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Pokemon FireRed and LeafGreen In-Game Tiers (revamp)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Texas Cloverleaf, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    So the article on-site is currently very lacking in content so I'm going to bump that quality up with the help of Orange Islands.

    Introduction

    The best Pokemon is one that is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and loses only 1 HP when damaged. It also learns every HM, heals itself automatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best.

    The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run-through of the game. Those will be put in the Top tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in the Bottom tier. Pokemon that are neither efficient nor inefficient—for example, Pokemon who have an initial downside but can eventually perform as well as High-tiered ones—are put in the Middle tier.

    Pokemon are graded based on five factors: availability, raw stats, movepool, typing, and match-ups against major in-game opponents. Availability is a measure of how easy it is to obtain the Pokemon, and it ranges from very low (gift Pokemon) to very high (common "tall-grass" Pokemon). It also takes into account the part of the game at which you are able to get the Pokemon. For example, a Pokemon could be extremely good, but he would be worthless if you get him after every major battle. Raw stats affect the Pokemon's ability to KO others and to take hits in-game. Obviously, you want Pokemon with great stats, since that means they can easily KO many other Pokemon without fainting, or at least taking repeated trips to a Pokemon Center.

    A Pokemon's movepool is the variety of attacks the Pokemon learns. Does he need a lot of TMs to have a good moveset? Can he learn a lot of HMs to help you navigate in the overworld? Does he learn powerful attacks of his own type? Having good TM compatibility and level-up moves is of great importance.

    Typing and match-ups go hand in hand. The optimal typing gives a Pokemon both STAB on useful attack types and leaves it with little to no weaknesses. If a Pokemon has a dual typing, it should complement him both important to offensively and defensively. Typing also determines the major battles in which a Pokemon will be useful. (Major battles can range from Gym Leaders battles to Rival battles.) Therefore, it is use Pokemon with good type combinations that give them an advantage in most of the game's major battles.

    Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded while manipulating luck through resets; these aim for the absolute fastest on-screen time, but the real time spent on them is much greater. If you want to play through the game in a relatively low time frame, then you’re looking for an efficient run.

    A team is actually the most efficient (in terms of utility per team member) if it only consists of a single member. This tier list will assume a team size of around three or four Pokemon, however, as otherwise the list would be extremely centralized around starters and early-game Pokemon—everything else wouldn't be worth the effort.

    Top Tier (open)

    None yet!


    High Tier (open)

    None yet!


    Middle Tier (open)

    None yet!


    Low Tier (open)

    None yet!


    Bottom Tier (open)

    None yet!


    The list of Pokemon we will be tiering are as follows:
    Show Hide

    Abra
    Articuno
    Bulbasaur
    Charmander
    Clefairy
    Cubone
    Diglett
    Hitmonlee
    Jynx
    Lapras
    Machop
    Mankey
    Nidoran-M
    Snorlax
    Staryu
    Squirtle
    Eevee-->Vaporeon
    Zapdos

    Bellsprout
    Doduo
    Electabuzz
    Exeggcute
    Geodude
    Growlithe
    Hitmonchan
    Jolteon
    Magnemite
    Mr. Mime
    Nidoran-F
    Oddish
    Pikachu
    Slowpoke
    Spearow
    Tentacool
    Voltorb

    Caterpie
    Drowzee
    Eevee-Flareon
    Grimer
    Horsea
    Jigglypuff
    Kangaskhan
    Koffing
    Lickitung
    Magikarp
    Magmar
    Meowth
    Moltres
    Paras
    Pidgey
    Pinsir
    Poliwag
    Ponyta
    Psyduck
    Rattata
    Rhyhorn
    Sandshrew
    Scyther
    Seel
    Shellder
    Tauros
    Venonat
    Vulpix

    Aerodactyl
    Chansey
    Ditto
    Dratini
    Ekans
    Farfetch'd
    Gastly
    Goldeen
    Kabuto
    Krabby
    Omanyte
    Onix
    Porygon
    Tangela
    Weedle
    Zubat

    Mewtwo


    The format you will use for submitting Pokemon is as follows:

    Name: - Tier
    Availability: Discuss when this Pokemon appears in a few sentences. Which gyms does it comes between? Does it come at a level where it can quickly compete with you team? How effectively can it catch up based on where it can train shortly after appearing?
    Stats: Discuss this Pokemon's stats in a few sentences. Where does this Pokemon excel? Is it a Godly sweeper? A gifted wall? A strong wallbreaker? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
    Typing: Discuss this Pokemon's typing in a sentence or two. How effective are its STABs at defeating opponents? Is it vulnerable to many types of attacks from opponents?
    Movepool: Describe this Pokemon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options through level up? Is it over reliant on TMs to function? Does it have access to useful HMs to help you traverse the region?
    Major Battles: Break down the Pokemon's performance against the major opponents in the game. Discuss how well they can deal with each opponent in a few sentences. The major opponents one should cover are: Brock, Misty, Lt. Surge, Erika, Koga, Sabrina, Blaine, Giovanni, Rival Battle Pre-E4, Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha, Lance, Champion Rival. It is not necessary to mention any major battle prior to the Pokemon's appearance.
    Additional Comments: Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here.

