidently disagree. As these lists are subjective, I feel we must agree to disagree.

    I should probably address the Eeveelution concerns in one place. I have only ever used Glaceon. Frankly I thought it was a decent decision, because to be honest you can steamroll nearly all other nations bar Dragnor with a single other Pokemon. The only nation I couldn't simply overwhelm was Dragnor, so I simply waited and OHKOed the lot of them (bar that dratted Zekrom) with Icy Wind. Easy peasy. That's my reasoning for Glaceon, anyway. Flareon, Leafeon, Vaporeon, and Jolteon, the only ones that you are likely to get any earlier, are absolute dead weight against Dragnor. The big reason why I've put them all a lot higher than some of them deserve to be (and yes, I will freely admit that) is because they are, well, Eevee's evolutions. They are starters, so about as easy to get as is possible, and all of them, bar the ones I put in High, have some absurd advantage to them. To be perfectly honest, Glaceon is the only Eevee that there is no reasonable replacement for in-game (or that comes earlier). By the time you can evolve your Eevees, you could have Gyarados/Empoleon in place of Vaporeon, Darmanitan in place of Flareon, Luxray/Raichu in place of Jolteon, Carnivine for Leafeon.


    Dunno about you but my main team was at 50% before Terrera and around 80% by the end of the whole thing

    Granted I play most Pokemon games the same way, by preparing a preposterous amount for even the most moderate challenges.

    Yeah actually pretty much any Abra you get after Illusio will evolve immediately

    That was my mistake; I thought I had given Yoshimoto a Scizor in the first episode, but I must have given it to him in one of the post-game episodes, I guess. My luck with the Travelling Merchant is a little shaky.

    I greatly dislike any Pokemon that you can only get through a Warrior who can't even link with it past 40% (I never once found a Scyther warrior who had anywhere near a sufficient max link to make it usable, and believe me, I looked).

    Charmander can barely hurt anything. Charmeleon can barely hurt anything. Charizard takes ages to even get close to the battle. Charmander's early-game prowess is average at best, the only notable feature of it is that it happens to exist at that stage. Darumaka also happens to exist.

    You simply cannot get a decent Rufflet before Avia. Yes, there is that Hisahide chap who occasionally turns up in Violight with his Rufflet, but iirc his max link is only 42%. Yes, Rufflet is useful against Pugilis and Chrysalia, but I would much rather solo both of those with Staravia and invest further in its growth up to its Staraptor stage. Yes, Rufflet was good for the brief period in which I used it, but that period simply does not last.

    Everything in this whole game is perfectly usable. Nearly all Pokemon have something desirable that can give it an edge. Having said that, Rhyperior is definitely less than stellar. Even in areas in which its typing is advantageous, it will still only get about one kill per battle - and generally in these battles, I have often cleaned up the entirety of the opposing team before Rhyperior could get a look in. Rhyperior certainly didn't OHKO everything, like I thought it would - in fact, it was barely doing half to quite a few neutral targets (I didn't train it, which might explain it). If Rhyperior could get one kill per battle, that would be great. But I got sick and tired of waiting for it to lug itself over to where the rest of my team had already cleaned up the opposition (you are definitely capable of beating the opponent in three turns after the punch is thrown, or even two, provided you are using an optimum team).

    As far as different campaigns go, post-Terrera:

    Cragspur: Too many narrow passages, takes forever to get out of the initial area, boulders can stop you from getting into position very easily, and what's more you can't OHKO anything there except Kai's Pansear and maybe the Roggenrola

    Yaksha: Hard to get into position. Sandile, Pawniard, Scraggy, and Scrafty all resist Rock Wrecker, Zoroark can take a hit (and honestly who cares about the Zubat).

    Viperia: Granted, Rhyperior is very good here. It can hit flag-holders from outside their range and can bypass its poor range with the Secret Passages. It also beats Nene's Golbat and pretty much everything save Hanzo's Spiritomb.

