I'm expecting a few newcomers and a some people who have done it before. It will no doubt be explained again then. I will be on the Smogon Server at 7:30 PM GMT -5 tonight, so if you PM me there I will explain it then.
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Pokemon Draft!
- Thread starter Platyp
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Oh boy, lots of stuff.
Well, now that winter break has officially ended for me, I'm sadly going to not be able to host drafts on the weekdays. I will, however, be able to do them on Friday and Saturday nights. However, I will need to begin to take PM signups for the weekend tourneys. Recently, people have been joining and then dropping out.
The first post has been updated with a lot of stuff. I pretty much copy-pasted my post from PokeBeach because it was a lot neater over there. Things that have been added include a specific method of pack generation, a revamped tournaments section, a revamped mechanics section, and a list of qualified tournament hosts.
Anyone can host a draft, but the "qualified" hosts are people who I can rely on to successfully carry one out, so they will be helping me out on the "official" weekend drafts. PM me if I know you, I have watched you host a draft, and you want to be on the list.
Also, we're thinking of altering draft mechanics somewhat. Here are a few of the ideas that have come to mind.
What do you guys think of these?
Well, now that winter break has officially ended for me, I'm sadly going to not be able to host drafts on the weekdays. I will, however, be able to do them on Friday and Saturday nights. However, I will need to begin to take PM signups for the weekend tourneys. Recently, people have been joining and then dropping out.
The first post has been updated with a lot of stuff. I pretty much copy-pasted my post from PokeBeach because it was a lot neater over there. Things that have been added include a specific method of pack generation, a revamped tournaments section, a revamped mechanics section, and a list of qualified tournament hosts.
Anyone can host a draft, but the "qualified" hosts are people who I can rely on to successfully carry one out, so they will be helping me out on the "official" weekend drafts. PM me if I know you, I have watched you host a draft, and you want to be on the list.
Also, we're thinking of altering draft mechanics somewhat. Here are a few of the ideas that have come to mind.
- Remove the trading phase. I discussed this in an earlier post.
- Allow players to use NU Pokemon instead of their own Pokemon to create more diversity in the draft.
- Chance pack ratios from 2:3:5 to 3:3:4 to emphasize OU a bit more.
What do you guys think of these?
The trading phase has been less then useful in my opinion. Usually only 1 trade happens, and more often than not, none. I guess in the off chance that its useful, and that people can just start working on their teams if they don't want to trade, we might as well keep it.
Either we haven't ever done this, or I've just never been around, but I'd like to try this part. I'd be interested to see what happens. Would it be NU for sure or just from the bottom drafting tier?
I support this obviously because I suggested it. I think it would help generate more of a team with a core. Instead of having often times ineffectual pokemon that you know you won't use, you have better pokemon which can allow you better / different strategies.
I agree with you on the trading phase. I've only seen a trade happen once, and that was because I knew exactly what I wanted to try going in.
As for the NU Pokemon, I would say to hand pick some of them that could be used to be added to the list of Pokemon that could appear in the packs. For example, Porygon2 and Medicham can be very useful in an environment such as this. However, allowing anyone to substitute any NU Pokemon into their team kind of seems to defeat the purpose of working with what you drafted.
I don't have any problem with how the packs are structured now. Part of it might be that I tend to play a lot more UU than OU, so I know how the UU Pokemon are generally used, but I think that most of them can work well if used correctly. Sure, there are a few that just don't work well outside of an entirely UU environment, but this isn't the case with most of them. I like the diversity of usually having to use some of them during the course of a draft.
Yeah. I play basically only OU. I'm going to try to get into UU soon though, probably after the changes from the testing are done. Even then, there will still be plenty of diversity, and I think the change would be slight, and might even make the draft a little more competitive. I at least want to see what it would be like.
I haven't drafted so maybe I shouldn't opine, but my thoughts on the proposals are:
* I don't really like the idea of a trade phase because it expands your options, which is precisely what draft is not about in my opinion. Unless you open packs that really blow, you should have adequate material to build with.
* For the same reason, I think permitting people to just grab any NU Pokemon and mash it into their team (which is I believe what you're proposing?) also works against the purpose of the draft. People assume NU means "crap", but there are a lot of very workable NU Pokemon (Tauros e.g. seems pretty good to pull out of nowhere), and it gives access to a lot of "silver bullet" mons (Pory2 vs. the Intimidate dragons, Primeape vs. sleepers, etc.) which can invalidate people's first picks in a manner I would suggest is frustrating. If you take Breloom high only to see someone grab a NU Vital Spirit/Insomnia Pokemon out of nowhere and hose you, that seems like no fun. Compare to picking Breloom high only to run into a Sleep Talker- they had to spend a draft pick on a guy who Sleep Talks well, and you know that they did so and can reasonably plan around it.