    Please write somewhat professionally (I saw a LOLOLOL in one of the entries).

    Some guidelines we picked up along the way:
    - No glitches allowed.
    - No trading in Pokemon from other games. Back and forth to evolve Graveler, Kadabra, Haunter and Machoke can be considered, but is not assumed.
    - Have Fun!

    Feel free to dispute and discuss other users submissions, but please, no flaming.
  2. Espeon65

    Espeon65

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    I would love to help with this project! I have a couple other things keeping me busy (Gauntlet + Scramble in sig, and dppt tiers), so i will likely not do much for at least a few weeks, maybe a month.
  3. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I'm currently doing a Leaf Green run so far with Bulbasaur as my starter. When I finsh mt run, I'll do some write ups.
  4. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
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    Mankey - High Tier
    Availability: Mankey can be caught on Route 22 before you even set foot in Viridian Forest. It is also found on routes 3, 4, and 23, as well as certain floors of Rock Tunnel. Primeape is found on Route 23 and in Victory Road and Cerulean Cave.
    Stats: High Attack, relatively high Speed, poor everything else. Nice for smacking things around though, but it's rather frail.
    Typing: Fighting is a mixed blessing, helping against Brock, Loreli and most of the caves, but faltering against the many Poison-, Flying-, and Psychic-types in the game. Fighting is a great STAB to have, at least, hitting the many Normal-types in the game.
    Movepool: Move tutors and level-up moves will be all it needs, in addition to the Dig TM and perhaps Brick Break. Heck, the Mega Kick tutor will see Mankey through everything except Misty's Starmie for a while. You can also teach it Overheat, although that won't carry you too far. Its biggest problem is missing, however.
    Recommended final moveset: Cross Chop/Brick Break, Mega Kick, Rock Slide, Dig/Overheat
    Major Battles:
    Brock: Arguably better that Squirtle and Bulbasaur here. Resists Rock and hits hard with Low Kick.
    Misty: Can whack Staryu with Karate Chop or Mega Kick, but not recommended against Starmie.
    Lt. Surge: Primeape admittedly doesn't do fantastic here, but at the same time it doesn't hurt either.
    Erika: Can't really do much, since most of the Pokemon either resist Fighting or are bulky (Tangela).
    Koga: Not getting through here, even with the Dig TM.
    Sabrina: Not fast enough here.
    Blaine: Intimidate from Arcanine is mean, but Rock Slide does a number to all of the Pokemon here.
    Giovanni: Dig TM really helps here, getting you through the Nidos a bit better, and Cross Chop takes out the others.
    Rival Battle Pre-E4: Unfortunately, you'll need massive grinding to do much here except against Rhyhorn.
    Lorelei: Cross Chop and Rock Slide, although misshax is fatal and Lapras can take a hit or two.
    Bruno: Helps against Onix, not great but not bad either.
    Agatha: Don't use it here.
    Lance: If you can outspeed things, Rock Slide can dish out some pain.
    Champion Rival: See the Pre-E4 battle.
    Additional Comments: From the looks of the major battles, it might seem like Mankey/Primeape isn't that good, but it's actually incredibly useful for its coverage and Speed, coming in and killing something before switching back out again. It has its advantages over Dugtrio with its bigger base Attack and slightly more varied movepool.
  5. Garud

    Garud

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    I will write up Abra when I get home
  6. Nope