    Avia: Assuming you manage to make it to the battle (Avia takes ages to navigate), you will end up being killed by Magoichi's Carnivine. You also can't actually OHKO Masamune's Braviary without prior training iirc

    Valora: Can't hit anything, takes ages to get anywhere, can't get past the Cameras, and can't even touch any of the Steel-types, or Ina's Quagsire.

    Spectra: Takes ages to get to the battle, and can't outrun the Will-O-Wisps. Sure it can hurt the things weak to it, but by the time it gets there you should have polished them off anyway.

    Nixtorm: Interesting that you mentioned this one, because lol 1 movement range - Rhyperior isn't going anywhere, and even if it could, it gets slaughtered pretty quickly, even if it does manage to hit one of the Ice-types. Woe betide you if you have to try to chase Gracia's Musharna with this thing.

    Dragnor: Can only move in a 1-2-1-2-1-2 movement pattern because of the nodes. Can't hurt any of the dragons. Only redeeming quality is that it is immune to Bolt Strike, but if you happen to be trapped in that endgame scenario, you are likely to run out of turns before you can beat Nobunaga's Zekrom.

    Yes, Rhyperior is easy to get, but unlike the Eevees or indeed anything else that can be easily obtained, it is far inferior to anything else you may choose to name in practice. As in, it's not even good at what it does. If Luxray and Ampharos had 2 movement range I would say the same thing. You don't really need a Rock-type post-Terrera, so the fact that it is the most easily obtainable Rock-type is not particularly relevant.

    Also, a movement range of 2 is far worse than you are making it out to be. There are very few maps which you can navigate wholly in straight lines - Rhyperior does take forever to get to the battlefield, and even if it does get there, you are only really going to get one shot before you win. I say "before you win" because generally, if you have even two or three moderately decent Pokemon of a favourable type against the nation you're battling, you should be winning easily. Rhyperior does not help here - it is decidedly average against everything. This may be a plus for some people, but I don't really see it that way.

    I'd agree with you on Pineco and Luxio being better than their respective evolved counterparts, but at the time I didn't have the time or the patience to go into unevolved forms, so I left them as a "complete package". For example, "Conkeldurr" refers to "Gurdurr -> Conkeldurr" and "Luxray" refers to "Shinx -> Luxio -> Luxray", even if I didn't necessarily go into details about any of them beyond "they're good, I guess". Scyther happens to be notably different from Scizor, hence why I listed them separately.

    Leaf Storm is pathetically weak. And yes, see above about leveling up areas - that was a mistake on my part. Although, when I used Motonari through the episode, his Snivy was pretty poor, for posterity.

    Thanks. Although, I did say that Darumaka is weaker against Fontaine (although it can actually OHKO quite a few of them, oddly) and that Magikarp is an annoyance for Gyarados (although I was only mentioning that as a "you don't get them immediately so it's more than standard effort to obtain their useful form" sort of thing, not a complete disadvantage).

    Eevee is at least decent if you're abusing Celebrate and Jigglypuff I just tend to ignore if I can. Warrior abilities are entirely irrelevant. Waiting somewhere in the hope that they will eventually turn up is dull when you could hypothetically be getting up to them in half the time. Long maps are even worse for low-movement Pokemon.

    Charmeleon has a lower Attack than Darumaka and you can easily get Darmanitan as early as Chrysalia.

    Some maps are impossibly hard to navigate skilfully and anything with a movement range of 2 is automatically worse for the first episode, regardless of Flying-type or otherwise. Charizard is a poor choice purely because any Pokemon with a movement range of 3 can get there and start attacking before Charizard can make itself useful, particularly on the larger maps.

    The AI tend to bunch together, which makes Staraptor able to a) hit more than one target on the first pass and b) easily able to attack another enemy on the second turn. There are very few enemies with long-range moves (Mitsuhide being perhaps the most notable exception) since Staraptor also needs to travel one square further when it attacks. It is very, VERY easy to break the opponent's team with Staraptor.