* I don't have a very strong opinion on changing the ratios, although to my knowledge the OUs don't totally dominate the format. Given that, it seems more in character to leave the proportion of OUs smaller, as it encourages/forces people to try out mons they otherwise wouldn't play and rewards people for knowing or figuring out how to best make use of them. This is again similar to TCG drafts, where people look at things they would never otherwise use (Mindless Null e.g.) and have to evaluate their strength in the context of the environment, which is different from their strength in a void. And while we may never see any breakthroughs from it, I think it's a good way to get people thinking about alternatives to the usual suspects for OU play. It was only a few months ago that Roserade was UU, right? Now she's a top lead.
This is much more an issue of making things "interesting" and "fun" and "clever" rather than competitively balanced, but that's the point of drafting, right?
* I don't really like the idea of a trade phase because it expands your options, which is precisely what draft is not about in my opinion. Unless you open packs that really blow, you should have adequate material to build with.
* For the same reason, I think permitting people to just grab any NU Pokemon and mash it into their team (which is I believe what you're proposing?) also works against the purpose of the draft. People assume NU means "crap", but there are a lot of very workable NU Pokemon (Tauros e.g. seems pretty good to pull out of nowhere), and it gives access to a lot of "silver bullet" mons (Pory2 vs. the Intimidate dragons, Primeape vs. sleepers, etc.) which can invalidate people's first picks in a manner I would suggest is frustrating. If you take Breloom high only to see someone grab a NU Vital Spirit/Insomnia Pokemon out of nowhere and hose you, that seems like no fun. Compare to picking Breloom high only to run into a Sleep Talker- they had to spend a draft pick on a guy who Sleep Talks well, and you know that they did so and can reasonably plan around it.
* I don't have a very strong opinion on changing the ratios, although to my knowledge the OUs don't totally dominate the format. Given that, it seems more in character to leave the proportion of OUs smaller, as it encourages/forces people to try out mons they otherwise wouldn't play and rewards people for knowing or figuring out how to best make use of them. This is again similar to TCG drafts, where people look at things they would never otherwise use (Mindless Null e.g.) and have to evaluate their strength in the context of the environment, which is different from their strength in a void. And while we may never see any breakthroughs from it, I think it's a good way to get people thinking about alternatives to the usual suspects for OU play. It was only a few months ago that Roserade was UU, right? Now she's a top lead.
This is much more an issue of making things "interesting" and "fun" and "clever" rather than competitively balanced, but that's the point of drafting, right?
Even with the ratio of 3,3,4, you still get four pokemon from the final pack. Thats still that highest of the ratios, its more than it seems. With 3,3,4, it doesn't take away from the concept of the Draft, but it keeps it a bit more balance. Often times, I've seen one of the players OU pokemon absolutely dominate a match. With 3,3,4, that will be harder to do, with it being more balanced.
A comparison could be the Uber Inclusion tournament where everybody tries to exploit the Uber for that round. If there were more Uber pokemon available, that Uber wouldn't be as exploitable.
A comparison could be the Uber Inclusion tournament where everybody tries to exploit the Uber for that round. If there were more Uber pokemon available, that Uber wouldn't be as exploitable.
Meh, I don't usually see the Tops dominating. For example, in my match against yankees, I was almost completely swept by his Mamo, while I was able to handle his Latias (I think he had one).
I've noticed that whenever Scizor, Salamence, or Latias get picked, the people who pick them usually don't actually win the whole tourney. They expect the Top to carry the rest of their team and fail to get enough synergy going.
We've already done plenty of drafts. I also thought this too, but its better than you think. The biggest flaw is the lack of organization during the drafting. As the Drafts get more organized though, people will know what to expect and that will help things move smoother.
The Reaver and I have talked daily, tossing ideas back and forth about what we could do to make this better. As this gets more popular though, we'll get a better idea of what people like / dislike.
Well, I'm usually a part of the drafts, and they're extremely fun. I like the 3:3:4 format idea, but idk if the NU thing will work.