    Nope

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    Pikachu- High Tier
    Availability- Pretty rare in Viridian Forest, but plentiful in the Power Plant later on in the game.
    Stats- Base stats of 90 in attack and special attack allow for it to make a dent with any attack. 100 speed lets this thing hit fast and hard coping for its poor HP and defense. 80 special defense works out nicely too, as a Raichu that is.
    Typing- Electric. Useful at almost every single point in the game. Only weak to ground attacks, which can be avoided with a flying type. Having an electric type makes much of the game easy from beginning to end with so many water and flying types around.
    Movepool- Let's just start with learning thunderbolt at level 26. Early and powerful, which is perfect. It learns thunderwave naturally at level 8 which helps for battle and catching wilds. Dig and brick break counter all the rock/ground foes that fight against it.
    Reccomended final moveset- Thunderbolt, Thunderwave, Strength/Dig, Brick Break
    Major Battles:
    Rival 1-
    Takes down Pidgey easy, and Squirtle if you chose Charmander. Forced into quick attack by Bulbasaur, but can T-Wave it so problem solved.
    Brock- Not useful here, at all.
    Misty- Thundershock will rip her team apart. Thunderwave helps to slow down Starmie if it is a problem, but it should go down fast.
    Lt. Surge- Can resist electric attacks and learns dig, so this battle is relatively easy.
    Erika- Pikachu is not a fan of grass, as I've mentioned repeatedly with the rival. But you can by a thunderstone at the Dept. store, and you still have powerful neutral moves, so it can be done.
    Koga- Dig won't work on Weezing or Koffing, but these two have pitiful S.Defenses, so STAB Thunderbolt will hurt it, is very useful. Dig can hurt Muk, but Muk's pretty bulky, so a T-Wave can help. Strength will also work, but if you choose Strength over Dig, do it after this battle.
    Sabrina- With Brick Break, Thunderwave, and good special bulk, Mr. Mime will be at a large disadvantage against you. T-Wave can slow down Alakazam and Strength or Dig will both hurt it (strength is better here).
    Blaine- If you have Dig, then feel free to go for it after T-Waving. TBolt is neutral to him and fire is neutral to you, so no big deal here.
    Giovanni- Just do whatever you did against him the last few times, and it should work out without Raichu.
    Lorelei- This is literally the place where Raichu shines brightest. Everything here is weak to TBolt! The only exception is Jynx who can Lovely Kiss you, so beware that, but everything else is laughably easy
    Bruno- Just better not to get involved.
    Agatha- TWave can slow down her pesky Gengars, TBolt ignores Arbok's intimidate, and Golbat is flying, so there is use here.
    Lance- TWave can cripple Dragonite to let your Ice attacker wreck him (if you brought one). TBolt oncwe again wrecks Gyarados. Aerodactyl is tricky though. If your underleveled, then he will outspeed you and Hyper Beam will crush you, so try to use something bulkier instead, or make it Hyperbeam ko something else and TWave it to stop his rampage.
    Rival Champ- Pidgeot? Gone! Blastoise/Gyarados? Easy! Alakazam? TWave, physical attack, and laughter at the following ko. Charizard? What a joke! If you chose Bulbasaur, then he has three guys weak to electric type attacks, and one of which with a quadruple weakness. Too easy, assuming you don't screw up against one of his other guys.
    Additional Comments- Rare early in the game, and only common late in the game keep it out of top tier. Despite this, its ability to provide coverage against almost every boss except Brock and Giovanni keep it in high tier. Pairs well with all three starters. Provides perfect coverage with a flying and water type on your team.
  7. Garud

    Garud

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    Have you actually played with Pikachu before, or are you just guessing?

    Pikachu runs into a lot of problems, and here's why. You get it early on, but it's practically useless against Brock (unless you just want it to growl Onix or Geodude 6 times and then die). This means that it's useless against the first Gym. You then run into a whole bunch of trainers that use Ground and Grass types, so you have to grind in the wild for Pikachu to keep up. You may have a type advantage against Misty, but you don't resist her Bubblebeam which wrecks you. Sure, you may have Thunderbolt at this point, but that takes grinding against low-level wild Pokemon and that's really inefficient. You can't really grind against the higher ones because they all get type advantages. Further on it gets worse, as both Surge and Erika really do serious damage to Pikachu. And guess what? you run into more Grass and Ground trainers along the way. He doesn't do too badly against Koga, assuming he is appropriately leveled, which is unlikely. But that's where his usefulness ends, because you can surf to the Power Plant to get either a level 40+ Electrode, or a level 50 Zapdos, both who are much more useful. In addition, Pokemon like Jolteon and Magnemite who are much more useful and are also available at much more reasonable levels.

    Another thing I'd like to point out is that Gary's Alakazam has Synchronize, meaning Raichu will become paralyzed in return. Even assuming he only had Inner Focus, you would still have to eat a Psychic coming off a base 125 Special Attack just to do the move. Raichu is much slower and has a paltry special defense stat. Agatha also poses some serious problems as Haunter and Gengar are quick as anything and will status you to hell and back before you can move.

    Pikachu also comes into a lot of problems due to the way it evolves. It must either wait to level 41 to evolve to get it's best move in Thunder, or evolve early with a poor moveset and always have a shallow movepool, even with TM support. Pikachu also lacks decent availability, as it is a rare find in Viridian Forrest, comes at a paltry level 3 and has a difficult time finding it's stride. Pikachu is definitely low tier, it's outclassed, it's inefficient and while it can be useful at times, it just doesn't seem worth the effort in the long run.
  8. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    from what i know pikachu's really only useful against zubat because he can thundershock them early on, but you honestly only have problems with zubat if you're using bulbasaur. in fact, even nidoran(m) destroys it with horn attack pretty well. pika's useful against misty because she doesn't have eternal-spam full heal anymore so starmie's essentially down for the count once paralysed (of course recover and potions make it a bitch). tbolt pika is lol against misty anyway because it's L24(or 26? idk) and Starmie's only L18. he lacks type advantage post-misty, resulting in noticeable lack of offense (you really only see him smashing zubats, and that role can probably be filled by some random shit like thrash nidoking which is fucking everywhere and also is conveniently immune to random poison stings)

    electric types are pretty bad once misty is over: surge, erika and giovanni give it hell while it doesn't particularly perform against the others (you arguably want type advantage against blaine, which you can get from the gazillion water types just outside cinnabar, and koga is kind of just lol since you already have surf)

    jolteon is honestly better because it at least has an immunity to switch into and better speed too. really if pikachu got surf i'd say it's at least mid

    dig no longer turns whatever that learns it into god, what with 60 power and not. stab thunderbolt does better damage than SE dig.