    Ampharos and Luxray both also have bad attacks. 3-squares-away is a very poor attack radius where nearly everything will run up to you, surround you and hit you if able, but at least those two happen to have 3 movement range. Don't assume that a long move range makes it any easier to hit a target - if anything, it makes it a lot harder, because there will inevitably be obstacles, walls, other Pokemon, and the like that get in your way.

    They aren't mutually exclusive. It's bad before it gets to the enemy and bad after it get to the enemy. It will only ever get a kill if the rest of your team is solely comprised of things that can't kill in one hit - and by the time you get Rhyperior, you have access to a heck of a lot of these - or if the entirety of your team has 2 movement range.

    I won't deny that Rhyperior is strong. But you can do far more damage in those two turns with almost any other Pokemon - and it's not the OHKO machine you make it out to be. It can OHKO frail stuff, sure, but then so can most other powerful Pokemon in the game, of which there are a good many.

    Draco Meteor usually has extremely powerful users with big attacking stats, and more importantly, only one type in the game resists it. A grand total of seven types resist Grass, and Sceptile and Serperior have attacking stats of 3 and 2, respectively.

    No, that's not the argument against them at all. I couldn't give a stuff whether or not Rhyperior or Charizard is part of the main party. The problem with them is that you can actually very easily finish the battle before they arrive. This is why they are subpar, not because you are forced to make them part of the battle. They don't even get to be a part of the battle at all.

    Serperior's attacking stat is 2. It does not hurt very much, and hurts even less after one use. You can skip a turn and reset it to normal, obviously, but then you run into the same problem as Rhyperior. Hence, Lapras can actually beat Serperior quite comfortably.

    ---------

    I might make some changes to my earlier post at some point, but I'm tired now. Cheerio.
    Aaron's Aron likes this.
  4. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    i accept that charmander's movement speed of 4 gives it a notable advantage over darumaka for mobility, since their moves have the same area of effect (barring darumaka's run-up space). but as it evolves that goes down to 3 and then 2. meanwhile darumaka hits harder than charmeleon AND charmander, noticeably so. the fact that flame wheel moves you forward a space is also annoying, but it opens up new tactical opportunities of its own - i can stand back with darumaka and charge in for an attack, and then move in charmander (or a mon with similar range) to attack second, standing behind darumaka. just as charmander's move has disadvantages of having to step back to hit enemies in your face, it has the tactical advantage of hitting stuff while standing behind someone else. darumaka's move has different advantages and disadvantages, but they're still there, and darumaka's move also happens to hit way harder.

    charmeleon on the other hand is in a bad position to be compared to darumaka. their moves have the same power but darumaka can hit at least as hard, sometimes even harder if you can abuse run up. darumaka technically has more "range" than charmeleon as well, since they have the same movement speed but darumaka's attack hits an enemy from one square further than charmeleon's. (again though you do have to put up with the disadvantage of that run-through square).

    as for charizard, i haven't used it yet so i can't say for sure. the combination of ranged attack flamethrower and the flying movement might be enough to compensate for having only 2 movement speed. but that's still pretty damn slow. i intend to keep using darumaka when i resume play and i might keep using charmander as well, we'll have to see.

    also, i see some issues with combining movement speed and attack range/area to describe the "range" of a mon. if other mons on my team are moving faster, the enemy will get caught up trying to attack them and won't keep advancing into the range of my slower mons. in terms of where you can hit stuff, it's true that movement speed and attack range can generally be added up, but the movement speed is more useful than the attack range since it also aids my mon in positioning. as bmb mentioned, having ranged moves also brings in the disadvantage of being unable to hit stuff at close range, meaning that if you can't retreat to get some breathing room, you're screwed. ofc your tactics should be planning for that, but (generalizing here) why retreat if you can use a mon with melee area-of-attack and stay in the fray?