We've done a lot of drafts, so we've basically gotten rid of any faults you may think occur, but thank you for the suggestions ;D
Btw, I suggest everyone try and join at least one draft, they're a lot of fun.
We've done a lot of drafts, so we've basically gotten rid of any faults you may think occur, but thank you for the suggestions ;D
Btw, I suggest everyone try and join at least one draft, they're a lot of fun.
I've been following this thread with quite a bit of interest myself. However, I wonder if dividing up the lists based solely by tiers is really the best idea.
For example, choosing from UU pokemon only for the "commons" in a pack seems strange when you look at how popular some NU pokemon are. If you look at the December usage stats for standard, some NU pokemon (i.e. Medicham (#106), Ursaring (#114), Cradily (#84), Porygon2(#55) and Charizard (#66)) are used more often than some UU pokemon (i.e. Scyther (#151), Chansey (#174), Rotom (#194), or Mesprit (#141)).
Granted, a good number of these often-used NU pokemon (say that five times fast) tend to either be one-trick-ponys or only work on very specific teams, but enough people out there use these pokemon that it would be frankly a little unfair not have them be avaliable to draft.
Here's two ways one could change the lists to include the more popular NU pokemon:
1. Just add ten to fifteen NU pokemon to the UU pool - probably based on what the more popular NU pokemon are. This may make the pool size unbalanced; the number of "common" pokemon drawn per pack might need to increase (to, say, 2:3:6 in total, now leaving three unpicked pokemon after all the drafting is completed).
2. Using popularity instead of tiers to determine pool placement. For example, the 25 most popular pokemon used in standard for the previous month become "rare", the next 30 become "uncommon", and the next 50 or so are the "commons". This keeps the "rare" and "uncommon" lists essentially the same as they currently are, save for opening up a few UU / NU pokemon to become "uncommons". The "common" list would now be a mix of the better UU and NU pokemon.
Either way, I am very interested in this format and would love to play a game of it sometime!
For example, choosing from UU pokemon only for the "commons" in a pack seems strange when you look at how popular some NU pokemon are. If you look at the December usage stats for standard, some NU pokemon (i.e. Medicham (#106), Ursaring (#114), Cradily (#84), Porygon2(#55) and Charizard (#66)) are used more often than some UU pokemon (i.e. Scyther (#151), Chansey (#174), Rotom (#194), or Mesprit (#141)).
Granted, a good number of these often-used NU pokemon (say that five times fast) tend to either be one-trick-ponys or only work on very specific teams, but enough people out there use these pokemon that it would be frankly a little unfair not have them be avaliable to draft.
Here's two ways one could change the lists to include the more popular NU pokemon:
1. Just add ten to fifteen NU pokemon to the UU pool - probably based on what the more popular NU pokemon are. This may make the pool size unbalanced; the number of "common" pokemon drawn per pack might need to increase (to, say, 2:3:6 in total, now leaving three unpicked pokemon after all the drafting is completed).
2. Using popularity instead of tiers to determine pool placement. For example, the 25 most popular pokemon used in standard for the previous month become "rare", the next 30 become "uncommon", and the next 50 or so are the "commons". This keeps the "rare" and "uncommon" lists essentially the same as they currently are, save for opening up a few UU / NU pokemon to become "uncommons". The "common" list would now be a mix of the better UU and NU pokemon.
Either way, I am very interested in this format and would love to play a game of it sometime!
Popularity is used to divide Pokemon into groups. The Top group (rares) are the top 28 of OU, while the Mid group (uncommons) are the bottom of OU and BL. The numbers I used were based on the Zendikar ratio of Rares, Uncommons, and Commons.
I had thought about this and your first idea was what I had thought of doing to allow NUs. I do, however, like your second solution a lot better. The problem is finding an appropriate cutoff for usage. I figured a good number would be 125 since there are 249 cards in Zendikar (round up to 250, divide by 2). It would also allow a few more Pokemon in the pools (the pools are currently made up of 28 Top + 24 Mid + 57 Low = 109 Total).
With the December statistics out, I'm going to be updating the lists on the OP. I really like Kyre's idea for the list divisions, though. It makes it easier to update lists and I think it would be more accurate.
I participated in the draft yesterday and just want to say it is a lot of fun. The coolest thing is using sets you have never used before, trying to counter the other guys team. For example I knew I was playing a rain dance team who had no counters to sleep so I made my lead hypnosis crobat instead of taunt crobat, and had scarf celebi to revenge kill his annoying swift swimmers (he had kingdra and kabutops). Also weather teams are more common then I thought they would be, because in the first round I also faced a hail team.