    i don't think raichu really performs great against lorelei, i can see cloyster and slowbro dying easily but i can't see that for lapras and dewgong. raichu doesn't particularly shine in the E4 and requires TWave to really do anything, which is kinda annoying since you can just destroy the guy outright with something else.

    basically, pikachu is not high tier material.
    and the only electric type honestly deserving of anything above mid is zapdos
  9. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Garud, Misty has Water Pulse in the remake, not BubbleBeam. But other than that, I'd agree with you.
  10. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Water Pulse and it's 30% confusion rate, the person that put the confusionhax effect should exiliate Earth.

    If I had time and motivation I'd like to test Jolteon. Far far time ago, I read a guy who said it's amazing in-game with only Thunderbolt spam.

    However, MT Thunderbolt is sold in Game Corner with 4000 coins(80 000 of money), a bit expensive at cost of being infinite-obtainable.
  11. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

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    Well, 80,000 p is fairly small as far as costs go, at least. It's no dp game corner x_x
  12. Lestersmodge

    Lestersmodge

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    I used jolteon in my most recent fire red run and it really does just rape everything with thunderbolt. Just as long as you have something to take care of ground types you can destroy everything in your way. I think you can get eevee at around lvl 28, and you can by a thunderstone right away, or if you're really impatient you can by the thunderbolt tm at the game corner.
  13. JSND

    JSND

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    How about VS Seeker usage ? Something i want to note is how even before E4, you have the brilliant VS Seeker spot that is Pallet Town South Surf Area fisherman with one Goldeen and 3 Seaking and Double Battle against Starmie and one other mon i forgot
  14. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    doesn't vs seeker count as grinding... i.e. inefficient for quick runs
  15. Carl

    Carl or Varl
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    I just played through the game and Jolteon was honestly kind of annoying. Getting the coins for Thunderbolt is extremely annoying and, IMO, not really the most efficient use of time. That said, I opted to use the Shock Wave TM on Jolteon instead and while it wasn't terrible, 60 BP STAB did miss out on some crucial 1H or 2HKOs. Outside of electric moves, everything it learns uses the physical attack stat so that's annoying and forces it out against any grass, electric, or ground pokemon. While this is easily worked around, it's not ideal.

    A pokemon that was not as annoying, but still flawed, was Starmie. There's a few downsides to it... One is that you need a Super Rod and you get it in the range of levels 15-25. By then my other pokemon were low to mid 30's. Also factor in that it has two abilities, one that is really shitty IMO and one that is decent in-game but not overly useful, so you may spend extra time catching the right one. The other is that its moves need to be taught, too... draining the Psychic TM and begging for the investment into Ice Beam (which, again, Gamecorner is not very efficient). Thunderbolt would also be nice but I think it's actually not necessary as Surf/Ice Beam/Psychic is pretty solid coverage (that E4 Slowbro and Gyarados are the only two I'd really need Tbolt for). The upside is good, though, as Starmie does well against Koga, Blaine, Giovanni and good portion of all the pokemon featured in the Elite 4 thanks to an excellent movepool. That's pretty much every major battle after removing Snorlax.
  16. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I'm doing a run with Venusaur/Gyarados/Clefable/Nientails/Dodrio/Jolteon and Venusaur isnt as great as he is in RBY, no more critical hit Razor Leaf spam. :/
  17. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    Snorlax (High Tier)

    Availability: Mid-Game. Snorlax comes at an opportune time after beating Team Rocket at both the Celadon Game Corner and the Lavender Tower, so you can actually catch Snorlax right before you face the fourth gym (Erika). Snorlax doesn't struggle against this gym and can be trained, and actually comes at Lv. 30 so he typically matches your team's levels.

    Stats: Above Average. Snorlax has massive HP, great Attack, and great Special Defense. In fact, one of the only reasons he shouldn't be in Top Tier is due to his lackluster Speed and his poor Defense, which along with being a Normal type, forces him to have terrible resistance against common physical types such as Ground and Fighting.

    Movepool: Vast. Snorlax's Normal typing actually gives him some advantages, though, as his movepool is as vast as he is fat. He learns nice Physical moves such as Body Slam, Earthquake, and Rock Slide, and Special moves such as Thunder, Fire Blast, Blizzard, and Surf. He can function well with a mixed moveset, and can even be your effective Surfer if you don't have a good Water-type. Snorlax also learns some nice status moves like Rest and Yawn, and all you need to do is carry around some Awakening to use Rest to its fullest extent. Some nice level up moves include Body Slam, Rest, and Snore, which come either with Snorlax or in Body Slam's case, three levels after you catch him.