    when we were discussing leaf storm, i was referring to serperior's attack stat (ie 2), not the power of leaf storm (5). and besides, if you use leaf storm the way you claim (hit once and then gtfo), then how exactly do you plan on getting multiple kills with it, especially considering that many many mons resist grass? the attack cuts will cripple you if you keep attacking. if you can't score multiple kills in a battle, what exactly justifies the tier boost? a strong mon (cough darmanitan) can wipe the field if its attack hits neutrally against most of its opponents and has a good attack area. that's what is expected of a top tier mon. if you're getting one kill per game with leaf storm, you're definitely underperforming when compared to a higher tier mon. scoring one kill per game is AVERAGE at best. that's why those mons remain low tier.

    i don't see the comparison between draco meteor and leaf storm either, because draco meteor has fabulous neutral coverage where as leaf storm's coverage is pathetic, and because draco meteor is being used by dragons (classically they have some of the strongest mons in the game) where as leaf storm is being used by grass types (of which many suck).

    and finally, if for some reason my staraptor makes a massive advance into the enemy position and starts getting surrounded/beat up. firstly, i have intimidate, so it'll at least take a bit longer before it gets destroyed altogether. secondly, the rest of my team should have high movement speed as well so they can keep up; otherwise that's a failure on my part to form the team, not on staraptor's part being unable to destroy everything on its own. seeing as i'm not going to settle for the slowasses with 2 movement speed, staraptor is not going to be the only mon in the fray. certainly if you're making a psychotic one-man charge and all your other mons are standing back to watch, bad things are gonna happen. but one man charging is generally bad tactics. it's wise to move slowly and attack as a group... if your team is slow. and if your team is fast, then you can do the same thing - attack as a group - except you can do so faster.
  5. Garud

    Garud

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    Simply put, how can you make a judgement on this if you haven't gone through and experienced this? I used both of them side-by-side and Machamp significantly outclasses Conkeldurr. This includes offensively, defensively and in a support role. He has identical movement, with superior range and a better variety of abilities. His only downside is that you need to recruit Machop, like you said, but I had 2 warlords who could get perfect Sync with Machop by the time I even got to Pugilis. And I got him to Machoke in almost no time flat. In fact, Machoke and Gurdurr evolve in almost the same amount of time, because they evolve at link level 60. Gurdurr evolves a little earlier, I will admit that, but it doesn't give him a huge edge, merely a slight one. And lets face it, it's not hard to just auto-train until they both evolve anyway. Also worth noting that they have almost identical stats and both Machoke and Gurdurr get Wake-Up Slap.

    Basically, Machamp - Top, Conkeldurr - High/Mid
  6. nyttyn

    nyttyn Blink Blink
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    Speaking of judgment....

    [​IMG]
    Arceus
    Arceus Tier

    Arceus is really in a tier of its own. It is far and away the single most powerful pokemon in all of Conquest. Top tier stats, 4 speed move, a five star attack that hits EVERYTHING next to him for neutral no matter what type they are, has a perfect link with the Hero who has arguably the best ability in the game, can dodge attacks frequently thanks to omnipotence, and restores HP every turn thanks to omnipotence, all of this with only one weakness.

    Really, it's not even fair to compare him to top tier pokemon. Arceus is in a tier of his own. Sure, you only get him at the very end of the game, but he is so absurdly powerful that he just breaks the game over one knee. A Arceus with a Guardian Charm is easily hands down the single scariest thing to fight in all of Pokemon Conquest.

    In short:
    -Highest stats in the game (only 4 star attack keeps it from having 5 stars in every stat)
    -4 range
    -Hits everything for neutral
    -Amazing attack range
    -Amazing bulk
    -Regen
    -Can dodge attacks
    -Great typing that has only one weakness
    -Extremely high damage attack
    -It's god!
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  7. UllarWarlord

    UllarWarlord

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    I think we're being a wee bit too harsh on Jigglypuff...I'm sure we can all agree the Munna line is worse than hers. Plus, she's a good distractor for absorbing hits. And if you choose to evolve her (which I made an investment in) her performance improves tenfold with Hyper Voice.