First post updated with Kyre's method of generating packs, which I've dubbed the "Usage Method." I will update the old method (I've called it the "Tier Method") in the near future with the December statistics.
I used MtG rarities proportionally to make the new lists. I feel a little uneasy about them, though. For example, opening a pack to find that Electivire is one of your Tops, while the next guy gets Salamence would be a bit disappointing. I suppose that this type of luck is inherently a part of the format, but still, it seems to be a bit worsened with this type of separation.
After tonight's testing, we've determined that we will be using these new lists and we will be doing them in a 3:3:4 ratio. Additionally, I've reopened #pokedraft, if anyone is interested in joining.
I used MtG rarities proportionally to make the new lists. I feel a little uneasy about them, though. For example, opening a pack to find that Electivire is one of your Tops, while the next guy gets Salamence would be a bit disappointing. I suppose that this type of luck is inherently a part of the format, but still, it seems to be a bit worsened with this type of separation.
After tonight's testing, we've determined that we will be using these new lists and we will be doing them in a 3:3:4 ratio. Additionally, I've reopened #pokedraft, if anyone is interested in joining.
Tonights draft was easily the most succesful draft. The participants were reyscarface, towelie, singhy (doesn't have an account on Smogon), The Chaser, reachzero, Class, bad ass, and yankees123. The Chaser won this draft.
One issue that has arisen is whether or not to include a trade phase. We'd like to hear what those who have participated in a Draft think about the presence of a trade phase.
One issue that has arisen is whether or not to include a trade phase. We'd like to hear what those who have participated in a Draft think about the presence of a trade phase.
Any way I could join the next one?
Yeah I had a fun time and I'm pretty sure everyone else did too!
To add on to DJX's report about tonight, here are a few notable boxes.
The_Chaser (1st place) = Jolteon, Ambipom, Celebi, Blaziken, Latias, Registeel, Mamoswine, Electivire
Class (2nd place) = Gyarados Umbreon Sceptile Dugtrio Snorlax Gengar Tentacruel Jumpluff (probably the MVP)
reachzero (he hacked his picks; seriously, they was loaded) = Kingdra Roserade Suicune Claydol Empoleon Clefable Salamence Mismagius
The_Chaser (1st place) = Jolteon, Ambipom, Celebi, Blaziken, Latias, Registeel, Mamoswine, Electivire
Class (2nd place) = Gyarados Umbreon Sceptile Dugtrio Snorlax Gengar Tentacruel Jumpluff (probably the MVP)
reachzero (he hacked his picks; seriously, they was loaded) = Kingdra Roserade Suicune Claydol Empoleon Clefable Salamence Mismagius
Thanks guys.
We have them almost every night. Look for either The Reaver or I on Shoddy around 8 PM EST and we'll tell you what to do. If you have access to IRC, just go to #pokedraft. I'm not sure if there will be a draft tomorrow as neither reaver or I are able to host. Look for an update here though.
From the draft I've participated in, and the tournament I'm hosting, a trade phase almost seems useless. Trading basically defeats a concept. The concept is to use available Pokemon to you through the draft to come up with a team and win. Thinking ahead is an easy way to advance yourself toward the win, while trading almost makes this too easy. Basically an opponent could not have any idea what you have in mind and then you offer what appears to be a good trade, which really just makes your team ridiculously awesome. Trading makes it too easy to establish a well-built team, I guess is what I'm trying to say. By drafting you're forced to make a well-built team from whatever resources you have, not with the ones others have as well. I just find it useless and making it easier than it should be.
I definitely support what you're saying, and I think this wraps up basically why we shouldn't have a trade phase. If someone could post why one is useful, please do.
We will probably be using IRC as our primary means of communication in the draft from this point forward. IRC is a lot less laggy and it's easier to set up several channels for multiple pools. It also allows us to moderate the chats.
Therefore, if you would like to participate in future drafts, come to #pokedraft on SynIRC. Do NOT expect us to come to the Smogon University server unless we are short by a couple of people and we grab you from the main chat.
Finally, to clear up a bit of confusion I think I worded the "update" in the OP wrong. What I meant to say is that drafts are only guaranteed to happen on Saturday nights, but they may or may not happen on any other night. I called them "official tournaments" for lack of a better phrase, but I didn't mean that these would be "official" in that they would count towards a "rating" or "cumulative points" or anything of the sort.
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