    Major Battles:
    Pewter Gym: Not present.
    Cerulean Gym: Not present.
    Vermillion Gym: Not present.
    Celadon Gym: Having Rest, Snore, and a high Special Defense really helps out against Erika's Grass type statusers goes a long way. He can single-handedly take down the entirety of the gym.
    Fuschia Gym: He doesn't fare as well here, due to Poison being physical, but having Immunity can be very helpful against Toxic and Sludge, and I've even had Snorlax take a Selfdestruct from one of the Koffing before.
    Saffron Gym: This is the gym he was made for. Psychic type is Special, and Psychic type Pokémon don't like taking Body Slams to their weak Physical side. He should be able to solo this gym as well as he did Erika's, maybe even better.
    Cinnabar Gym: He can fare reasonably well here. Rapidash and Arcanine can use strong Physical attacks, but their Fire STABs are almost useless against Snorlax. He can also use Earthquake/Surf on them, which is helpful.
    Viridian Gym: He's a bit of an iffy when it comes to this gym. Sure, Earthquake or Surf are great moves to use against Ground and Rock types, and even Body Slam can be used against Dugtrio. But they have strong Physical attacks, which hampers Snorlax's potential.
    Lorelei: He can really clean up here. None of her Pokémon resist his STAB Body Slam, and all of her Pokémon rely on strong Special attacks, which Snorlax can sponge and Rest off.
    Bruno: Eh. Try not to use Snorlax against Bruno. The only Pokémon he'll be taking down would be the two Onix with Surf.
    Agatha: Snorlax fares well against Gengar, and can do alright against other Pokémon, similar to Koga. However, I would recommend using other Pokémon, as these Pokémon have strong Poison-type STAB (which is sad, considering she should be a Ghost-type Trainer).
    Lance: This could swing both ways. Aerodactyl and Gyarados fare well against Snorlax unless you used an Electric TM on him, but his other Dragons use Special moves, which Snorlax can sponge.
    Rival: Certain Pokémon get stomped easily. These Pokémon are: Venusaur, Blastoise, Charizard, Exeggecutor. His other present a bit of an issue for Snorlax, such as Pidgeot and Rhydon, with their strong Physical moves.

    Additional Comments: Snorlax can be contested for Top Tier, although his low Speed and Defense hold him back. He requires the use of some TMs, although they aren't TOO essential, as Surf gives him good coverage. He tends to sweep or be swept, though, and is hard to level up due to being slow and requiring a lot of experience gain, but nothing some good grinding can do.

    EDIT 1: Fixed the lack of Agatha.
  18. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    You forgot Agatha.
  19. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    (double post for Ditto)

    Ditto (Bottom Tier)

    Availability: Mid-Game. Ditto comes fairly mid-game, around the time that you get the Pokéflute, but requires Cut in order to reach. He also comes at a lower level than the rest of your team, at Lv. 25. He's in the Medium-Fast experience group, though, so slap an Exp. Share on him and you should be fine.

    Stats: Poor. It's a shame Ditto doesn't copy HP, too. His other stats don't matter after he's Transformed, but until then, base 60 defenses are just plain pitiful. There are times he may not even get to Transform.

    Movepool: Unlimited. Well, really just Transform, but that counts for something, right? If he can take the hit, he can have any move in the entire game.

    Major Battles: You should not use Ditto in any major battles. If you decide to, though, just Transform and then look up the in-game analysis of the Pokémon he just Transformed into.

    Additional Comments: Unless you are looking for a fun, gimmicky way to troll your friends, try to avoid Ditto at all costs. In-game Trainers won't laugh like the Trainers in real life, those soulless freaks. Ditto is good for breeding, though, so still catch him. Just don't use him in-battle. Perhaps he'll get to shine in-game in some future generation with Imposter, but definitely not here.

    With the OP's blessing, I could do all of the useless Pokémon, but that'll only be if no one else wants to do them. I really wanted to do Ditto, though, sorry for the double post (if you want to know why, just check my profile picture).
  20. sfgiantsfanmike

    sfgiantsfanmike

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    Nidoqueen-High Tier

    Availability: Early game, available right after first gym on Route 3; however, it's 14% encounter in LeafGreen but only 1% in Firered. You should have her evolved into Nidorina before Cerulean and when you do you can use the Moon Stone you found in Mount Moon to get her to her final form before the second gym.

    Stats: Above Average. No standout stat but she has well rounded stats. Speed may be a problem late game but she has enough where it should only be a problem against naturally very fast pokemon

    Typing: Poison/Ground. Actually not a horrible combination. It leaves her with 5 weaknesses if I remember correctly but also several immunity's and resistances that come in handy, most noteably a resistance to fighting and immunity's to all electric attacks and the poison status.