    Jussayin'
  8. OVERGRO

    OVERGRO

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    And I think we forget... Jigglypuff has to come with you for every single boss battle. So even if it sucks, it does get training and Sweet Song is alright, and has saved me a couple of times!
  9. Too Funk to Druck

    Too Funk to Druck

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    No it doesn't. Oichi has to come. You can bring any Pokemon she's linked to.
  10. Kikuichimonji

    Kikuichimonji

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    Oichi and MC both get a 90% link with Starly which is available in the very first kingdom and pretty much the best Pokemon in the game.
  11. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    I personally think Ochi is much better if linked with dratini, when I had the chance I replace Wigglytuff for a dragon type which she does better with.

    Also now that we had quite a bit of discussion I will begin making a skeleton of the tiers sometime.
  12. typon77

    typon77

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    I've been debating what I should link Oichi to. I've just beaten Illusio and Terrera and Jigglypuff is just god awful. The only merit to bringing Oichi is Sweet Song, which is an amazing Warrior skill. However, I'm not sure what I should replace her with. I already have Muneshige with his Perfect Link Staravia, and I don't want to deal with Dragonite's 2 movement. Any suggestions?

    Also, I've been having great luck with Gyarados and Darumaka. Both hit extremely hard, and Gyarados is insanely bulky. Gyarados even took 3 Electro Balls in Violight from Joltiks.
  13. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Since you've got Oichi, you might as well go for a Dragon. I'm pretty sure the best one you can get at your stage of the game is Deino (the cave is automatically lv2 in Yaksha iirc) - Dragon Rage is pretty good even in mid-game, Zweilous isn't half bad (and very good indeed against Spectra), and although I'm fairly certain you'll need at least 70% link to evolve, Hydreigon wrecks everything. I'm fairly certain the link maxes out at around 80%.

    If you want to check Oichi's link with a different Pokemon, try this google doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhyVUjZVZbt9dENPMjNrSE5BT3kzVjhoMTdkbndXU3c#gid=0

    Also has all other warriors in the game; I've found it to be pretty helpful. Oichi does seem to get 90% link with just about everything, but it can help if you're unsure.

    (This is assuming you aren't using passwords, in which case I dunno what to advise)

    Also, this was apparently directed at me a little earlier and I missed it.

    I believe that the bold speaks volumes. Why would you ever use two Fighting-types? An In-Game Tier list, as I have said multiple times, is not about conventional power. You only need one Fighting-type - and I am prepared to stand by this. There is no point in training two, if you want team variety. With that said, why would you ever choose any Fighting-type over Yoshihiro's Gurdurr? This is about getting the most efficient playthrough possible, remember.

    Why should you go after a Machop user early in the game when Yoshihiro is right there and, by virtue of his map, extremely easy to capture? Why would you want to waste time leveling up a Machop to a Machoke when you could be leveling up a perfectly good Gurdurr instead, which is faster, stronger, bulkier, and thus far easier to improve link with? Not to mention that while Machamp outclasses Conkeldurr (and yes, I will willingly concede this), Gurdurr directly outclasses Machoke, and you will be using Gurdurr/Machoke for the majority of your playthrough, if indeed you are going for efficiency.

    Gurdurr/Conkeldurr is top tier, without question. Whether or not the same can be said for Machamp is debatable. But Machamp is less easily obtainable in the main game than Conkeldurr is, and as such, Conkeldurr has the advantage over it for the majority of the game, irrespective of late-game advantages, and is thus placed higher in the tier lists on my list.

    Also there can be no argument that Jigglypuff is anything but awful, sorry
    Aaron's Aron likes this.
  14. Garud

    Garud

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    138
    There's plenty of question about Gurdurr/Conkeldurr. He is NOT Top-tier.

    I used two fighting-types because I wanted to. Because I like both Machamp and Conkeldurr. I thought they would be awesome together.

    They were not.