    Movepool: Vast. She learns more TM/HM moves than she doesn't learn by a lot and gets a few key moves, most notably Body Slam at level 22 or 23. She has a higher Attack than Special Attack but learns more damaging Special Attacks. I suggest a final move list something like: Surf/Earthquake/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam. Feel free to play around with it, she has many combinations.

    Major Battles:
    *Vs Brock: Not available yet. Game Freak trolled me on this one, as the Nido's were my go to Brock killers in R/B/Y but whatever.

    *Vs Misty: Disadvantage. She can lay waste to everything around Cerulean by the mere fact that she's fully evolved at this point, or can/should be, so even with a type disadvantage she can merely outs peed and overpower most opponents. Not so with Misty, though, as her Starmie is fully evolved and will out speed and hits pretty hard.

    *Vs Lt. Surge: Advantage. Surge and company tend to have special attacking electric types that are pushovers on the physical side. Nidoqueen is immune to their primary attacks and if you taught her Dig she has a STAB super effective move to utilize against them. But even with just Body Slam, and if you used her in the SS Anne she more likely will be that level, that should do the trick very well.

    *Vs Erica: Neutral. Her type combo removes her weakness to grass but she doesn't necessarily have an advantage with her offensive typing, either. Still can do a great deal of damage here but other 'mon can do better.

    Vs. Koga: Advantage. Okay, she has somewhat of an advantage here in the 'poison' gym; however, you have to watch out for those Hypno's (Drowzee's should get OHKO'd without a chance to damage in return). She's immune to being poisoned, which is great in this gym, and can wield Dig against any of the grounded poison types. Against Koga himself I believe she only has the clear cut advantage against Muk, as Weezing and Koffing levitate, but she still has the power to plow through most of them.

    *Vs Sabrina: Disadvantage. She can actually hold her own in the gym due to the Gastly and Haunter population but Sabrina owns her.

    *Vs Karate King: Advantage. Not really a huge battle story line wise but she can take out her frustration about Sabrina owning her here and claim your 'Hitmon' of choice.

    *Vs Blaine: Advantage. She should walk through the gym trainers like nothing, unless you really want to skip the trainers by answering the questions which makes that point moot. Blaine is a match up of power vs power: She has the offensive advantage but no resistance to the powerful fire attacks being launched her way. If she's leveled on par she should have little trouble barring crits.

    *Vs Giovanni: Advantage. Lots of rock, ground and fighting types in this gym, she should either resist their damage and make short work of them or out speed and be taking advantage of the 2/4x weakness to water on lots of those pokemon. Or possibly taking advantage on the other end with EQ (is it available by then?) or dig.

    * Vs Lorelei: Disadvantage. Even if you gave it Thunderbolt like I suggested above it will still struggle here. It may be able to out speed and OHKO some of those 'mon but still not a good idea to have her out there with her weakness to water/ice.

    * Vs Bruno: Advantage. He mainly uses fighting types, with a few Onix sprinkled in the first time around, so she has a defensive advantage here and should be able to handle him with no problem.

    *Vs Agatha: Neutral. If she had gravity she runs through this team like a hot knife through butter but she still has a defensive advantage against all those poison types. Still, other 'mon can get through her faster and with less hassle.

    *Vs Lance: Neutral. This could be an advantage if you taught her Ice Beam. She can definitely hold her own and more here, fearing only the Dragonite. This one is all about whether or not you invested the TM in her.

    *Vs Blue: Neutral? From the third meeting until before Lance she should handle most of his pokemon with ease, especially that third meeting when he doesn't have any fully evolved 'mon. The Championship match? The only 2 pokemon that will cause problems should be Alakazam and Exxegutter, with Blastoise being a potential problem. Gyarados presents a defensive disadvantage that you can overcome with the right move set, as his Special Attack is rather... weak but is best left to another 'mon.

    Additional Comments: All in all I think the Queen is one of the best for a playthrough. She does have her short comings, from not being available as easily early in Firered to 2 gyms posing problems for her and being reliant on TM/HM support but she more than makes up for it if you invest in her.
  21. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Name: Gyarados - High Tier
    Availability: At the Pokemon Center before Mt. Moon, so Early Game. Mid-game you get the Super Rod, which lets you capture Gyarados straight away.
    Stats: As a Magikarp, his only decent stat is his Speed. Gyarados on the other hand has awesome stats. Great Attack, Good Speed, and decent bulk which can be backed through Intimidate. Its Special Attack leaves something to be desired, but its STAB Water attacks are still strong.
    Typing: Water/Flying. This give Gyarados a total of 6 resistances (Fire, Steel, Bug, Fighting, Water and Ground), but also a weakness to Rock and a big weakness to Electricity. Most Rock types won't enjoy taking a STAB Water Move, but its recommended Gyarados has a partner that can take out Electric types.
    Movepool: Gyarados learns Dragon Rage, Dragon Dance, Hydro Pump through level-up. Notable TM's it learns are Water Pulse, Earthquake, Return, and Surf. It also learns Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower, but his mediocre Special Attack means you are better off giving those TM's to other Pokemon. Also, Gyarados can learn Thunder Wave via move tutor.
    Major Battles:
    (Bold are good match ups, underlined are bad match ups)
    Misty - Chances are you wont have Gyarados unless you do some extra grinding, but Gyarados can beat Misty as long as she doesn't get Water Pulse confusion hax.
    LT Surge - Electric moves are common in this gym and they leave a big dent into Gyarados.
    Erika - Gyarados is one of the few Water types in this game that is actually neutral to Grass, but he does not enjoy taking a status move.
    Koga - Koffing/Weezing don't enjoy taking Surfs, where as Muk can be taken down by strong Physical Moves.
    Fighting Dojo - Gyarados resists Fighting and has Intimidate, so this is a good gym to train him.
    Sabrina - Gyarados has naturally high Special Defense and can take Sabrina's Special Moves, and Gyarados High Attack stats preys on her Physically Frail Pokemon.
    Blaine - Gyarados resists Fire, and even with 60 Base Special Attack a STAB Super Effective Surf still does a lot to his team.
    Giovanni - Same as the Blaine entry, except replace the word Fire with Ground.
    Lorelei - Gyarados can set up DD on Dewgong, but keep note her Slowbro and Cloyster have good Physical Bulk.
    Bruno - You can try to set up DD on his Pokemon, but keep in mind his Rock Tombs will cancel out the Speed Boost. On a flip side, his Rock Tombs have a high chance to miss. Surf takes care of Onix where a boosted strong Physical move can take his Fighting types on.
    Agatha - Her Ghosts resist your entire Physical movepool meaning you have to rely on Surf to fight them, while her Pokemon can wear you down fast.
    Lance - His Gyarados has Intimidate, which means you'll need to get more DD's in than usual. On the other hand his Gyarados doesn't really have anything to harm you except for Hyper Beam, which you'll Intimidate anyway. So you can set up on his Gyarados. His Aerodactyl actually resists both Normal moves and Earthquake, but Aerodactyl's defenses are not that great, so with DD boosts you can take it out.
    Gary - Not really a good idea to set up when his Pidgeot has FeatherDance, Whirlwind, and Sand Attack. But Gyarados can handle Rhydon, Alakazam, and his Fire Pokemon.
    Additional Comments: Gyarados is also a different experience to using most Water Pokemon, as it relies more on Physical attacking rather than relying on STAB + Ice Beam. Its recommended to wait til Super Rod to catch Gyarados, so you don't have to deal with the burden of raising a Magikarp. In addition, Gyarados doesn't really start to shine until the 5th gym anyway, so waiting a while to get him is better.
  22. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    337
    Pikachu most certainly isn't low tier. A 5% encounter rate isn't a threat to efficiency by any means when one Pokemon out of 20 you meet is a Pikachu, and when you have him for the rest of the game afterwards.

    Indeed, he's not beating Starmie on his own, but he could paralyse it and weaken it a little with Thundershock for others to take the KO. Raichu's also fairly competent physically, namely when it comes to Brick Breaking normal-types.

    Also, Gyarados can be caught with a Good Rod, so I'm willing to argue Mid -> High.
  23. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,635
    Gyarados should be high imo: it has decent HM slave utility in the very least. You need to clear Pokemon Tower to get him (Super Rod is on Route 12...Snorlax >_>") but chances are you can get him at a good level (something like LV23 or so). With Thrash, he makes a good choice for most things you fight at that point(rockets). You honestly shouldn't bother with Magikarp since it's not only a pain, you also can't get Thrash onto Gyara. When you get Gyarados you should also be able to go down to Fuchsia and nab Surf, giving him a reliable STAB. Intimidate makes him bulky on both sides of the spectrum and the attack drop can also help another teammate get in safely. His typing is great: you really only need to watch out for Electric and Rock, which aren't very common in the game.

    @Lucchini: it's a Super Rod, but it doesn't matter since both come at the same time...
  24. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Alright, edited Gyarados from Mid to High. Rock isnt too big of an issue for him, as he has Intimidate, and Surf hits Rock types for SE damage anyway. But yeah, I'd recommend a Grass or Ground type partner for the Electric Pokemon.

    Edit: I don't think Pikachu is low tier either, more Mid Tier imo. Jolteon may be faster and has a powerful Thunderbolt, but Raichu has better Attack which actually makes its physical moves viable. Brick Break and Dig add for coverage.
  25. Advancer

    Advancer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    76
    A few months ago I started a playthrough of LeafGreen with Charmander, here are my thoughts on it.