    As someone who has used both, I understand that this listing is about efficiency. There is no reason I should have to keep a team of completely different types, that's not necessarily the most efficient. But even if I was to buy into your premise, the weakest link in my team was Conkeldurr by far. In fact, of all the pokemon I used, Conkeldurr was by and large one of the least useful. Therefore, if I had to pick someone to get rid of, Conkeldurr would be the first to go.

    Now, here's a couple of things you seem to misunderstand. See, I never went looking for a warlord who had perfect sync with Machop, but I had actually found 2 through my natural recruiting. In addition, the warlords that actually come with Machop have around a 70% sync rate anyway (and you only get to 66 by the endgame regardless). So there is no effort involved, at all. I had to go out of my way for other pokemon, but Machamp practically fell into my lap. So what, he's not paired with a named warlord, who cares? They don't have any major strengths over the main game than the others do. And since Machop pretty much evolves immediately, he might as well be Machoke at the time of the Sync.

    In addition, Gurdurr SLIGHTLY outclasses Machoke, but it's not even a significant difference even in that regard. Gurdurr may have a slightly higher damage output (like 5 damage more, lol), but he's not KO'ing anything Machoke can't KO also, and he's not 2HKOing things that Machoke can't 2HKO as well. It takes very little time for Machoke to catch up to Gurdurr, and they are basically identical. It's hardly a matter of training Magikarp up 15 levels to get Gyarados, hardly inefficient at all. Your point here might have held more water if the two didn't have final evolutions, but they do and they are wildly different.

    You seem to lack understanding about how Top-tiers are supposed to work, they are supposed to be the best of the best. Just because Snivy/Treeko are available early does not make them Top-tier. Can Conkeldurr clear an important map on his own? No. Can Machamp clear an important map on his own? Yes. In fact here's another comparison:

    When I fought the final battle, the one in the tower, this is the results-

    Conkeldurr failed to KO Lucario, and was KO'd in return.
    Machamp KO'd Lapras and Aggron in one turn turn (nabbing 2 boosts), and went on to KO Infernape and out-damage Arceus against Rayquaza.

    Now lets compare. Conkeldurr didn't score a single kill, even against a pokemon he had a type advantage over. Machamp KO'd multiple pokemon, and was able to outdamage the main legendary of the game against the other legendary of the game, even though he had a type disadvantage. The two are clearly unbalanced, and Machamp is the clear winner.

    This whole argument is moot really, considering you've never even used Machamp. But really, Machamp is clearly Top (Obtained early enough, easy to obtain, no real babying stage, great abilities, fills a variety of roles, naturally boosts his stats, great offensive type, great primary move and great stats) versus Conkeldurr's High/Mid (Obtained early enough, easy to obtain, no babying stage, average abilities, has trouble filling any role, naturally drops his stats, great offensive type, poor primary move and great stats).
  15. RedMeowth

    RedMeowth

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    132
    If we can't use Wi-Fi events or passwords for this list, then why bother analyzing Serperior and Samurott? There are no banks in this story, so we have no access to the areas you can find Snivy or Oshawott. The only way you can get them in the first story is to do the Motonari & Motochika download. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure you cannot get them.

    I'll forgive Scyther and Scizor, since there is a Warrior you can recruit that is already linked to Scyther (and you can get a Metal Coat from the travelling merchant). However, keep in mind that this Warrior cannot link with Scyther / Scizor past about 42% or something. I do remember meeting a Warrior with a Shieldon, too, but he had the same problem: only linking with it about 40% or so since he actually liked Psychic Pokemon.

    EDIT: Maybe you can find other people with Snivy or Oshawott right away in the main story, and I just never did. I'm playing through Hideyoshi's story now, and I just saw a Warrior that is linked with a Snivy in Pugilis. I don't know if this guy can appear in the first story, I never saw a guy linked with a Snivy during Legend of Ransei besides Motonari. Then again, Warriors in Ransei use some weird stuff before you recruit them. I can't really fight him right now. If I see him again, I'll try to check him out.
  16. Sir_Lu

    Sir_Lu

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    623
    You having two perfect links with Machop may rare - I've started playing today and I have none. On the flipside, I have two that are perfect links with Timburr.

    Going out of my way to recruit a Warrior with a perfect link is getting tedious. While Machamp may outclass Conkledurr in the long run, I've wasted more time looking for the warrior than actually playing. Machamp lower than Conkle seems reasonable to me at this point.

    Or my luck is just bad.
  17. Garud

    Garud

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    138
    I think your luck just may be bad, but in any case, recruit a Machop with one of those and you can get a 90% Link, which is generally good enough (I didn't go past 70% anyway). Remember, you don't NEED 100% perfect link, anything 70% or higher will be more than enough to carry you through to the endgame.
  18. Nubbins

    Nubbins

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2010
    Messages:
    274
    Team variety is a joke since the best team for most maps is one warlord + guardian charm. And you should have enough warlords later on in a campaign that you can mix and match according to what you're going against.

    If we're talking about post main game (which we should), pokemon availability should not be a big issue. If you do an easy campaign like Ieyasu's 100 pokemon campaign, you can easily get 5 of every evolution item, 20 guardian charms, stage 2 on all recruited warlords, and evolved pokemon for all your warlords, as well as link 90 pokemon to spice up your team like Lucario for Kenshin.

    I personally would rank Machamp slightly higher than Conkeldurr since cross chop can hit multiple opponent and superpower's side effect is very depressing. Yoshihero has a 90 link with machamp so links shouldn't be a big issue. You almost never hit 100 link if you aren't GC abusing. 100 links are for wireless battles.
  19. callforjudgement

    callforjudgement

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    301
    Thread's been silent for a month, but I checked the rules and I think I'm allowed to bump it if I have something to add. (My excuse is that I'm European so I got the game well after the rest of you.) This thread is mostly talking about main game, not postgame. (The smaller campaigns can generally be defeated in 2 days just by repeatedly winning battles with a squad of 3, leaving room for 3 more to march to the conquered territory and conquer another. This gives you no real choice in what you're using except who goes where; the trick is to use a small number of warriors with a type advantage to start off with, then just throw everything you have left at the remaining territory.)

    I think I played the game somewhat differently from everyone else, going through it much faster; all the "awesome when evolved" stuff is irrelevant for anything but stone evolutions and Staraptor, IMO, because I'd already completed the game by that point. (Starly evolves mindboggingly quickly; I had four Staravias by the end of the campaign, and most of those were from "Train" delegations and from things like shopping. I evolved a Magikarp by taking it shopping, too, but that was mostly for fun; I don't think I used the resulting Gyarados because the main campaign was almost over by then.) Instead of grinding when I couldn't beat a battle, I tried to formulate a strategy that worked (things like AI exploits, mostly), which lead to a rather different team than what you've been describing.

    I'd first like to argue in favour of Jigglypuff; it's nowhere near the junk many people in this thread have been claiming it is. For one thing, Doubleslap does not deal negligible damage. (And Hyper Voice is one of the most consistent damaging moves, if you evolve it; the damage potential is average but you can frequently hit three or four targets with it.) But more importantly, it's the easiest-to-obtain wall in the game, and it's pretty good at walling; my tactic for getting through the game quickly was "stick Jigglypuff in a chokepoint and do ranged attacks from behind it". You can give Oichi a Super Potion (or even a Full Restore) in order to enhance its walling ability further. Its main issue is a tendency to be oneshotted by Fighting-type moves, but that shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who knows the games.

    As a side-effect, Rhyperior is very good if you have a viable wall like Jigglypuff or Wigglytuff. Its attack is still amazing as ever, the cooldown turn often doesn't matter because it's hard enough to get it in range anyway (you can still move during it, so it's giving Rhyperior an effective range of 4), and you can just hold the enemies up and vaporize them one by one with giant rocks from the sky. (Rock Wrecker is one of the only moves that does entirely respectable damage even when resisted.)