    Charmander - High Tier

    Availability: Starter
    Stats: Charmander's has a reputation as the classic offensive starter: fully evolved, it will have the highest Special Attack and Speed stat of all three starters. Sadly, it is frail, and in the late-game it can be crippled by many attacks.
    Typing: Fire is not overly useful in the major battles of the early and late game, but it covers almost everything in between. Charizard does gain secondary Flying STAB and one or two extra resistances, but also a weakness to Electric and a double-weakness to Rock type moves.
    Movepool: Charizard's special movepool is unfortunately limited to Fire-type moves and the rather late Dragon Claw (TM02 - Victory Road). It is a little sunnier on the Physical side but as Charizard's Attack stat isn't all that impressive it is best to stick to its STAB Flying attacks and Brick Break (Celadon Store) and save Rock Slide (Tutor - Rock Tunnel) and Earthquake (TM26 from Giovanni) for stronger Pokemon.

    Major Battles:
    Brock: Charmander can learn Metal Claw (at Lv. 13) by the time it reaches this Gym, if it does, it'll be an easier fight. Note that you outspeed both of Brock's Pokemon and his Onix is the only one that knows a Rock-type move.
    Misty: N/A
    Lt. Surge: His Pokemon are faster than Charmeleon and can paralyze you with Static. It can do well against Voltorb and Pikachu, but Raichu does have a rather high Special Defense stat compared to Charmelon, meaning that Charmelon isn't really fit to take on Lt. Surge by itself unless it is taught Dig from Cerulean City.
    Erika: Charmeleon has the type advantage, but it doesn't learn Flamethrower until Lv. 34 - it just means that Charmeleon is more susceptible to Stun Spore and PoisonPowder.
    Koga: All of Koga's Pokemon have fairly weak Special Defense, and you should have Charizard by this point, meaning you can sweep his team with ease.
    Karate King: If you have Charizard its resistance to fighting and access flying-STAB will make it a breeze.
    Silph Co.: Charmeleon/Charizard generally has no trouble against Team Rocket but must look out for the occasional Rhyhorn.
    Sabrina: It can hit Venomoth for SE and can deal good damage to her other Pokemon if it uses its Flying-type STAB (if Reflect is not up, as otherwise Mr. Mime and Alakazam's SpD makes them harder to 2HKO with Flamethrower) but must be careful not to let her Pokemon get any boosts.
    Blaine: Charizard may resist Fire-type attacks but has to resort to its Flying-STAB or tutor moves to hurt Blaine's Pokemon in return.
    Giovanni: It can be good against Gio's Dugtrio and reasonable against Nidoking and Nidoqueen (as it can't be hurt by Earthquake) but it will take a good chunk of damage from Thrash/Body Slam. It should not be used against Rhyhorn, who resists both STABs and can hit back with Rock Blast.
    Elite Four
    Lorelei: As most of Lorelei's Pokemon are part Water-type and carry Water-type moves, Charizard is at a major disadvantage in this fight. It could be used to clean out Jynx, but must be wary of Lovely Kiss and Attract on the switch-in as both of these moves can shut it down.
    Bruno: At first its Flying-type STAB looks promising, but Charizard's weaker Attack stat isn't enough for it to power through the likes of Hitmonchan and Machamp without taking major damage from Rock Tomb. It is best used as a revenge killer.
    Agatha: Charizard's powerful Fire-type attacks can put a huge dent in all of Agatha's Pokemon, but as her Pokemon are faster it is hard to avoid being hit by Confuse Ray or Hypnosis.
    Lance: If taught Dragon Claw, Charizard gains an advantage against Lance's Dragonair and Dragonite where it would otherwise have to rely on weaker Flying STAB. It is outsped by Aerodactyl and should avoid being hit by Hyper Beam from Gyarados and Dragonite.
    Rival/Champion: It can be used against Pidgeot, Alazakam, and Exeggutor, but it must avoid Blastoise (especially if Rain is in play) and it can't really hurt Rhydon or Arcanine unless it has been taught Earthquake.

    Additional Comments: Charizard really is a mixed bag of awesome and f(r)ail. It can hold its own against most trainers and has an even share of advantages and disadvantages in the game's major battles, but those disadvantages are rather big. In my experience it is best used in an offensive core, and appreciates teammates such as Gyarados, Primape, Hitmonlee, Victreebel (LG only), and Magneton or Zapdos.
    The best alternatives for a Fire-type would be Arcanine in FireRed or Ninetales in LeafGreen. Arcanine has better overall stats, Intimidate or Flash Fire, and access to Bite and Extremespeed, but it has issues learning a good fire type move and levels more slowly; Ninetales also has Flash Fire, it learns Will-O-Wisp by level-up, and levels the fastest out of the three lines. Both Arcanine and Ninetales have sparse movepools and weaker SpA compared to Charizard.

    ---
    I also used Mankey, Bellsprout, Diglett/Dugtrio, Mr. Mime, and Snorlax in my playthrough. If I do write another analysis it will probably be for Bellsprout as I used it rather extensively before and after the Elite Four.

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