    It hasn't even really been mentioned, but I'd also like to speak out in favour of Drilbur. (Yes, seriously.) For one thing, Dig has entirely viable damage. For another, while it's underground, it's a perfect wall; non-flying/levitating/ghost enemies can't move through it's square, even if they're being used by endgame bosses. And finally, Zekrom can't touch it. (Admittedly, my not-particularly-trained Drilbur did only about 35 points of damage to Zekrom, so it wouldn't beat it by itself; the battle would run out of time first. But it definitely helped, being around on a part with what my best neutral attacks would do.) It also has great coverage throughout the later half of the game. I wouldn't want to run Drilbur in multiples, but it's good at what it does. Finally, what else are you going to use if you want a ground type? Wooper? Sandile? (Hint: they both suck unevolved.)

    I personally used Jolteon rather than Glaceon for the campaign, although mostly by mistake (I didn't realise Glaceon even existed in the game). I may still have gone with Jolteon anyway, though. Sprint gives it range 5, and its massive speed gives it a lot of evasion, so it has one very important use (especially in places like Dragnor); you can use it to separate the opposing team by luring out some enemies and not others, or causing the back part of the enemy's forces to try to focus it (and hopefully fail) while their front lines go after the rest of your army. I don't think I could have completed Dragnor without this, it's just that valuable; I used it to deal with the first two of Nobunaga's forces and then the last 4. (The attack is mostly irrelevant compared to that feature, but it does respectable damage and has a great AoE shape, so I'm happy with it.)

    Without Glaceon, you're going to need other Ice-types, in order to be able to damage down Nobunaga before running out of time. Cubchoo and Spheal are both a little underwhelming, but they're better than nothing, and I actually used them (they're better than the other alternatives there). I'd say their typing is enough of an advantage that they need to be considered for in-game use regardless of their other faults. (I'm not sure if you can get Snorunt in the main campaign, but if you can, do; Froslass is one of the better Ice-types, and it's a stone evolution so there should be no issue in evolving it. Just make sure you have a female Warrior own it.)

    I'll also suggest Sewaddle for the early-to-mid game; it's surprisingly bulky (especially with Grass Cloak, on the maps where you can abuse that, such as many warrior recruitment maps), and it's probably the most reliable source of bug-type damage that's at all easy to locate (and in fact, it's by far the easiest of the bugs to get hold of, apart from possibly Venipede but that sucks). (Bug Bite doesn't suck at all. At least, not when you're using it; enemies using it on you is another matter.)

    Some less controversial suggestions: Darumaka is great. Mine never had a chance to evolve, but Flame Wheel + Run Up is almost as good as you could want from an early-game Fire type, and it's easily obtainable. Gurdurr is awesome, and as a side note, Fighting is good enough in the late game that you can easily use two Fighting-types (I used Machop as the other one; mine was rather fragile, but use of walls and manipulating ranges so that I always got the first attack meant that I managed to keep it alive most of the way through Yaksha). I think Machop is the second-best fighting type that doesn't require evolution, not that that's saying much; possibly Timburr is. Carnivine is indeed excellent throughout the start of the game, and it indeed drops off later, but surprisingly late.

    I guess I might have a different focus from the rest of you (going for speed rather than simplicity), but I think a team that's good at winning at all is the first step along the path to a team that's good at winning easily.
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  20. jumbolax

    jumbolax

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    really?

    you people are underrating many pokemon. i used rhypherior the whole way! it OHKOed rayquaza, bravery, and lapras!
    also, i now have a rank 90 darmanatan on yoshimoto!
  21. Luppy2758

    Luppy2758

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    42

    While Arceus would be broken beyond words, how does it compare against Nobunaga's team? I feel that Arceus struggles on the final battle. Arceus has 70% link with the hero while Nobunaga's Shiny Rayquaza has 72% link. Judgement can do ~50-60 damage at best and other enemy members can gang up to defeat it. You need team support to succeed.

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